Team Halls of Fame general discussion thread

[jalbright]

Here's an updated list of those nominated for the second chance elections (I combed the election threads for arguments for those who have yet to be elected). I will list candidates for teams who are still holding elections, but will remove them if the player is elected. All these candidates are considered to have a second. I will add others as they are nominated and seconded, and will remove anyone who has their nomination argument revoked by the argument maker unless someone else wishes to adopt the argument as their own.


Braves
John Clarkson
Billy Hamilton
Harry Wright as a contributor

Brewers
Bud Selig as a contributor

Cardinals
Jesse Haines
Alfred Spink as a contributor

Cubs
George Gore
Billy Herman
King Kelly
Clark Griffith
Johnny Kling
Jimmy Ryan
Hippo Vaughn
Frank Selee as a contributor

Dodgers
Jake Daubert
Burt Hooton
Clem Labine
Ron Perranoski
Johnny Roseboro
Walter O'Malley as a contributor
Jaime Jarrin as a contributor

Indians
Ray Chapman
Wes Ferrell
Mike Garcia
Joe Jackson
Herb Score as a contributor

Mariners
Dave Niehaus as a contributor

Mets
Gary Carter
Ed Kranepool
John Franco
Joan Payson (contributor)
William Shea (contributor)

Orioles
Dave McNally
George Stone
Ray Miller as a contributor
Bill DeWitt as a contributor
Chuck Thompson as a contributor

Phillies
Del Ennis
Dallas Green as a contributor

Pirates
Kent Tekulve
Lloyd Waner
Larry Frattare as a contributor
Denny McKnight as a contributor
William Nimick as a contributor

Rangers
Tom Grieve as a contributor
Ron Washington as a contributor

Rays
Andrew Friedman as a contributor

Reds
Lonny Frey
Dolf Luque
Bob Purkey
O. P. Caylor as a contributor
Frank Bancroft as a contributor
Bob Howsam as a contributor

Red Sox
Dick Radatz
Ellis Kinder

Royals
Kevin Seitzer as a contributor

Twins
Firpo Marberry

White Sox
Early Wynn
Bill Melton
Clark Griffith as a contributor
Ozzie Guillen as a contributor

Yankees
Bob Meusel
Bob Shawkey
George Weiss as a contributor

American Association
Will White
Ed Morris
Henry Larkin
Curt Welch
Arlie Latham
Toad Ramsey
Pop Snyder as a contributor
Billy McMunnigle as a contributor
Billy Barnie as a contributor
Charles Byrne as a contributor
Zack Phelps as a contributor
Gus Schmelz as a contributor
Bill Sharsig as a contributor
Aaron Stern as a contributor
Jimmy Williamson as a contributor
Wheeler Wykoff as a contributor
John O. Kelly as a contributor

Defunct NL
Fred Dunlap
Joe Start
Jack Rowe
Frank Bancroft as a contributor
Jack Chapman as a contributor
Patsy Tebeau as a contributor

Pre 1876
Nat Hicks
Asa Brainard
Candy Cummings
Levi Meyerle

Negro Leagues
Francisco Coimbre
Frank Warfield as a contributor
Alex Pompez as a contributor

[jalbright]

I think I should add recent retirees who have not already been elected (retired 2010 or later) to the above list. Some names I can think of:

Tony LaRussa contributor to the A's and Cardinals;
Troy Glaus to the Angels;
Jason Varitek and Tim Wakefield to the Red Sox;

Feel free to remind me of others.

[jalbright]

I think what we'll do for the second chance election is a Yes/No vote requiring the greater of 6 or 75% of the votes to induct. The election will be limited to the listed nominees. I will present enough teams to put (as a guideline) 10-12 names into consideration (that could be one grouping, like the American Association, or 10 teams of mostly 1 nominees plus 2 of 2. The elections will only be open for a week. Each team (or grouping like the AA) will have its own thread. You can abstain from an entire ballot (player or contributor), but if you vote in that portion of the ballot, only the guys you expressly vote yes for get credit for a positive vote. The others in that section of the ballot will be considered to have gotten a "no" vote. There will be no limits on how many nominees you can vote for . I will also provide the nomination discussions for the nominees. I will start the threads two or three days before the election begins to allow for discussion and last minute nominations.

[PVNICK]

I don't know if this counts since I have only voted on the Mets, and maybe early on the Yankees, but I would very strongly second George Weiss.

[jalbright]

I don't know if this counts since I have only voted on the Mets, and maybe early on the Yankees, but I would very strongly second George Weiss.

I'll take seconds from anybody who wants to post them. I mean, I have worked up the cases myself, and if I must say so myself, I've accepted weaker cases made by others.

[jalbright]

Due to a family emergency, this project is on hold, probably for the next week.

[DJC]

I updated the cumulative list to include the new Yankee HOFers. Dave Winfield was added to the list of individuals elected to multiple franchise Halls (Yankees and Padres).

Since the Marlins are the only team without anyone in their franchise Hall, I'd like to suggest Luis Castillo and/or Jack McKeon for the second chance elections.

[jalbright]

Since the Marlins are the only team without anyone in their franchise Hall, I'd like to suggest Luis Castillo and/or Jack McKeon for the second chance elections.

You may suggest, but somebody's got to put together a bit of a case for either or both of them to make it. There's plenty of examples, and the bar for inclusion isn't exceptional.

[jalbright]

Due to a family emergency, this project is on hold, probably for the next week.

It's now time to get back to moving this process along. Sorry for the interruption, but I simply didn't have time for it last week.

[jalbright]

Two Red Sox I would like to at least give a second chance to are Dick Radatz and Ellis Kinder.

Radatz wasn't with the Sox for long, only from 1962-66. But he was the best reliever in WAR in the majors for that period, and the single best reliever in WAR in 1962, 1963 and 1964. For me, that's enough to put him in the Sox HOF.

Kinder excelled in both starting and relieving roles for the Sox. In 1949, he was The Sporting News' Pitcher of the Year. If we use WAR instead, he was 5th in pitcher WAR in the AL in 1949, and 9th in each of 1950, 1951 and 1953. He was the best reliever in the majors in WAR in 1951 and 1953.

[jalbright]

Donie Bush may not need a push from me, but here it is anyway: he was the best shortstop in the AL in WAR in 1909, 1910, 1912 and 1914, and the second best in the league in 1915 and 1917. He was a Tiger in all those seasons. That's six seasons worth of All-Star performance at shortstop as a Tiger. I think that makes him worthy of being included in the Tiger HOF.

[jalbright]

I'll also nominate Ray Chapman for the Indians. He spent his whole career with the Tribe, and received a fatal wound from a beaning while wearing their uniform. During the time of his career, 1912-1920, he has the most WAR of any shortstop in the majors. In single season terms, he was the WAR leader among AL shortstops in 1915, 1917, 1918, and 1920 (despite dying with about a month to go in the season), and he was second among AL shortstops in 1919. He belongs in the Indian HOF.

[jjpm74]

Why is Joe Wood listed on the second chance list for the Red Sox? We elected him to the Red Sox HOF last round.

[jalbright]

I want to make two nominations for the Braves: Billy Hamilton and John Clarkson.

Hamilton was with the Braves franchise from 1896-1901, and is the CF with the most WAR during that time. He was the best CF in WAR in the following individual seasons: 1896, 1897, 1898 and 1900.

Clarkson was with the team in 1888-1892, though only half the 1891 season. He was dominant in that time, though:
He got a pitching Triple Crown (Wins, ERA and K's) in 1889
He led the league (all players) in WAR in 1889, and was 6th in the same classification in 1890;
In pitching WAR, he led the league in 1889, was 5th in 1890, 8th in 1892, and 9th in 1888;
In ERA, he was first in 1889 and 3rd in 1892;
In wins, he was first in 1889, 2d in 1888, and 7th in 1890;
In won-loss percentage, he was first in 1889, 6th in 1888, and 9th in 1890;
In strikeouts/ 9 IP, he was 5th in 1889 and 9th in 1888;
In strikeouts, he was first in 1889, 2d in 1888, and 10th in 1890;
and in IP, he led in both 1888 and 1889 and was 7th in 1890.

This was in an era when pitchers often had all their careers in as few as five seasons, or at least all their productive years in such a span. Few if any in that time could match Clarkson's productivity in his years with the Braves.

[jalbright]

Why is Joe Wood listed on the second chance list for the Red Sox? We elected him to the Red Sox HOF last round.

Clerical error on my part.

[jalbright]

Since I wasn't getting much response to my own nominations, which required a second, I modified the rule so that any candidate I nominated who received the greater of four votes or at least 50% of the total was automatically seconded. This reduced the list of players needing seconds dramatically, and some of them are with franchises which are still holding elections and therefore could reach the 50% threshhold. I updated the list of candidates for second chances to reflect this rule change and other seconds. Currently, no one has submitted an argument for a player or contributor which will not result in that individual receiving a second chance election.

[DJC]

The cumulative list has been updated to include the results from the 4th-round A's and Braves elections.

[jjpm74]

Frank Warfield as a Negro League contributor

Francisco Coimbre as a Negro Leaguer

Dick Radatz for the Red Sox, assuming he's not elected before the second chance opportunity arises

Ellis Kinder for the Red Sox, assuming he's not elected before the second chance opportunity arises

I will second these players (not that I am a definite to vote for them). I'm not at all sold on Tekulve given how high the bar has been set for relievers.

[jalbright]

Thanks. I've seconded many that I won't vote for, either. To me, seconding is just saying the candidates are worthy of consideration.

[jjpm74]

Thanks. I've seconded many that I won't vote for, either. To me, seconding is just saying the candidates are worthy of consideration.

I see that I did a poor job quoting. I am seconding Tekulve as well as the other 4 even though I do not intend to vote for Tekulve. His omission was a sloppy cut and paste.

[jalbright]

I see that I did a poor job quoting. I am seconding Tekulve as well as the other 4 even though I do not intend to vote for Tekulve. His omission was a sloppy cut and paste.

Hey, we all make mistakes--I make my share, that's for sure. Anyway, thanks.

[jalbright]

It looks to me like the fifth round will be the last before the second chance voting begins. All the franchises so far have had issues this round.

[DJC]

I updated the cumulative list again to include the results from the Red Sox and Tigers 4th rounds. Chet Lemon is a new addition to the list of players elected to multiple Halls (White Sox and Tigers).

[jalbright]

I'm going to start the fifth round this weekend with three teams--the Dodgers, Yankees and Braves. The Pirates and Reds are the only teams left in the fourth round, and they're both stuck at six votes, not enough to warrant a fifth round. If the votes materialize and they seem to deserve a fifth round, I'll give it to whichever one(s) qualify. The fifth round will be the last before the second chance and actives rounds. The Dodgers, Yankees and Braves are the only three that have qualified for a fifth round so far.

If neither the Reds nor Pirates make it to a fifth round, we'll start the second chance round next weekend, but with the first round taking three full weeks. If the Pirates and/or Reds make a fifth round, the second chance round will start midweek of the week of the 26th.

[DJC]

Cumulative list updated again, if anyone cares.