This is our fifty-sixth election in this project. The entire rules follow.
This election will end at 11:59:59 PM EST on February 18, 2011.
The prior election, and the ballots of the 1990 voters, are in this thread
Researcher/advocate/mod
This is our fifty-sixth election in this project. The entire rules follow.
This election will end at 11:59:59 PM EST on February 18, 2011.
The prior election, and the ballots of the 1990 voters, are in this thread
Last edited by jalbright; 02-08-2011 at 01:26 PM.
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
Rules
1) All BBF users in good standing may participate. However, if there is more than one vote being cast from any one computer or IP, it must be cleared in advance. Should there be unannounced multiple votes from the same IP, I will investigate the circumstances, and all user names involved may be barred from this project as a result, and all but one of the multiple usernames permanently banned from the site. I only anticipate exceptions for family members living in the same home, but I will entertain requests on other bases. Please note that I and the other mods who participate in the project have the capability of determining the IP from which posts come, and I for one intend to monitor same. I have had to deal with a single user manipulating a project with multiple votes, and I don't intend to repeat the experience.
2) Elections will require a 10 voter quorum. If we do not get ten voters and there are candidate(s) who would be elected no matter what the voters needed to make a quorum did, those candidate(s) will be inducted. Otherwise, no one will be inducted. Further, if we fail to meet a quorum in two of any four consecutive elections, the portion(s) of the project failing to meet the quorum requirement will end. If, for instance, we're doing fine on the player end but not the contributor end, I would drop the contributor end under this rule.
3) We will start in 1936, just as Cooperstown did. For the first election (1936), voters will rank their top 20, taking 10. After that we will go to having voters rank their top 12 players. Points awarded 12-11-10, etc. We will take the top five through 1940, then top three players per year elected until 2010, then two per year. If a voter does not number his selections, I will try to get him/her to do so. If they do not do so before the end of the election period, I may in my sole discretion invalidate the ballot. I have included this provision in order to ease the process of recording the votes. On another point, I know, the 1936 backlog is huge--but that was a historical issue they couldn't avoid, so neither will we.
4) We will also have a contributor ballot, which will elect one a year through 1985, then one every three (3) years. Contributors will be ranked 1 through 5, with points awarded 5-4-3-2-1. Voters may choose to participate in either one of the ballots or both.
5) It is permissible to vote for a candidate on both the contributor and player lists.
6) You are allowed to change your ballot at any time the voting is open. However, if you change your ballot, you've got to notify me (jalbright) by PM or by a new post in the voting thread, or the changes likely will not be registered.
7) Players are eligible at the later of age 45 or the first year thereafter in which the player does not play. If the birthdate is not known, add five years to the first time the player misses a season and has less than 10 games the next season. There is an exception for early death, in which case the year of death plus two will be used if that yields an earlier date.
8) Contributors become eligible at age 65 or in the year of death plus two. whichever comes first.
9) Each election will run for approximately two weeks unless expressly altered by the project manager, contributors and players done simultaneously.
10) No one is excluded from being a candidate, regardless of the league they played in, except those elected in either the contributor or player ballots. At that point, they are removed from further consideration. If there are players who returned to the Negro Leagues or Japan after going to the majors, the departure from the majors will be their career end date for purposes of this project.
11) The standard for including a player on one's ballot is that the player must in the voter's opinion be among the very best eligible players (preferably the number voted on, but if a voter wishes to support someone they feel is 15th in a 12 person ballot instead of one of the top 12, it's too close for anyone to reasonably object. On the other hand, supporting the 25th best eligible candidate on a 12 person ballot is probably beyond the pale). I reserve the power to invalidate ballots which I do not feel are a reasonably knowledgeable, good faith effort to rank the players. One issue I am quite concerned about is that I do not want to see what clearly appear to be attempts to manipulate the ballot so as to elect a candidate. In isolation, I probably could live with this, but if it became a widely used tactic, the project would devolve into something I have no desire to be associated with. Moreover, I think that this position asks everyone else to cast legitimate votes so that you can manipulate the system to favor your pet candidates. I cannot accept that, as it strikes me as unfair to other voters. For example, you can't expect to favor even a legitimate HOF candidate like Bill Dahlen over Babe Ruth to get Dahlen elected without being asked to provide a reasonable justification for ranking Dahlen over Ruth. If you can provide a reasonable justification in that scenario, the ballot will stand. If not, you will be asked to make a change. I realize voters will sometimes have idiosyncratic choices, and I try to allow for that. However, a clear flouting of a consensus is apt to be met with a request that the ballot be justified pursuant to this rule. Certainly, a reasonable justification does not indicate in essence simply that you want Dahlen elected. Furthermore, if I invalidate multiple ballots by the same individual as failing to meet this rule, that individual will forever lose the right to have his/her ballots counted. Voters are encouraged to consider character, sportsmanship, and compliance with the rules and spirit of baseball in their rankings of players.
12) I will post lists of eligible players and contributors before each election. If you have a question about the eligibility of a candidate, please ask. I will provide a list of future eligibility dates as well.
13) My eligibility lists come from all persons in the BBF HOF, BBTF Hall of Merit, and Cooperstown, plus all persons getting a vote in a BBF HOF election in the past year and a half or in a BBWAA election. This is a relatively comprehensive list, and thus I must request that if you want another candidate included, you provide some justification for why said candidate is worthy of getting a vote in this project. The main area I think this might come into play is if a voter supports a person who was eligible for the final selections from the recent pre WWII or Negro League committees but not on my master list. That fact alone would serve as ample justification for putting said candidate on the list. We may learn more about Cuban ball or what have you and thus include others after a case is made for them, however. The contributor list is undoubtedly not as comprehensive, and this fact will be taken into consideration. For players, any request for a multiple time all-star in the all-star era will be approved. Players of that quality will generally be approved without much ado. However, when a player lacks that kind of qualification, I will likely ask for you to get a second from among our voters via a post in the current election thread. When in doubt, I will also require a second for suggested contributors. If a second is forthcoming, the player will be added. If not, the request will be rejected. I want to limit requests and seconds to players or contributors you actually might vote for.
14) Other than the sportsmanship and character issues, players are to be evaluated solely upon their play. I would prefer that if a player is qualified by his play standing alone that he be elected on that basis. However, a candidate may only be elected either as a contributor or a player, but not both. Contributors are the area where the entire body of work during his career in the sport, including his play, managing, scouting, executive, writing, broadcasting or other work in the sport is relevant. Contributors are to be ranked based on who the voter thinks is most worthy of induction into the Contributor group in this project.
15) Any ballot with two (2) or more spots unfilled with eligible candidates is invalid. In the event of the listing of ineligible names, I will try to notify the voter so that he/she can correct the ballot before the end of the voting period. If the change is made timely, it will count. If not, and there are two or more invalid names, the ballot will not be considered valid. If there is only one, the ineligible name will be stricken and all names after it on the affected ballot will be moved up one spot.
16) Any players listed beyond the 12th place for any ballot but the first (in which case it is 20th place) will be ignored. If more than one person is listed as tied for the last available place and the ballot is oversize, all names will be dropped, which may lead to the invalidation of the ballot.
17) Ties are not permitted in ballot listings. I reserve the right to invalidate ballots for use of ties in the rankings, be it within a single ballot or over the course of several ballots. If the voter does not correct such a listing voluntarily, except in the case of an oversize ballot tie for the last eligible place, if do not invalidate the ballot, I will choose the placement of the two "tied" candidates, generally preferring the candidate preferred by the other voters.
18) For any ties between candidates straddling the in/out line of selections, the first thing considered is the ranking of the candidates by the ballots cast. If there are more than two candidates tied, use a 2-1-0 or whatever is appropriate for the number of players tied system. If a voter does not list a candidate, he receives zero points in the tiebreaker procedure. Once one person separates from the tied group, restart with the remaining candidates until there are only as many candidates as the rules call for being elected. If they remain tied after this process, the candidate with the most votes received wins. If it is still tied after that, those with the most #1 votes as the next step, then the most #2 votes and so on to see if that breaks the tie. If not, we will induct all candidates who remain tied at that point.
19) One thing we're going to have to be aware of is the timeline in the case of at least a few contributors. Two which jump out at me are Buck O'Neill, 1976, and Branch Rickey, 1946. I intend to eventually vote for both men, but in 1946, Jackie Robinson was still in Montreal. Really, Branch should wait until at least 1947 after Jackie's success in the majors to get credit for that move. If you think Rickey belongs in the top 5 in 1946 without his role in breaking the color line, that's fine--but he shouldn't get credit for that important success until it actually happened. Buck O'Neill did some important things up until 1976, but after that he was in Ken Burns' Baseball and he was instrumental in the establishment of the Negro Leagues Hall of Fame (both occurred in or around 1994). If you think he belongs based on accomplishments before those two things, that's perfectly acceptable, but please don't credit him with them before they actually happened.
20) I will maintain a thread of the project's history and rules which will provide a listing of all elected candidates.
21) Feel free to ask questions by either sending jalbright a PM, or by posting a question in voting thread
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
The players who become eligible in 1991 are:
On the contributor side, we add these names in 1991:Code:Bonds , Bobby Fingers , Rollie Hunter , Catfish Jackson , Reggie Lee , Bill (Spaceman) Murcer , Bobby Oliver , Al Tenace , Gene Torrez , Mike Watson , Bob Yamamoto , Koji
Code:Davids , Bob Kuhn , Bowie Martin , Billy
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
The 1990 player candidates who were not elected had these results in the that election:
The 1990 contributor candidates who were not elected had these results in the that election:Code:Players………….. votes pts Oms, Alejandro 10 52 Lemon, Bob 10 51 Mendez , Jose 9 48 Joss , Addie 5 41 Jennings , Hughie 6 40 Tiant, Luis 5 36 Sutton, Don 6 33 Torre, Joe 6 31 Bresnahan , Roger 7 29 Grimes , Burleigh 4 28 Rixey , Eppa 4 28 Roush , Edd 6 28 Brock, Lou 3 23 Wynn, Jimmy 6 22 Kelley , Joe 4 20 Keller , Charlie 2 19 Brown, Willard 3 16 McVey , Cal 2 15 Beckley , Jake 3 12 Berger , Wally 2 12 Richardson , Hardy 1 10 Smith, Reggie 1 9 Elliott, Bob 1 8 Sheckard , Jimmy 2 8 Howard, Frank 1 6 Lundy , Dick 1 6 Aparicio, Luis 1 5 Cepeda, Orlando 1 5 Koyama, Masaaki 1 5 Freehan, Bill 1 4 Childs , Cupid 1 3 Gomez, Lefty 1 3 Rizzuto , Phil 1 3 Matlock, Leroy 1 2 Rice , Sam.. 1 2 Pike , Lip.... 1 1
I strongly suggest that you pay attention to this list, as the leaders of the holdovers are likely to join any strong newcomer candidates as the leaders for winning induction.Code:Contributors…….. votes pts Frick, Ford. 5 18 Rizzuto, Phil 5 16 Greenlee, Gus 4 14 Caray, Harry 2 9 Caylor , O. P. 2 8 Evans, Billy.. 2 8 Chandler, Happy 2 7 Ferguson, Bob 3 6 Harris, Vic.. 4 6 Jobe, Frank 1 5 Krichell, Paul 1 5 Murnane, Tim 3 5 Jennings , Hughie 1 4 Smith, Red. 1 4 Murtaugh, Danny 1 3 Abe, Iso..... 1 2 McCarthy, Tommy 1 2 Elias, Al Munro 1 1 Giles , Warren 1 1
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
carpe baseball
Players
1. Reggie Jackson
2. Alejandro Oms
3. Bob Lemon
4. Luis Tiant
5. Jose Mendez
6. Joe Torre
7. Jimmy Wynn
8. Don Sutton
9. Edd Roush
10. Hughie Jennings
11. Roger Bresnahan
12. Charlie Keller
Contributors
1. Gus Greenlee
2. O.P. Caylor
3. Al Munro Elias
4. Bob Davids
5. Vic Harris
"When you have no basis for an argument, abuse the plaintiff." -- Cicero
Registered User
01. Reggie Jackson
02. Luis Tiant
03. Alejandro Oms
04. Eppa Rixey
05. Jose Mendezd
06. Wally Berger
07. Burleigh Grimes
08. Jake Beckley
09. Bob Lemon
10. Jimmy Wynn
11. Koji Yamamoto
12. Willard Brown
01. Frank Jobe
02. Ford Frick
03. Phil Rizzuto
04. Vic Harris
05. Billy Martin
Researcher/advocate/mod
Members of the Best of Baseball Hall. Last election's inductees are in red.
Players
ContributorsCode:Hank Aaron Pete Alexander Dick Allen Cap Anson Luke Appling Richie Ashburn Earl Averill Frank Baker Ernie Banks Ross Barnes John Beckwith Cool Papa Bell Charlie Bennett Yogi Berra Akira Bessho Lou Boudreau Ken Boyer Dan Brouthers Mordecai Brown Ray Brown Jim Bunning Jesse Burkett Roy Campanella Rod Carew Max Carey Steve Carlton Bob Caruthers Oscar Charleston Fred Clarke John Clarkson Roberto Clemente Ty Cobb Mickey Cochrane Eddie Collins Jimmy Collins Roger Connor Stan Coveleski Sam Crawford Joe Cronin Bill Dahlen George Davis Dizzy Dean Ed Delahanty Bill Dickey Martin Dihigo Joe DiMaggio Larry Doby Bobby Doerr Don Drysdale Buck Ewing Red Faber Bob Feller Wes Ferrell Elmer Flick Whitey Ford Willie Foster Nellie Fox Jimmie Foxx Frankie Frisch Pud Galvin Lou Gehrig Charlie Gehringer Bob Gibson Josh Gibson Jack Glasscock Joe Gordon George Gore Goose Goslin Frank Grant Hank Greenberg Heinie Groh Lefty Grove Stan Hack Billy Hamilton Isao Harimoto Gabby Hartnett Harry Heilmann Billy Herman Pete Hill Paul Hines Rogers Hornsby Carl Hubbell Kazuhisa Inao Monte Irvin Joe Jackson Ferguson Jenkins Grant "Home Run"Johnson Walter Johnson Al Kaline Masaichi Kaneda Tim Keefe Willie Keeler King Kelly Harmon Killebrew Ralph Kiner Sandy Koufax Nap LaJoie Buck Leonard Pop Lloyd Ted Lyons Biz Mackey Sherry Magee Mickey Mantle Juan Marichal Eddie Mathews Christy Mathewson Willie Mays Willie McCovey Joe McGinnity Bid McPhee Joe Medwick Minnie Minoso Johnny Mize Dobie Moore Joe Morgan Stan Musial Shigeo Nagashima Hal Newhouser Kid Nichols Phil Niekro Katsuya Nomura Sadaharu Oh Jim O'Rourke Mel Ott Satchel Paige Jim Palmer Gaylord Perry Eddie Plank Charlie Radbourn Pee Wee Reese Robin Roberts Brooks Robinson Frank Robinson Jackie Robinson Bullet Joe Rogan Pete Rose Red Ruffing Amos Rusie Babe Ruth Ron Santo Louis Santop Tom Seaver Al Simmons George Sisler Enos Slaughter Hilton Smith Duke Snider Warren Spahn Tris Speaker Victor Starffin Willie Stargell Joe Start Turkey Stearnes Harry Stovey Mule Suttles Ezra Sutton Bill Terry Sam Thompson Cristobal Torriente Pie Traynor Dazzy Vance Arky Vaughan Rube Waddell Honus Wagner Bobby Wallace Ed Walsh Paul Waner John M. Ward Willie Wells Zack Wheat Deacon White Hoyt Wilhelm Billy Williams Smoky Joe Williams Ted Williams Jud Wilson George Wright Early Wynn Carl Yastrzemski Cy Young
Code:Doc Adams Mel Allen Walter Alston Red Barber Ed Barrow Buzzue Bavasi Ed Bolden Alexander Cartwright Henry Chadwick Frank Chance Charlie Commiskey Charles Conlon Tom Connolly Jim Creighton Jack Dunn Leo Durocher Rube Foster Clark Griffith Ned Hanlon William Hulbert Miller Huggins Ban Johnson Tetsuharu Kawakami Bill Klem Kenesaw Landis Al Lopez Connie Mack Larry MacPhail Joe McCarthy John McGraw Bill McKechnie Marvin Miller Walter O'Malley Dickey Pearce Cum Posey A. J. Reach Francis Richter Branch Rickey Jacob Ruppert Frank Selee Ben Shibe Matsutaro Shoriki Billy Southworth Al Spalding Alfred Spink J. G. T. Spink Casey Stengel C. I. Taylor Kazuto Tsuruoka Bill Veeck George Weiss Sol White J. L. Wilkinson Harry Wright
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
The complete list of eligible players:
The complete list of eligible contributors:Code:Adams , Babe Adams , Bobby Adams , Sparky Allen , Johnny Alou , Jesus Alou , Matty Alou, Felipe Altrock , Nick Aparicio, Luis Archer , Jimmy Arlett , Buzz Austin , Jimmy Avila, Bobby Bailey , Bob Bancroft , Dave Bando , Sal Barry , Jack Bartell , Dick Battin , Joe Bauer , Hank Beaumont , Ginger Beckert, Glenn Beckley , Jake Belanger , Mark Bender , Chief Benton , Larry Berg , Moe Bergen , Marty Berger , Wally Berry , Charlie Bibby , Jim Bigbee , Carson Billingham , Jack Bishop , Max Blackwell , Ewell Blades , Ray Blair , Paul Blass , Steve Blue , Lu Bluege , Ossie Bodie , Ping Boley , Joe Bond , Tommy Bonds , Bobby Bottomley , Jim Bowa , Larry Boyer , Clete Bradley , Bill Brecheen , Harry Breitenstein , Ted Bresnahan , Roger Brewer , Jim Bridges , Tommy Brock, Lou Brown , Willard Browning , Pete Bruton, Bill Burdette , Lew Burgess , Smoky Burns , George J. Bush , Joe Bush , Donie Bush , Guy Cadore , Leon Camilli , Dolph Camnitz , Howie Campaneris , Bert Cardenal , Jose Cardenas , Leo Carrasquel. Chico Carrigan , Bill Carroll, Clay Case , George Cash, Norm Cavaretta , Phil Cepeda , Orlando Cepeda , Perucho Chandler , Spud Chapman , Ben Chapman , Ray Chapman , Sam Chase , Hal Chesbro , Jack Childs , Cupid Cicotte , Eddie Cissell , Bill Clark , Watty Clarkson , Bus Clift, Harlond Coakley , Andy Colavito, Rocky Collins , Shano Combs , Earle Conroy , Wid Coombs , Jack Cooper , Andy Cooper , Mort Cooper , Walker Cooper , Wilbur Courtney , Clint Cox , Billy Crandall , Doc Crandall, Del Cravath , Gavvy Criger , Lou Critz , Hughie Cross , Lave Crowder , Al Cruise , Walt Cuccinello , Tony Cummings , Candy Cuyler , Kiki Dandridge , Ray Danning , Harry Dark , Alvin Daubert , Jake Davis , Curt Davis , Harry Davis , Spud Day , Leon Derringer , Paul DiMaggio , Dom Dinneen , Bill Doak , Bill Donlin , Mike Donovan , Bill Dooin , Red Doyle , Jack Doyle , Larry Dropo , Walt Duffy , Hugh Dugan , Joe Dunlap , Fred Dykes , Jimmy Earnshaw , George Easter, Luke Edwards , Hank Ehmke , Howard Elberfeld , Kid Elliott , Bob Elliott , Jumbo Ellis , Dock Ennis, Del Ens , Jewel Erskine , Carl Evers , Johnny Face, Roy Fairly , Ron Falkenberg , Cy Ferrell , Rick Fingers , Rollie Fitzsimmons , Freddie Fletcher , Art Flood , Curt Fonseca , Lew Foster , Eddie Fraser , Chick Freehan, Bill Fregosi , Jim Furillo , Carl Galan , Augie Garver, Ned Gelbert , Charlie Gleason , Kid Gomez , Lefty Gonzalez , Mike Gowdy , Hank Grant , Eddie Grantham , George Grimes , Burleigh Grimm , Charlie Grissom , Marv Groat, Dick Gromek , Steve Grove , Orval Gustine , Frank Haas , Mule Haddix, Harvey Hafey , Chick Hahn , Noodles Haines , Jesse Hallahan , Bill Harder , Mel Hargrave , Bubbles Harrelson , Bud Harris , Bucky Harris , Vic Hatton , Grady Hearn , Jim Hegan , Jim Helms, Tommy Hemus , Solly Henrich , Tommy Herman , Babe Herzog , Buck Hickman , Jim Higgins , Mike Hiller , John Hinchman , Bill Hodges, Gil Holmes , Tommy Holtzman , Ken Hooper , Harry Horton , Willie Houtteman , Art Howard , Frank Howard, Elston Hoy , Dummy Hoyt , Waite Huggins , Miller Hunter , Catfish Hutchinson , Fred Irwin , Charlie Jackman , Will Jackson , Reggie Jackson , Sonny Jennings , Hughie Jensen , Jackie John , Tommy Johnson , Bob Johnson , Davey Johnson , Judy Jones , Charley Jones , Fielder Jones , Sam P. Jordan , Tim Joss , Addie Judge , Joe Jurges , Billy Kaat, Jim Kamm , Willie Kawakami , Tetsuharu Kell , George Keller , Charlie Kelley , Joe Keltner , Ken Kerr , Dickie Kessinger , Don Killefer , Bill Kilroy , Matt Kinder , Ellis Klein , Chuck Kling , Johnny Kluszewski, Ted Knabe , Otto Koosman , Jerry Koyama, Masaaki Kremer , Ray Kress , Red Kuenn, Harvey Kuhel , Joe Kuzava , Bob Lange , Bill Lanier , Hal Larkin , Henry Larsen, Don Latham , Arlie Lavagetto , Cookie Law, Vern Lazzeri , Tony Leach , Freddy Leach , Tommy Lee , Bill Lee , Bill (Spaceman) Leever , Sam Lemon , Bob Leonard , Emil (Dutch) Lewis , Duffy Lewis, Buddy Lindstrom , Freddie Lobert , Hans Lockman , Whitey Lolich, Mickey Lollar, Sherm Lombardi , Ernie Lonborg , Jim Long , Herman Lopat , Ed Lopes , Davey Lopez , Al Lowe , Bobby Lucas , Red Lundy , Dick Luque , Dolf Lyle , Sparky Lyons , Denny Maglie , Sal Maloney, Jim Mancuso , Gus Manush , Heinie Maranville , Rabbit Marberry , Firpo Marion , Marty Maris, Roger Marquard , Rube Marshall , Mike G. Martin , Morrie Martin , Pepper Mathews , Bobby May , Lee Mays , Carl Mazeroski , Bill McAleer , Jimmy McCarthy , Tommy McCarver , Tim McCormick , Frank McCormick , Jim McDaniel , Lindy McDougald, Gil McGowan , Bill McGraw , Tug McInnis , Stuffy McLain , Denny McLean , Larry McMahon, Don McManus , Marty McMillan, Roy McNally , Dave McVey , Cal Meadows , Lee Mendez , Jose Messersmith , Andy Meusel , Bob Miksis , Eddie Milan , Clyde Millan , Felix Miller , Bing Miller , Dots Miller , Hack Monday , Rick Monroe , Bill Moon, Wally Moore , Jo-Jo Moore , Terry Moran , Pat Mostil , Johnny Mota, Manny Mulcahy , Hugh Mullane , Tony Mungo , Van Munson , Thurman Murcer , Bobby Murphy , Danny Murray , Red Myer , Buddy Nehf , Art Nettles , Graig Newcombe , Don Newsom , Bobo Nicholson , Bill Niekro , Joe Northey , Ron O'Doul , Lefty Oeschger , Joe O'Farrell , Bob O'Leary , Charlie Oliva, Tony Oliver , Al Oms , Alejandro O'Neill , Buck O'Neill , Steve O'Neill , Tip Orr , Dave Pabor , Charlie Pafko , Andy Pascual, Camilo Paskert , Dode Pearson , Monte Peckinpaugh , Roger Peitz , Heinie Pennock , Herb Perdue , Hub Perez , Tony Perkins , Cy Perranoski , Ron Perry , Jim Pesky , Johnny Petrocelli, Rico Phillippe , Deacon Pierce , Billy Pike , Lip Piniella, Lou Pinson, Vada Pipp , Wally Podres, Johnny Poles , Spotswood Porterfield , Bob Powell , Boog Power , Vic Pruett , Hub Quinn , Jack Raschi , Vic Raymond , Bugs Redding , Dick Reiser , Pete Remsen , Jack Reynolds , Allie Rice , Del Rice , Sam Richardson , Bobby Richardson , Hardy Ring , Jimmy Ritchey , Claude Rixey , Eppa Rizzuto , Phil Robertson , Dave Roe , Preacher Rolfe , Red Rommel , Eddie Root , Charlie Rosen, Al Roush , Edd Rucker , Nap Rudolph , Dick Ruel , Muddy Ryan , Jimmy Sain , Johnny Sanguillen , Manny Sauer , Hank Schacht , Al Schaefer , Germany Schalk , Ray Schang , Wally Schoendienst , Red Schreckengost , Ossie Schulte , Frank Scott , Everett Scott , Jack Selkirk , George Severeid , Hank Sewell , Joe Sewell , Luke Sewell , Rip Seymour , Cy Shantz, Bobby Sheckard , Jimmy Sherdel , Bill Shocker , Urban Short , Chris Siebert , Sonny Sievers , Roy Simmons, Curt Sisti , Sibby Smith , Earl Smith , Reggie Smith , Sherry Sparks , Tully Stahl , Jake Stanky , Eddie Stanley , Mickey Staub , Rusty Steinfeldt , Harry Stephens , Vern Stephenson , Riggs Stottlemyre , Mel Street , Gabby Suhr , Gus Sukeforth , Clyde Sutton , Don Sweeney , Bill Tannehill , Jesse Taylor , Ben Tebbetts , Birdie Tenace , Gene Tenney , Fred Thevenow , Tommy Thomas , Ira Thomson , Bobby Tiant, Luis Tiernan , Mike Tinker , Joe Tobin , Jim Toney , Fred Torgeson, Earl Torre, Joe Torrez , Mike Travis, Cecil Trouppe , Quincy Trout , Dizzy Trucks , Virgil Turner , Terry Uhle , George Valo , Elmer Van Haltren , George Vander Meer , Johnny Veach , Bobby Vernon , Mickey Walberg , Rube Walker , Harry Walters , Bucky Wambsganss , Bill Waner , Lloyd Warfield , Frank Warneke , Lon Watson , Bob Welch , Mickey Werber , Billy Wertz, Vic West , Sam Westrum , Wes White , Sol White , Will Whitehill , Earl Williams , Cy Williams , Ken Williamson , Ned Willis , Vic Wills, Maury Wilson , Hack Wilson , Jim Wilson , Jimmie Witt , Whitey Wood , Joe Wood , Wilbur Wright , Glenn Wyatt , Whit Wynn , Jimmy Yamamoto , Koji Yerkes , Steve York , Rudy Young , Pep Youngs , Ross Zachary , Tom Zimmer , Chief
Code:Abe , Iso Ashford, Emmet Autry, Gene Bancroft , Frank Barlick, Al Berger , Sy Brickhouse , Jack Buck , Jack Bulkely , Morgan Busch , Augie Cambria , Joe Campbell , Jim Canel, Buck Caray, Harry Carrigan, Bill Caylor , O. P. Chandler, Happy Chylak , Nestor Conlan , Jocko Cooper , Andy Cummings , Candy Dark , Alvin Davids , Bob Dinneen , Bill Doubleday , Abner Dreyfuss , Barney Dyer , Eddie Dykes , Jimmy Elias , Al Munro Evans, Billy Feller, Sherm Fergsuon, Bob Fetzer, John Foster , John B. Fowler, Bud Frick, Ford Fullerton , Hugh Giles , Warren Gleason , Kid Gonzalez , Mike Gowdy , Curt Greenlee, Gus Grimm, Charlie Haak , Howie Haney , Fred Harridge, Willie Harris , Bucky Harris, Vic Harwell, Ernie Heydler, John Hillerich , John Hodges, Gil Hodges, Russ Houk , Ralph Howsam, Bob Hubbard , Cal Hutchinson , Fred Jennings , Hughie Jobe , Frank Krichell, Paul Kuenn , Harvey Kuhn , Bowie Lanigan, Ernest Lardner , Ring Leavitt, Jr. , Charles W. Luque , Dolf MacPhail, Lee Manley , Effa Martin , Billy Mauch , Gene McCarthy , Tommy McGowan, Bill Mendez , Jose Mills , A. G. Mizuhara, Shigeru Moran , Pat Murnane, Tim Murtaugh, Danny Mutrie , Jim Navin , Frank Nelson , Lindsey Norworth, Jack O'Day, Hank O'Doul, Lefty O'Neill, Buck O'Neill, Steve Osborn , Frank Pasquel, Jorge Patkin, Max Pesky , Johnny Pompez , Alex Pulliam, Harry Ramirez, Felo Reese , Jimmie Rice, Grantland Richards, Paul Ritter , Lawrence Rizzuto , Phil Robinson , Wilbert Schoendienst, Red Sewell , Luke Sheppard, Bob Smith, Red Stallings , George Street, Gabby Thayer , Ernest Tyson, Ty van der Ahe, Chris Warfield , Frank Weyer , Lee Wilson , Horace Wrigley, Phil Yawkey, Tom
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
My ballot
Players
1. Reggie Jackson
2. Alejandro Oms
3. Jose Mendez
4. Luis Tiant
5. Bob Lemon
6. Hughie Jennings
7. Roger Bresnahan
8. Joe Torre
9. Jimmy Wynn
10. Joe Kelley
11. Willard Brown
12. Charlie Keller
Contributors
1. Phil Rizzuto
2. Vic Harris
3. Iso Abe
4. Tim Murnane
5. Al Munro Elias
Reggie Jackson goes to the top of my ballot, and I'm adding Willard Brown and Charlie Keller in the 11th and 12th spots. On the contributor side, Al Munro Elias enters the ballot. Only three more years until Buck O'Neill gets credit for both his contributions to the Negro League Museum and Ken Burns' Baseball, which will vault him to the top spot or two on my ballot.
Last edited by jalbright; 02-05-2011 at 01:15 PM.
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Registered User
Players:
1. Reggie Jackson
2. Jimmy Wynn
3. Reggie Smith
4. Bob Elliott
5. Roger Bresnahan
6. Bob Lemon
7. Jimmy Sheckard
8. Joe Torre
9. Hughie Jennings
10. Alejandro Oms
11. Sal Bando
12. Cal McVey
Contributors:
1. Harry Caray
2. Phil Rizzuto
3. Ford Frick
4. Bob Ferguson
5. O.P. Caylor
With 3 names daparting and only 1 strong newcomer on the player's side, Reggie Jackson goes into slot one, Sal Bando rejoins my ballot at slot 11 and Cal McVey debuts in slot 12. On the contributor's side, O.P. Caylor was next in my queue with Iso Abe, Happy Chandler, Jocko Conlan, Candy Cummings, Al Munro Elias, Bud Fowler, Gus Greenlee, Vic Harris, Gil Hodges, Ring Lardner, Billy Martin, Shigeru Mizuhara, Lefty O'Doul, Red Schoendienst all being strongly considered at this point.
In my consideration set on the players side are Jake Beckley, Chief Bender, Wally Berger, Max Bishop, Willard Brown, Lou Brock, Perucho Cepeda, Cupid Childs, Hugh Duffy, Bill Freehan, Burleigh Grimes, Dummy Hoy, Catfish Hunter, Charley Jones, Fielder Jones, Joe Kelley, Rabbit Maranville, Jose Mendez, Thurman Munson, Graig Nettles, Don Newcombe, Tony Perez, Lip Pike, Jack Quinn, Sam Rice, Pete Rose, Eppa Rixey, Edd Roush, Wally Schang, Joe Sewell, Urban Shocker, Rusty Staub, Don Sutton, Luis Tiant Jr., George Van Haltren. Some may make my ballot, some may not depending on who we are looking at in terms of newcomers.
2004 & 2007
Players:
1. Reggie Jackson
2. Addie Joss
3. Alejandro Oms
4. Wally Berger
5. Jose Mendez
6. Luis Tiant
7. Roger Bresnahan
8. Bob Lemon
9. Willard Brown
10. Joe Torre
11. Hughie Jennings
12. Don Sutton
Contributors:
1. Ford Frick
2. Gus Greenlee
3. Phil Rizzuto
4. Vic Harris
5. Iso Abe
Bleed the Freak
1 Reggie Jackson
2 Hughie Jennings
3 Charlie Keller
4 Joe Kelley
5 Don Sutton
6 Dick Lundy
7 Jimmy Sheckard
8 Phil Rizzuto
9 Alejandro Oms
10 Jose Mendez
11 Jimmy Wynn
12 Don Newcombe
Carew (1), Palmer (3), and Hilton Smith (Off ballot - but in my PHOF) were elected in 1990. Newcomer Reggie Jackson takes over the #1 spot. I have dropped my support for Masaaki Koyama enlight of limited evidence displaying his greatness, although he MAY be worthy of a ballot selection. Newcomers to my 1991 ballot are Jose Mendez and Don Newcombe.
A short write-up to stump a new face: Don Newcombe - who has received no support before:
Cy Young quality campaigns in 1949 and 59. Pitched at an all-star level each season from 50-57, excluding the war shortened 54. Deserving of at-least two additional all-star war credit campaigns in 52 and 53 due to service in Korea. Deserving of MLE credit in 46-48 with one all-star year and a filler campaign, giving him 10 all-star type seasons. Outstanding hitter for a hurler aids his placement. Newcombe would help fill a gap of negro league hurlers and a decade that is light on electees (1950s). Pitched in the much stronger integrated NL of the 1950s. Compares to on the cusp electee Bob Lemon.
For those supporting Addie Joss, I fully understand his brilliance while healthy. His ERA and ERA+ are off the charts quality. Unfortunately, Joss career is short, in years and innings pitched, particularly when compared with his peers. His in-season durability/IP were not of the work horse variety either.
When viewing WAR or Joe Dimino's PA translation of Clay Davenport's DERA, I find Joss as similar in quality to Noodles Hahn, a Joss contemporary. While Joss had a slightly longer career, Hahn was more of a workhorse, offsetting a chunk of the IP difference. While raw WAR finds Joss and Hahn to be neck and neck, Hahn's peak was much more impressive, yielding greater value to his teams. Joss was a stinker with the stick, while Hahn was a shade better. For Joss supporters, do you like Hahn's candidacy?
Also, a Joss contemporary Vic Willis has a similar peak argument, but adds prime and filler seasons to his career.
Any Willis fans in the electorate?
10 hurlers from my personal Hall that are eligible include:
Don Sutton, Jose Mendez, Don Newcombe, Urban Shocker, Luis Tiant, Masaaki Koyama, Eddie Cicotte, Billy Pierce, Eppa Rixey, and Vic Willis.
6 Intriguing candidates just shy of my personal Hall:
Wilbur Cooper, Babe Adams, Jim Whitney, Larry Jackson, Bucky Walters, and Dick Redding.
Last edited by Jar of Flies; 02-06-2011 at 04:53 PM.
1. Reggie Jackson
2. Lou Brock
3. Joe Torre
4. Don Sutton
5. Edd Roush
6. Frank Howard
7. Orlando Cepeda
8. Bill Freehan
9. Cupid Childs
10. Alejandro Oms
11. Tony Perez
12. Dave Bancroft
edit: queing up are: Ray Dandridge, Pinson, Evers, Maranville, Leach, Reggie Smith and Tommy John to name a few.
1. O.P. Caylor
2. Red Smith
3. Billy Evans
4. Tommy McCarthy
5. Bob Ferguson
Last edited by PVNICK; 02-08-2011 at 03:45 AM. Reason: Hilton Smith was elected
OSHA-certified Moderator
1. Reggie Jackson
2. Burleigh Grimes
3. Edd Roush
4. Bob Lemon
5. Addie Joss
6. Luis Aparicio
7. Don Sutton
8. Lefty Gomez
9. Alejandro Oms
10. Jose Mendez
11. Hughie Jennings
12. Roger Bresnahan
Contributors
1. Billy Evans
2. Ford Frick
3. Gus Greenlee
4. Happy Chandler
5. O.P. Caylor
Tom Tresh George Kell Mark Fidrych Bob Feller
Ernie Harwell Soupy Sales Alex Chilton Sparky Anderson
Joe Nuxhall Gary Carter MCA Emanuel Steward
Sonny Elliot Dave Brubeck Earl Weaver Stan Musial
Jonathan Winters Neil Armstrong Roger Ebert Anthony Zahler
Ray Manzarek
a posse ad esse
Players
1. Reggie Jackson
2. Willard Brown
3. Joe Torre
4. Addie Joss
5. Roger Bresnahan
6. Don Sutton
7. Bob Lemon
8. Eppa Rixey
9. Alejandro Oms
10. Jose Mendez
11. Edd Roush
12. Joe Sewell
He's on, he's off... anyways, expect me to start voting for Rollie Fingers before most do. He's #1 pitcher on the waiting list. Bonds fits in #12 among position players, Tenace #23, and Oliver #30. Tenace will probably rise as I look at him more closely (essentially, picking apart his production at C vs 1B), but for now I have him behind Thurman Munson. Hunter slides in #28 among pitchers, behind Herb Pennock. Probably won't see the light of day.
Contributors
1. Paul Krichell
2. Al Munro Elias
3. Billy Martin
4. Danny Murtaugh
5. Charlie Grimm
With the impending election of Hughie Jennings as a player, I've shuffled my contributors' queue a little bit. Martin and Grimm round out the managers I'm comfortable with... Mutrie's still a possibility to return, and then we have the likes of Harris, Houk, Mizuhara and Shoendienst. Next in line remains Howsam and Berger, with Frick if necessary.
September 16, 2012: The Losing Streak Ends
a posse ad esse
I have Newcombe listed #20 among pitching candidates between Bucky Walters and Lew Burdette. With only 10 seasons, 2150 IP (as a starter) and a 114 ERA+, he would be comparable to Lemon had he logged 700 more IP. I'm assuming this is where the Korean War credit comes in. Initially I figured he simply did not put in enough time, but I'll consider '52-'53.Originally Posted by Jar of Flies
IMO, Joss did more in his nine seasons than Newcome in ten. Joss wasn't a consistent work-horse but he did log in his 250-300 IP most seasons and finished 5th (338.2) and 2nd (325.0) in back to back seasons. Yes, Newcombe hit much better than Joss but I don't think that makes up enough difference. Newcombe was top ten for five seasons bracketing his war service... so it certainly appears he was ridden 'till the wheels fell off, and that may give him another credit in my queue. But he's not jumping Joss and his 142 ERA+ and major league record WHIP.For those supporting Addie Joss, I fully understand his brilliance while healthy. His ERA and ERA+ are off the charts quality. Unfortunately, Joss career is short, in years and innings pitched, particularly when compared with his peers. His in-season durability/IP were not of the work horse variety either.
It's a good question. How much difference is 1 year, 300 IP, 10 points of ERA+, 1.3 WAR, etc etc? I agree Hahn is a poor man's Joss, and the difference isn't that big. Problem is, I can find more pitchers with a comparable peak to Hahn's career... case in point Chief Bender and his best eight seasons (1661 IP, 132 ERA+, 1.066 WHIP, 135-56 record). Yeah, it's a judgement call; suffice to say, Hahn is in my queue.When viewing WAR or Joe Dimino's PA translation of Clay Davenport's DERA, I find Joss as similar in quality to Noodles Hahn, a Joss contemporary. While Joss had a slightly longer career, Hahn was more of a workhorse, offsetting a chunk of the IP difference. While raw WAR finds Joss and Hahn to be neck and neck, Hahn's peak was much more impressive, yielding greater value to his teams. Joss was a stinker with the stick, while Hahn was a shade better. For Joss supporters, do you like Hahn's candidacy?
Willis is in my queue, #9 among pitchers. I actually hope he gets elected before we're through, but I know it will be a close shave if he does.Also, a Joss contemporary Vic Willis has a similar peak argument, but adds prime and filler seasons to his career.
Any Willis fans in the electorate?
For most of the names in your personal hall, I am either voting for them already (Sutton, Mendez, Rixey) or they are in the top ten among pitchers in my queue (Shocker, Tiant, Pierce, Willis). Koyama and Cicotte are #s 13 and 14, respectively. And there's always a chance I'll do a little shuffling, since I don't think the difference between these pitchers is that much. Hope that helps!10 hurlers from my personal Hall that are eligible include:
Don Sutton, Jose Mendez, Don Newcombe, Urban Shocker, Luis Tiant, Masaaki Koyama, Eddie Cicotte, Billy Pierce, Eppa Rixey, and Vic Willis.
6 Intriguing candidates just shy of my personal Hall:
Wilbur Cooper, Babe Adams, Jim Whitney, Larry Jackson, Bucky Walters, and Dick Redding.
Last edited by J W; 02-07-2011 at 11:34 AM.
September 16, 2012: The Losing Streak Ends
Registered User
In addition to Noodles Hahn, where are you on Harry Brecheen and his 1907.2, 134 ERA+, 1.188 WHIP, 133-92 and Smoky Joe Wood with his 1434 IP, 146 ERA+, 1.087 WHIP, 117-57 + his 110 OPS+ in 2272 PA as a batter?
I see Joss as belonging to this group of short career, what if pitchers. All of them have intriguing careers, but what makes Joss stand out over them? When looking at Smoky Joe Woods, his total WAR is very close to Joss, but he had the added value of being a very good hitter and position player in addition to a pitcher.
Researcher/advocate/mod
PVNick, I'll PM you on this as well, but we elected Smith last election. Your ballot is valid, with #s 11 and 12 moved up one each and #12 vacant. I'd prefer that you fill that empty spot and make your own fix, however.
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
a posse ad esse
Arbitrary cutoff I suppose. Wood only had 2 seasons with over 200 IP and a third with 196. 1434 career IP is roughly 62% of Joss' 2327 career IP. Wood's 5640 BF are 63% of Joss' 8891 BF. Not enough for me. And I Plus I should mention that I give Joss a little bit of credit for premature death (not much though, nor should he get much).
Now, spread Dizzy Dean's success out more among his 12 seasons and you essentially get Harry Brecheen. Of note, Dean was elected without my vote, but he would have been #9 in the pitching queue instead of Willis. Brecheen is #18. Dean is higher because of his consecutive #1-#2-#2 MVP seasons.
September 16, 2012: The Losing Streak Ends
a posse ad esse
I should state that I do not believe my opinion is the ultimate truth on the matter. I enjoy the gray-area debate more than the candidates we usher in first-ballot.
I'm compiling my qeue one season at a time, as we go along. I take the new candidates and look at them for maybe 10 minutes each, then find the spot in my queue (one for position players, one for pitchers) where I see a similar player. Then I make that point A and compare players until I get to point B (either up or down in the queue). Then I narrow it down until said player is slotted. That's the process. Sometimes I need to look at the list as a whole and shuffle it a bit... but it doesn't happen often and there aren't many ripple effects.
I don't have a personal HOF or a personal all-time ranking. In a way, this project is creating one.
September 16, 2012: The Losing Streak Ends
I edited the original post (#13). Sorry for missing that.
Researcher/advocate/mod
It happens to all of us eventually. Not a problem.
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Registered User
1 Reggie Jackson
2 Burleigh Grimes
3 Eppa Rixey
4 Bob Lemon
5 Addie Joss
6 Luis Tiant
7 Don Sutton
8 Ed Roush
9 Lou Brock
10 Rog Bresnahan
11 Hugh Jennings
12 Joe Torre
Researcher/advocate/mod
We now have a quorum on the player side, and have eight on the contributor side.
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Registered User
Skimming the bottom rungs of other ladders, it's good to see Hugh Jennings and Cal McVey pick up votes. ... Probably I will add Roger Bresnahan, join the bandwagon as it rolls to the front. And Don Sutton who might have completed my 11-name ballot last year. ... More than almost anyone here, I am impressed by Dave Bancroft's record, and I am happy with his place in Cooperstown. I doubt that I will vote for him in this project, however.
Re the contributors, I wonder about a couple of candidates with one keen supporter, scout Paul Krichell (JW) and writer Red Smith (PVNICK). Do you consider them influential in their fields or simply standout achievers?
Last edited by Paul Wendt; 02-09-2011 at 03:34 PM.
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