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Thread: 1990 Best of Baseball Election thread

  1. #1
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    1990 Best of Baseball Election thread

    This is our fifty-fifth election in this project. The entire rules follow.

    This election will end at 11:59:59 PM EST on February 4, 2011.

    The prior election, and the ballots of the 1989 voters, are in this thread
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  2. #2
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    Rules

    1) All BBF users in good standing may participate. However, if there is more than one vote being cast from any one computer or IP, it must be cleared in advance. Should there be unannounced multiple votes from the same IP, I will investigate the circumstances, and all user names involved may be barred from this project as a result, and all but one of the multiple usernames permanently banned from the site. I only anticipate exceptions for family members living in the same home, but I will entertain requests on other bases. Please note that I and the other mods who participate in the project have the capability of determining the IP from which posts come, and I for one intend to monitor same. I have had to deal with a single user manipulating a project with multiple votes, and I don't intend to repeat the experience.

    2) Elections will require a 10 voter quorum. If we do not get ten voters and there are candidate(s) who would be elected no matter what the voters needed to make a quorum did, those candidate(s) will be inducted. Otherwise, no one will be inducted. Further, if we fail to meet a quorum in two of any four consecutive elections, the portion(s) of the project failing to meet the quorum requirement will end. If, for instance, we're doing fine on the player end but not the contributor end, I would drop the contributor end under this rule.

    3) We will start in 1936, just as Cooperstown did. For the first election (1936), voters will rank their top 20, taking 10. After that we will go to having voters rank their top 12 players. Points awarded 12-11-10, etc. We will take the top five through 1940, then top three players per year elected until 2010, then two per year. If a voter does not number his selections, I will try to get him/her to do so. If they do not do so before the end of the election period, I may in my sole discretion invalidate the ballot. I have included this provision in order to ease the process of recording the votes. On another point, I know, the 1936 backlog is huge--but that was a historical issue they couldn't avoid, so neither will we.

    4) We will also have a contributor ballot, which will elect one a year through 1985, then one every three (3) years. Contributors will be ranked 1 through 5, with points awarded 5-4-3-2-1. Voters may choose to participate in either one of the ballots or both.

    5) It is permissible to vote for a candidate on both the contributor and player lists.

    6) You are allowed to change your ballot at any time the voting is open. However, if you change your ballot, you've got to notify me (jalbright) by PM or by a new post in the voting thread, or the changes likely will not be registered.

    7) Players are eligible at the later of age 45 or the first year thereafter in which the player does not play. If the birthdate is not known, add five years to the first time the player misses a season and has less than 10 games the next season. There is an exception for early death, in which case the year of death plus two will be used if that yields an earlier date.

    8) Contributors become eligible at age 65 or in the year of death plus two. whichever comes first.

    9) Each election will run for approximately two weeks unless expressly altered by the project manager, contributors and players done simultaneously.

    10) No one is excluded from being a candidate, regardless of the league they played in, except those elected in either the contributor or player ballots. At that point, they are removed from further consideration. If there are players who returned to the Negro Leagues or Japan after going to the majors, the departure from the majors will be their career end date for purposes of this project.

    11) The standard for including a player on one's ballot is that the player must in the voter's opinion be among the very best eligible players (preferably the number voted on, but if a voter wishes to support someone they feel is 15th in a 12 person ballot instead of one of the top 12, it's too close for anyone to reasonably object. On the other hand, supporting the 25th best eligible candidate on a 12 person ballot is probably beyond the pale). I reserve the power to invalidate ballots which I do not feel are a reasonably knowledgeable, good faith effort to rank the players. One issue I am quite concerned about is that I do not want to see what clearly appear to be attempts to manipulate the ballot so as to elect a candidate. In isolation, I probably could live with this, but if it became a widely used tactic, the project would devolve into something I have no desire to be associated with. Moreover, I think that this position asks everyone else to cast legitimate votes so that you can manipulate the system to favor your pet candidates. I cannot accept that, as it strikes me as unfair to other voters. For example, you can't expect to favor even a legitimate HOF candidate like Bill Dahlen over Babe Ruth to get Dahlen elected without being asked to provide a reasonable justification for ranking Dahlen over Ruth. If you can provide a reasonable justification in that scenario, the ballot will stand. If not, you will be asked to make a change. I realize voters will sometimes have idiosyncratic choices, and I try to allow for that. However, a clear flouting of a consensus is apt to be met with a request that the ballot be justified pursuant to this rule. Certainly, a reasonable justification does not indicate in essence simply that you want Dahlen elected. Furthermore, if I invalidate multiple ballots by the same individual as failing to meet this rule, that individual will forever lose the right to have his/her ballots counted. Voters are encouraged to consider character, sportsmanship, and compliance with the rules and spirit of baseball in their rankings of players.

    12) I will post lists of eligible players and contributors before each election. If you have a question about the eligibility of a candidate, please ask. I will provide a list of future eligibility dates as well.

    13) My eligibility lists come from all persons in the BBF HOF, BBTF Hall of Merit, and Cooperstown, plus all persons getting a vote in a BBF HOF election in the past year and a half or in a BBWAA election. This is a relatively comprehensive list, and thus I must request that if you want another candidate included, you provide some justification for why said candidate is worthy of getting a vote in this project. The main area I think this might come into play is if a voter supports a person who was eligible for the final selections from the recent pre WWII or Negro League committees but not on my master list. That fact alone would serve as ample justification for putting said candidate on the list. We may learn more about Cuban ball or what have you and thus include others after a case is made for them, however. The contributor list is undoubtedly not as comprehensive, and this fact will be taken into consideration. For players, any request for a multiple time all-star in the all-star era will be approved. Players of that quality will generally be approved without much ado. However, when a player lacks that kind of qualification, I will likely ask for you to get a second from among our voters via a post in the current election thread. When in doubt, I will also require a second for suggested contributors. If a second is forthcoming, the player will be added. If not, the request will be rejected. I want to limit requests and seconds to players or contributors you actually might vote for.

    14) Other than the sportsmanship and character issues, players are to be evaluated solely upon their play. I would prefer that if a player is qualified by his play standing alone that he be elected on that basis. However, a candidate may only be elected either as a contributor or a player, but not both. Contributors are the area where the entire body of work during his career in the sport, including his play, managing, scouting, executive, writing, broadcasting or other work in the sport is relevant. Contributors are to be ranked based on who the voter thinks is most worthy of induction into the Contributor group in this project.

    15) Any ballot with two (2) or more spots unfilled with eligible candidates is invalid. In the event of the listing of ineligible names, I will try to notify the voter so that he/she can correct the ballot before the end of the voting period. If the change is made timely, it will count. If not, and there are two or more invalid names, the ballot will not be considered valid. If there is only one, the ineligible name will be stricken and all names after it on the affected ballot will be moved up one spot.

    16) Any players listed beyond the 12th place for any ballot but the first (in which case it is 20th place) will be ignored. If more than one person is listed as tied for the last available place and the ballot is oversize, all names will be dropped, which may lead to the invalidation of the ballot.

    17) Ties are not permitted in ballot listings. I reserve the right to invalidate ballots for use of ties in the rankings, be it within a single ballot or over the course of several ballots. If the voter does not correct such a listing voluntarily, except in the case of an oversize ballot tie for the last eligible place, if do not invalidate the ballot, I will choose the placement of the two "tied" candidates, generally preferring the candidate preferred by the other voters.

    18) For any ties between candidates straddling the in/out line of selections, the first thing considered is the ranking of the candidates by the ballots cast. If there are more than two candidates tied, use a 2-1-0 or whatever is appropriate for the number of players tied system. If a voter does not list a candidate, he receives zero points in the tiebreaker procedure. Once one person separates from the tied group, restart with the remaining candidates until there are only as many candidates as the rules call for being elected. If they remain tied after this process, the candidate with the most votes received wins. If it is still tied after that, those with the most #1 votes as the next step, then the most #2 votes and so on to see if that breaks the tie. If not, we will induct all candidates who remain tied at that point.

    19) One thing we're going to have to be aware of is the timeline in the case of at least a few contributors. Two which jump out at me are Buck O'Neill, 1976, and Branch Rickey, 1946. I intend to eventually vote for both men, but in 1946, Jackie Robinson was still in Montreal. Really, Branch should wait until at least 1947 after Jackie's success in the majors to get credit for that move. If you think Rickey belongs in the top 5 in 1946 without his role in breaking the color line, that's fine--but he shouldn't get credit for that important success until it actually happened. Buck O'Neill did some important things up until 1976, but after that he was in Ken Burns' Baseball and he was instrumental in the establishment of the Negro Leagues Hall of Fame (both occurred in or around 1994). If you think he belongs based on accomplishments before those two things, that's perfectly acceptable, but please don't credit him with them before they actually happened.

    20) I will maintain a thread of the project's history and rules which will provide a listing of all elected candidates.

    21) Feel free to ask questions by either sending jalbright a PM, or by posting a question in voting thread
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  3. #3
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    The players who become eligible in 1990 are:
    Code:
    Bowa , Larry
    Carew , Rod
    Ellis , Dock
    Holtzman , Ken
    John , Tommy
    Lopes , Davey
    Messersmith , Andy
    Monday , Rick
    Palmer , Jim
    Smith , Reggie
    Sutton , Don
    On the contributor side, we add these names in 1990:
    Code:
    Jobe , Frank
    Kuenn , Harvey
    Mauch , Gene
    Weyer , Lee
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  4. #4
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    The 1989 player candidates who were not elected had these results in the that election:
    Code:
    Players……………..	votes	points
    Oms, Alejandro	10	56
    Mendez , Jose	10	55
    Lemon, Bob	11	54
    Smith, Hilton	9	53
    Grimes , Burleigh	7	48
    Joss , Addie	6	43
    Jennings , Hughie	5	35
    Roush , Edd 	7	34
    Tiant, Luis	6	33
    Rixey , Eppa	4	28
    Torre, Joe	5	27
    Bresnahan , Roger	6	26
    Brock, Lou	4	26
    Wynn, Jimmy	5	19
    Keller , Charlie	2	18
    Kelley , Joe	3	18
    Berger , Wally	2	16
    Brown, Willard	3	15
    McVey , Cal	2	13
    Rice , Sam	2	12
    Sheckard , Jimmy	3	12
    Beckley , Jake	3	11
    Elliott, Bob	1	8
    Howard, Frank	1	7
    Koyama, Masaaki	1	7
    Cepeda, Orlando	2	6
    Lundy , Dick	1	6
    Aparicio, Luis	1	5
    Freehan, Bill	1	4
    Rizzuto , Phil	1	4
    Childs , Cupid	1	3
    Gomez, Lefty	1	3
    Matlock, Leroy	1	2
    Bando, Sal	1	1
    Pesky, Johnny	1	1
    Pike , Lip	1	1
    Sewell , Joe	1	1
    The 1989 contributor candidates who were not elected had these results in the that election:
    Code:
    Contributors………..	votes	points
    Tsuruoka, Kazuto	8	22
    Frick, Ford	5	19
    Rizzuto, Phil	5	17
    Greenlee, Gus	5	16
    Caray, Harry	2	9
    Harris, Vic	3	9
    Evans, Billy	2	8
    Caylor , O. P.	2	7
    Chandler, Happy	2	7
    Ferguson, Bob	2	5
    Krichell, Paul	1	4
    Smith, Red	1	4
    Jennings , Hughie	1	3
    Murnane, Tim	2	3
    Giles , Warren	1	2
    McCarthy, Tommy	1	2
    Murtaugh, Danny	1	2
    Abe, Iso.....	1	1
    I strongly suggest that you pay attention to this list, as the leaders of the holdovers are likely to join any strong newcomer candidates as the leaders for winning induction.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  5. #5
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    Members of the Best of Baseball Hall. Last election's inductees are in red.

    Players
    Code:
    Hank Aaron
    Pete Alexander
    Dick Allen
    Cap Anson
    Luke Appling
    Richie Ashburn
    Earl Averill
    Frank Baker
    Ernie Banks
    Ross Barnes
    John Beckwith
    Cool Papa Bell
    Charlie Bennett
    Yogi Berra
    Akira Bessho
    Lou Boudreau
    Ken Boyer
    Dan Brouthers
    Mordecai Brown
    Ray Brown
    Jim Bunning
    Jesse Burkett
    Roy Campanella
    Max Carey
    Steve Carlton
    Bob Caruthers
    Oscar Charleston
    Fred Clarke
    John Clarkson
    Roberto Clemente
    Ty Cobb
    Mickey Cochrane
    Eddie Collins
    Jimmy Collins
    Roger Connor
    Stan Coveleski
    Sam Crawford
    Joe Cronin
    Bill Dahlen
    George Davis
    Dizzy Dean
    Ed Delahanty
    Bill Dickey
    Martin Dihigo
    Joe DiMaggio
    Larry Doby
    Bobby Doerr
    Don Drysdale
    Buck Ewing
    Red Faber
    Bob Feller
    Wes Ferrell
    Elmer Flick
    Whitey Ford
    Willie Foster
    Nellie Fox
    Jimmie Foxx
    Frankie Frisch
    Pud Galvin
    Lou Gehrig
    Charlie Gehringer
    Bob Gibson
    Josh Gibson
    Jack Glasscock
    Joe Gordon
    George Gore
    Goose Goslin
    Frank Grant
    Hank Greenberg
    Heinie Groh
    Lefty Grove
    Stan Hack
    Billy Hamilton
    Isao Harimoto
    Gabby Hartnett
    Harry Heilmann
    Billy Herman
    Pete Hill
    Paul Hines
    Rogers Hornsby
    Carl Hubbell
    Kazuhisa Inao
    Monte Irvin
    Joe Jackson
    Ferguson Jenkins
    Grant "Home Run"Johnson
    Walter Johnson
    Al Kaline
    Masaichi Kaneda
    Tim Keefe
    Willie Keeler
    King Kelly
    Harmon Killebrew
    Ralph Kiner
    Sandy Koufax
    Nap LaJoie
    Buck Leonard
    Pop Lloyd
    Ted Lyons
    Biz Mackey
    Sherry Magee
    Mickey Mantle
    Juan Marichal
    Eddie Mathews
    Christy Mathewson
    Willie Mays
    Willie McCovey
    Joe McGinnity
    Bid McPhee
    Joe Medwick
    Minnie Minoso
    Johnny Mize
    Dobie Moore
    Joe Morgan
    Stan Musial
    Shigeo Nagashima
    Hal Newhouser
    Kid Nichols
    Phil Niekro
    Katsuya Nomura
    Sadaharu Oh
    Jim O'Rourke
    Mel Ott
    Satchel Paige
    Gaylord Perry
    Eddie Plank
    Charlie Radbourn
    Pee Wee Reese
    Robin Roberts
    Brooks Robinson
    Frank Robinson
    Jackie Robinson
    Bullet Joe Rogan
    Pete Rose
    Red Ruffing
    Amos Rusie
    Babe Ruth
    Ron Santo
    Louis Santop
    Tom Seaver
    Al Simmons
    George Sisler
    Enos Slaughter
    Duke Snider
    Warren Spahn
    Tris Speaker
    Victor Starffin
    Willie Stargell
    Joe Start
    Turkey Stearnes
    Harry Stovey
    Mule Suttles
    Ezra Sutton
    Bill Terry
    Sam Thompson
    Cristobal Torriente
    Pie Traynor
    Dazzy Vance
    Arky Vaughan
    Rube Waddell
    Honus Wagner
    Bobby Wallace
    Ed Walsh
    Paul Waner
    John M. Ward
    Willie Wells
    Zack Wheat
    Deacon White
    Hoyt Wilhelm
    Billy Williams
    Smoky Joe Williams
    Ted Williams
    Jud Wilson
    George Wright
    Early Wynn
    Carl Yastrzemski
    Cy Young
    Contributors
    Code:
    Doc Adams
    Mel Allen
    Walter Alston
    Red Barber
    Ed Barrow
    Buzzue Bavasi
    Ed Bolden
    Alexander Cartwright
    Henry Chadwick
    Frank Chance
    Charlie Commiskey
    Charles Conlon
    Tom Connolly
    Jim Creighton
    Jack Dunn
    Leo Durocher
    Rube Foster
    Clark Griffith
    Ned Hanlon
    William Hulbert
    Miller Huggins
    Ban Johnson
    Tetsuharu Kawakami
    Bill Klem
    Kenesaw Landis
    Al Lopez
    Connie Mack
    Larry MacPhail
    Joe McCarthy
    John McGraw
    Bill McKechnie
    Marvin Miller
    Walter O'Malley
    Dickey Pearce
    Cum Posey
    A. J. Reach
    Francis Richter
    Branch Rickey
    Jacob Ruppert
    Frank Selee
    Ben Shibe
    Matsutaro Shoriki
    Billy Southworth
    Al Spalding
    Alfred Spink
    J. G. T. Spink
    Casey Stengel
    C. I. Taylor
    Bill Veeck
    George Weiss
    Sol White
    J. L. Wilkinson
    Harry Wright
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  6. #6
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    The complete list of eligible players:
    Code:
    Adams , Babe
    Adams , Bobby
    Adams , Sparky
    Allen , Johnny
    Alou , Jesus
    Alou , Matty
    Alou, Felipe
    Altrock , Nick
    Aparicio, Luis
    Archer , Jimmy
    Arlett , Buzz
    Austin , Jimmy
    Avila, Bobby
    Bailey , Bob 
    Bancroft , Dave
    Bando , Sal
    Barry , Jack
    Bartell , Dick
    Battin , Joe
    Bauer , Hank
    Beaumont , Ginger
    Beckert, Glenn
    Beckley , Jake
    Belanger , Mark
    Bender , Chief
    Benton , Larry
    Berg , Moe
    Bergen , Marty
    Berger , Wally
    Berry , Charlie
    Bibby , Jim 
    Bigbee , Carson
    Billingham , Jack
    Bishop , Max
    Blackwell , Ewell
    Blades , Ray
    Blair , Paul
    Blass , Steve
    Blue , Lu
    Bluege , Ossie
    Bodie , Ping
    Boley , Joe
    Bond , Tommy
    Bottomley , Jim
    Bowa , Larry
    Boyer , Clete
    Bradley , Bill
    Brecheen , Harry
    Breitenstein , Ted
    Bresnahan , Roger
    Brewer , Jim 
    Bridges , Tommy
    Brock, Lou
    Brown , Willard
    Browning , Pete
    Bruton, Bill
    Burdette , Lew
    Burgess , Smoky  
    Burns , George J.
    Bush  , Joe
    Bush , Donie
    Bush , Guy
    Cadore , Leon
    Camilli , Dolph
    Camnitz , Howie
    Campaneris , Bert
    Cardenal , Jose
    Cardenas , Leo 
    Carew , Rod
    Carrasquel. Chico 
    Carrigan , Bill
    Carroll, Clay
    Case , George
    Cash, Norm
    Cavaretta , Phil
    Cepeda , Orlando
    Cepeda , Perucho
    Chandler , Spud
    Chapman , Ben
    Chapman , Ray
    Chapman , Sam
    Chase , Hal
    Chesbro , Jack
    Childs , Cupid
    Cicotte , Eddie
    Cissell , Bill
    Clark , Watty
    Clarkson , Bus
    Clift, Harlond
    Coakley , Andy
    Colavito, Rocky
    Collins , Shano
    Combs , Earle
    Conroy , Wid
    Coombs , Jack
    Cooper , Andy
    Cooper , Mort
    Cooper , Walker
    Cooper , Wilbur
    Courtney , Clint
    Cox , Billy
    Crandall , Doc
    Crandall, Del
    Cravath , Gavvy
    Criger , Lou
    Critz , Hughie
    Cross , Lave
    Crowder , Al 
    Cruise , Walt
    Cuccinello , Tony
    Cummings , Candy
    Cuyler , Kiki
    Dandridge , Ray
    Danning , Harry
    Dark , Alvin
    Daubert , Jake
    Davis , Curt
    Davis , Harry
    Davis , Spud
    Day , Leon
    Derringer , Paul
    DiMaggio , Dom
    Dinneen , Bill
    Doak , Bill
    Donlin , Mike
    Donovan , Bill
    Dooin , Red
    Doyle , Jack 
    Doyle , Larry
    Dropo , Walt
    Duffy , Hugh
    Dugan , Joe
    Dunlap , Fred
    Dykes , Jimmy
    Earnshaw , George
    Easter, Luke
    Edwards , Hank
    Ehmke , Howard
    Elberfeld , Kid
    Elliott , Bob
    Elliott , Jumbo
    Ellis , Dock
    Ennis, Del
    Ens , Jewel
    Erskine , Carl
    Evers , Johnny
    Face, Roy
    Fairly , Ron
    Falkenberg , Cy
    Ferrell , Rick
    Fitzsimmons , Freddie
    Fletcher , Art
    Flood , Curt
    Fonseca , Lew
    Foster , Eddie
    Fraser , Chick
    Freehan, Bill
    Fregosi , Jim
    Furillo , Carl
    Galan , Augie
    Garver, Ned
    Gelbert , Charlie
    Gleason , Kid
    Gomez , Lefty
    Gonzalez , Mike
    Gowdy , Hank
    Grant , Eddie
    Grantham , George
    Grimes , Burleigh
    Grimm , Charlie
    Grissom , Marv
    Groat, Dick
    Gromek , Steve
    Grove , Orval
    Gustine , Frank
    Haas , Mule
    Haddix, Harvey
    Hafey , Chick
    Hahn , Noodles
    Haines , Jesse
    Hallahan , Bill
    Harder , Mel
    Hargrave , Bubbles
    Harrelson , Bud
    Harris , Bucky
    Harris , Vic
    Hatton , Grady
    Hearn , Jim 
    Hegan , Jim
    Helms, Tommy
    Hemus , Solly
    Henrich , Tommy
    Herman , Babe
    Herzog , Buck 
    Hickman , Jim
    Higgins , Mike
    Hiller , John
    Hinchman , Bill
    Hodges, Gil
    Holmes , Tommy
    Holtzman , Ken
    Hooper , Harry
    Horton , Willie
    Houtteman , Art
    Howard , Frank
    Howard, Elston
    Hoy , Dummy
    Hoyt , Waite
    Huggins , Miller
    Hutchinson , Fred
    Irwin , Charlie
    Jackman , Will
    Jackson , Sonny
    Jennings , Hughie
    Jensen , Jackie
    John , Tommy
    Johnson , Bob
    Johnson , Davey
    Johnson , Judy
    Jones , Charley
    Jones , Fielder
    Jones , Sam P.
    Jordan , Tim
    Joss , Addie
    Judge , Joe
    Jurges , Billy
    Kaat, Jim
    Kamm , Willie
    Kawakami , Tetsuharu
    Kell , George
    Keller , Charlie
    Kelley , Joe
    Keltner , Ken
    Kerr , Dickie
    Kessinger , Don
    Killefer , Bill
    Kilroy , Matt
    Kinder , Ellis
    Klein , Chuck
    Kling , Johnny
    Kluszewski, Ted
    Knabe , Otto
    Koosman , Jerry
    Koyama, Masaaki
    Kremer , Ray
    Kress , Red
    Kuenn, Harvey
    Kuhel , Joe
    Kuzava , Bob
    Lange , Bill
    Lanier , Hal
    Larkin , Henry
    Larsen, Don
    Latham , Arlie
    Lavagetto , Cookie
    Law, Vern
    Lazzeri , Tony
    Leach , Freddy
    Leach , Tommy
    Lee , Bill
    Leever , Sam
    Lemon , Bob
    Leonard , Emil (Dutch)
    Lewis , Duffy
    Lewis, Buddy
    Lindstrom , Freddie
    Lobert , Hans
    Lockman , Whitey
    Lolich, Mickey
    Lollar, Sherm
    Lombardi , Ernie
    Lonborg , Jim
    Long , Herman
    Lopat , Ed
    Lopes , Davey
    Lopez , Al
    Lowe , Bobby
    Lucas , Red
    Lundy , Dick
    Luque , Dolf
    Lyle , Sparky
    Lyons , Denny
    Maglie , Sal
    Maloney, Jim
    Mancuso , Gus
    Manush , Heinie
    Maranville , Rabbit
    Marberry , Firpo
    Marion , Marty
    Maris, Roger
    Marquard , Rube
    Marshall , Mike G.
    Martin , Morrie
    Martin , Pepper
    Mathews , Bobby
    May , Lee
    Mays , Carl
    Mazeroski , Bill
    McAleer , Jimmy
    McCarthy , Tommy
    McCarver , Tim
    McCormick , Frank
    McCormick , Jim
    McDaniel , Lindy
    McDougald, Gil
    McGowan , Bill
    McGraw , Tug
    McInnis , Stuffy
    McLain , Denny
    McLean , Larry
    McMahon, Don
    McManus , Marty
    McMillan, Roy
    McNally , Dave
    McVey , Cal
    Meadows , Lee
    Mendez , Jose
    Messersmith , Andy
    Meusel , Bob
    Miksis , Eddie
    Milan , Clyde
    Millan , Felix
    Miller , Bing
    Miller , Dots
    Miller , Hack
    Monday , Rick
    Monroe , Bill
    Moon, Wally
    Moore , Jo-Jo
    Moore , Terry
    Moran , Pat
    Mostil , Johnny
    Mota, Manny
    Mulcahy , Hugh
    Mullane , Tony
    Mungo , Van
    Munson , Thurman
    Murphy , Danny
    Murray , Red
    Myer , Buddy
    Nehf , Art
    Nettles , Graig
    Newcombe , Don
    Newsom , Bobo
    Nicholson , Bill
    Niekro , Joe
    Northey , Ron
    O'Doul , Lefty
    Oeschger , Joe
    O'Farrell , Bob
    O'Leary , Charlie
    Oliva, Tony
    Oms , Alejandro
    O'Neill , Buck
    O'Neill , Steve
    O'Neill , Tip
    Orr , Dave
    Pabor , Charlie
    Pafko , Andy
    Palmer , Jim
    Pascual, Camilo
    Paskert , Dode
    Pearson , Monte
    Peckinpaugh , Roger
    Peitz , Heinie
    Pennock , Herb
    Perdue , Hub
    Perez , Tony
    Perkins , Cy
    Perranoski , Ron
    Perry , Jim
    Pesky , Johnny
    Petrocelli, Rico
    Phillippe , Deacon 
    Pierce , Billy
    Pike , Lip
    Piniella, Lou
    Pinson, Vada
    Pipp , Wally
    Podres, Johnny
    Poles , Spotswood
    Porterfield , Bob
    Powell , Boog
    Power , Vic
    Pruett , Hub
    Quinn , Jack
    Raschi , Vic
    Raymond , Bugs
    Redding , Dick
    Reiser , Pete
    Remsen , Jack
    Reynolds , Allie
    Rice , Del
    Rice , Sam
    Richardson , Bobby
    Richardson , Hardy
    Ring , Jimmy
    Ritchey , Claude
    Rixey , Eppa
    Rizzuto , Phil
    Robertson , Dave
    Roe , Preacher
    Rolfe , Red
    Rommel , Eddie
    Root , Charlie
    Rosen, Al
    Roush , Edd 
    Rucker , Nap
    Rudolph , Dick
    Ruel , Muddy
    Ryan  , Jimmy
    Sain , Johnny
    Sanguillen , Manny
    Sauer , Hank
    Schacht , Al
    Schaefer , Germany
    Schalk , Ray
    Schang , Wally
    Schoendienst , Red
    Schreckengost , Ossie
    Schulte , Frank
    Scott , Everett
    Scott , Jack
    Selkirk , George
    Severeid , Hank
    Sewell , Joe
    Sewell , Luke
    Sewell , Rip
    Seymour , Cy
    Shantz, Bobby
    Sheckard , Jimmy
    Sherdel , Bill
    Shocker , Urban
    Short , Chris
    Siebert , Sonny
    Sievers , Roy
    Simmons, Curt
    Sisti , Sibby
    Smith , Earl
    Smith , Hilton
    Smith , Reggie
    Smith , Sherry
    Sparks , Tully
    Stahl , Jake
    Stanky , Eddie
    Stanley , Mickey
    Staub , Rusty
    Steinfeldt , Harry
    Stephens , Vern
    Stephenson , Riggs
    Stottlemyre , Mel
    Street , Gabby
    Suhr , Gus
    Sukeforth , Clyde
    Sutton , Don
    Sweeney , Bill
    Tannehill , Jesse
    Taylor , Ben
    Tebbetts , Birdie
    Tenney , Fred
    Thevenow , Tommy
    Thomas , Ira
    Thomson , Bobby
    Tiant, Luis
    Tiernan , Mike
    Tinker , Joe
    Tobin , Jim
    Toney , Fred
    Torgeson, Earl
    Torre, Joe
    Travis, Cecil
    Trouppe , Quincy
    Trout , Dizzy
    Trucks , Virgil
    Turner , Terry
    Uhle , George
    Valo , Elmer
    Van Haltren , George
    Vander Meer , Johnny
    Veach , Bobby
    Vernon , Mickey
    Walberg , Rube
    Walker , Harry
    Walters , Bucky
    Wambsganss , Bill
    Waner , Lloyd
    Warfield , Frank
    Warneke , Lon
    Welch , Mickey
    Werber , Billy
    Wertz, Vic
    West , Sam
    Westrum , Wes
    White , Sol
    White , Will 
    Whitehill , Earl
    Williams , Cy
    Williams , Ken
    Williamson , Ned
    Willis , Vic
    Wills, Maury
    Wilson , Hack
    Wilson , Jim
    Wilson , Jimmie
    Witt , Whitey
    Wood , Joe
    Wood , Wilbur
    Wright , Glenn
    Wyatt , Whit 
    Wynn , Jimmy
    Yerkes , Steve
    York , Rudy
    Young , Pep
    Youngs , Ross
    Zachary , Tom
    Zimmer , Chief
    The complete list of eligible contributors:
    Code:
    Abe , Iso
    Ashford, Emmet
    Autry, Gene
    Bancroft , Frank
    Barlick, Al
    Berger , Sy
    Brickhouse , Jack
    Buck , Jack 
    Bulkely , Morgan
    Busch , Augie
    Cambria , Joe
    Campbell , Jim
    Canel, Buck
    Caray, Harry
    Carrigan, Bill
    Caylor , O. P.
    Chandler, Happy
    Chylak , Nestor
    Conlan , Jocko
    Cooper , Andy
    Cummings , Candy
    Dark , Alvin
    Dinneen , Bill
    Doubleday , Abner
    Dreyfuss , Barney
    Dyer , Eddie
    Dykes , Jimmy
    Elias , Al Munro
    Evans, Billy
    Feller, Sherm
    Fergsuon, Bob
    Fetzer, John
    Foster , John B.
    Fowler, Bud
    Frick, Ford
    Fullerton , Hugh
    Giles , Warren
    Gleason , Kid
    Gonzalez , Mike
    Gowdy , Curt
    Greenlee, Gus
    Grimm, Charlie
    Haak , Howie
    Haney , Fred
    Harridge, Willie
    Harris , Bucky
    Harris, Vic
    Harwell, Ernie
    Heydler, John
    Hillerich , John
    Hodges, Gil
    Hodges, Russ
    Houk , Ralph
    Howsam, Bob
    Hubbard , Cal
    Hutchinson , Fred
    Jennings , Hughie
    Jobe , Frank
    Krichell, Paul
    Kuenn , Harvey
    Lanigan, Ernest
    Lardner , Ring
    Leavitt, Jr. , Charles W.
    Luque , Dolf
    MacPhail, Lee
    Manley , Effa
    Mauch , Gene
    McCarthy , Tommy
    McGowan, Bill
    Mendez , Jose
    Mills , A. G.
    Mizuhara, Shigeru
    Moran , Pat
    Murnane, Tim
    Murtaugh, Danny
    Mutrie , Jim
    Navin , Frank
    Nelson , Lindsey
    Norworth, Jack
    O'Day, Hank
    O'Doul, Lefty
    O'Neill, Buck
    O'Neill, Steve
    Osborn , Frank
    Pasquel, Jorge
    Patkin, Max
    Pesky , Johnny
    Pompez , Alex 
    Pulliam, Harry
    Ramirez, Felo
    Reese , Jimmie
    Rice, Grantland
    Richards, Paul
    Ritter , Lawrence
    Rizzuto , Phil
    Robinson , Wilbert
    Schoendienst, Red
    Sewell , Luke
    Sheppard, Bob
    Smith, Red
    Stallings , George
    Street, Gabby
    Thayer , Ernest
    Tsuruoka , Kazuto
    Tyson, Ty
    van der Ahe, Chris
    Warfield , Frank
    Weyer , Lee
    Wilson , Horace
    Wrigley, Phil
    Yawkey, Tom
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    southeastern PA
    Posts
    14,805
    Blog Entries
    34
    My ballot

    Players
    1. Rod Carew
    2. Jim Palmer
    3. Alejandro Oms
    4. Jose Mendez
    5. Luis Tiant
    6. Bob Lemon
    7. Hughie Jennings
    8. Hilton Smith
    9. Roger Bresnahan
    10. Joe Torre
    11. Jimmy Wynn
    12. Joe Kelley

    Contributors
    1. Phil Rizzuto
    2. Kazuto Tsuruoka
    3. Vic Harris
    4. Iso Abe
    5. Tim Murnane

    Rod Carew and Jim Palmer take the two top spots, and Joe Kelley takes the #12 slot. On the contributor side, I added Tim Murnane.
    Last edited by jalbright; 01-22-2011 at 09:53 AM.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  8. #8
    Players:

    1. Rod Carew
    2. Jim Palmer
    3. Jimmy Wynn
    4. Reggie Smith
    5. Bob Elliott
    6. Roger Bresnahan
    7. Hilton Smith
    8. Bob Lemon
    9. Jimmy Sheckard
    10. Joe Torre
    11. Hughie Jennings
    12. Alejandro Oms

    Contributors:

    1. Harry Caray
    2. Phil Rizzuto
    3. Ford Frick
    4. Kazuto Tsuruoka
    5. Bob Ferguson

    Carew, Palmer and R.Smith enter in at slots 1, 2 and 4 in their debut year. Bob Ferguson hits the contributor's side at slot 5. Hughie Jennings rejoins my ballot at slot 11 and Burleigh Grimes leaves my ballot after some reevaluations.

    In my consideration set are Sal Bando, Jake Beckley, Chief Bender, Wally Berger, Max Bishop, Lou Brock, Perucho Cepeda, Cupid Childs, Hugh Duffy, Bill Freehan, Burleigh Grimes, Dummy Hoy, Charley Jones, Fielder Jones, Joe Kelley, Rabbit Maranville, Cal McVey, Jose Mendez, Thurman Munson, Graig Nettles, Don Newcombe, Tony Perez, Lip Pike, Sam Rice, Pete Rose, Eppa Rixey, Edd Roush, Wally Schang, Joe Sewell, Urban Shocker, Rusty Staub, Luis Tiant Jr., George Van Haltren. Some may make my ballot, some may not depending on who we are looking at in terms of newcomers.

    How does Alejandro Oms compare to Reggie Smith, Jimmy Wynn, Edd Roush and Jimmy Scheckard? He just entered my queue, but I always thought of him as a borderline HOFer and I see he is very close to election.
    Last edited by jjpm74; 01-22-2011 at 03:50 PM. Reason: Slotted oms into slot 12 and bumped Bando temporarily.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    3,321
    I've completely re-worked my ballot, spending the past few weeks tinkering with my personal rankings (instead of actual legal work - I stand by my decision).

    01. Rod Carew
    02. Jim Palmer
    03. Hilton Smith
    04. Luis Tiant
    05. Eppa Rixey
    06. Jose Mendez
    07. Alejandro Oms
    08. Wally Berger
    09. Burleigh Grimes
    10. Jake Beckley
    11. Bob Lemon
    12. Jimmy Wynn

    01. Frank Jobe
    02. Kazuto Tsuruoka
    03. Ford Frick
    04. Phil Rizzuto
    05. Vic Harris

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    1,596
    Players:

    1. Rod Carew
    2. Jim Palmer
    3. Hilton Smith
    4. Addie Joss
    5. Alejandro Oms
    6. Wally Berger
    7. Jose Mendez
    8. Luis Tiant
    9. Roger Bresnahan
    10. Bob Lemon
    11. Willard Brown
    12. Joe Torre

    Contributors:

    1. Ford Frick
    2. Gus Greenlee
    3. Phil Rizzuto
    4. Kazuto Tsuruoka
    5. Vic Harris

  11. #11
    1 Rod Carew
    2 Hughie Jennings
    3 Jim Palmer
    4 Charlie Keller
    5 Joe Kelley
    6 Don Sutton
    7 Dick Lundy
    8 Masaaki Koyama
    9 Jimmy Sheckard
    10 Phil Rizzuto
    11 Alejandro Oms
    12 Jimmy Wynn

    Seaver and Carlton were #1 and #2 on my ballot, while Dobie Moore was not close. I can understand a vote for Moore though, as he appears to have had an outstanding peak in the 1920's Negro Leagues, while he deserves credit for his Army Wreckers years. The most subjective part is: how much credit for the army ball? I give him ~3 years of quality play with the Wreckers, which isn't enough.

    I notice that Don Sutton is not polling well in the early going...Am I overrating this career value candidate?...I could see myself dropping him to the end of ballot or just off if a persuasive informative argument was made...thanks guys. I find his career value to be excellent, while acknowledging that he has no peak, but a solid prime.

    jjpm74 in post 8 notes:
    How does Alejandro Oms compare to Reggie Smith, Jimmy Wynn, Edd Roush and Jimmy Scheckard? He just entered my queue, but I always thought of him as a borderline HOFer and I see he is very close to election.
    Personally, I have Oms, Smith, Wynn, and Sheckard as Personal Hall and Best of Baseball worthy, either low or just off ballot, while Roush is far off. Roush didn't have a particularly impressive long career candidacy and his peak is not exciting. Roush also benefited from much weaker competition from the Federal League and National League of the 1910s.

    In particular for Oms, MLE's at the Hall of Merit posit the following, from post 163 of the Alejandro Oms thread:

    http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/...ndro_oms/P100/

    OK, here's Oms in my WARP, using the latest available MLE's. To fill in the numerous gaps in Oms's career, I used the same approach that I do for war credit. For the completely undocumented period before he turned 26, I looked at all players who were 26 years old between 1917 and 1925 and played at least half the year in each of their age 26 to age 30 seasons. I ran regressions to see the correlations between their pre-26 MLB playing time and rates and their post-26 performance, and then applied those equations to Oms to get total pre-26 playing time and average rate performance. I then distributed the resulting total value on an increasing scale over his age 21-25 seasons.

    For his Venezuela seasons, where the data is too scanty to be useful, I looked at all MLB players who had played at least half a season in their age 36, 37, and 40 seasons, and got the correlations between those years and their performance at ages 38 and 39. I did the same for all MLB players who played at least a quarter of the season in their age 40 and 42 seasons against their performance in their age 41 season. The missing 1933, 34, and 36 seasons were filled in using the resulting equations.

    Here's the result:


    Year SFrac BWAA BRWAA FWAA Replc WARP
    1916 0.20 0.2 0.0 0.0 -0.2 0.4
    1917 0.65 1.1 0.0 0.1 -0.7 1.9
    1918 0.75 2.1 0.0 0.2 -0.8 3.0
    1919 0.85 2.8 0.0 0.3 -0.8 3.9
    1920 0.95 3.6 0.0 0.4 -0.9 4.9
    1921 0.95 3.8 0.1 0.3 -0.9 5.1
    1922 1.00 4.5 0.1 0.4 -1.0 6.0
    1923 0.98 4.0 0.1 0.7 -1.0 5.8
    1924 0.96 4.0 0.1 0.7 -0.9 5.7
    1925 0.97 3.2 0.1 0.7 -1.0 5.0
    1926 0.94 1.2 0.0 0.8 -0.9 3.0
    1927 0.98 3.1 0.1 0.4 -1.1 4.6
    1928 1.00 0.6 0.1 0.1 -0.8 1.5
    1929 0.98 4.9 0.1 -0.1 -1.0 5.9
    1930 0.62 -0.9 0.0 -0.4 -0.6 -0.6
    1931 0.91 1.4 0.1 -0.3 -0.9 2.0
    1932 0.86 0.0 0.0 -0.2 -0.9 0.8
    1933 0.79 0.4 0.0 0.0 -0.6 0.9
    1934 0.79 0.4 0.0 0.0 -0.6 0.9
    1935 0.79 1.3 0.0 -0.1 -0.6 1.8
    1936 0.48 0.4 -0.1 0.0 -0.4 0.7
    1937 0.26 0.2 0.0 -0.1 -0.2 0.3
    TOTL 17.66 42.4 1.0 3.5 -16.7 63.6
    TXBR 17.05 43.2 1.0 3.9 -16.0 64.2
    AVRG 1.00 2.4 0.1 0.2 -0.9 3.6


    3-year peak: 17.7
    7-year prime: 38.4
    Career: 64.2
    Salary: $164,153,473, a lower-tier but clear HoM'er. Worse than Wheat and Magee, similar to Stargell, Killebrew, and Reggie Smith, superior to Goslin, Wynn, and Dawson. Assuming the MLE's aren't super-flattening his career shape, he should be at the very bottom of a peak voter's ballot, as a sizable chunk of his career total comes from "hanging-on" seasons.
    The Hall of Merit voters also ranked players by position -
    Oms finished 20th, 1 spot below Earl Averill, 1 ahead of Cool Papa Bell, 2 spots below Jimmy Wynn, 2 spots ahead of Edd Roush. Sheckard is considered a left fielder, with Reggie Smith was elected to the Hall of Merit after Alejandro Oms - both were eligible for many "years" together.

    I have an order of:
    Sheckard - appears to have other worldly defense according to most metrics
    Oms
    Wynn
    Smith
    Roush
    Last edited by Jar of Flies; 02-02-2011 at 06:51 AM.

  12. #12
    Thanks for the excellent writeup on Oms! It appears that he is a lot closer to Scheckard than I originally gave him credit for. I have slotted Oms in at #12 on my ballot and temporarily bumped Sal Bando into my queue.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Jar of Flies View Post
    I notice that Don Sutton is not polling well in the early going...Am I overrating this career value candidate?...I could see myself dropping him to the end of ballot or just off if a persuasive informative argument was made...thanks guys. I find his career value to be excellent, while acknowledging that he has no peak, but a solid prime.
    Don Sutton had a few great years in the early 1970s, followed by a few flashes of greatness later in his career and put together a long career.

    5000+ IP, and an era+ of 108 combined with his 1971-1977 seasons is enough that I will probably vote for him eventually, but not enough to get consideration over the 12 I'm presently voting for. At present, I have Jim Palmer, Hilton Smith and Jose Mendez ahead of him with Mendez still in my queue.

  14. #14
    Part of my hitter rankings are based from Dan Rosenheck's interpretation of Wins Above Replacement.

    And more to explain the numbers:

    Rosenheck from post 422 of his WAR thread: http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/...arp_data/P400/
    I think one thing that has prevented some members of the group from making use of my WARP data is that most people aren't paying enough attention to distinguish between the system's results and my own personal idiosyncratic voting preferences (particularly my emphasis on peak rate). To help separate the two, I've applied a different salary estimator--the same equation Nate Silver currently uses to determine the market value of players today--which I think much better reflects the consensus approach to voting.

    The equation is $1,200,000 * WARP2^1.5 + $380,000. It rewards peak, but not too steeply: one season of 8 WARP2 (a year like Rod Carew's 1975 or Ted Williams's 1948) comes out 38% more valuable than two seasons of 4 WARP2 (a year like Julio Franco's 1986 or Mo Vaughn's 1995), and one season of 12 WARP2 (there aren't many, but Ty Cobb's 1917 is a pretty good fit) is worth 68% more than three seasons of 4 WARP2. And I apply it to seasonal WARP totals rather than rates, so in-season durability is rewarded as most of the group supports.

    So if you're fairly consensus-minded, and don't feel like taking the time to pore through a spreadsheet with tens of thousands of rows but just want the upshot on the conclusions of my research, here are the results of this Consensus Estimator. 2007 numbers are straight-line adjusted for the remaining 10 games. Strike seasons are filled out using the player's three-year average. 1943 and 45 are penalized with an extra 10% park factor (eg a 95 PF becomes 105) and -2 FRAA, and 1944 is penalized with an extra 20% park factor and -4 FRAA. I did a study on catcher playing time and found they play 58% fewer games than the other 8 positions on average, so catchers receive a flat 58% bonus to their salaries (prorated, so if a guy plays half a season at C and half somewhere else he gets a 29% bonus). War credit is given using the average production of the four surrounding seasons (two on either side); no other account is made for league strength above and beyond the standard deviation. Minor league and Negro League credit is taken from the group's MLE's. I only have data for MLB position players since 1893.
    Rosenheck has modified the defensive metrics he uses for seasons 1987-2005, but this currently does not effect this salary estimator for the BOB Election. His data correlates .98 with Fangraphs for the 2006-2008 seasons, so the 2006-2010 seasons can be used to analyze current players versus pre 2006 seasons.

    I have a copy of the most recent Excel spreadsheets if anyone would like me to send them, and they can be downloaded from the Hall of Merit Yahoo group if anyone joins.

    Rosenheck's system analyzes 1893-2005 WARP figures. He mentions that the run estimators from the pre-1893 era are too weakly correlated for him to be comfortable using them confidently, so he does his best to estimate the values from that time frame.

    The salary estimator he published in 2007 had the following figures for 1990 eligibles:
    Hughie Jennings, $176,844,480 (pre-1893 value estimated from BP WARP)
    xx - Dick Lundy - Rosenheck comments: The closest parallel to him--a defense-first, lowish-peak shortstop with 65 to 70 WARP2--seems to be Bobby Wallace (69.5). Wallace's best seasons by WARP2 were 7.2, 6.1, 5.9, 5.7, 5.6, 5.6, 5.4, while Lundy's are 6.4, 5.0, 5.0, 4.8, 4.7, 4.5, 4.5. So if we give Lundy 67.5/69.5 = 97% of Wallace's peak and prime, we get 6.9, 5.9, 5.7, 5.5, 5.4, 5.4, 5.2, making his 3-year peak 18.5 and his 7-year prime 40.0. That would still make him a low-peak candidate, but would give him a prime comparable to that of Campaneris and Rizzuto. My understanding is that Lundy is very much considered in the pantheon of Negro League players--there's no "But why haven't we heard of him??" issue here as there is with Clarkson. Given that reputation, finding out that he was not even quite the black Bobby Wallace actually seems like something of a disappointment. That said, 97% of Bobby Wallace is clearly a deserving HoM'er. Unless there are further changes to these MLE's, making the above adjustments to his peak puts him 2nd to McGraw on my peak-heavy, rate-based salary estimator and an easy first on my consensus estimator. If there are no further changes to these MLE's, I will have him #2 on my 2006 ballot.

    Joe Kelley, $174,808,494 (pre-1893 value estimated from BP WARP)
    Jimmy Sheckard, $173,782,257
    Phil Rizzuto, $173,175,176 (war credit for 1943-45)
    Charlie Keller, $173,121,159 (war credit for 1944 and the missing part of 1945)
    Joe Sewell, $172,113,587
    Dagoberto Campaneris, $167,565,867
    Alejandro Oms $164,153,473
    Gavvy Cravath, $164,012,445 (minor league credit for 1906-7, 9-11) - revision with Rosenheck comments - I think when I calculated Cravath for myself in the past, I was characterizing his fielding as substantially below average in the minors--I had somehow deposited him in the Greg Luzinski/Frank Howard bin. But if his career D was nearly average, then he's a clear HoM'er. A caveat is that my old DRA numbers show Gavvy as quite poor at the MLB level: -25 in 1913, -11 in 1914, +7 in 1915, -20 in 1916, and -11 in 1917. However, I don't think those numbers are park-adjusted, and I imagine there may be a Baker Bowl effect.

    125. John McGraw, $163,585,393 (pre-1893 value estimated from BP WARP) - elected as a contributor
    Reggie Smith, $162,388,814 (Japan credit for 1983)
    Johnny Pesky, $161,323,415 (war credit for 1943-45)
    xx Lip Pike - Rosenheck places him between Alejandro Oms and Jimmy Wynn on his all-time centerfield rankings.
    Jake Beckley, $160,305,046 (pre-1893 value estimated from BP WARP)
    Roger Bresnahan, $159,724,848
    Jimmy Wynn, $158,445,038
    Bill Freehan, $157,371,800
    Tommy Leach, $154,776,307
    Willard Brown $154,664,663 - Rosenheck comments: just a tiny nudge over the borderline, but probably deserving of election. Worse than Wynn, a bit worse than Dawson, comparable to the unelected Leach, superior to the elected Averill and Roush.
    Dave Bancroft, $154,096,301
    xx Cal McVey - rated a notch ahead of Quincy Trouppe in Rosenheck's catcher rankings.
    xx Quincy Trouppe - Rosenheck rated all-time catchers...Trouppe placement is between Freehan and Tenace.
    Jim Fregosi, $152,193,178
    Bob Johnson, $151,852,428
    Chuck Klein, $151,248,045
    Rabbit Maranville, $150,875,410 (war credit for 1918)
    Bobby Bonds, $148,958,773
    Toby Harrah, $146,788,510
    Gene Tenace, $146,753,677
    Kiki Cuyler, $145,816,749
    Cupid Childs, $145,685,369 (pre-1893 value estimated from BP WARP)

    Players who received votes in the 1989 Best of Baseball election not mentioned above:
    Joe Torre, $141,135,719
    Edd Roush, $140,737,906 (holdout credit for 1922 and 1930)
    Luis Aparicio, $136,192,622
    Sal Bando, $116,979,294
    Bob Elliott, $115,037,913
    Frank Howard, $110,035,741
    xx - Wally Berger - projected $ fall between Howard and Cepeda
    Orlando Cepeda, $104,799,732
    Sam Rice, $101,995,196
    Lou Brock, $99,297,793

    Two players I would like an explanation as to why they were elected here:
    Nellie Fox, $134,857,927
    Pie Traynor, $127,883,494
    Last edited by Jar of Flies; 01-23-2011 at 05:52 PM.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    6,954
    Blog Entries
    4
    1. Rod Carew
    2. Lou Brock
    3. Jim Palmer
    4. Joe Torre
    5. Don Sutton
    6. Edd Roush
    7. Frank Howard
    8. Orlando Cepeda
    9. Bill Freehan
    10. Cupid Childs
    11. Hilton Smith
    12. Alejandro Oms

    Tony Perez probably is first in line Reggie Smith too Tommy John in all fairness should be close as well sine I put Sutton in

    1. O.P. Caylor
    2. Red Smith
    3. Billy Evans
    4. Tommy McCarthy
    5. Bob Ferguson

  16. #16
    1. Rod Carew
    2. Jim Palmer
    3. Burleigh Grimes
    4. Edd Roush
    5. Bob Lemon
    6. Addie Joss
    7. Hilton Smith
    8. Luis Aparicio
    9. Don Sutton
    10. Lefty Gomez
    11. Alejandro Oms
    12. Jose Mendez

    Contributors

    1. Billy Evans
    2. Ford Frick
    3. Gus Greenlee
    4. Happy Chandler
    5. Kazuto Tsuruoka
    Bill Tom George Mark Bob Ernie Soupy Alex Sparky
    Joe Gary MCA Emanuel Sonny Dave Earl Stan
    Jonathan Neil Roger Anthony Ray Thomas Art Don
    Gates Philip John Warrior Rik Casey Tony Horace
    Robin JEDI

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Indianapolis
    Posts
    8,390
    Players
    1. Rod Carew
    2. Jim Palmer
    3. Alejandro Oms
    4. Bob Lemon
    5. Luis Tiant
    6. Jose Mendez
    7. Joe Torre
    8. Jimmy Wynn
    9. Burleigh Grimes
    10. Hilton Smith
    11. Edd Roush
    12. Roger Bresnahan


    Contributors
    1. Kazuto Tsuruoka
    2. Gus Greenlee
    3. O.P. Caylor
    4. Tim Murnane
    5. Vic Harris
    "The value of a stat is directly proportional to how good it makes Steve Garvey look." -- Nerdlinger

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Balmer, Merlin
    Posts
    7,575
    Players

    1. Rod Carew
    2. Jim Palmer

    3. Willard Brown
    4. Joe Torre
    5. Addie Joss
    6. Roger Bresnahan
    7. Don Sutton
    8. Bob Lemon
    9. Eppa Rixey
    10. Alejandro Oms
    11. Jose Mendez
    12. Edd Roush

    Sewell drops off again. Reggie Smith squeezes into 7th in the players' queue and is likely to rise soon alongside Joe Kelley. Tommy John settles into 4th in the pitchers' queue directly in front of Jim Kaat.

    Contributors

    1. Paul Krichell
    2. Hughie Jennings
    3. Danny Murtaugh
    4. Kazuto Tsuruoka
    5. Al Munro (& Walter) Elias

    I figure it's time to enter the name that I believe is most responsible for us the stat-heads existing as we do today... the founder(s) of the Elias Sports Bureau. Bob Howsam and Sy Berger are next, as well as Ford Frick if he needs a lil' push.

  19. #19
    Brad Harris from post 17:
    5. Luis Tiant
    9. Burleigh Grimes
    10. Hilton Smith
    Hey Brad...good to see you here and at the Hall of Merit ballots. In the 2011 Hall of Merit election, you ranked the following 1990 Best of Baseball eligibles as follows:
    (6) Luis Tiant, (9) Bob Johnson, (10) Don Newcombe, (12) Tommy Bridges, (13) Gavvy Cravath, (15) Eddie Cicotte.

    This made me curious...have you become better friends with Burleigh Grimes and Hilton Smith since your vote at the HOM in December.
    As a Hilton Smith HOM voter, I understand and condone your vote/rise in ranking.
    With regard to Grimes, I haven't been able to come around. When viewing Clay Davenports DERA (Defensive Independent Earned Run Average - found at baseballprospectus), or Sean Smith's WAR (found at baseball-reference.com), Grimes falls well short of many eligibles. Grimes looks much better through a raw win shares view, but studies have shown that the replacement levels have been set much too low to find raw win shares as reliable.

    For the Grimes voters, can you float me a reasonable argument for your support. Maybe I am just missing the boat on this one?

    Currently I see the following hurlers more worthy who remain unelected:
    Jim Palmer, Masaaki Koyama (I can understand those who have passed - numbers are challenging to interpret - however, the evidence that jalbright has shows Koyama as overwhelmingly deserving), Don Sutton, Urban Shocker, Hilton Smith, Don Newcombe, Jose Mendez, Jim McCormick, Vic Willis, Luis Tiant, Tommy Bridges, Billy Pierce, and Dick "Cannonball" Redding. For Sean Smith WAR fans, I would recommend looking at Tommy Bond, Tony Mullane, and Bob Lemon. For those who might like Baseball Prospectus WARP, I recommend Cincinnati Reds hurlers Eppa Rixey and Bucky Walters.
    Last edited by Jar of Flies; 01-25-2011 at 09:37 PM.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Balmer, Merlin
    Posts
    7,575
    Well JoF, the list you have sums up the vast majority of pitchers left in my queue (and several that I'm voting for now). I, too, see no point in Grimes, but then I'm voting for Addie Joss so that tells you I'm not basing my opinion solely on DERA, WAR, WARP, or anything that may factor in defensive metrics.

    I took a look ahead and see that in many of the years coming up in the early/mid 90s, we'll either have three strong newcomers, or none at all. We could have maybe a dozen holdovers elected by 2000 and that will clear the board of a lot of these pitchers.
    Last edited by J W; 01-25-2011 at 10:31 PM.

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Balmer, Merlin
    Posts
    7,575
    In regards to Sutton, he's made my ballot first try and it'll be hard to shake him off. I know he pitched in Dodger Stadium but he got going in the 1970s, after the mound was lowered. I'm particularly impressed by his career WHIP... and he was a dang horse out there. I think he's in good company with the other pitchers at the top of the charts. I mean we're talkin' Jose Mendez and Bob Lemon here, not Smokey Joe Williams and Christy Mathewson.

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by jjpm74 View Post
    ...
    How does Alejandro Oms compare to Reggie Smith, Jimmy Wynn, Edd Roush and Jimmy Scheckard? He just entered my queue, but I always thought of him as a borderline HOFer and I see he is very close to election.
    For me the centerfielders (all but Sheckard) are not yet among the best available backlog candidates.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jar of Flies View Post
    ...
    The Hall of Merit voters also ranked players by position -
    Oms finished 20th, 1 spot below Earl Averill, 1 ahead of Cool Papa Bell, 2 spots below Jimmy Wynn, 2 spots ahead of Edd Roush. Sheckard is considered a left fielder, with Reggie Smith was elected to the Hall of Merit after Alejandro Oms - both were eligible for many "years" together.
    Before ranking all of its members within fielding position (2008/2009) the Hall of Merit also ranked its members who were not in the Hall of Fame, 57 as of 2008, within four groups by Cooperstown jurisdiction.

    Alejandro Oms is last among twelve who were ineligible for election by any of the Cooperstown panels because they played primarily before or beside the major leagues, around 1870 or in the Negro Leagues (Group 4). At #12 he trails Lip Pike and Dick Lundy.

    Jimmy Wynn is #10 among twelve who were in the jurisdiction of the Hall of Fame members because they played entirely 1943 to 1987 (Group 2). There he is just ahead of Graig Nettles and Ken Boyer, the last-ranking of about 20 thirdbasemen. He trails Billy Pierce, the last-ranking of about 20 pitchers who played primarily 1924-58.
    : HOM election results, ranking "Group 2"


    The HOM classifies 27 of its members as centerfielders. In my opinion it's a top heavy and bottom heavy group. The HOM rankings show some agreement by the strong showings of Wynn and Oms among CFs combined with their poor showings in jurisdictions 2 and 4. (There is also a contradiction between Oms #20 ranking ahead of Lip Pike #23 among CFs, yet Pike ahead of Oms at the bottom of Group 4, also casts doubt on the meaning of that CF #20.)

    See the Hall of Merit archives for the both sets of ranking elections. They constitute most of the threads from October 2009 back to January 2008 and all except Jan 2008 now show up on the first page of the archives directory.
    : HOM Archives
    Last edited by Paul Wendt; 01-26-2011 at 01:38 PM.

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Balmer, Merlin
    Posts
    7,575
    So in that project, he trails Lip Pike, but in the Centerfield rankings Oms finishes 20th and ahead of Lip Pike... as well as Cool Papa Bell, Edd Roush, Willard Brown, Pete Browning, and Andre Dawson. The only CFer ranked higher than him who has yet to be elected in our project is Jim Wynn (18th).

    Hall of Merit rankings, CF 2008

  24. #24
    1 Rod Carew
    2 Jim Palmer
    3 Burliegh Grimes
    4 Eppa Rixey
    5 Bob Lemon
    6 Addie Joss
    7 Luis Tiant
    8 Don Sutton
    9 Ed Roush
    10 Lou Brock
    11 Roger Bresnahan
    12 Hugh Jennings

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    southeastern PA
    Posts
    14,805
    Blog Entries
    34
    We now have a quorum on the player side, and are two away from that status on the contributor side.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

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