This is our fifty-fifth election in this project. The entire rules follow.
This election will end at 11:59:59 PM EST on February 4, 2011.
The prior election, and the ballots of the 1989 voters, are in this thread
Researcher/advocate/mod
This is our fifty-fifth election in this project. The entire rules follow.
This election will end at 11:59:59 PM EST on February 4, 2011.
The prior election, and the ballots of the 1989 voters, are in this thread
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
Rules
1) All BBF users in good standing may participate. However, if there is more than one vote being cast from any one computer or IP, it must be cleared in advance. Should there be unannounced multiple votes from the same IP, I will investigate the circumstances, and all user names involved may be barred from this project as a result, and all but one of the multiple usernames permanently banned from the site. I only anticipate exceptions for family members living in the same home, but I will entertain requests on other bases. Please note that I and the other mods who participate in the project have the capability of determining the IP from which posts come, and I for one intend to monitor same. I have had to deal with a single user manipulating a project with multiple votes, and I don't intend to repeat the experience.
2) Elections will require a 10 voter quorum. If we do not get ten voters and there are candidate(s) who would be elected no matter what the voters needed to make a quorum did, those candidate(s) will be inducted. Otherwise, no one will be inducted. Further, if we fail to meet a quorum in two of any four consecutive elections, the portion(s) of the project failing to meet the quorum requirement will end. If, for instance, we're doing fine on the player end but not the contributor end, I would drop the contributor end under this rule.
3) We will start in 1936, just as Cooperstown did. For the first election (1936), voters will rank their top 20, taking 10. After that we will go to having voters rank their top 12 players. Points awarded 12-11-10, etc. We will take the top five through 1940, then top three players per year elected until 2010, then two per year. If a voter does not number his selections, I will try to get him/her to do so. If they do not do so before the end of the election period, I may in my sole discretion invalidate the ballot. I have included this provision in order to ease the process of recording the votes. On another point, I know, the 1936 backlog is huge--but that was a historical issue they couldn't avoid, so neither will we.
4) We will also have a contributor ballot, which will elect one a year through 1985, then one every three (3) years. Contributors will be ranked 1 through 5, with points awarded 5-4-3-2-1. Voters may choose to participate in either one of the ballots or both.
5) It is permissible to vote for a candidate on both the contributor and player lists.
6) You are allowed to change your ballot at any time the voting is open. However, if you change your ballot, you've got to notify me (jalbright) by PM or by a new post in the voting thread, or the changes likely will not be registered.
7) Players are eligible at the later of age 45 or the first year thereafter in which the player does not play. If the birthdate is not known, add five years to the first time the player misses a season and has less than 10 games the next season. There is an exception for early death, in which case the year of death plus two will be used if that yields an earlier date.
8) Contributors become eligible at age 65 or in the year of death plus two. whichever comes first.
9) Each election will run for approximately two weeks unless expressly altered by the project manager, contributors and players done simultaneously.
10) No one is excluded from being a candidate, regardless of the league they played in, except those elected in either the contributor or player ballots. At that point, they are removed from further consideration. If there are players who returned to the Negro Leagues or Japan after going to the majors, the departure from the majors will be their career end date for purposes of this project.
11) The standard for including a player on one's ballot is that the player must in the voter's opinion be among the very best eligible players (preferably the number voted on, but if a voter wishes to support someone they feel is 15th in a 12 person ballot instead of one of the top 12, it's too close for anyone to reasonably object. On the other hand, supporting the 25th best eligible candidate on a 12 person ballot is probably beyond the pale). I reserve the power to invalidate ballots which I do not feel are a reasonably knowledgeable, good faith effort to rank the players. One issue I am quite concerned about is that I do not want to see what clearly appear to be attempts to manipulate the ballot so as to elect a candidate. In isolation, I probably could live with this, but if it became a widely used tactic, the project would devolve into something I have no desire to be associated with. Moreover, I think that this position asks everyone else to cast legitimate votes so that you can manipulate the system to favor your pet candidates. I cannot accept that, as it strikes me as unfair to other voters. For example, you can't expect to favor even a legitimate HOF candidate like Bill Dahlen over Babe Ruth to get Dahlen elected without being asked to provide a reasonable justification for ranking Dahlen over Ruth. If you can provide a reasonable justification in that scenario, the ballot will stand. If not, you will be asked to make a change. I realize voters will sometimes have idiosyncratic choices, and I try to allow for that. However, a clear flouting of a consensus is apt to be met with a request that the ballot be justified pursuant to this rule. Certainly, a reasonable justification does not indicate in essence simply that you want Dahlen elected. Furthermore, if I invalidate multiple ballots by the same individual as failing to meet this rule, that individual will forever lose the right to have his/her ballots counted. Voters are encouraged to consider character, sportsmanship, and compliance with the rules and spirit of baseball in their rankings of players.
12) I will post lists of eligible players and contributors before each election. If you have a question about the eligibility of a candidate, please ask. I will provide a list of future eligibility dates as well.
13) My eligibility lists come from all persons in the BBF HOF, BBTF Hall of Merit, and Cooperstown, plus all persons getting a vote in a BBF HOF election in the past year and a half or in a BBWAA election. This is a relatively comprehensive list, and thus I must request that if you want another candidate included, you provide some justification for why said candidate is worthy of getting a vote in this project. The main area I think this might come into play is if a voter supports a person who was eligible for the final selections from the recent pre WWII or Negro League committees but not on my master list. That fact alone would serve as ample justification for putting said candidate on the list. We may learn more about Cuban ball or what have you and thus include others after a case is made for them, however. The contributor list is undoubtedly not as comprehensive, and this fact will be taken into consideration. For players, any request for a multiple time all-star in the all-star era will be approved. Players of that quality will generally be approved without much ado. However, when a player lacks that kind of qualification, I will likely ask for you to get a second from among our voters via a post in the current election thread. When in doubt, I will also require a second for suggested contributors. If a second is forthcoming, the player will be added. If not, the request will be rejected. I want to limit requests and seconds to players or contributors you actually might vote for.
14) Other than the sportsmanship and character issues, players are to be evaluated solely upon their play. I would prefer that if a player is qualified by his play standing alone that he be elected on that basis. However, a candidate may only be elected either as a contributor or a player, but not both. Contributors are the area where the entire body of work during his career in the sport, including his play, managing, scouting, executive, writing, broadcasting or other work in the sport is relevant. Contributors are to be ranked based on who the voter thinks is most worthy of induction into the Contributor group in this project.
15) Any ballot with two (2) or more spots unfilled with eligible candidates is invalid. In the event of the listing of ineligible names, I will try to notify the voter so that he/she can correct the ballot before the end of the voting period. If the change is made timely, it will count. If not, and there are two or more invalid names, the ballot will not be considered valid. If there is only one, the ineligible name will be stricken and all names after it on the affected ballot will be moved up one spot.
16) Any players listed beyond the 12th place for any ballot but the first (in which case it is 20th place) will be ignored. If more than one person is listed as tied for the last available place and the ballot is oversize, all names will be dropped, which may lead to the invalidation of the ballot.
17) Ties are not permitted in ballot listings. I reserve the right to invalidate ballots for use of ties in the rankings, be it within a single ballot or over the course of several ballots. If the voter does not correct such a listing voluntarily, except in the case of an oversize ballot tie for the last eligible place, if do not invalidate the ballot, I will choose the placement of the two "tied" candidates, generally preferring the candidate preferred by the other voters.
18) For any ties between candidates straddling the in/out line of selections, the first thing considered is the ranking of the candidates by the ballots cast. If there are more than two candidates tied, use a 2-1-0 or whatever is appropriate for the number of players tied system. If a voter does not list a candidate, he receives zero points in the tiebreaker procedure. Once one person separates from the tied group, restart with the remaining candidates until there are only as many candidates as the rules call for being elected. If they remain tied after this process, the candidate with the most votes received wins. If it is still tied after that, those with the most #1 votes as the next step, then the most #2 votes and so on to see if that breaks the tie. If not, we will induct all candidates who remain tied at that point.
19) One thing we're going to have to be aware of is the timeline in the case of at least a few contributors. Two which jump out at me are Buck O'Neill, 1976, and Branch Rickey, 1946. I intend to eventually vote for both men, but in 1946, Jackie Robinson was still in Montreal. Really, Branch should wait until at least 1947 after Jackie's success in the majors to get credit for that move. If you think Rickey belongs in the top 5 in 1946 without his role in breaking the color line, that's fine--but he shouldn't get credit for that important success until it actually happened. Buck O'Neill did some important things up until 1976, but after that he was in Ken Burns' Baseball and he was instrumental in the establishment of the Negro Leagues Hall of Fame (both occurred in or around 1994). If you think he belongs based on accomplishments before those two things, that's perfectly acceptable, but please don't credit him with them before they actually happened.
20) I will maintain a thread of the project's history and rules which will provide a listing of all elected candidates.
21) Feel free to ask questions by either sending jalbright a PM, or by posting a question in voting thread
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
The players who become eligible in 1990 are:
On the contributor side, we add these names in 1990:Code:Bowa , Larry Carew , Rod Ellis , Dock Holtzman , Ken John , Tommy Lopes , Davey Messersmith , Andy Monday , Rick Palmer , Jim Smith , Reggie Sutton , Don
Code:Jobe , Frank Kuenn , Harvey Mauch , Gene Weyer , Lee
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
The 1989 player candidates who were not elected had these results in the that election:
The 1989 contributor candidates who were not elected had these results in the that election:Code:Players…………….. votes points Oms, Alejandro 10 56 Mendez , Jose 10 55 Lemon, Bob 11 54 Smith, Hilton 9 53 Grimes , Burleigh 7 48 Joss , Addie 6 43 Jennings , Hughie 5 35 Roush , Edd 7 34 Tiant, Luis 6 33 Rixey , Eppa 4 28 Torre, Joe 5 27 Bresnahan , Roger 6 26 Brock, Lou 4 26 Wynn, Jimmy 5 19 Keller , Charlie 2 18 Kelley , Joe 3 18 Berger , Wally 2 16 Brown, Willard 3 15 McVey , Cal 2 13 Rice , Sam 2 12 Sheckard , Jimmy 3 12 Beckley , Jake 3 11 Elliott, Bob 1 8 Howard, Frank 1 7 Koyama, Masaaki 1 7 Cepeda, Orlando 2 6 Lundy , Dick 1 6 Aparicio, Luis 1 5 Freehan, Bill 1 4 Rizzuto , Phil 1 4 Childs , Cupid 1 3 Gomez, Lefty 1 3 Matlock, Leroy 1 2 Bando, Sal 1 1 Pesky, Johnny 1 1 Pike , Lip 1 1 Sewell , Joe 1 1
I strongly suggest that you pay attention to this list, as the leaders of the holdovers are likely to join any strong newcomer candidates as the leaders for winning induction.Code:Contributors……….. votes points Tsuruoka, Kazuto 8 22 Frick, Ford 5 19 Rizzuto, Phil 5 17 Greenlee, Gus 5 16 Caray, Harry 2 9 Harris, Vic 3 9 Evans, Billy 2 8 Caylor , O. P. 2 7 Chandler, Happy 2 7 Ferguson, Bob 2 5 Krichell, Paul 1 4 Smith, Red 1 4 Jennings , Hughie 1 3 Murnane, Tim 2 3 Giles , Warren 1 2 McCarthy, Tommy 1 2 Murtaugh, Danny 1 2 Abe, Iso..... 1 1
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
Members of the Best of Baseball Hall. Last election's inductees are in red.
Players
ContributorsCode:Hank Aaron Pete Alexander Dick Allen Cap Anson Luke Appling Richie Ashburn Earl Averill Frank Baker Ernie Banks Ross Barnes John Beckwith Cool Papa Bell Charlie Bennett Yogi Berra Akira Bessho Lou Boudreau Ken Boyer Dan Brouthers Mordecai Brown Ray Brown Jim Bunning Jesse Burkett Roy Campanella Max Carey Steve Carlton Bob Caruthers Oscar Charleston Fred Clarke John Clarkson Roberto Clemente Ty Cobb Mickey Cochrane Eddie Collins Jimmy Collins Roger Connor Stan Coveleski Sam Crawford Joe Cronin Bill Dahlen George Davis Dizzy Dean Ed Delahanty Bill Dickey Martin Dihigo Joe DiMaggio Larry Doby Bobby Doerr Don Drysdale Buck Ewing Red Faber Bob Feller Wes Ferrell Elmer Flick Whitey Ford Willie Foster Nellie Fox Jimmie Foxx Frankie Frisch Pud Galvin Lou Gehrig Charlie Gehringer Bob Gibson Josh Gibson Jack Glasscock Joe Gordon George Gore Goose Goslin Frank Grant Hank Greenberg Heinie Groh Lefty Grove Stan Hack Billy Hamilton Isao Harimoto Gabby Hartnett Harry Heilmann Billy Herman Pete Hill Paul Hines Rogers Hornsby Carl Hubbell Kazuhisa Inao Monte Irvin Joe Jackson Ferguson Jenkins Grant "Home Run"Johnson Walter Johnson Al Kaline Masaichi Kaneda Tim Keefe Willie Keeler King Kelly Harmon Killebrew Ralph Kiner Sandy Koufax Nap LaJoie Buck Leonard Pop Lloyd Ted Lyons Biz Mackey Sherry Magee Mickey Mantle Juan Marichal Eddie Mathews Christy Mathewson Willie Mays Willie McCovey Joe McGinnity Bid McPhee Joe Medwick Minnie Minoso Johnny Mize Dobie Moore Joe Morgan Stan Musial Shigeo Nagashima Hal Newhouser Kid Nichols Phil Niekro Katsuya Nomura Sadaharu Oh Jim O'Rourke Mel Ott Satchel Paige Gaylord Perry Eddie Plank Charlie Radbourn Pee Wee Reese Robin Roberts Brooks Robinson Frank Robinson Jackie Robinson Bullet Joe Rogan Pete Rose Red Ruffing Amos Rusie Babe Ruth Ron Santo Louis Santop Tom Seaver Al Simmons George Sisler Enos Slaughter Duke Snider Warren Spahn Tris Speaker Victor Starffin Willie Stargell Joe Start Turkey Stearnes Harry Stovey Mule Suttles Ezra Sutton Bill Terry Sam Thompson Cristobal Torriente Pie Traynor Dazzy Vance Arky Vaughan Rube Waddell Honus Wagner Bobby Wallace Ed Walsh Paul Waner John M. Ward Willie Wells Zack Wheat Deacon White Hoyt Wilhelm Billy Williams Smoky Joe Williams Ted Williams Jud Wilson George Wright Early Wynn Carl Yastrzemski Cy Young
Code:Doc Adams Mel Allen Walter Alston Red Barber Ed Barrow Buzzue Bavasi Ed Bolden Alexander Cartwright Henry Chadwick Frank Chance Charlie Commiskey Charles Conlon Tom Connolly Jim Creighton Jack Dunn Leo Durocher Rube Foster Clark Griffith Ned Hanlon William Hulbert Miller Huggins Ban Johnson Tetsuharu Kawakami Bill Klem Kenesaw Landis Al Lopez Connie Mack Larry MacPhail Joe McCarthy John McGraw Bill McKechnie Marvin Miller Walter O'Malley Dickey Pearce Cum Posey A. J. Reach Francis Richter Branch Rickey Jacob Ruppert Frank Selee Ben Shibe Matsutaro Shoriki Billy Southworth Al Spalding Alfred Spink J. G. T. Spink Casey Stengel C. I. Taylor Bill Veeck George Weiss Sol White J. L. Wilkinson Harry Wright
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
The complete list of eligible players:
The complete list of eligible contributors:Code:Adams , Babe Adams , Bobby Adams , Sparky Allen , Johnny Alou , Jesus Alou , Matty Alou, Felipe Altrock , Nick Aparicio, Luis Archer , Jimmy Arlett , Buzz Austin , Jimmy Avila, Bobby Bailey , Bob Bancroft , Dave Bando , Sal Barry , Jack Bartell , Dick Battin , Joe Bauer , Hank Beaumont , Ginger Beckert, Glenn Beckley , Jake Belanger , Mark Bender , Chief Benton , Larry Berg , Moe Bergen , Marty Berger , Wally Berry , Charlie Bibby , Jim Bigbee , Carson Billingham , Jack Bishop , Max Blackwell , Ewell Blades , Ray Blair , Paul Blass , Steve Blue , Lu Bluege , Ossie Bodie , Ping Boley , Joe Bond , Tommy Bottomley , Jim Bowa , Larry Boyer , Clete Bradley , Bill Brecheen , Harry Breitenstein , Ted Bresnahan , Roger Brewer , Jim Bridges , Tommy Brock, Lou Brown , Willard Browning , Pete Bruton, Bill Burdette , Lew Burgess , Smoky Burns , George J. Bush , Joe Bush , Donie Bush , Guy Cadore , Leon Camilli , Dolph Camnitz , Howie Campaneris , Bert Cardenal , Jose Cardenas , Leo Carew , Rod Carrasquel. Chico Carrigan , Bill Carroll, Clay Case , George Cash, Norm Cavaretta , Phil Cepeda , Orlando Cepeda , Perucho Chandler , Spud Chapman , Ben Chapman , Ray Chapman , Sam Chase , Hal Chesbro , Jack Childs , Cupid Cicotte , Eddie Cissell , Bill Clark , Watty Clarkson , Bus Clift, Harlond Coakley , Andy Colavito, Rocky Collins , Shano Combs , Earle Conroy , Wid Coombs , Jack Cooper , Andy Cooper , Mort Cooper , Walker Cooper , Wilbur Courtney , Clint Cox , Billy Crandall , Doc Crandall, Del Cravath , Gavvy Criger , Lou Critz , Hughie Cross , Lave Crowder , Al Cruise , Walt Cuccinello , Tony Cummings , Candy Cuyler , Kiki Dandridge , Ray Danning , Harry Dark , Alvin Daubert , Jake Davis , Curt Davis , Harry Davis , Spud Day , Leon Derringer , Paul DiMaggio , Dom Dinneen , Bill Doak , Bill Donlin , Mike Donovan , Bill Dooin , Red Doyle , Jack Doyle , Larry Dropo , Walt Duffy , Hugh Dugan , Joe Dunlap , Fred Dykes , Jimmy Earnshaw , George Easter, Luke Edwards , Hank Ehmke , Howard Elberfeld , Kid Elliott , Bob Elliott , Jumbo Ellis , Dock Ennis, Del Ens , Jewel Erskine , Carl Evers , Johnny Face, Roy Fairly , Ron Falkenberg , Cy Ferrell , Rick Fitzsimmons , Freddie Fletcher , Art Flood , Curt Fonseca , Lew Foster , Eddie Fraser , Chick Freehan, Bill Fregosi , Jim Furillo , Carl Galan , Augie Garver, Ned Gelbert , Charlie Gleason , Kid Gomez , Lefty Gonzalez , Mike Gowdy , Hank Grant , Eddie Grantham , George Grimes , Burleigh Grimm , Charlie Grissom , Marv Groat, Dick Gromek , Steve Grove , Orval Gustine , Frank Haas , Mule Haddix, Harvey Hafey , Chick Hahn , Noodles Haines , Jesse Hallahan , Bill Harder , Mel Hargrave , Bubbles Harrelson , Bud Harris , Bucky Harris , Vic Hatton , Grady Hearn , Jim Hegan , Jim Helms, Tommy Hemus , Solly Henrich , Tommy Herman , Babe Herzog , Buck Hickman , Jim Higgins , Mike Hiller , John Hinchman , Bill Hodges, Gil Holmes , Tommy Holtzman , Ken Hooper , Harry Horton , Willie Houtteman , Art Howard , Frank Howard, Elston Hoy , Dummy Hoyt , Waite Huggins , Miller Hutchinson , Fred Irwin , Charlie Jackman , Will Jackson , Sonny Jennings , Hughie Jensen , Jackie John , Tommy Johnson , Bob Johnson , Davey Johnson , Judy Jones , Charley Jones , Fielder Jones , Sam P. Jordan , Tim Joss , Addie Judge , Joe Jurges , Billy Kaat, Jim Kamm , Willie Kawakami , Tetsuharu Kell , George Keller , Charlie Kelley , Joe Keltner , Ken Kerr , Dickie Kessinger , Don Killefer , Bill Kilroy , Matt Kinder , Ellis Klein , Chuck Kling , Johnny Kluszewski, Ted Knabe , Otto Koosman , Jerry Koyama, Masaaki Kremer , Ray Kress , Red Kuenn, Harvey Kuhel , Joe Kuzava , Bob Lange , Bill Lanier , Hal Larkin , Henry Larsen, Don Latham , Arlie Lavagetto , Cookie Law, Vern Lazzeri , Tony Leach , Freddy Leach , Tommy Lee , Bill Leever , Sam Lemon , Bob Leonard , Emil (Dutch) Lewis , Duffy Lewis, Buddy Lindstrom , Freddie Lobert , Hans Lockman , Whitey Lolich, Mickey Lollar, Sherm Lombardi , Ernie Lonborg , Jim Long , Herman Lopat , Ed Lopes , Davey Lopez , Al Lowe , Bobby Lucas , Red Lundy , Dick Luque , Dolf Lyle , Sparky Lyons , Denny Maglie , Sal Maloney, Jim Mancuso , Gus Manush , Heinie Maranville , Rabbit Marberry , Firpo Marion , Marty Maris, Roger Marquard , Rube Marshall , Mike G. Martin , Morrie Martin , Pepper Mathews , Bobby May , Lee Mays , Carl Mazeroski , Bill McAleer , Jimmy McCarthy , Tommy McCarver , Tim McCormick , Frank McCormick , Jim McDaniel , Lindy McDougald, Gil McGowan , Bill McGraw , Tug McInnis , Stuffy McLain , Denny McLean , Larry McMahon, Don McManus , Marty McMillan, Roy McNally , Dave McVey , Cal Meadows , Lee Mendez , Jose Messersmith , Andy Meusel , Bob Miksis , Eddie Milan , Clyde Millan , Felix Miller , Bing Miller , Dots Miller , Hack Monday , Rick Monroe , Bill Moon, Wally Moore , Jo-Jo Moore , Terry Moran , Pat Mostil , Johnny Mota, Manny Mulcahy , Hugh Mullane , Tony Mungo , Van Munson , Thurman Murphy , Danny Murray , Red Myer , Buddy Nehf , Art Nettles , Graig Newcombe , Don Newsom , Bobo Nicholson , Bill Niekro , Joe Northey , Ron O'Doul , Lefty Oeschger , Joe O'Farrell , Bob O'Leary , Charlie Oliva, Tony Oms , Alejandro O'Neill , Buck O'Neill , Steve O'Neill , Tip Orr , Dave Pabor , Charlie Pafko , Andy Palmer , Jim Pascual, Camilo Paskert , Dode Pearson , Monte Peckinpaugh , Roger Peitz , Heinie Pennock , Herb Perdue , Hub Perez , Tony Perkins , Cy Perranoski , Ron Perry , Jim Pesky , Johnny Petrocelli, Rico Phillippe , Deacon Pierce , Billy Pike , Lip Piniella, Lou Pinson, Vada Pipp , Wally Podres, Johnny Poles , Spotswood Porterfield , Bob Powell , Boog Power , Vic Pruett , Hub Quinn , Jack Raschi , Vic Raymond , Bugs Redding , Dick Reiser , Pete Remsen , Jack Reynolds , Allie Rice , Del Rice , Sam Richardson , Bobby Richardson , Hardy Ring , Jimmy Ritchey , Claude Rixey , Eppa Rizzuto , Phil Robertson , Dave Roe , Preacher Rolfe , Red Rommel , Eddie Root , Charlie Rosen, Al Roush , Edd Rucker , Nap Rudolph , Dick Ruel , Muddy Ryan , Jimmy Sain , Johnny Sanguillen , Manny Sauer , Hank Schacht , Al Schaefer , Germany Schalk , Ray Schang , Wally Schoendienst , Red Schreckengost , Ossie Schulte , Frank Scott , Everett Scott , Jack Selkirk , George Severeid , Hank Sewell , Joe Sewell , Luke Sewell , Rip Seymour , Cy Shantz, Bobby Sheckard , Jimmy Sherdel , Bill Shocker , Urban Short , Chris Siebert , Sonny Sievers , Roy Simmons, Curt Sisti , Sibby Smith , Earl Smith , Hilton Smith , Reggie Smith , Sherry Sparks , Tully Stahl , Jake Stanky , Eddie Stanley , Mickey Staub , Rusty Steinfeldt , Harry Stephens , Vern Stephenson , Riggs Stottlemyre , Mel Street , Gabby Suhr , Gus Sukeforth , Clyde Sutton , Don Sweeney , Bill Tannehill , Jesse Taylor , Ben Tebbetts , Birdie Tenney , Fred Thevenow , Tommy Thomas , Ira Thomson , Bobby Tiant, Luis Tiernan , Mike Tinker , Joe Tobin , Jim Toney , Fred Torgeson, Earl Torre, Joe Travis, Cecil Trouppe , Quincy Trout , Dizzy Trucks , Virgil Turner , Terry Uhle , George Valo , Elmer Van Haltren , George Vander Meer , Johnny Veach , Bobby Vernon , Mickey Walberg , Rube Walker , Harry Walters , Bucky Wambsganss , Bill Waner , Lloyd Warfield , Frank Warneke , Lon Welch , Mickey Werber , Billy Wertz, Vic West , Sam Westrum , Wes White , Sol White , Will Whitehill , Earl Williams , Cy Williams , Ken Williamson , Ned Willis , Vic Wills, Maury Wilson , Hack Wilson , Jim Wilson , Jimmie Witt , Whitey Wood , Joe Wood , Wilbur Wright , Glenn Wyatt , Whit Wynn , Jimmy Yerkes , Steve York , Rudy Young , Pep Youngs , Ross Zachary , Tom Zimmer , Chief
Code:Abe , Iso Ashford, Emmet Autry, Gene Bancroft , Frank Barlick, Al Berger , Sy Brickhouse , Jack Buck , Jack Bulkely , Morgan Busch , Augie Cambria , Joe Campbell , Jim Canel, Buck Caray, Harry Carrigan, Bill Caylor , O. P. Chandler, Happy Chylak , Nestor Conlan , Jocko Cooper , Andy Cummings , Candy Dark , Alvin Dinneen , Bill Doubleday , Abner Dreyfuss , Barney Dyer , Eddie Dykes , Jimmy Elias , Al Munro Evans, Billy Feller, Sherm Fergsuon, Bob Fetzer, John Foster , John B. Fowler, Bud Frick, Ford Fullerton , Hugh Giles , Warren Gleason , Kid Gonzalez , Mike Gowdy , Curt Greenlee, Gus Grimm, Charlie Haak , Howie Haney , Fred Harridge, Willie Harris , Bucky Harris, Vic Harwell, Ernie Heydler, John Hillerich , John Hodges, Gil Hodges, Russ Houk , Ralph Howsam, Bob Hubbard , Cal Hutchinson , Fred Jennings , Hughie Jobe , Frank Krichell, Paul Kuenn , Harvey Lanigan, Ernest Lardner , Ring Leavitt, Jr. , Charles W. Luque , Dolf MacPhail, Lee Manley , Effa Mauch , Gene McCarthy , Tommy McGowan, Bill Mendez , Jose Mills , A. G. Mizuhara, Shigeru Moran , Pat Murnane, Tim Murtaugh, Danny Mutrie , Jim Navin , Frank Nelson , Lindsey Norworth, Jack O'Day, Hank O'Doul, Lefty O'Neill, Buck O'Neill, Steve Osborn , Frank Pasquel, Jorge Patkin, Max Pesky , Johnny Pompez , Alex Pulliam, Harry Ramirez, Felo Reese , Jimmie Rice, Grantland Richards, Paul Ritter , Lawrence Rizzuto , Phil Robinson , Wilbert Schoendienst, Red Sewell , Luke Sheppard, Bob Smith, Red Stallings , George Street, Gabby Thayer , Ernest Tsuruoka , Kazuto Tyson, Ty van der Ahe, Chris Warfield , Frank Weyer , Lee Wilson , Horace Wrigley, Phil Yawkey, Tom
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
My ballot
Players
1. Rod Carew
2. Jim Palmer
3. Alejandro Oms
4. Jose Mendez
5. Luis Tiant
6. Bob Lemon
7. Hughie Jennings
8. Hilton Smith
9. Roger Bresnahan
10. Joe Torre
11. Jimmy Wynn
12. Joe Kelley
Contributors
1. Phil Rizzuto
2. Kazuto Tsuruoka
3. Vic Harris
4. Iso Abe
5. Tim Murnane
Rod Carew and Jim Palmer take the two top spots, and Joe Kelley takes the #12 slot. On the contributor side, I added Tim Murnane.
Last edited by jalbright; 01-22-2011 at 09:53 AM.
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Registered User
Players:
1. Rod Carew
2. Jim Palmer
3. Jimmy Wynn
4. Reggie Smith
5. Bob Elliott
6. Roger Bresnahan
7. Hilton Smith
8. Bob Lemon
9. Jimmy Sheckard
10. Joe Torre
11. Hughie Jennings
12. Alejandro Oms
Contributors:
1. Harry Caray
2. Phil Rizzuto
3. Ford Frick
4. Kazuto Tsuruoka
5. Bob Ferguson
Carew, Palmer and R.Smith enter in at slots 1, 2 and 4 in their debut year. Bob Ferguson hits the contributor's side at slot 5. Hughie Jennings rejoins my ballot at slot 11 and Burleigh Grimes leaves my ballot after some reevaluations.
In my consideration set are Sal Bando, Jake Beckley, Chief Bender, Wally Berger, Max Bishop, Lou Brock, Perucho Cepeda, Cupid Childs, Hugh Duffy, Bill Freehan, Burleigh Grimes, Dummy Hoy, Charley Jones, Fielder Jones, Joe Kelley, Rabbit Maranville, Cal McVey, Jose Mendez, Thurman Munson, Graig Nettles, Don Newcombe, Tony Perez, Lip Pike, Sam Rice, Pete Rose, Eppa Rixey, Edd Roush, Wally Schang, Joe Sewell, Urban Shocker, Rusty Staub, Luis Tiant Jr., George Van Haltren. Some may make my ballot, some may not depending on who we are looking at in terms of newcomers.
How does Alejandro Oms compare to Reggie Smith, Jimmy Wynn, Edd Roush and Jimmy Scheckard? He just entered my queue, but I always thought of him as a borderline HOFer and I see he is very close to election.
Last edited by jjpm74; 01-22-2011 at 03:50 PM. Reason: Slotted oms into slot 12 and bumped Bando temporarily.
Registered User
I've completely re-worked my ballot, spending the past few weeks tinkering with my personal rankings (instead of actual legal work - I stand by my decision).
01. Rod Carew
02. Jim Palmer
03. Hilton Smith
04. Luis Tiant
05. Eppa Rixey
06. Jose Mendez
07. Alejandro Oms
08. Wally Berger
09. Burleigh Grimes
10. Jake Beckley
11. Bob Lemon
12. Jimmy Wynn
01. Frank Jobe
02. Kazuto Tsuruoka
03. Ford Frick
04. Phil Rizzuto
05. Vic Harris
2004 & 2007
Players:
1. Rod Carew
2. Jim Palmer
3. Hilton Smith
4. Addie Joss
5. Alejandro Oms
6. Wally Berger
7. Jose Mendez
8. Luis Tiant
9. Roger Bresnahan
10. Bob Lemon
11. Willard Brown
12. Joe Torre
Contributors:
1. Ford Frick
2. Gus Greenlee
3. Phil Rizzuto
4. Kazuto Tsuruoka
5. Vic Harris
Bleed the Freak
1 Rod Carew
2 Hughie Jennings
3 Jim Palmer
4 Charlie Keller
5 Joe Kelley
6 Don Sutton
7 Dick Lundy
8 Masaaki Koyama
9 Jimmy Sheckard
10 Phil Rizzuto
11 Alejandro Oms
12 Jimmy Wynn
Seaver and Carlton were #1 and #2 on my ballot, while Dobie Moore was not close. I can understand a vote for Moore though, as he appears to have had an outstanding peak in the 1920's Negro Leagues, while he deserves credit for his Army Wreckers years. The most subjective part is: how much credit for the army ball? I give him ~3 years of quality play with the Wreckers, which isn't enough.
I notice that Don Sutton is not polling well in the early going...Am I overrating this career value candidate?...I could see myself dropping him to the end of ballot or just off if a persuasive informative argument was made...thanks guys. I find his career value to be excellent, while acknowledging that he has no peak, but a solid prime.
jjpm74 in post 8 notes:
Personally, I have Oms, Smith, Wynn, and Sheckard as Personal Hall and Best of Baseball worthy, either low or just off ballot, while Roush is far off. Roush didn't have a particularly impressive long career candidacy and his peak is not exciting. Roush also benefited from much weaker competition from the Federal League and National League of the 1910s.How does Alejandro Oms compare to Reggie Smith, Jimmy Wynn, Edd Roush and Jimmy Scheckard? He just entered my queue, but I always thought of him as a borderline HOFer and I see he is very close to election.
In particular for Oms, MLE's at the Hall of Merit posit the following, from post 163 of the Alejandro Oms thread:
http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/...ndro_oms/P100/
The Hall of Merit voters also ranked players by position -OK, here's Oms in my WARP, using the latest available MLE's. To fill in the numerous gaps in Oms's career, I used the same approach that I do for war credit. For the completely undocumented period before he turned 26, I looked at all players who were 26 years old between 1917 and 1925 and played at least half the year in each of their age 26 to age 30 seasons. I ran regressions to see the correlations between their pre-26 MLB playing time and rates and their post-26 performance, and then applied those equations to Oms to get total pre-26 playing time and average rate performance. I then distributed the resulting total value on an increasing scale over his age 21-25 seasons.
For his Venezuela seasons, where the data is too scanty to be useful, I looked at all MLB players who had played at least half a season in their age 36, 37, and 40 seasons, and got the correlations between those years and their performance at ages 38 and 39. I did the same for all MLB players who played at least a quarter of the season in their age 40 and 42 seasons against their performance in their age 41 season. The missing 1933, 34, and 36 seasons were filled in using the resulting equations.
Here's the result:
Year SFrac BWAA BRWAA FWAA Replc WARP
1916 0.20 0.2 0.0 0.0 -0.2 0.4
1917 0.65 1.1 0.0 0.1 -0.7 1.9
1918 0.75 2.1 0.0 0.2 -0.8 3.0
1919 0.85 2.8 0.0 0.3 -0.8 3.9
1920 0.95 3.6 0.0 0.4 -0.9 4.9
1921 0.95 3.8 0.1 0.3 -0.9 5.1
1922 1.00 4.5 0.1 0.4 -1.0 6.0
1923 0.98 4.0 0.1 0.7 -1.0 5.8
1924 0.96 4.0 0.1 0.7 -0.9 5.7
1925 0.97 3.2 0.1 0.7 -1.0 5.0
1926 0.94 1.2 0.0 0.8 -0.9 3.0
1927 0.98 3.1 0.1 0.4 -1.1 4.6
1928 1.00 0.6 0.1 0.1 -0.8 1.5
1929 0.98 4.9 0.1 -0.1 -1.0 5.9
1930 0.62 -0.9 0.0 -0.4 -0.6 -0.6
1931 0.91 1.4 0.1 -0.3 -0.9 2.0
1932 0.86 0.0 0.0 -0.2 -0.9 0.8
1933 0.79 0.4 0.0 0.0 -0.6 0.9
1934 0.79 0.4 0.0 0.0 -0.6 0.9
1935 0.79 1.3 0.0 -0.1 -0.6 1.8
1936 0.48 0.4 -0.1 0.0 -0.4 0.7
1937 0.26 0.2 0.0 -0.1 -0.2 0.3
TOTL 17.66 42.4 1.0 3.5 -16.7 63.6
TXBR 17.05 43.2 1.0 3.9 -16.0 64.2
AVRG 1.00 2.4 0.1 0.2 -0.9 3.6
3-year peak: 17.7
7-year prime: 38.4
Career: 64.2
Salary: $164,153,473, a lower-tier but clear HoM'er. Worse than Wheat and Magee, similar to Stargell, Killebrew, and Reggie Smith, superior to Goslin, Wynn, and Dawson. Assuming the MLE's aren't super-flattening his career shape, he should be at the very bottom of a peak voter's ballot, as a sizable chunk of his career total comes from "hanging-on" seasons.
Oms finished 20th, 1 spot below Earl Averill, 1 ahead of Cool Papa Bell, 2 spots below Jimmy Wynn, 2 spots ahead of Edd Roush. Sheckard is considered a left fielder, with Reggie Smith was elected to the Hall of Merit after Alejandro Oms - both were eligible for many "years" together.
I have an order of:
Sheckard - appears to have other worldly defense according to most metrics
Oms
Wynn
Smith
Roush
Last edited by Jar of Flies; 02-02-2011 at 06:51 AM.
Registered User
Thanks for the excellent writeup on Oms! It appears that he is a lot closer to Scheckard than I originally gave him credit for. I have slotted Oms in at #12 on my ballot and temporarily bumped Sal Bando into my queue.
Registered User
Don Sutton had a few great years in the early 1970s, followed by a few flashes of greatness later in his career and put together a long career.Originally Posted by Jar of Flies
5000+ IP, and an era+ of 108 combined with his 1971-1977 seasons is enough that I will probably vote for him eventually, but not enough to get consideration over the 12 I'm presently voting for. At present, I have Jim Palmer, Hilton Smith and Jose Mendez ahead of him with Mendez still in my queue.
Bleed the Freak
Part of my hitter rankings are based from Dan Rosenheck's interpretation of Wins Above Replacement.
And more to explain the numbers:
Rosenheck from post 422 of his WAR thread: http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/...arp_data/P400/
Rosenheck has modified the defensive metrics he uses for seasons 1987-2005, but this currently does not effect this salary estimator for the BOB Election. His data correlates .98 with Fangraphs for the 2006-2008 seasons, so the 2006-2010 seasons can be used to analyze current players versus pre 2006 seasons.I think one thing that has prevented some members of the group from making use of my WARP data is that most people aren't paying enough attention to distinguish between the system's results and my own personal idiosyncratic voting preferences (particularly my emphasis on peak rate). To help separate the two, I've applied a different salary estimator--the same equation Nate Silver currently uses to determine the market value of players today--which I think much better reflects the consensus approach to voting.
The equation is $1,200,000 * WARP2^1.5 + $380,000. It rewards peak, but not too steeply: one season of 8 WARP2 (a year like Rod Carew's 1975 or Ted Williams's 1948) comes out 38% more valuable than two seasons of 4 WARP2 (a year like Julio Franco's 1986 or Mo Vaughn's 1995), and one season of 12 WARP2 (there aren't many, but Ty Cobb's 1917 is a pretty good fit) is worth 68% more than three seasons of 4 WARP2. And I apply it to seasonal WARP totals rather than rates, so in-season durability is rewarded as most of the group supports.
So if you're fairly consensus-minded, and don't feel like taking the time to pore through a spreadsheet with tens of thousands of rows but just want the upshot on the conclusions of my research, here are the results of this Consensus Estimator. 2007 numbers are straight-line adjusted for the remaining 10 games. Strike seasons are filled out using the player's three-year average. 1943 and 45 are penalized with an extra 10% park factor (eg a 95 PF becomes 105) and -2 FRAA, and 1944 is penalized with an extra 20% park factor and -4 FRAA. I did a study on catcher playing time and found they play 58% fewer games than the other 8 positions on average, so catchers receive a flat 58% bonus to their salaries (prorated, so if a guy plays half a season at C and half somewhere else he gets a 29% bonus). War credit is given using the average production of the four surrounding seasons (two on either side); no other account is made for league strength above and beyond the standard deviation. Minor league and Negro League credit is taken from the group's MLE's. I only have data for MLB position players since 1893.
I have a copy of the most recent Excel spreadsheets if anyone would like me to send them, and they can be downloaded from the Hall of Merit Yahoo group if anyone joins.
Rosenheck's system analyzes 1893-2005 WARP figures. He mentions that the run estimators from the pre-1893 era are too weakly correlated for him to be comfortable using them confidently, so he does his best to estimate the values from that time frame.
The salary estimator he published in 2007 had the following figures for 1990 eligibles:
Hughie Jennings, $176,844,480 (pre-1893 value estimated from BP WARP)
xx - Dick Lundy - Rosenheck comments: The closest parallel to him--a defense-first, lowish-peak shortstop with 65 to 70 WARP2--seems to be Bobby Wallace (69.5). Wallace's best seasons by WARP2 were 7.2, 6.1, 5.9, 5.7, 5.6, 5.6, 5.4, while Lundy's are 6.4, 5.0, 5.0, 4.8, 4.7, 4.5, 4.5. So if we give Lundy 67.5/69.5 = 97% of Wallace's peak and prime, we get 6.9, 5.9, 5.7, 5.5, 5.4, 5.4, 5.2, making his 3-year peak 18.5 and his 7-year prime 40.0. That would still make him a low-peak candidate, but would give him a prime comparable to that of Campaneris and Rizzuto. My understanding is that Lundy is very much considered in the pantheon of Negro League players--there's no "But why haven't we heard of him??" issue here as there is with Clarkson. Given that reputation, finding out that he was not even quite the black Bobby Wallace actually seems like something of a disappointment. That said, 97% of Bobby Wallace is clearly a deserving HoM'er. Unless there are further changes to these MLE's, making the above adjustments to his peak puts him 2nd to McGraw on my peak-heavy, rate-based salary estimator and an easy first on my consensus estimator. If there are no further changes to these MLE's, I will have him #2 on my 2006 ballot.
Joe Kelley, $174,808,494 (pre-1893 value estimated from BP WARP)
Jimmy Sheckard, $173,782,257
Phil Rizzuto, $173,175,176 (war credit for 1943-45)
Charlie Keller, $173,121,159 (war credit for 1944 and the missing part of 1945)
Joe Sewell, $172,113,587
Dagoberto Campaneris, $167,565,867
Alejandro Oms $164,153,473
Gavvy Cravath, $164,012,445 (minor league credit for 1906-7, 9-11) - revision with Rosenheck comments - I think when I calculated Cravath for myself in the past, I was characterizing his fielding as substantially below average in the minors--I had somehow deposited him in the Greg Luzinski/Frank Howard bin. But if his career D was nearly average, then he's a clear HoM'er. A caveat is that my old DRA numbers show Gavvy as quite poor at the MLB level: -25 in 1913, -11 in 1914, +7 in 1915, -20 in 1916, and -11 in 1917. However, I don't think those numbers are park-adjusted, and I imagine there may be a Baker Bowl effect.
125. John McGraw, $163,585,393 (pre-1893 value estimated from BP WARP) - elected as a contributor
Reggie Smith, $162,388,814 (Japan credit for 1983)
Johnny Pesky, $161,323,415 (war credit for 1943-45)
xx Lip Pike - Rosenheck places him between Alejandro Oms and Jimmy Wynn on his all-time centerfield rankings.
Jake Beckley, $160,305,046 (pre-1893 value estimated from BP WARP)
Roger Bresnahan, $159,724,848
Jimmy Wynn, $158,445,038
Bill Freehan, $157,371,800
Tommy Leach, $154,776,307
Willard Brown $154,664,663 - Rosenheck comments: just a tiny nudge over the borderline, but probably deserving of election. Worse than Wynn, a bit worse than Dawson, comparable to the unelected Leach, superior to the elected Averill and Roush.
Dave Bancroft, $154,096,301
xx Cal McVey - rated a notch ahead of Quincy Trouppe in Rosenheck's catcher rankings.
xx Quincy Trouppe - Rosenheck rated all-time catchers...Trouppe placement is between Freehan and Tenace.
Jim Fregosi, $152,193,178
Bob Johnson, $151,852,428
Chuck Klein, $151,248,045
Rabbit Maranville, $150,875,410 (war credit for 1918)
Bobby Bonds, $148,958,773
Toby Harrah, $146,788,510
Gene Tenace, $146,753,677
Kiki Cuyler, $145,816,749
Cupid Childs, $145,685,369 (pre-1893 value estimated from BP WARP)
Players who received votes in the 1989 Best of Baseball election not mentioned above:
Joe Torre, $141,135,719
Edd Roush, $140,737,906 (holdout credit for 1922 and 1930)
Luis Aparicio, $136,192,622
Sal Bando, $116,979,294
Bob Elliott, $115,037,913
Frank Howard, $110,035,741
xx - Wally Berger - projected $ fall between Howard and Cepeda
Orlando Cepeda, $104,799,732
Sam Rice, $101,995,196
Lou Brock, $99,297,793
Two players I would like an explanation as to why they were elected here:
Nellie Fox, $134,857,927
Pie Traynor, $127,883,494
Last edited by Jar of Flies; 01-23-2011 at 05:52 PM.
1. Rod Carew
2. Lou Brock
3. Jim Palmer
4. Joe Torre
5. Don Sutton
6. Edd Roush
7. Frank Howard
8. Orlando Cepeda
9. Bill Freehan
10. Cupid Childs
11. Hilton Smith
12. Alejandro Oms
Tony Perez probably is first in line Reggie Smith too Tommy John in all fairness should be close as well sine I put Sutton in
1. O.P. Caylor
2. Red Smith
3. Billy Evans
4. Tommy McCarthy
5. Bob Ferguson
OSHA-certified Moderator
1. Rod Carew
2. Jim Palmer
3. Burleigh Grimes
4. Edd Roush
5. Bob Lemon
6. Addie Joss
7. Hilton Smith
8. Luis Aparicio
9. Don Sutton
10. Lefty Gomez
11. Alejandro Oms
12. Jose Mendez
Contributors
1. Billy Evans
2. Ford Frick
3. Gus Greenlee
4. Happy Chandler
5. Kazuto Tsuruoka
Tom Tresh George Kell Mark Fidrych Bob Feller
Ernie Harwell Soupy Sales Alex Chilton Sparky Anderson
Joe Nuxhall Gary Carter MCA Emanuel Steward
Sonny Elliot Dave Brubeck Earl Weaver Stan Musial
Jonathan Winters Neil Armstrong Roger Ebert Anthony Zahler
Ray Manzarek
carpe baseball
Players
1. Rod Carew
2. Jim Palmer
3. Alejandro Oms
4. Bob Lemon
5. Luis Tiant
6. Jose Mendez
7. Joe Torre
8. Jimmy Wynn
9. Burleigh Grimes
10. Hilton Smith
11. Edd Roush
12. Roger Bresnahan
Contributors
1. Kazuto Tsuruoka
2. Gus Greenlee
3. O.P. Caylor
4. Tim Murnane
5. Vic Harris
"When you have no basis for an argument, abuse the plaintiff." -- Cicero
a posse ad esse
Players
1. Rod Carew
2. Jim Palmer
3. Willard Brown
4. Joe Torre
5. Addie Joss
6. Roger Bresnahan
7. Don Sutton
8. Bob Lemon
9. Eppa Rixey
10. Alejandro Oms
11. Jose Mendez
12. Edd Roush
Sewell drops off again. Reggie Smith squeezes into 7th in the players' queue and is likely to rise soon alongside Joe Kelley. Tommy John settles into 4th in the pitchers' queue directly in front of Jim Kaat.
Contributors
1. Paul Krichell
2. Hughie Jennings
3. Danny Murtaugh
4. Kazuto Tsuruoka
5. Al Munro (& Walter) Elias
I figure it's time to enter the name that I believe is most responsible for us the stat-heads existing as we do today... the founder(s) of the Elias Sports Bureau. Bob Howsam and Sy Berger are next, as well as Ford Frick if he needs a lil' push.
September 16, 2012: The Losing Streak Ends
Bleed the Freak
Brad Harris from post 17:
Hey Brad...good to see you here and at the Hall of Merit ballots. In the 2011 Hall of Merit election, you ranked the following 1990 Best of Baseball eligibles as follows:5. Luis Tiant
9. Burleigh Grimes
10. Hilton Smith
(6) Luis Tiant, (9) Bob Johnson, (10) Don Newcombe, (12) Tommy Bridges, (13) Gavvy Cravath, (15) Eddie Cicotte.
This made me curious...have you become better friends with Burleigh Grimes and Hilton Smith since your vote at the HOM in December.
As a Hilton Smith HOM voter, I understand and condone your vote/rise in ranking.
With regard to Grimes, I haven't been able to come around. When viewing Clay Davenports DERA (Defensive Independent Earned Run Average - found at baseballprospectus), or Sean Smith's WAR (found at baseball-reference.com), Grimes falls well short of many eligibles. Grimes looks much better through a raw win shares view, but studies have shown that the replacement levels have been set much too low to find raw win shares as reliable.
For the Grimes voters, can you float me a reasonable argument for your support. Maybe I am just missing the boat on this one?
Currently I see the following hurlers more worthy who remain unelected:
Jim Palmer, Masaaki Koyama (I can understand those who have passed - numbers are challenging to interpret - however, the evidence that jalbright has shows Koyama as overwhelmingly deserving), Don Sutton, Urban Shocker, Hilton Smith, Don Newcombe, Jose Mendez, Jim McCormick, Vic Willis, Luis Tiant, Tommy Bridges, Billy Pierce, and Dick "Cannonball" Redding. For Sean Smith WAR fans, I would recommend looking at Tommy Bond, Tony Mullane, and Bob Lemon. For those who might like Baseball Prospectus WARP, I recommend Cincinnati Reds hurlers Eppa Rixey and Bucky Walters.
Last edited by Jar of Flies; 01-25-2011 at 09:37 PM.
a posse ad esse
Well JoF, the list you have sums up the vast majority of pitchers left in my queue (and several that I'm voting for now). I, too, see no point in Grimes, but then I'm voting for Addie Joss so that tells you I'm not basing my opinion solely on DERA, WAR, WARP, or anything that may factor in defensive metrics.
I took a look ahead and see that in many of the years coming up in the early/mid 90s, we'll either have three strong newcomers, or none at all. We could have maybe a dozen holdovers elected by 2000 and that will clear the board of a lot of these pitchers.
Last edited by J W; 01-25-2011 at 10:31 PM.
September 16, 2012: The Losing Streak Ends
a posse ad esse
In regards to Sutton, he's made my ballot first try and it'll be hard to shake him off. I know he pitched in Dodger Stadium but he got going in the 1970s, after the mound was lowered. I'm particularly impressed by his career WHIP... and he was a dang horse out there. I think he's in good company with the other pitchers at the top of the charts. I mean we're talkin' Jose Mendez and Bob Lemon here, not Smokey Joe Williams and Christy Mathewson.
September 16, 2012: The Losing Streak Ends
Registered User
For me the centerfielders (all but Sheckard) are not yet among the best available backlog candidates.
Before ranking all of its members within fielding position (2008/2009) the Hall of Merit also ranked its members who were not in the Hall of Fame, 57 as of 2008, within four groups by Cooperstown jurisdiction.
Alejandro Oms is last among twelve who were ineligible for election by any of the Cooperstown panels because they played primarily before or beside the major leagues, around 1870 or in the Negro Leagues (Group 4). At #12 he trails Lip Pike and Dick Lundy.
Jimmy Wynn is #10 among twelve who were in the jurisdiction of the Hall of Fame members because they played entirely 1943 to 1987 (Group 2). There he is just ahead of Graig Nettles and Ken Boyer, the last-ranking of about 20 thirdbasemen. He trails Billy Pierce, the last-ranking of about 20 pitchers who played primarily 1924-58.
: HOM election results, ranking "Group 2"
The HOM classifies 27 of its members as centerfielders. In my opinion it's a top heavy and bottom heavy group. The HOM rankings show some agreement by the strong showings of Wynn and Oms among CFs combined with their poor showings in jurisdictions 2 and 4. (There is also a contradiction between Oms #20 ranking ahead of Lip Pike #23 among CFs, yet Pike ahead of Oms at the bottom of Group 4, also casts doubt on the meaning of that CF #20.)
See the Hall of Merit archives for the both sets of ranking elections. They constitute most of the threads from October 2009 back to January 2008 and all except Jan 2008 now show up on the first page of the archives directory.
: HOM Archives
Last edited by Paul Wendt; 01-26-2011 at 01:38 PM.
a posse ad esse
So in that project, he trails Lip Pike, but in the Centerfield rankings Oms finishes 20th and ahead of Lip Pike... as well as Cool Papa Bell, Edd Roush, Willard Brown, Pete Browning, and Andre Dawson. The only CFer ranked higher than him who has yet to be elected in our project is Jim Wynn (18th).
Hall of Merit rankings, CF 2008
September 16, 2012: The Losing Streak Ends
Registered User
1 Rod Carew
2 Jim Palmer
3 Burliegh Grimes
4 Eppa Rixey
5 Bob Lemon
6 Addie Joss
7 Luis Tiant
8 Don Sutton
9 Ed Roush
10 Lou Brock
11 Roger Bresnahan
12 Hugh Jennings
Researcher/advocate/mod
We now have a quorum on the player side, and are two away from that status on the contributor side.
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
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