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Thread: 1991 Best of Baseball Election thread

  1. #1
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    1991 Best of Baseball Election thread

    This is our fifty-sixth election in this project. The entire rules follow.

    This election will end at 11:59:59 PM EST on February 18, 2011.

    The prior election, and the ballots of the 1990 voters, are in this thread
    Last edited by jalbright; 02-08-2011 at 01:26 PM.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  2. #2
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    Rules

    1) All BBF users in good standing may participate. However, if there is more than one vote being cast from any one computer or IP, it must be cleared in advance. Should there be unannounced multiple votes from the same IP, I will investigate the circumstances, and all user names involved may be barred from this project as a result, and all but one of the multiple usernames permanently banned from the site. I only anticipate exceptions for family members living in the same home, but I will entertain requests on other bases. Please note that I and the other mods who participate in the project have the capability of determining the IP from which posts come, and I for one intend to monitor same. I have had to deal with a single user manipulating a project with multiple votes, and I don't intend to repeat the experience.

    2) Elections will require a 10 voter quorum. If we do not get ten voters and there are candidate(s) who would be elected no matter what the voters needed to make a quorum did, those candidate(s) will be inducted. Otherwise, no one will be inducted. Further, if we fail to meet a quorum in two of any four consecutive elections, the portion(s) of the project failing to meet the quorum requirement will end. If, for instance, we're doing fine on the player end but not the contributor end, I would drop the contributor end under this rule.

    3) We will start in 1936, just as Cooperstown did. For the first election (1936), voters will rank their top 20, taking 10. After that we will go to having voters rank their top 12 players. Points awarded 12-11-10, etc. We will take the top five through 1940, then top three players per year elected until 2010, then two per year. If a voter does not number his selections, I will try to get him/her to do so. If they do not do so before the end of the election period, I may in my sole discretion invalidate the ballot. I have included this provision in order to ease the process of recording the votes. On another point, I know, the 1936 backlog is huge--but that was a historical issue they couldn't avoid, so neither will we.

    4) We will also have a contributor ballot, which will elect one a year through 1985, then one every three (3) years. Contributors will be ranked 1 through 5, with points awarded 5-4-3-2-1. Voters may choose to participate in either one of the ballots or both.

    5) It is permissible to vote for a candidate on both the contributor and player lists.

    6) You are allowed to change your ballot at any time the voting is open. However, if you change your ballot, you've got to notify me (jalbright) by PM or by a new post in the voting thread, or the changes likely will not be registered.

    7) Players are eligible at the later of age 45 or the first year thereafter in which the player does not play. If the birthdate is not known, add five years to the first time the player misses a season and has less than 10 games the next season. There is an exception for early death, in which case the year of death plus two will be used if that yields an earlier date.

    8) Contributors become eligible at age 65 or in the year of death plus two. whichever comes first.

    9) Each election will run for approximately two weeks unless expressly altered by the project manager, contributors and players done simultaneously.

    10) No one is excluded from being a candidate, regardless of the league they played in, except those elected in either the contributor or player ballots. At that point, they are removed from further consideration. If there are players who returned to the Negro Leagues or Japan after going to the majors, the departure from the majors will be their career end date for purposes of this project.

    11) The standard for including a player on one's ballot is that the player must in the voter's opinion be among the very best eligible players (preferably the number voted on, but if a voter wishes to support someone they feel is 15th in a 12 person ballot instead of one of the top 12, it's too close for anyone to reasonably object. On the other hand, supporting the 25th best eligible candidate on a 12 person ballot is probably beyond the pale). I reserve the power to invalidate ballots which I do not feel are a reasonably knowledgeable, good faith effort to rank the players. One issue I am quite concerned about is that I do not want to see what clearly appear to be attempts to manipulate the ballot so as to elect a candidate. In isolation, I probably could live with this, but if it became a widely used tactic, the project would devolve into something I have no desire to be associated with. Moreover, I think that this position asks everyone else to cast legitimate votes so that you can manipulate the system to favor your pet candidates. I cannot accept that, as it strikes me as unfair to other voters. For example, you can't expect to favor even a legitimate HOF candidate like Bill Dahlen over Babe Ruth to get Dahlen elected without being asked to provide a reasonable justification for ranking Dahlen over Ruth. If you can provide a reasonable justification in that scenario, the ballot will stand. If not, you will be asked to make a change. I realize voters will sometimes have idiosyncratic choices, and I try to allow for that. However, a clear flouting of a consensus is apt to be met with a request that the ballot be justified pursuant to this rule. Certainly, a reasonable justification does not indicate in essence simply that you want Dahlen elected. Furthermore, if I invalidate multiple ballots by the same individual as failing to meet this rule, that individual will forever lose the right to have his/her ballots counted. Voters are encouraged to consider character, sportsmanship, and compliance with the rules and spirit of baseball in their rankings of players.

    12) I will post lists of eligible players and contributors before each election. If you have a question about the eligibility of a candidate, please ask. I will provide a list of future eligibility dates as well.

    13) My eligibility lists come from all persons in the BBF HOF, BBTF Hall of Merit, and Cooperstown, plus all persons getting a vote in a BBF HOF election in the past year and a half or in a BBWAA election. This is a relatively comprehensive list, and thus I must request that if you want another candidate included, you provide some justification for why said candidate is worthy of getting a vote in this project. The main area I think this might come into play is if a voter supports a person who was eligible for the final selections from the recent pre WWII or Negro League committees but not on my master list. That fact alone would serve as ample justification for putting said candidate on the list. We may learn more about Cuban ball or what have you and thus include others after a case is made for them, however. The contributor list is undoubtedly not as comprehensive, and this fact will be taken into consideration. For players, any request for a multiple time all-star in the all-star era will be approved. Players of that quality will generally be approved without much ado. However, when a player lacks that kind of qualification, I will likely ask for you to get a second from among our voters via a post in the current election thread. When in doubt, I will also require a second for suggested contributors. If a second is forthcoming, the player will be added. If not, the request will be rejected. I want to limit requests and seconds to players or contributors you actually might vote for.

    14) Other than the sportsmanship and character issues, players are to be evaluated solely upon their play. I would prefer that if a player is qualified by his play standing alone that he be elected on that basis. However, a candidate may only be elected either as a contributor or a player, but not both. Contributors are the area where the entire body of work during his career in the sport, including his play, managing, scouting, executive, writing, broadcasting or other work in the sport is relevant. Contributors are to be ranked based on who the voter thinks is most worthy of induction into the Contributor group in this project.

    15) Any ballot with two (2) or more spots unfilled with eligible candidates is invalid. In the event of the listing of ineligible names, I will try to notify the voter so that he/she can correct the ballot before the end of the voting period. If the change is made timely, it will count. If not, and there are two or more invalid names, the ballot will not be considered valid. If there is only one, the ineligible name will be stricken and all names after it on the affected ballot will be moved up one spot.

    16) Any players listed beyond the 12th place for any ballot but the first (in which case it is 20th place) will be ignored. If more than one person is listed as tied for the last available place and the ballot is oversize, all names will be dropped, which may lead to the invalidation of the ballot.

    17) Ties are not permitted in ballot listings. I reserve the right to invalidate ballots for use of ties in the rankings, be it within a single ballot or over the course of several ballots. If the voter does not correct such a listing voluntarily, except in the case of an oversize ballot tie for the last eligible place, if do not invalidate the ballot, I will choose the placement of the two "tied" candidates, generally preferring the candidate preferred by the other voters.

    18) For any ties between candidates straddling the in/out line of selections, the first thing considered is the ranking of the candidates by the ballots cast. If there are more than two candidates tied, use a 2-1-0 or whatever is appropriate for the number of players tied system. If a voter does not list a candidate, he receives zero points in the tiebreaker procedure. Once one person separates from the tied group, restart with the remaining candidates until there are only as many candidates as the rules call for being elected. If they remain tied after this process, the candidate with the most votes received wins. If it is still tied after that, those with the most #1 votes as the next step, then the most #2 votes and so on to see if that breaks the tie. If not, we will induct all candidates who remain tied at that point.

    19) One thing we're going to have to be aware of is the timeline in the case of at least a few contributors. Two which jump out at me are Buck O'Neill, 1976, and Branch Rickey, 1946. I intend to eventually vote for both men, but in 1946, Jackie Robinson was still in Montreal. Really, Branch should wait until at least 1947 after Jackie's success in the majors to get credit for that move. If you think Rickey belongs in the top 5 in 1946 without his role in breaking the color line, that's fine--but he shouldn't get credit for that important success until it actually happened. Buck O'Neill did some important things up until 1976, but after that he was in Ken Burns' Baseball and he was instrumental in the establishment of the Negro Leagues Hall of Fame (both occurred in or around 1994). If you think he belongs based on accomplishments before those two things, that's perfectly acceptable, but please don't credit him with them before they actually happened.

    20) I will maintain a thread of the project's history and rules which will provide a listing of all elected candidates.

    21) Feel free to ask questions by either sending jalbright a PM, or by posting a question in voting thread
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  3. #3
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    The players who become eligible in 1991 are:
    Code:
    Bonds , Bobby
    Fingers , Rollie
    Hunter , Catfish
    Jackson , Reggie
    Lee , Bill (Spaceman)
    Murcer , Bobby
    Oliver , Al
    Tenace , Gene
    Torrez , Mike
    Watson , Bob 
    Yamamoto , Koji
    On the contributor side, we add these names in 1991:
    Code:
    Davids , Bob 
    Kuhn , Bowie
    Martin  , Billy
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  4. #4
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    The 1990 player candidates who were not elected had these results in the that election:
    Code:
    Players…………..	votes	pts
    Oms, Alejandro	10	52
    Lemon, Bob	10	51
    Mendez , Jose	9	48
    Joss , Addie	5	41
    Jennings , Hughie	6	40
    Tiant, Luis	5	36
    Sutton, Don	6	33
    Torre, Joe	6	31
    Bresnahan , Roger	7	29
    Grimes , Burleigh	4	28
    Rixey , Eppa	4	28
    Roush , Edd 	6	28
    Brock, Lou	3	23
    Wynn, Jimmy	6	22
    Kelley , Joe	4	20
    Keller , Charlie	2	19
    Brown, Willard	3	16
    McVey , Cal	2	15
    Beckley , Jake	3	12
    Berger , Wally	2	12
    Richardson , Hardy	1	10
    Smith, Reggie	1	9
    Elliott, Bob	1	8
    Sheckard , Jimmy	2	8
    Howard, Frank	1	6
    Lundy , Dick	1	6
    Aparicio, Luis	1	5
    Cepeda, Orlando	1	5
    Koyama, Masaaki	1	5
    Freehan, Bill	1	4
    Childs , Cupid	1	3
    Gomez, Lefty	1	3
    Rizzuto , Phil	1	3
    Matlock, Leroy	1	2
    Rice , Sam..	1	2
    Pike , Lip....	1	1
    The 1990 contributor candidates who were not elected had these results in the that election:
    Code:
    Contributors……..	votes	pts
    Frick, Ford.	5	18
    Rizzuto, Phil	5	16
    Greenlee, Gus	4	14
    Caray, Harry	2	9
    Caylor , O. P.	2	8
    Evans, Billy..	2	8
    Chandler, Happy	2	7
    Ferguson, Bob	3	6
    Harris, Vic..	4	6
    Jobe, Frank	1	5
    Krichell, Paul	1	5
    Murnane, Tim	3	5
    Jennings , Hughie	1	4
    Smith, Red.	1	4
    Murtaugh, Danny	1	3
    Abe, Iso.....	1	2
    McCarthy, Tommy	1	2
    Elias, Al Munro	1	1
    Giles , Warren	1	1
    I strongly suggest that you pay attention to this list, as the leaders of the holdovers are likely to join any strong newcomer candidates as the leaders for winning induction.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  5. #5
    Join Date
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    Location
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    Posts
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    Players
    1. Reggie Jackson
    2. Alejandro Oms
    3. Bob Lemon
    4. Luis Tiant
    5. Jose Mendez
    6. Joe Torre
    7. Jimmy Wynn
    8. Don Sutton
    9. Edd Roush
    10. Hughie Jennings
    11. Roger Bresnahan
    12. Charlie Keller


    Contributors
    1. Gus Greenlee
    2. O.P. Caylor
    3. Al Munro Elias
    4. Bob Davids
    5. Vic Harris
    "The value of a stat is directly proportional to how good it makes Steve Garvey look." -- Nerdlinger

  6. #6
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    Posts
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    01. Reggie Jackson
    02. Luis Tiant
    03. Alejandro Oms
    04. Eppa Rixey
    05. Jose Mendezd
    06. Wally Berger
    07. Burleigh Grimes
    08. Jake Beckley
    09. Bob Lemon
    10. Jimmy Wynn
    11. Koji Yamamoto
    12. Willard Brown

    01. Frank Jobe
    02. Ford Frick
    03. Phil Rizzuto
    04. Vic Harris
    05. Billy Martin

  7. #7
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    Members of the Best of Baseball Hall. Last election's inductees are in red.

    Players
    Code:
    Hank Aaron
    Pete Alexander
    Dick Allen
    Cap Anson
    Luke Appling
    Richie Ashburn
    Earl Averill
    Frank Baker
    Ernie Banks
    Ross Barnes
    John Beckwith
    Cool Papa Bell
    Charlie Bennett
    Yogi Berra
    Akira Bessho
    Lou Boudreau
    Ken Boyer
    Dan Brouthers
    Mordecai Brown
    Ray Brown
    Jim Bunning
    Jesse Burkett
    Roy Campanella
    Rod Carew
    Max Carey
    Steve Carlton
    Bob Caruthers
    Oscar Charleston
    Fred Clarke
    John Clarkson
    Roberto Clemente
    Ty Cobb
    Mickey Cochrane
    Eddie Collins
    Jimmy Collins
    Roger Connor
    Stan Coveleski
    Sam Crawford
    Joe Cronin
    Bill Dahlen
    George Davis
    Dizzy Dean
    Ed Delahanty
    Bill Dickey
    Martin Dihigo
    Joe DiMaggio
    Larry Doby
    Bobby Doerr
    Don Drysdale
    Buck Ewing
    Red Faber
    Bob Feller
    Wes Ferrell
    Elmer Flick
    Whitey Ford
    Willie Foster
    Nellie Fox
    Jimmie Foxx
    Frankie Frisch
    Pud Galvin
    Lou Gehrig
    Charlie Gehringer
    Bob Gibson
    Josh Gibson
    Jack Glasscock
    Joe Gordon
    George Gore
    Goose Goslin
    Frank Grant
    Hank Greenberg
    Heinie Groh
    Lefty Grove
    Stan Hack
    Billy Hamilton
    Isao Harimoto
    Gabby Hartnett
    Harry Heilmann
    Billy Herman
    Pete Hill
    Paul Hines
    Rogers Hornsby
    Carl Hubbell
    Kazuhisa Inao
    Monte Irvin
    Joe Jackson
    Ferguson Jenkins
    Grant "Home Run"Johnson
    Walter Johnson
    Al Kaline
    Masaichi Kaneda
    Tim Keefe
    Willie Keeler
    King Kelly
    Harmon Killebrew
    Ralph Kiner
    Sandy Koufax
    Nap LaJoie
    Buck Leonard
    Pop Lloyd
    Ted Lyons
    Biz Mackey
    Sherry Magee
    Mickey Mantle
    Juan Marichal
    Eddie Mathews
    Christy Mathewson
    Willie Mays
    Willie McCovey
    Joe McGinnity
    Bid McPhee
    Joe Medwick
    Minnie Minoso
    Johnny Mize
    Dobie Moore
    Joe Morgan
    Stan Musial
    Shigeo Nagashima
    Hal Newhouser
    Kid Nichols
    Phil Niekro
    Katsuya Nomura
    Sadaharu Oh
    Jim O'Rourke
    Mel Ott
    Satchel Paige
    Jim Palmer
    Gaylord Perry
    Eddie Plank
    Charlie Radbourn
    Pee Wee Reese
    Robin Roberts
    Brooks Robinson
    Frank Robinson
    Jackie Robinson
    Bullet Joe Rogan
    Pete Rose
    Red Ruffing
    Amos Rusie
    Babe Ruth
    Ron Santo
    Louis Santop
    Tom Seaver
    Al Simmons
    George Sisler
    Enos Slaughter
    Hilton Smith
    Duke Snider
    Warren Spahn
    Tris Speaker
    Victor Starffin
    Willie Stargell
    Joe Start
    Turkey Stearnes
    Harry Stovey
    Mule Suttles
    Ezra Sutton
    Bill Terry
    Sam Thompson
    Cristobal Torriente
    Pie Traynor
    Dazzy Vance
    Arky Vaughan
    Rube Waddell
    Honus Wagner
    Bobby Wallace
    Ed Walsh
    Paul Waner
    John M. Ward
    Willie Wells
    Zack Wheat
    Deacon White
    Hoyt Wilhelm
    Billy Williams
    Smoky Joe Williams
    Ted Williams
    Jud Wilson
    George Wright
    Early Wynn
    Carl Yastrzemski
    Cy Young
    Contributors
    Code:
    Doc Adams
    Mel Allen
    Walter Alston
    Red Barber
    Ed Barrow
    Buzzue Bavasi
    Ed Bolden
    Alexander Cartwright
    Henry Chadwick
    Frank Chance
    Charlie Commiskey
    Charles Conlon
    Tom Connolly
    Jim Creighton
    Jack Dunn
    Leo Durocher
    Rube Foster
    Clark Griffith
    Ned Hanlon
    William Hulbert
    Miller Huggins
    Ban Johnson
    Tetsuharu Kawakami
    Bill Klem
    Kenesaw Landis
    Al Lopez
    Connie Mack
    Larry MacPhail
    Joe McCarthy
    John McGraw
    Bill McKechnie
    Marvin Miller
    Walter O'Malley
    Dickey Pearce
    Cum Posey
    A. J. Reach
    Francis Richter
    Branch Rickey
    Jacob Ruppert
    Frank Selee
    Ben Shibe
    Matsutaro Shoriki
    Billy Southworth
    Al Spalding
    Alfred Spink
    J. G. T. Spink
    Casey Stengel
    C. I. Taylor
    Kazuto Tsuruoka
    Bill Veeck
    George Weiss
    Sol White
    J. L. Wilkinson
    Harry Wright
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  8. #8
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    The complete list of eligible players:
    Code:
    Adams , Babe
    Adams , Bobby
    Adams , Sparky
    Allen , Johnny
    Alou , Jesus
    Alou , Matty
    Alou, Felipe
    Altrock , Nick
    Aparicio, Luis
    Archer , Jimmy
    Arlett , Buzz
    Austin , Jimmy
    Avila, Bobby
    Bailey , Bob 
    Bancroft , Dave
    Bando , Sal
    Barry , Jack
    Bartell , Dick
    Battin , Joe
    Bauer , Hank
    Beaumont , Ginger
    Beckert, Glenn
    Beckley , Jake
    Belanger , Mark
    Bender , Chief
    Benton , Larry
    Berg , Moe
    Bergen , Marty
    Berger , Wally
    Berry , Charlie
    Bibby , Jim 
    Bigbee , Carson
    Billingham , Jack
    Bishop , Max
    Blackwell , Ewell
    Blades , Ray
    Blair , Paul
    Blass , Steve
    Blue , Lu
    Bluege , Ossie
    Bodie , Ping
    Boley , Joe
    Bond , Tommy
    Bonds , Bobby
    Bottomley , Jim
    Bowa , Larry
    Boyer , Clete
    Bradley , Bill
    Brecheen , Harry
    Breitenstein , Ted
    Bresnahan , Roger
    Brewer , Jim 
    Bridges , Tommy
    Brock, Lou
    Brown , Willard
    Browning , Pete
    Bruton, Bill
    Burdette , Lew
    Burgess , Smoky  
    Burns , George J.
    Bush  , Joe
    Bush , Donie
    Bush , Guy
    Cadore , Leon
    Camilli , Dolph
    Camnitz , Howie
    Campaneris , Bert
    Cardenal , Jose
    Cardenas , Leo 
    Carrasquel. Chico 
    Carrigan , Bill
    Carroll, Clay
    Case , George
    Cash, Norm
    Cavaretta , Phil
    Cepeda , Orlando
    Cepeda , Perucho
    Chandler , Spud
    Chapman , Ben
    Chapman , Ray
    Chapman , Sam
    Chase , Hal
    Chesbro , Jack
    Childs , Cupid
    Cicotte , Eddie
    Cissell , Bill
    Clark , Watty
    Clarkson , Bus
    Clift, Harlond
    Coakley , Andy
    Colavito, Rocky
    Collins , Shano
    Combs , Earle
    Conroy , Wid
    Coombs , Jack
    Cooper , Andy
    Cooper , Mort
    Cooper , Walker
    Cooper , Wilbur
    Courtney , Clint
    Cox , Billy
    Crandall , Doc
    Crandall, Del
    Cravath , Gavvy
    Criger , Lou
    Critz , Hughie
    Cross , Lave
    Crowder , Al 
    Cruise , Walt
    Cuccinello , Tony
    Cummings , Candy
    Cuyler , Kiki
    Dandridge , Ray
    Danning , Harry
    Dark , Alvin
    Daubert , Jake
    Davis , Curt
    Davis , Harry
    Davis , Spud
    Day , Leon
    Derringer , Paul
    DiMaggio , Dom
    Dinneen , Bill
    Doak , Bill
    Donlin , Mike
    Donovan , Bill
    Dooin , Red
    Doyle , Jack 
    Doyle , Larry
    Dropo , Walt
    Duffy , Hugh
    Dugan , Joe
    Dunlap , Fred
    Dykes , Jimmy
    Earnshaw , George
    Easter, Luke
    Edwards , Hank
    Ehmke , Howard
    Elberfeld , Kid
    Elliott , Bob
    Elliott , Jumbo
    Ellis , Dock
    Ennis, Del
    Ens , Jewel
    Erskine , Carl
    Evers , Johnny
    Face, Roy
    Fairly , Ron
    Falkenberg , Cy
    Ferrell , Rick
    Fingers , Rollie
    Fitzsimmons , Freddie
    Fletcher , Art
    Flood , Curt
    Fonseca , Lew
    Foster , Eddie
    Fraser , Chick
    Freehan, Bill
    Fregosi , Jim
    Furillo , Carl
    Galan , Augie
    Garver, Ned
    Gelbert , Charlie
    Gleason , Kid
    Gomez , Lefty
    Gonzalez , Mike
    Gowdy , Hank
    Grant , Eddie
    Grantham , George
    Grimes , Burleigh
    Grimm , Charlie
    Grissom , Marv
    Groat, Dick
    Gromek , Steve
    Grove , Orval
    Gustine , Frank
    Haas , Mule
    Haddix, Harvey
    Hafey , Chick
    Hahn , Noodles
    Haines , Jesse
    Hallahan , Bill
    Harder , Mel
    Hargrave , Bubbles
    Harrelson , Bud
    Harris , Bucky
    Harris , Vic
    Hatton , Grady
    Hearn , Jim 
    Hegan , Jim
    Helms, Tommy
    Hemus , Solly
    Henrich , Tommy
    Herman , Babe
    Herzog , Buck 
    Hickman , Jim
    Higgins , Mike
    Hiller , John
    Hinchman , Bill
    Hodges, Gil
    Holmes , Tommy
    Holtzman , Ken
    Hooper , Harry
    Horton , Willie
    Houtteman , Art
    Howard , Frank
    Howard, Elston
    Hoy , Dummy
    Hoyt , Waite
    Huggins , Miller
    Hunter , Catfish
    Hutchinson , Fred
    Irwin , Charlie
    Jackman , Will
    Jackson , Reggie
    Jackson , Sonny
    Jennings , Hughie
    Jensen , Jackie
    John , Tommy
    Johnson , Bob
    Johnson , Davey
    Johnson , Judy
    Jones , Charley
    Jones , Fielder
    Jones , Sam P.
    Jordan , Tim
    Joss , Addie
    Judge , Joe
    Jurges , Billy
    Kaat, Jim
    Kamm , Willie
    Kawakami , Tetsuharu
    Kell , George
    Keller , Charlie
    Kelley , Joe
    Keltner , Ken
    Kerr , Dickie
    Kessinger , Don
    Killefer , Bill
    Kilroy , Matt
    Kinder , Ellis
    Klein , Chuck
    Kling , Johnny
    Kluszewski, Ted
    Knabe , Otto
    Koosman , Jerry
    Koyama, Masaaki
    Kremer , Ray
    Kress , Red
    Kuenn, Harvey
    Kuhel , Joe
    Kuzava , Bob
    Lange , Bill
    Lanier , Hal
    Larkin , Henry
    Larsen, Don
    Latham , Arlie
    Lavagetto , Cookie
    Law, Vern
    Lazzeri , Tony
    Leach , Freddy
    Leach , Tommy
    Lee , Bill
    Lee , Bill (Spaceman)
    Leever , Sam
    Lemon , Bob
    Leonard , Emil (Dutch)
    Lewis , Duffy
    Lewis, Buddy
    Lindstrom , Freddie
    Lobert , Hans
    Lockman , Whitey
    Lolich, Mickey
    Lollar, Sherm
    Lombardi , Ernie
    Lonborg , Jim
    Long , Herman
    Lopat , Ed
    Lopes , Davey
    Lopez , Al
    Lowe , Bobby
    Lucas , Red
    Lundy , Dick
    Luque , Dolf
    Lyle , Sparky
    Lyons , Denny
    Maglie , Sal
    Maloney, Jim
    Mancuso , Gus
    Manush , Heinie
    Maranville , Rabbit
    Marberry , Firpo
    Marion , Marty
    Maris, Roger
    Marquard , Rube
    Marshall , Mike G.
    Martin , Morrie
    Martin , Pepper
    Mathews , Bobby
    May , Lee
    Mays , Carl
    Mazeroski , Bill
    McAleer , Jimmy
    McCarthy , Tommy
    McCarver , Tim
    McCormick , Frank
    McCormick , Jim
    McDaniel , Lindy
    McDougald, Gil
    McGowan , Bill
    McGraw , Tug
    McInnis , Stuffy
    McLain , Denny
    McLean , Larry
    McMahon, Don
    McManus , Marty
    McMillan, Roy
    McNally , Dave
    McVey , Cal
    Meadows , Lee
    Mendez , Jose
    Messersmith , Andy
    Meusel , Bob
    Miksis , Eddie
    Milan , Clyde
    Millan , Felix
    Miller , Bing
    Miller , Dots
    Miller , Hack
    Monday , Rick
    Monroe , Bill
    Moon, Wally
    Moore , Jo-Jo
    Moore , Terry
    Moran , Pat
    Mostil , Johnny
    Mota, Manny
    Mulcahy , Hugh
    Mullane , Tony
    Mungo , Van
    Munson , Thurman
    Murcer , Bobby
    Murphy , Danny
    Murray , Red
    Myer , Buddy
    Nehf , Art
    Nettles , Graig
    Newcombe , Don
    Newsom , Bobo
    Nicholson , Bill
    Niekro , Joe
    Northey , Ron
    O'Doul , Lefty
    Oeschger , Joe
    O'Farrell , Bob
    O'Leary , Charlie
    Oliva, Tony
    Oliver , Al
    Oms , Alejandro
    O'Neill , Buck
    O'Neill , Steve
    O'Neill , Tip
    Orr , Dave
    Pabor , Charlie
    Pafko , Andy
    Pascual, Camilo
    Paskert , Dode
    Pearson , Monte
    Peckinpaugh , Roger
    Peitz , Heinie
    Pennock , Herb
    Perdue , Hub
    Perez , Tony
    Perkins , Cy
    Perranoski , Ron
    Perry , Jim
    Pesky , Johnny
    Petrocelli, Rico
    Phillippe , Deacon 
    Pierce , Billy
    Pike , Lip
    Piniella, Lou
    Pinson, Vada
    Pipp , Wally
    Podres, Johnny
    Poles , Spotswood
    Porterfield , Bob
    Powell , Boog
    Power , Vic
    Pruett , Hub
    Quinn , Jack
    Raschi , Vic
    Raymond , Bugs
    Redding , Dick
    Reiser , Pete
    Remsen , Jack
    Reynolds , Allie
    Rice , Del
    Rice , Sam
    Richardson , Bobby
    Richardson , Hardy
    Ring , Jimmy
    Ritchey , Claude
    Rixey , Eppa
    Rizzuto , Phil
    Robertson , Dave
    Roe , Preacher
    Rolfe , Red
    Rommel , Eddie
    Root , Charlie
    Rosen, Al
    Roush , Edd 
    Rucker , Nap
    Rudolph , Dick
    Ruel , Muddy
    Ryan  , Jimmy
    Sain , Johnny
    Sanguillen , Manny
    Sauer , Hank
    Schacht , Al
    Schaefer , Germany
    Schalk , Ray
    Schang , Wally
    Schoendienst , Red
    Schreckengost , Ossie
    Schulte , Frank
    Scott , Everett
    Scott , Jack
    Selkirk , George
    Severeid , Hank
    Sewell , Joe
    Sewell , Luke
    Sewell , Rip
    Seymour , Cy
    Shantz, Bobby
    Sheckard , Jimmy
    Sherdel , Bill
    Shocker , Urban
    Short , Chris
    Siebert , Sonny
    Sievers , Roy
    Simmons, Curt
    Sisti , Sibby
    Smith , Earl
    Smith , Reggie
    Smith , Sherry
    Sparks , Tully
    Stahl , Jake
    Stanky , Eddie
    Stanley , Mickey
    Staub , Rusty
    Steinfeldt , Harry
    Stephens , Vern
    Stephenson , Riggs
    Stottlemyre , Mel
    Street , Gabby
    Suhr , Gus
    Sukeforth , Clyde
    Sutton , Don
    Sweeney , Bill
    Tannehill , Jesse
    Taylor , Ben
    Tebbetts , Birdie
    Tenace , Gene
    Tenney , Fred
    Thevenow , Tommy
    Thomas , Ira
    Thomson , Bobby
    Tiant, Luis
    Tiernan , Mike
    Tinker , Joe
    Tobin , Jim
    Toney , Fred
    Torgeson, Earl
    Torre, Joe
    Torrez , Mike
    Travis, Cecil
    Trouppe , Quincy
    Trout , Dizzy
    Trucks , Virgil
    Turner , Terry
    Uhle , George
    Valo , Elmer
    Van Haltren , George
    Vander Meer , Johnny
    Veach , Bobby
    Vernon , Mickey
    Walberg , Rube
    Walker , Harry
    Walters , Bucky
    Wambsganss , Bill
    Waner , Lloyd
    Warfield , Frank
    Warneke , Lon
    Watson , Bob 
    Welch , Mickey
    Werber , Billy
    Wertz, Vic
    West , Sam
    Westrum , Wes
    White , Sol
    White , Will 
    Whitehill , Earl
    Williams , Cy
    Williams , Ken
    Williamson , Ned
    Willis , Vic
    Wills, Maury
    Wilson , Hack
    Wilson , Jim
    Wilson , Jimmie
    Witt , Whitey
    Wood , Joe
    Wood , Wilbur
    Wright , Glenn
    Wyatt , Whit 
    Wynn , Jimmy
    Yamamoto , Koji
    Yerkes , Steve
    York , Rudy
    Young , Pep
    Youngs , Ross
    Zachary , Tom
    Zimmer , Chief
    The complete list of eligible contributors:
    Code:
    Abe , Iso
    Ashford, Emmet
    Autry, Gene
    Bancroft , Frank
    Barlick, Al
    Berger , Sy
    Brickhouse , Jack
    Buck , Jack 
    Bulkely , Morgan
    Busch , Augie
    Cambria , Joe
    Campbell , Jim
    Canel, Buck
    Caray, Harry
    Carrigan, Bill
    Caylor , O. P.
    Chandler, Happy
    Chylak , Nestor
    Conlan , Jocko
    Cooper , Andy
    Cummings , Candy
    Dark , Alvin
    Davids , Bob 
    Dinneen , Bill
    Doubleday , Abner
    Dreyfuss , Barney
    Dyer , Eddie
    Dykes , Jimmy
    Elias , Al Munro
    Evans, Billy
    Feller, Sherm
    Fergsuon, Bob
    Fetzer, John
    Foster , John B.
    Fowler, Bud
    Frick, Ford
    Fullerton , Hugh
    Giles , Warren
    Gleason , Kid
    Gonzalez , Mike
    Gowdy , Curt
    Greenlee, Gus
    Grimm, Charlie
    Haak , Howie
    Haney , Fred
    Harridge, Willie
    Harris , Bucky
    Harris, Vic
    Harwell, Ernie
    Heydler, John
    Hillerich , John
    Hodges, Gil
    Hodges, Russ
    Houk , Ralph
    Howsam, Bob
    Hubbard , Cal
    Hutchinson , Fred
    Jennings , Hughie
    Jobe , Frank
    Krichell, Paul
    Kuenn , Harvey
    Kuhn , Bowie
    Lanigan, Ernest
    Lardner , Ring
    Leavitt, Jr. , Charles W.
    Luque , Dolf
    MacPhail, Lee
    Manley , Effa
    Martin  , Billy
    Mauch , Gene
    McCarthy , Tommy
    McGowan, Bill
    Mendez , Jose
    Mills , A. G.
    Mizuhara, Shigeru
    Moran , Pat
    Murnane, Tim
    Murtaugh, Danny
    Mutrie , Jim
    Navin , Frank
    Nelson , Lindsey
    Norworth, Jack
    O'Day, Hank
    O'Doul, Lefty
    O'Neill, Buck
    O'Neill, Steve
    Osborn , Frank
    Pasquel, Jorge
    Patkin, Max
    Pesky , Johnny
    Pompez , Alex 
    Pulliam, Harry
    Ramirez, Felo
    Reese , Jimmie
    Rice, Grantland
    Richards, Paul
    Ritter , Lawrence
    Rizzuto , Phil
    Robinson , Wilbert
    Schoendienst, Red
    Sewell , Luke
    Sheppard, Bob
    Smith, Red
    Stallings , George
    Street, Gabby
    Thayer , Ernest
    Tyson, Ty
    van der Ahe, Chris
    Warfield , Frank
    Weyer , Lee
    Wilson , Horace
    Wrigley, Phil
    Yawkey, Tom
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  9. #9
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    My ballot

    Players
    1. Reggie Jackson
    2. Alejandro Oms
    3. Jose Mendez
    4. Luis Tiant
    5. Bob Lemon
    6. Hughie Jennings
    7. Roger Bresnahan
    8. Joe Torre
    9. Jimmy Wynn
    10. Joe Kelley
    11. Willard Brown
    12. Charlie Keller

    Contributors
    1. Phil Rizzuto
    2. Vic Harris
    3. Iso Abe
    4. Tim Murnane
    5. Al Munro Elias

    Reggie Jackson goes to the top of my ballot, and I'm adding Willard Brown and Charlie Keller in the 11th and 12th spots. On the contributor side, Al Munro Elias enters the ballot. Only three more years until Buck O'Neill gets credit for both his contributions to the Negro League Museum and Ken Burns' Baseball, which will vault him to the top spot or two on my ballot.
    Last edited by jalbright; 02-05-2011 at 01:15 PM.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  10. #10
    Players:

    1. Reggie Jackson
    2. Jimmy Wynn
    3. Reggie Smith
    4. Bob Elliott
    5. Roger Bresnahan
    6. Bob Lemon
    7. Jimmy Sheckard
    8. Joe Torre
    9. Hughie Jennings
    10. Alejandro Oms
    11. Sal Bando
    12. Cal McVey

    Contributors:

    1. Harry Caray
    2. Phil Rizzuto
    3. Ford Frick
    4. Bob Ferguson
    5. O.P. Caylor

    With 3 names daparting and only 1 strong newcomer on the player's side, Reggie Jackson goes into slot one, Sal Bando rejoins my ballot at slot 11 and Cal McVey debuts in slot 12. On the contributor's side, O.P. Caylor was next in my queue with Iso Abe, Happy Chandler, Jocko Conlan, Candy Cummings, Al Munro Elias, Bud Fowler, Gus Greenlee, Vic Harris, Gil Hodges, Ring Lardner, Billy Martin, Shigeru Mizuhara, Lefty O'Doul, Red Schoendienst all being strongly considered at this point.

    In my consideration set on the players side are Jake Beckley, Chief Bender, Wally Berger, Max Bishop, Willard Brown, Lou Brock, Perucho Cepeda, Cupid Childs, Hugh Duffy, Bill Freehan, Burleigh Grimes, Dummy Hoy, Catfish Hunter, Charley Jones, Fielder Jones, Joe Kelley, Rabbit Maranville, Jose Mendez, Thurman Munson, Graig Nettles, Don Newcombe, Tony Perez, Lip Pike, Jack Quinn, Sam Rice, Pete Rose, Eppa Rixey, Edd Roush, Wally Schang, Joe Sewell, Urban Shocker, Rusty Staub, Don Sutton, Luis Tiant Jr., George Van Haltren. Some may make my ballot, some may not depending on who we are looking at in terms of newcomers.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
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    Players:

    1. Reggie Jackson
    2. Addie Joss
    3. Alejandro Oms
    4. Wally Berger
    5. Jose Mendez
    6. Luis Tiant
    7. Roger Bresnahan
    8. Bob Lemon
    9. Willard Brown
    10. Joe Torre
    11. Hughie Jennings
    12. Don Sutton

    Contributors:

    1. Ford Frick
    2. Gus Greenlee
    3. Phil Rizzuto
    4. Vic Harris
    5. Iso Abe

  12. #12
    1 Reggie Jackson
    2 Hughie Jennings
    3 Charlie Keller
    4 Joe Kelley
    5 Don Sutton
    6 Dick Lundy
    7 Jimmy Sheckard
    8 Phil Rizzuto
    9 Alejandro Oms
    10 Jose Mendez
    11 Jimmy Wynn
    12 Don Newcombe

    Carew (1), Palmer (3), and Hilton Smith (Off ballot - but in my PHOF) were elected in 1990. Newcomer Reggie Jackson takes over the #1 spot. I have dropped my support for Masaaki Koyama enlight of limited evidence displaying his greatness, although he MAY be worthy of a ballot selection. Newcomers to my 1991 ballot are Jose Mendez and Don Newcombe.

    A short write-up to stump a new face: Don Newcombe - who has received no support before:
    Cy Young quality campaigns in 1949 and 59. Pitched at an all-star level each season from 50-57, excluding the war shortened 54. Deserving of at-least two additional all-star war credit campaigns in 52 and 53 due to service in Korea. Deserving of MLE credit in 46-48 with one all-star year and a filler campaign, giving him 10 all-star type seasons. Outstanding hitter for a hurler aids his placement. Newcombe would help fill a gap of negro league hurlers and a decade that is light on electees (1950s). Pitched in the much stronger integrated NL of the 1950s. Compares to on the cusp electee Bob Lemon.

    For those supporting Addie Joss, I fully understand his brilliance while healthy. His ERA and ERA+ are off the charts quality. Unfortunately, Joss career is short, in years and innings pitched, particularly when compared with his peers. His in-season durability/IP were not of the work horse variety either.

    When viewing WAR or Joe Dimino's PA translation of Clay Davenport's DERA, I find Joss as similar in quality to Noodles Hahn, a Joss contemporary. While Joss had a slightly longer career, Hahn was more of a workhorse, offsetting a chunk of the IP difference. While raw WAR finds Joss and Hahn to be neck and neck, Hahn's peak was much more impressive, yielding greater value to his teams. Joss was a stinker with the stick, while Hahn was a shade better. For Joss supporters, do you like Hahn's candidacy?

    Also, a Joss contemporary Vic Willis has a similar peak argument, but adds prime and filler seasons to his career.
    Any Willis fans in the electorate?

    10 hurlers from my personal Hall that are eligible include:
    Don Sutton, Jose Mendez, Don Newcombe, Urban Shocker, Luis Tiant, Masaaki Koyama, Eddie Cicotte, Billy Pierce, Eppa Rixey, and Vic Willis.
    6 Intriguing candidates just shy of my personal Hall:
    Wilbur Cooper, Babe Adams, Jim Whitney, Larry Jackson, Bucky Walters, and Dick Redding.
    Last edited by Jar of Flies; 02-06-2011 at 04:53 PM.

  13. #13
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    1. Reggie Jackson
    2. Lou Brock
    3. Joe Torre
    4. Don Sutton
    5. Edd Roush
    6. Frank Howard
    7. Orlando Cepeda
    8. Bill Freehan
    9. Cupid Childs
    10. Alejandro Oms
    11. Tony Perez
    12. Dave Bancroft

    edit: queing up are: Ray Dandridge, Pinson, Evers, Maranville, Leach, Reggie Smith and Tommy John to name a few.

    1. O.P. Caylor
    2. Red Smith
    3. Billy Evans
    4. Tommy McCarthy
    5. Bob Ferguson
    Last edited by PVNICK; 02-08-2011 at 03:45 AM. Reason: Hilton Smith was elected

  14. #14
    1. Reggie Jackson
    2. Burleigh Grimes
    3. Edd Roush
    4. Bob Lemon
    5. Addie Joss
    6. Luis Aparicio
    7. Don Sutton
    8. Lefty Gomez
    9. Alejandro Oms
    10. Jose Mendez
    11. Hughie Jennings
    12. Roger Bresnahan

    Contributors

    1. Billy Evans
    2. Ford Frick
    3. Gus Greenlee
    4. Happy Chandler
    5. O.P. Caylor
    Bill Tom George Mark Bob Ernie Soupy Alex Sparky
    Joe Gary MCA Emanuel Sonny Dave Earl Stan
    Jonathan Neil Roger Anthony Ray Thomas Art Don
    Gates Philip John Warrior Rik Casey Tony Horace
    JEDI

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Balmer, Merlin
    Posts
    7,577
    Players

    1. Reggie Jackson
    2. Willard Brown
    3. Joe Torre
    4. Addie Joss
    5. Roger Bresnahan
    6. Don Sutton
    7. Bob Lemon
    8. Eppa Rixey
    9. Alejandro Oms
    10. Jose Mendez
    11. Edd Roush
    12. Joe Sewell

    He's on, he's off... anyways, expect me to start voting for Rollie Fingers before most do. He's #1 pitcher on the waiting list. Bonds fits in #12 among position players, Tenace #23, and Oliver #30. Tenace will probably rise as I look at him more closely (essentially, picking apart his production at C vs 1B), but for now I have him behind Thurman Munson. Hunter slides in #28 among pitchers, behind Herb Pennock. Probably won't see the light of day.

    Contributors

    1. Paul Krichell
    2. Al Munro Elias
    3. Billy Martin
    4. Danny Murtaugh
    5. Charlie Grimm

    With the impending election of Hughie Jennings as a player, I've shuffled my contributors' queue a little bit. Martin and Grimm round out the managers I'm comfortable with... Mutrie's still a possibility to return, and then we have the likes of Harris, Houk, Mizuhara and Shoendienst. Next in line remains Howsam and Berger, with Frick if necessary.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jar of Flies View Post
    A short write-up to stump a new face: Don Newcombe - who has received no support before: Cy Young quality campaigns in 1949 and 59. Pitched at an all-star level each season from 50-57, excluding the war shortened 54. Deserving of at-least two additional all-star war credit campaigns in 52 and 53 due to service in Korea. Deserving of MLE credit in 46-48 with one all-star year and a filler campaign, giving him 10 all-star type seasons. Outstanding hitter for a hurler aids his placement. Newcombe would help fill a gap of negro league hurlers and a decade that is light on electees (1950s). Pitched in the much stronger integrated NL of the 1950s. Compares to on the cusp electee Bob Lemon.
    I have Newcombe listed #20 among pitching candidates between Bucky Walters and Lew Burdette. With only 10 seasons, 2150 IP (as a starter) and a 114 ERA+, he would be comparable to Lemon had he logged 700 more IP. I'm assuming this is where the Korean War credit comes in. Initially I figured he simply did not put in enough time, but I'll consider '52-'53.

    For those supporting Addie Joss, I fully understand his brilliance while healthy. His ERA and ERA+ are off the charts quality. Unfortunately, Joss career is short, in years and innings pitched, particularly when compared with his peers. His in-season durability/IP were not of the work horse variety either.
    IMO, Joss did more in his nine seasons than Newcome in ten. Joss wasn't a consistent work-horse but he did log in his 250-300 IP most seasons and finished 5th (338.2) and 2nd (325.0) in back to back seasons. Yes, Newcombe hit much better than Joss but I don't think that makes up enough difference. Newcombe was top ten for five seasons bracketing his war service... so it certainly appears he was ridden 'till the wheels fell off, and that may give him another credit in my queue. But he's not jumping Joss and his 142 ERA+ and major league record WHIP.

    When viewing WAR or Joe Dimino's PA translation of Clay Davenport's DERA, I find Joss as similar in quality to Noodles Hahn, a Joss contemporary. While Joss had a slightly longer career, Hahn was more of a workhorse, offsetting a chunk of the IP difference. While raw WAR finds Joss and Hahn to be neck and neck, Hahn's peak was much more impressive, yielding greater value to his teams. Joss was a stinker with the stick, while Hahn was a shade better. For Joss supporters, do you like Hahn's candidacy?
    It's a good question. How much difference is 1 year, 300 IP, 10 points of ERA+, 1.3 WAR, etc etc? I agree Hahn is a poor man's Joss, and the difference isn't that big. Problem is, I can find more pitchers with a comparable peak to Hahn's career... case in point Chief Bender and his best eight seasons (1661 IP, 132 ERA+, 1.066 WHIP, 135-56 record). Yeah, it's a judgement call; suffice to say, Hahn is in my queue.

    Also, a Joss contemporary Vic Willis has a similar peak argument, but adds prime and filler seasons to his career.
    Any Willis fans in the electorate?
    Willis is in my queue, #9 among pitchers. I actually hope he gets elected before we're through, but I know it will be a close shave if he does.

    10 hurlers from my personal Hall that are eligible include:
    Don Sutton, Jose Mendez, Don Newcombe, Urban Shocker, Luis Tiant, Masaaki Koyama, Eddie Cicotte, Billy Pierce, Eppa Rixey, and Vic Willis.
    6 Intriguing candidates just shy of my personal Hall:
    Wilbur Cooper, Babe Adams, Jim Whitney, Larry Jackson, Bucky Walters, and Dick Redding.
    For most of the names in your personal hall, I am either voting for them already (Sutton, Mendez, Rixey) or they are in the top ten among pitchers in my queue (Shocker, Tiant, Pierce, Willis). Koyama and Cicotte are #s 13 and 14, respectively. And there's always a chance I'll do a little shuffling, since I don't think the difference between these pitchers is that much. Hope that helps!
    Last edited by J W; 02-07-2011 at 11:34 AM.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by J W View Post
    I have Newcombe listed #20 among pitching candidates between Bucky Walters and Lew Burdette. With only 10 seasons, 2150 IP (as a starter) and a 114 ERA+, he would be comparable to Lemon had he logged 700 more IP. I'm assuming this is where the Korean War credit comes in. Initially I figured he simply did not put in enough time, but I'll consider '52-'53.



    IMO, Joss did more in his nine seasons than Newcome in ten. Joss wasn't a consistent work-horse but he did log in his 250-300 IP most seasons and finished 5th (338.2) and 2nd (325.0) in back to back seasons. Yes, Newcombe hit much better than Joss but I don't think that makes up enough difference. Newcombe was top ten for five seasons bracketing his war service... so it certainly appears he was ridden 'till the wheels fell off, and that may give him another credit in my queue. But he's not jumping Joss and his 142 ERA+ and major league record WHIP.



    It's a good question. How much difference is 1 year, 300 IP, 10 points of ERA+, 1.3 WAR, etc etc? I agree Hahn is a poor man's Joss, and the difference isn't that big. Problem is, I can find more pitchers with a comparable peak to Hahn's career... case in point Chief Bender and his best eight seasons (1661 IP, 132 ERA+, 1.066 WHIP, 135-56 record). Yeah, it's a judgement call; suffice to say, Hahn is in my queue.
    In addition to Noodles Hahn, where are you on Harry Brecheen and his 1907.2, 134 ERA+, 1.188 WHIP, 133-92 and Smoky Joe Wood with his 1434 IP, 146 ERA+, 1.087 WHIP, 117-57 + his 110 OPS+ in 2272 PA as a batter?

    I see Joss as belonging to this group of short career, what if pitchers. All of them have intriguing careers, but what makes Joss stand out over them? When looking at Smoky Joe Woods, his total WAR is very close to Joss, but he had the added value of being a very good hitter and position player in addition to a pitcher.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by PVNICK View Post
    ...10. Hilton Smith
    PVNick, I'll PM you on this as well, but we elected Smith last election. Your ballot is valid, with #s 11 and 12 moved up one each and #12 vacant. I'd prefer that you fill that empty spot and make your own fix, however.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  19. #19
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    Arbitrary cutoff I suppose. Wood only had 2 seasons with over 200 IP and a third with 196. 1434 career IP is roughly 62% of Joss' 2327 career IP. Wood's 5640 BF are 63% of Joss' 8891 BF. Not enough for me. And I Plus I should mention that I give Joss a little bit of credit for premature death (not much though, nor should he get much).

    Now, spread Dizzy Dean's success out more among his 12 seasons and you essentially get Harry Brecheen. Of note, Dean was elected without my vote, but he would have been #9 in the pitching queue instead of Willis. Brecheen is #18. Dean is higher because of his consecutive #1-#2-#2 MVP seasons.

  20. #20
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    I should state that I do not believe my opinion is the ultimate truth on the matter. I enjoy the gray-area debate more than the candidates we usher in first-ballot.

    I'm compiling my qeue one season at a time, as we go along. I take the new candidates and look at them for maybe 10 minutes each, then find the spot in my queue (one for position players, one for pitchers) where I see a similar player. Then I make that point A and compare players until I get to point B (either up or down in the queue). Then I narrow it down until said player is slotted. That's the process. Sometimes I need to look at the list as a whole and shuffle it a bit... but it doesn't happen often and there aren't many ripple effects.

    I don't have a personal HOF or a personal all-time ranking. In a way, this project is creating one.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalbright View Post
    PVNick, I'll PM you on this as well, but we elected Smith last election. Your ballot is valid, with #s 11 and 12 moved up one each and #12 vacant. I'd prefer that you fill that empty spot and make your own fix, however.
    I edited the original post (#13). Sorry for missing that.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by PVNICK View Post
    I edited the original post (#13). Sorry for missing that.
    It happens to all of us eventually. Not a problem.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  23. #23
    1 Reggie Jackson
    2 Burleigh Grimes
    3 Eppa Rixey
    4 Bob Lemon
    5 Addie Joss
    6 Luis Tiant
    7 Don Sutton
    8 Ed Roush
    9 Lou Brock
    10 Rog Bresnahan
    11 Hugh Jennings
    12 Joe Torre

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    southeastern PA
    Posts
    14,570
    Blog Entries
    34
    We now have a quorum on the player side, and have eight on the contributor side.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  25. #25
    Skimming the bottom rungs of other ladders, it's good to see Hugh Jennings and Cal McVey pick up votes. ... Probably I will add Roger Bresnahan, join the bandwagon as it rolls to the front. And Don Sutton who might have completed my 11-name ballot last year. ... More than almost anyone here, I am impressed by Dave Bancroft's record, and I am happy with his place in Cooperstown. I doubt that I will vote for him in this project, however.

    Re the contributors, I wonder about a couple of candidates with one keen supporter, scout Paul Krichell (JW) and writer Red Smith (PVNICK). Do you consider them influential in their fields or simply standout achievers?
    Last edited by Paul Wendt; 02-09-2011 at 03:34 PM.

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