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Thread: Rating the BBCOR bats

  1. #1
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    Rating the BBCOR bats

    My son got a chance to swing a handful of BBCOR bats over the last couple of weeks. These are the bats he swung and in the order he rated them 1) Easton surge, 2) Easton Rival, 3) Demarini Voodoo 4) Tpx Omaha 5) Rawlings 5150. The top 3 bats did not thicken the walls to make their bats BBCOR compliant the other 2 did.

    Let me start with that compared to the BESR bats well it"s going to be a different game this year. The consensus was that everyone would rather swing the BESR bats. I'm still not sure what the CIF is going to decide next month. It will be interesting to see if the Bat Companies will be able to get enough bats out for all levels of college baseball plus the 40,000 plus H.S players in CA.

    Easton Surge- By Far he thought this was the best BBCOR bat He said it swung and felt like BESR surge no vibration at all. Ball jumped off the bat, this is the one to get if you can.

    Easton Rival- Very balanced no Vibration. Ball jumped off the bat

    Demarini Voodoo- Balanced and very little Vibration the ball didn't seem to jump off of this bat. No one else liked this bat as much as he did.

    Tpx Omaha- Seemed end loaded probably because of the thickened the walls plus more Vibration if you didn't hit it exactly on the sweet spot.

    Rawlings 5150- End loaded probably because of the thickened the walls plus vibration no matter where the you hit it on the bat.

    Its going to be all individual preference on whether you like a 1 or 2 piece bat or which brand you like or how much you can afford. No one there had the Anderson or the Nike BBCOR.
    Last edited by HOOAH; 12-20-2010 at 06:49 PM. Reason: correction of players in state

  2. #2
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    Thanks of the testing and update, but I have a couple questions for ya . . .

    1. You said that, "it"s going to be a different game this year", but than you went on to say that the, "Ball jumped off the bat" which sounds a bit contradictory, so can you explain a little bit more on those two thoughts?

    2. How do any of these bats compare to wood as far as performance?

    The reason I ask is that several of the kids I work with, that have used some of the new BBCOR bats in the fall (although I don't know which ones they swung), said they were "dogs", and that they were going to use wood this year.

    Thoughts . . . comparisons?
    In memory of "Catchingcoach" - Dave Weaver: February 28, 1955 - June 17, 2011

  3. #3
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    Your right let me rephrase that "Ball jumped off the bat" he was comparing them to the other BBCOR bats. He went in there with a open mind like the BESR bats never existed. All the BBCOR bats are dogs compared to the BESR bats. If they go up to bat expecting the same performance as the BESR bats then they will be very disappointed.

    The Easton bats just came out where as I think they gave themselves more time to tweak them. He didn't like the vibration from the Omaha or the 5150. They will all perform better than wood except probably the Rawlings. As for the game will be different for the most part the long ball will be gone unless they play on a field where the fences are closer.

    The kids you worked with probably used the one of the other three bats. If I remember right the Voodoo came out for sale 1st followed by the Omaha .
    Last edited by HOOAH; 12-20-2010 at 12:30 PM.

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    HOOAH,

    I’m not sure if you’re saying this is a good thing or a bad one.

    I don’t know if you were around when BESR came about, but the same kind of things were being said. Yup. BESR bats were thought by many then to be some kind of Kommie plot to ruin the blossoming baseball careers of many young power hitters. In fact, I remember two boys on my son’s Fr team who started the season with wood, because they were so sure wood was superior.

    My personal thoughts about all the whoopla, are that its all just that. whoopla. Everyone can whine, complain, or cry all they want, but the fact remains that even in Ca if they aren’t required this season, like the rest of the country, they’ll be required next. And, if by some quirk of the cosmos a player dodges the problem in HS, he’s still gonna have to face it in college.

    In the end though, the games will still be played because the games are always played. The sad thing is though, the players will easily adapt, the coaches will eventually adapt, but the parents will always see this as the reason their kid never got that D1 ‘ship or signed that contract.

    I think most SERIOUS players will do what your boy did, and give them all a “test ride”. Then I think the next batch of BBCORs will be “adjusted” to make them as acceptable to the consumer as possible. There may be a few players that opt for wood, and that’s wonderful, but I doubt there’ll be as many as people believe.

    I’m looking forward to the whole thing, especially comparing Ca’s numbers against the rest of the country’s, because I want to see if there’s really a huge drop-off in performance. I’m suspecting a significant drop in HRs, but not nearly as much in anything else. I'm already planning for comparisons of pre-BBCOR to post-BBCOR stats.

    But that’s the fun of it all! The anticipation of what’s going to happen is what keeps me goin’ to the park.
    The pitcher who’s afraid to throw strikes, will soon be standing in the shower with the hitter who's afraid to swing.

  5. #5
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    Guys, just to be clear, they are required in CA this coming season (2011) . . . unless someone's is reading this and interpreting it different than I am or as I've also been told.

    CIF Baseball Bat Implementation

    Basic summary from the site . . .
    9. Q: What exactly do you mean by “available statewide”?

    A: Schools and individuals will have the same opportunity to purchase aluminum bats from their normal sources, regardless of where they live. As the year progresses, CIF will monitor the availability of these bats. Availability updates will be posted on the CIF Web site.

    UPDATE: We've been told aluminum bats will be commercially available statewide on or before January 1, 2011.

    10. Q: Will this same exception be allowed for composite bats?
    A: No. Composite bats must meet the new BBCOR performance standards this school year, 2010-11 unless the bat is listed on the waiver/modification list.

    11. Q: Are there different standards that must be met for aluminum bats?

    A: The requirements are the same as those required for composite bats.
    In memory of "Catchingcoach" - Dave Weaver: February 28, 1955 - June 17, 2011

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by scorekeeper View Post
    I don’t know if you were around when BESR came about, but the same kind of things were being said. Yup. BESR bats were thought by many then to be some kind of Kommie plot to ruin the blossoming baseball careers of many young power hitters. In fact, I remember two boys on my son’s Fr team who started the season with wood, because they were so sure wood was superior.
    Here's a quote from ten years ago, when NFHS was considering getting rid of minus-5s and mandating minus-3s.

    "In high school, there will be about three guys per team who have the ability to swing minus-3 bats," said Sass. "If you take the diameter down and affect the weight, it is going to affect high school baseball dramatically."

    A sub-heading asked, "Do New [BESR] Bats Ruin the Game?"

    http://www.fogdog.com/fog-new-regula...bg-412020.html

    Obviously, minus-3 BESR bats didn't ruin HS baseball.
    That being said, in my opinion BBCOR bats will dramatically alter HS baseball. I'll like it. Not sure the players will--at least until a couple of years have passed so that BESR rocket launchers become a dim memory.
    Last edited by skipper5; 12-20-2010 at 11:05 AM.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by skipper5 View Post
    Here's a quote from ten years ago, when NFHS was considering getting rid of minus-5s and mandating minus-3s.

    "In high school, there will be about three guys per team who have the ability to swing minus-3 bats," said Sass. "If you take the diameter down and affect the weight, it is going to affect high school baseball dramatically."

    A sub-heading asked, "Do New [BESR] Bats Ruin the Game?"

    http://www.fogdog.com/fog-new-regula...bg-412020.html

    Obviously, minus-3 BESR bats didn't ruin HS baseball.
    That being said, in my opinion BBCOR bats will dramatically alter HS baseball. I'll like it. Not sure the players will--at least until a couple of years have passed so that BESR rocket launchers become a dim memory.
    Its always the same type of thing whenever there’s any kind of change. All the pundits and experts make all kinds of predictions of doom and gloom, but “Ol’ man river, just keeps rollin’ along.”

    I too am thinking I’ll be likin’ this particular change, but I truly don’t believe its going to be the kind of overall changes many people believe. I suspect the biggest change will be in the gross number of HRs, not necessarily in the number of runs scored, but I’m sure lookin’ forward to finding out.
    The pitcher who’s afraid to throw strikes, will soon be standing in the shower with the hitter who's afraid to swing.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by scorekeeper View Post
    I suspect the biggest change will be in the gross number of HRs, not necessarily in the number of runs scored, but I’m sure lookin’ forward to finding out.
    If BBCOR bats are truly woodlike, then everything I've seen from summer woodbat indicates that there will be a noticeable reduction in runs scored.
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    [QUOTE=mudvnine;1828425]Guys, just to be clear, they are required in CA this coming season (2011) . . . unless someone's is reading this and interpreting it different than I am or as I've also been told.

    Mud
    I still don't see how there will be enough bats. Sports Authority in Ca. are blowing smoke up the CIF's well you get the Idea. It will just be a wait and see till sometime in Jan.

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    From what I've heard/read, the BBCOR bats are basically more durable wood bats. I predict that the BBCOR bats will eliminate "linear" hitting and force a general change to better (high-level) mechanics. However, other people thought that -3 bats would force a change to higher level mechanics. As a result, I don't think anything will really change. There will be fewer home runs, and the game will based more on bat control (kind of like a Dead-Ball Era with aluminum). I believe that my state, Virginia, is implementing the BBCOR standard this year. Is this only for composites or both composites and aluminum in Virginia?

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by skipper5 View Post
    If BBCOR bats are truly woodlike, then everything I've seen from summer woodbat indicates that there will be a noticeable reduction in runs scored.
    I’m not at all saying that there won’t be a reduction in runs or even a “noticeable” one, whatever that is. Its just that I’ve spent so much time rootin’ around in HS numbers, I know how difficult it is to actually find solid trends.

    In the ML we have the ability to plot a graph of RPG for decades for most teams, and literally over a hundred years for some. Its not typical to find many HS records like that. Also in the ML, the competition is much more equivalent than in HS, so that skews things as well.

    But this season will be strange in that it’ll be fairly easy to compare Ca with Fl, Tx, and Az. They all have basically the same weather, and are all hotbeds of HS baseball. So while there are undoubtedly more teams in those other states than CA has, Ca has a heck of a lot of teams and should therefore give a very solid representative example.

    We’ll see what happens, but I’m not gonna go any further than to say I believe HRs will drop by at least 25%.
    The pitcher who’s afraid to throw strikes, will soon be standing in the shower with the hitter who's afraid to swing.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by HOOAH View Post
    … I still don't see how there will be enough bats. Sports Authority in Ca. are blowing smoke up the CIF's well you get the Idea. It will just be a wait and see till sometime in Jan.
    Sports Authority is not the only distributor out here. I the 10 years my boy played, I didn’t by one bat there, and most of the players and parents I talk to about it don’t purchase bats there either. But we’ll see what happens. I really hope Ca pulls it off.
    The pitcher who’s afraid to throw strikes, will soon be standing in the shower with the hitter who's afraid to swing.

  13. #13
    how do high end BBCOR bats compare to cheap bats from lets say 5 years ago.

    Does a 300 dollar BBCOR bat have less pop than a 60 dollar pre-testing days bat? or is is not that extreme?
    I think walks are overrated unless you can run. If you get a walk and put the pitcher in a stretch, that helps, but the guy who walks and can’t run, most of the time he’s clogging up the bases for somebody who can run. – Dusty Baker.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by scorekeeper View Post
    I’m not at all saying that there won’t be a reduction in runs or even a “noticeable” one, whatever that is..
    noticeable
    –adjective
    1.
    attracting notice or attention; capable of being noticed.
    2.
    worthy or deserving of notice or attention; noteworthy.

    An example of a "noticeable reduction in runs scored" would be one attracting the notice or attention of this board at the conclusion the upcoming California HS baseball season. If such a thread turns out to be worthy or deserving of notice or attention, then it will probably be a long one.
    Last edited by skipper5; 12-20-2010 at 03:06 PM.
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  15. #15
    Dominik,
    Presumably a high end $300 BBCOR has noticeably less "pop" than a cheap BESR bat from 5 years ago; and less than a cheap pre-BESR bat from 11 years ago, when the bats had no limits.
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by dominik View Post
    how do high end BBCOR bats compare to cheap bats from lets say 5 years ago.

    Does a 300 dollar BBCOR bat have less pop than a 60 dollar pre-testing days bat? or is is not that extreme?
    As far as “pop” goes, all you need to understand, is that the BBCOR standard is in effect the same as wood. Of course since non-wood means it will likely have a slightly larger sweet spot and won’t break on handle or end of the bat hits, those will be some advantage, how much is hard to tell. But in essence, a ball hit perfectly with a wood bat will go very close to the same distance as one hit perfectly with a BBCOR bat with the same bat and pitch speed.

    So, there’s no way a BBCOR bat will perform as well as most anything non-wood made in the last 5-10 years. Forget the $$$ amount. The most hopped up BBCOR bat will not outperform the least hopped up bat by enough to make it cost effective. But, the difference in “feel” may well be worth a substantial sum to some players. FI, if you hate an end loaded bat, but the only non-end loaded one you can find costs $400, chances are you’re gonna spend the $$$$.

    Many questions like yours won’t really be able to be answered very well until after this 1st year. Remember, every college player and only one state I know of are gonna be using BBCOR this upcoming season. but they’ll have a lot of impact on what the bats look and feel like next season.
    The pitcher who’s afraid to throw strikes, will soon be standing in the shower with the hitter who's afraid to swing.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by scorekeeper View Post
    As far as “pop” goes, all you need to understand, is that the BBCOR standard is in effect the same as wood. Of course since non-wood means it will likely have a slightly larger sweet spot and won’t break on handle or end of the bat hits, those will be some advantage, how much is hard to tell. But in essence, a ball hit perfectly with a wood bat will go very close to the same distance as one hit perfectly with a BBCOR bat with the same bat and pitch speed.

    So, there’s no way a BBCOR bat will perform as well as most anything non-wood made in the last 5-10 years. Forget the $$$ amount. The most hopped up BBCOR bat will not outperform the least hopped up bat by enough to make it cost effective. But, the difference in “feel” may well be worth a substantial sum to some players. FI, if you hate an end loaded bat, but the only non-end loaded one you can find costs $400, chances are you’re gonna spend the $$$$.

    Many questions like yours won’t really be able to be answered very well until after this 1st year. Remember, every college player and only one state I know of are gonna be using BBCOR this upcoming season. but they’ll have a lot of impact on what the bats look and feel like next season.
    As bad as wood? Is this just perception (can happen if you have to move down to a worse bat) or is it really like wood?

    so that basically means you can just a well buy a wall mart bat instead of spending big $$$?
    I think walks are overrated unless you can run. If you get a walk and put the pitcher in a stretch, that helps, but the guy who walks and can’t run, most of the time he’s clogging up the bases for somebody who can run. – Dusty Baker.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by HOOAH View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mudvnine View Post
    Guys, just to be clear, they are required in CA this coming season (2011) . . . unless someone's is reading this and interpreting it different than I am or as I've also been told.
    Mud
    I still don't see how there will be enough bats. Sports Authority in Ca. are blowing smoke up the CIF's well you get the Idea. It will just be a wait and see till sometime in Jan.
    Not sure that they expect everyone to buy at retailers . . . many of the online "stores" are advertising their availability.

    Will there be enough for all of the NCAA hitters and the CA HS kids? I don't know, but I'm pretty sure the manufacturers are gonna want to make sure that they have enough bats for the CA kids being held hostage by CIF . . . I'm sure we can all imagine the bat manufacturers jumping for joy with this new "mandated" income flow for them.

    I know if I was making bats, I'd sure as heck do what I had to do to meet the demand versus losing those $$ for another year.
    In memory of "Catchingcoach" - Dave Weaver: February 28, 1955 - June 17, 2011

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by dominik View Post
    As bad as wood? Is this just perception (can happen if you have to move down to a worse bat) or is it really like wood?
    Why do you put the connotation on it that wood is bad? Good grief, non-wood’s only been around 46 years or so, and I assure you that until the late 80’s there weren’t exactly balls leapin’ off the bats like they did from the mid-90’s on.

    There are two generations out there that have the same skewed idea about what’s supposed to happen when a bat and ball meet that you do, and it’s a shame. All that’s gonna happen is, technique is going to mean a lot more than the price of bat a player can afford.

    I promise you that a good swing and a ball well met will still produce sizzling hits that sometimes go over the fence.

    so that basically means you can just a well buy a wall mart bat instead of spending big $$$?
    I suppose that’s true in theory, but you can bet there’s gonna be something that separates the bats. After all, you don’t get a Rolls Royce for the price of a Ford Escort.

    I sincerely hope this doesn’t come true to any large degree, but here’s a possibility. Once everyone falls under the new guidelines, maybe they’ll make some cheap bats that don’t perform a well as wood. After all, how would anyone really know as long as they get the approval? As far as I know, there’s no minimum performance requirements.
    Or how about if the really cheapo models have lousy paint or come without a decent warranty?

    I suspect the top models will be available in a wider variety of weights, balances, and “feels” to try to draw as many customers as possible. Maybe a special grip or paint job. How about a thicker or thinner handle? People pay for options and bells and whistles!
    The pitcher who’s afraid to throw strikes, will soon be standing in the shower with the hitter who's afraid to swing.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by HOOAH View Post
    Easton Surge- By Far he thought this was the best BBCOR bat He said it swung and felt like BESR surge no vibration at all. Ball jumped off the bat, this is the one to get if you can.

    Easton Rival- Very balanced no Vibration. Ball jumped off the bat

    Demarini Voodoo- Balanced and very little Vibration the ball didn't seem to jump off of this bat. No one else liked this bat as much as he did.

    Tpx Omaha- Seemed end loaded probably because of the thickened the walls plus more Vibration if you didn't hit it exactly on the sweet spot.

    Rawlings 5150- End loaded probably because of the thickened the walls plus vibration no matter where the you hit it on the bat.
    .
    Again, Ive said this, Its a conspiracy the bat companies dont give us the swing weight or the balance point on bats and we have to guess at it. Easton gave out a scale last year , but has now removed it.

    Btw I thought the Voodoo was suppose to be the endloaded bat and the Vexxum the balanced bat. I remember when these bats came out, Voodoo was touted as the power bat and Vexxum was the contact bat. Its a conspiracy they dont give it. CONspiRACY!

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by scorekeeper View Post
    Why do you put the connotation on it that wood is bad? Good grief, non-wood’s only been around 46 years or so, and I assure you that until the late 80’s there weren’t exactly balls leapin’ off the bats like they did from the mid-90’s on.

    There are two generations out there that have the same skewed idea about what’s supposed to happen when a bat and ball meet that you do, and it’s a shame. All that’s gonna happen is, technique is going to mean a lot more than the price of bat a player can afford.

    I promise you that a good swing and a ball well met will still produce sizzling hits that sometimes go over the fence.


    Maybe bad was the wrong word. I love hitting with wood and wouldn't mind if all players had to hit with wood. I was just surprised that the new bats don't have more pop than wood bats.
    I think walks are overrated unless you can run. If you get a walk and put the pitcher in a stretch, that helps, but the guy who walks and can’t run, most of the time he’s clogging up the bases for somebody who can run. – Dusty Baker.

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by scorekeeper View Post

    I suppose that’s true in theory, but you can bet there’s gonna be something that separates the bats. After all, you don’t get a Rolls Royce for the price of a Ford Escort.

    I sincerely hope this doesn’t come true to any large degree, but here’s a possibility. Once everyone falls under the new guidelines, maybe they’ll make some cheap bats that don’t perform a well as wood. After all, how would anyone really know as long as they get the approval? As far as I know, there’s no minimum performance requirements.
    Or how about if the really cheapo models have lousy paint or come without a decent warranty?

    I suspect the top models will be available in a wider variety of weights, balances, and “feels” to try to draw as many customers as possible. Maybe a special grip or paint job. How about a thicker or thinner handle? People pay for options and bells and whistles!
    that's true. there are still differences. but they are not going to be as large.

    staying with the car example: if there is a car race with no limitations the car builder with more mney usually wins. but if all cars can't have more than 70 horse power the more expensive car will not have much of an edge.
    I think walks are overrated unless you can run. If you get a walk and put the pitcher in a stretch, that helps, but the guy who walks and can’t run, most of the time he’s clogging up the bases for somebody who can run. – Dusty Baker.

  23. #23
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    It made a huge difference at our Division III school switching from BESR to BBCOR, and this sentiment is resounding amongst college baseball circles.

    They are more barrell heavy, at least thats how I feel, and balls just don't go anywhere unless they're squared up. They act more like wood than anything but wood itself. Definately going to see fewer HR's and probably a decrease in runs per game by 1 or 2 runs

  24. #24
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    My son says that even though the BBCORs feel dead, there is no question that the ball carries further with the BBCOR bats than wood...Although he likes the feel of wood vs BBCOR. He definitely prefers the feel when he barreled up with last year's BESR Easton Speed compared to the new BBCOR bats. Easton is sponsoring his school.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by dominik View Post
    Maybe bad was the wrong word. I love hitting with wood and wouldn't mind if all players had to hit with wood. I was just surprised that the new bats don't have more pop than wood bats.
    You seem to be missing the main purpose here. Most baseball people were flat out sick and tired of bats playing such an important part in the game. Whether they had gotten so dangerous to the players that it became intolerable is beside the point. The fact is, they had become far more of a lethal weapon than necessary to play the game.

    And it was the same with performance. Although no one could really measure the amount a top $$$$ bat could influence what a player did with it, it was obvious that it had become so much that a bat’s importance had reduced the skills needed to excel, far too much. Plus, it had gotten to the point where $$$$ could buy performance that some players simply couldn’t afford. In the pro game that’s one thing, but in the amateur game it simply shouldn’t be acceptable.

    The bottom line is, there was too much pop and the game made an “adjustment”.

    Quote Originally Posted by dominik View Post
    that's true. there are still differences. but they are not going to be as large.

    staying with the car example: if there is a car race with no limitations the car builder with more mney usually wins. but if all cars can't have more than 70 horse power the more expensive car will not have much of an edge.
    I guess you don’t follow NASCAR racing too much. Although there are some differences in the cars, there are so many restrictions on engines and cars, and the main reason is, they want the skills of the driver and pit crew to be what determines the outcome of the races as much as possible. There was/is also a series where several racers are put in exactly the same cars and have to compete that way to see who the best driver is.
    The pitcher who’s afraid to throw strikes, will soon be standing in the shower with the hitter who's afraid to swing.

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