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Thread: 1989 Best of Baseball Election thread

  1. #1
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    1989 Best of Baseball Election thread

    This is our fifty-fourth election in this project. The entire rules follow.

    This election will end at 11:59:59 PM EST on January 21, 2011.

    The prior election, and the ballots of the 1988 voters, are in this thread
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  2. #2
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    Rules

    1) All BBF users in good standing may participate. However, if there is more than one vote being cast from any one computer or IP, it must be cleared in advance. Should there be unannounced multiple votes from the same IP, I will investigate the circumstances, and all user names involved may be barred from this project as a result, and all but one of the multiple usernames permanently banned from the site. I only anticipate exceptions for family members living in the same home, but I will entertain requests on other bases. Please note that I and the other mods who participate in the project have the capability of determining the IP from which posts come, and I for one intend to monitor same. I have had to deal with a single user manipulating a project with multiple votes, and I don't intend to repeat the experience.

    2) Elections will require a 10 voter quorum. If we do not get ten voters and there are candidate(s) who would be elected no matter what the voters needed to make a quorum did, those candidate(s) will be inducted. Otherwise, no one will be inducted. Further, if we fail to meet a quorum in two of any four consecutive elections, the portion(s) of the project failing to meet the quorum requirement will end. If, for instance, we're doing fine on the player end but not the contributor end, I would drop the contributor end under this rule.

    3) We will start in 1936, just as Cooperstown did. For the first election (1936), voters will rank their top 20, taking 10. After that we will go to having voters rank their top 12 players. Points awarded 12-11-10, etc. We will take the top five through 1940, then top three players per year elected until 2010, then two per year. If a voter does not number his selections, I will try to get him/her to do so. If they do not do so before the end of the election period, I may in my sole discretion invalidate the ballot. I have included this provision in order to ease the process of recording the votes. On another point, I know, the 1936 backlog is huge--but that was a historical issue they couldn't avoid, so neither will we.

    4) We will also have a contributor ballot, which will elect one a year through 1985, then one every three (3) years. Contributors will be ranked 1 through 5, with points awarded 5-4-3-2-1. Voters may choose to participate in either one of the ballots or both.

    5) It is permissible to vote for a candidate on both the contributor and player lists.

    6) You are allowed to change your ballot at any time the voting is open. However, if you change your ballot, you've got to notify me (jalbright) by PM or by a new post in the voting thread, or the changes likely will not be registered.

    7) Players are eligible at the later of age 45 or the first year thereafter in which the player does not play. If the birthdate is not known, add five years to the first time the player misses a season and has less than 10 games the next season. There is an exception for early death, in which case the year of death plus two will be used if that yields an earlier date.

    8) Contributors become eligible at age 65 or in the year of death plus two. whichever comes first.

    9) Each election will run for approximately two weeks unless expressly altered by the project manager, contributors and players done simultaneously.

    10) No one is excluded from being a candidate, regardless of the league they played in, except those elected in either the contributor or player ballots. At that point, they are removed from further consideration. If there are players who returned to the Negro Leagues or Japan after going to the majors, the departure from the majors will be their career end date for purposes of this project.

    11) The standard for including a player on one's ballot is that the player must in the voter's opinion be among the very best eligible players (preferably the number voted on, but if a voter wishes to support someone they feel is 15th in a 12 person ballot instead of one of the top 12, it's too close for anyone to reasonably object. On the other hand, supporting the 25th best eligible candidate on a 12 person ballot is probably beyond the pale). I reserve the power to invalidate ballots which I do not feel are a reasonably knowledgeable, good faith effort to rank the players. One issue I am quite concerned about is that I do not want to see what clearly appear to be attempts to manipulate the ballot so as to elect a candidate. In isolation, I probably could live with this, but if it became a widely used tactic, the project would devolve into something I have no desire to be associated with. Moreover, I think that this position asks everyone else to cast legitimate votes so that you can manipulate the system to favor your pet candidates. I cannot accept that, as it strikes me as unfair to other voters. For example, you can't expect to favor even a legitimate HOF candidate like Bill Dahlen over Babe Ruth to get Dahlen elected without being asked to provide a reasonable justification for ranking Dahlen over Ruth. If you can provide a reasonable justification in that scenario, the ballot will stand. If not, you will be asked to make a change. I realize voters will sometimes have idiosyncratic choices, and I try to allow for that. However, a clear flouting of a consensus is apt to be met with a request that the ballot be justified pursuant to this rule. Certainly, a reasonable justification does not indicate in essence simply that you want Dahlen elected. Furthermore, if I invalidate multiple ballots by the same individual as failing to meet this rule, that individual will forever lose the right to have his/her ballots counted. Voters are encouraged to consider character, sportsmanship, and compliance with the rules and spirit of baseball in their rankings of players.

    12) I will post lists of eligible players and contributors before each election. If you have a question about the eligibility of a candidate, please ask. I will provide a list of future eligibility dates as well.

    13) My eligibility lists come from all persons in the BBF HOF, BBTF Hall of Merit, and Cooperstown, plus all persons getting a vote in a BBF HOF election in the past year and a half or in a BBWAA election. This is a relatively comprehensive list, and thus I must request that if you want another candidate included, you provide some justification for why said candidate is worthy of getting a vote in this project. The main area I think this might come into play is if a voter supports a person who was eligible for the final selections from the recent pre WWII or Negro League committees but not on my master list. That fact alone would serve as ample justification for putting said candidate on the list. We may learn more about Cuban ball or what have you and thus include others after a case is made for them, however. The contributor list is undoubtedly not as comprehensive, and this fact will be taken into consideration. For players, any request for a multiple time all-star in the all-star era will be approved. Players of that quality will generally be approved without much ado. However, when a player lacks that kind of qualification, I will likely ask for you to get a second from among our voters via a post in the current election thread. When in doubt, I will also require a second for suggested contributors. If a second is forthcoming, the player will be added. If not, the request will be rejected. I want to limit requests and seconds to players or contributors you actually might vote for.

    14) Other than the sportsmanship and character issues, players are to be evaluated solely upon their play. I would prefer that if a player is qualified by his play standing alone that he be elected on that basis. However, a candidate may only be elected either as a contributor or a player, but not both. Contributors are the area where the entire body of work during his career in the sport, including his play, managing, scouting, executive, writing, broadcasting or other work in the sport is relevant. Contributors are to be ranked based on who the voter thinks is most worthy of induction into the Contributor group in this project.

    15) Any ballot with two (2) or more spots unfilled with eligible candidates is invalid. In the event of the listing of ineligible names, I will try to notify the voter so that he/she can correct the ballot before the end of the voting period. If the change is made timely, it will count. If not, and there are two or more invalid names, the ballot will not be considered valid. If there is only one, the ineligible name will be stricken and all names after it on the affected ballot will be moved up one spot.

    16) Any players listed beyond the 12th place for any ballot but the first (in which case it is 20th place) will be ignored. If more than one person is listed as tied for the last available place and the ballot is oversize, all names will be dropped, which may lead to the invalidation of the ballot.

    17) Ties are not permitted in ballot listings. I reserve the right to invalidate ballots for use of ties in the rankings, be it within a single ballot or over the course of several ballots. If the voter does not correct such a listing voluntarily, except in the case of an oversize ballot tie for the last eligible place, if do not invalidate the ballot, I will choose the placement of the two "tied" candidates, generally preferring the candidate preferred by the other voters.

    18) For any ties between candidates straddling the in/out line of selections, the first thing considered is the ranking of the candidates by the ballots cast. If there are more than two candidates tied, use a 2-1-0 or whatever is appropriate for the number of players tied system. If a voter does not list a candidate, he receives zero points in the tiebreaker procedure. Once one person separates from the tied group, restart with the remaining candidates until there are only as many candidates as the rules call for being elected. If they remain tied after this process, the candidate with the most votes received wins. If it is still tied after that, those with the most #1 votes as the next step, then the most #2 votes and so on to see if that breaks the tie. If not, we will induct all candidates who remain tied at that point.

    19) One thing we're going to have to be aware of is the timeline in the case of at least a few contributors. Two which jump out at me are Buck O'Neill, 1976, and Branch Rickey, 1946. I intend to eventually vote for both men, but in 1946, Jackie Robinson was still in Montreal. Really, Branch should wait until at least 1947 after Jackie's success in the majors to get credit for that move. If you think Rickey belongs in the top 5 in 1946 without his role in breaking the color line, that's fine--but he shouldn't get credit for that important success until it actually happened. Buck O'Neill did some important things up until 1976, but after that he was in Ken Burns' Baseball and he was instrumental in the establishment of the Negro Leagues Hall of Fame (both occurred in or around 1994). If you think he belongs based on accomplishments before those two things, that's perfectly acceptable, but please don't credit him with them before they actually happened.

    20) I will maintain a thread of the project's history and rules which will provide a listing of all elected candidates.

    21) Feel free to ask questions by either sending jalbright a PM, or by posting a question in voting thread
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  3. #3
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    The players who become eligible in 1989 are:
    Code:
    Bando , Sal
    Belanger , Mark
    Bibby , Jim 
    Blair , Paul
    Carlton , Steve
    Harrelson , Bud
    Jackson , Sonny
    Lyle , Sparky
    McGraw , Tug
    McLain , Denny
    Nettles , Graig
    Niekro , Joe
    Sanguillen , Manny
    Seaver , Tom 
    Staub , Rusty
    On the contributor side, we add these names in 1989:
    Code:
    Berger , Sy
    Buck , Jack 
    Campbell , Jim
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  4. #4
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    The 1988 player candidates who were not elected had these results in the that election:
    Code:
    Player……………..	votes	pts
    Moore , Dobie	8	54
    Mendez , Jose	9	53
    Oms, Alejandro	9	51
    Lemon, Bob	9	49
    Smith, Hilton	9	49
    Grimes , Burleigh	7	45
    Joss , Addie	6	41
    Roush , Edd 	6	30
    Tiant, Luis	6	29
    Rixey , Eppa	4	28
    Torre, Joe	5	25
    Brock, Lou	4	24
    Jennings , Hughie	3	22
    Bresnahan , Roger	6	21
    Berger , Wally	2	15
    Wynn, Jimmy	3	14
    Brown, Willard	2	13
    McVey , Cal	2	13
    Beckley , Jake	3	10
    Richardson , Hardy	1	10
    Keller , Charlie	1	9
    Kelley , Joe	2	9
    Elliott, Bob	1	7
    Howard, Frank	1	7
    Cepeda, Orlando	2	6
    Sheckard , Jimmy	2	6
    Aparicio, Luis	1	4
    Freehan, Bill	1	4
    Childs , Cupid	1	3
    Gomez, Lefty	1	2
    Matlock, Leroy	1	1
    Rice , Sam	1	1
    Sewell , Joe	1	1
    The 1988 contributor candidates who were not elected had these results in the that election:
    Code:
    Contributor………..	votes	pts
    Lopez, Al...	7	19
    Frick, Ford	5	18
    Tsuruoka, Kazuto	6	17
    Rizzuto, Phil	4	16
    Greenlee, Gus	5	14
    Caray, Harry	2	8
    Evans, Billy	2	8
    Caylor , O. P.	2	7
    Chandler, Happy	2	6
    Harris, Vic	3	6
    Ferguson, Bob	2	4
    Krichell, Paul	1	4
    Smith, Red	1	4
    Jennings , Hughie	1	3
    McCarthy, Tommy	1	2
    Murtaugh, Danny	1	2
    Giles , Warren	1	1
    Murnane, Tim	1	1
    I strongly suggest that you pay attention to this list, as the leaders of the holdovers are likely to join any strong newcomer candidates as the leaders for winning induction.
    Last edited by jalbright; 01-08-2011 at 02:08 PM.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  5. #5
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    Members of the Best of Baseball Hall. Last election's inductees are in red.

    Players
    Code:
    Hank Aaron
    Pete Alexander
    Dick Allen
    Cap Anson
    Luke Appling
    Richie Ashburn
    Earl Averill
    Frank Baker
    Ernie Banks
    Ross Barnes
    John Beckwith
    Cool Papa Bell
    Charlie Bennett
    Yogi Berra
    Akira Bessho
    Lou Boudreau
    Ken Boyer
    Dan Brouthers
    Mordecai Brown
    Ray Brown
    Jim Bunning
    Jesse Burkett
    Roy Campanella
    Max Carey
    Bob Caruthers
    Oscar Charleston
    Fred Clarke
    John Clarkson
    Roberto Clemente
    Ty Cobb
    Mickey Cochrane
    Eddie Collins
    Jimmy Collins
    Roger Connor
    Stan Coveleski
    Sam Crawford
    Joe Cronin
    Bill Dahlen
    George Davis
    Dizzy Dean
    Ed Delahanty
    Bill Dickey
    Martin Dihigo
    Joe DiMaggio
    Larry Doby
    Bobby Doerr
    Don Drysdale
    Buck Ewing
    Red Faber
    Bob Feller
    Wes Ferrell
    Elmer Flick
    Whitey Ford
    Willie Foster
    Nellie Fox
    Jimmie Foxx
    Frankie Frisch
    Pud Galvin
    Lou Gehrig
    Charlie Gehringer
    Bob Gibson
    Josh Gibson
    Jack Glasscock
    Joe Gordon
    George Gore
    Goose Goslin
    Frank Grant
    Hank Greenberg
    Heinie Groh
    Lefty Grove
    Stan Hack
    Billy Hamilton
    Isao Harimoto
    Gabby Hartnett
    Harry Heilmann
    Billy Herman
    Pete Hill
    Paul Hines
    Rogers Hornsby
    Carl Hubbell
    Kazuhisa Inao
    Monte Irvin
    Joe Jackson
    Ferguson Jenkins
    Grant "Home Run"Johnson
    Walter Johnson
    Al Kaline
    Masaichi Kaneda
    Tim Keefe
    Willie Keeler
    King Kelly
    Harmon Killebrew
    Ralph Kiner
    Sandy Koufax
    Nap LaJoie
    Buck Leonard
    Pop Lloyd
    Ted Lyons
    Biz Mackey
    Sherry Magee
    Mickey Mantle
    Juan Marichal
    Eddie Mathews
    Christy Mathewson
    Willie Mays
    Willie McCovey
    Joe McGinnity
    Bid McPhee
    Joe Medwick
    Minnie Minoso
    Johnny Mize
    Joe Morgan
    Stan Musial
    Shigeo Nagashima
    Hal Newhouser
    Kid Nichols
    Phil Niekro
    Katsuya Nomura
    Sadaharu Oh
    Jim O'Rourke
    Mel Ott
    Satchel Paige
    Gaylord Perry
    Eddie Plank
    Charlie Radbourn
    Pee Wee Reese
    Robin Roberts
    Brooks Robinson
    Frank Robinson
    Jackie Robinson
    Bullet Joe Rogan
    Pete Rose
    Red Ruffing
    Amos Rusie
    Babe Ruth
    Ron Santo
    Louis Santop
    Al Simmons
    George Sisler
    Enos Slaughter
    Duke Snider
    Warren Spahn
    Tris Speaker
    Victor Starffin
    Willie Stargell
    Joe Start
    Turkey Stearnes
    Harry Stovey
    Mule Suttles
    Ezra Sutton
    Bill Terry
    Sam Thompson
    Cristobal Torriente
    Pie Traynor
    Dazzy Vance
    Arky Vaughan
    Rube Waddell
    Honus Wagner
    Bobby Wallace
    Ed Walsh
    Paul Waner
    John M. Ward
    Willie Wells
    Zack Wheat
    Deacon White
    Hoyt Wilhelm
    Billy Williams
    Smoky Joe Williams
    Ted Williams
    Jud Wilson
    George Wright
    Early Wynn
    Carl Yastrzemski
    Cy Young
    Contributors
    Code:
    Doc Adams
    Mel Allen
    Walter Alston
    Red Barber
    Ed Barrow
    Buzzue Bavasi
    Ed Bolden
    Alexander Cartwright
    Henry Chadwick
    Frank Chance
    Charlie Commiskey
    Charles Conlon
    Tom Connolly
    Jim Creighton
    Jack Dunn
    Leo Durocher
    Rube Foster
    Clark Griffith
    Ned Hanlon
    William Hulbert
    Miller Huggins
    Ban Johnson
    Tetsuharu Kawakami
    Bill Klem
    Kenesaw Landis
    Connie Mack
    Larry MacPhail
    Joe McCarthy
    John McGraw
    Bill McKechnie
    Marvin Miller
    Walter O'Malley
    Dickey Pearce
    Cum Posey
    A. J. Reach
    Francis Richter
    Branch Rickey
    Jacob Ruppert
    Frank Selee
    Ben Shibe
    Matsutaro Shoriki
    Billy Southworth
    Al Spalding
    Alfred Spink
    J. G. T. Spink
    Casey Stengel
    C. I. Taylor
    Bill Veeck
    George Weiss
    Sol White
    J. L. Wilkinson
    Harry Wright
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  6. #6
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    The complete list of eligible players:
    Code:
    Adams , Babe
    Adams , Bobby
    Adams , Sparky
    Allen , Johnny
    Alou , Jesus
    Alou , Matty
    Alou, Felipe
    Altrock , Nick
    Aparicio, Luis
    Archer , Jimmy
    Arlett , Buzz
    Austin , Jimmy
    Avila, Bobby
    Bailey , Bob 
    Bancroft , Dave
    Bando , Sal
    Barry , Jack
    Bartell , Dick
    Battin , Joe
    Bauer , Hank
    Beaumont , Ginger
    Beckert, Glenn
    Beckley , Jake
    Belanger , Mark
    Bender , Chief
    Benton , Larry
    Berg , Moe
    Bergen , Marty
    Berger , Wally
    Berry , Charlie
    Bibby , Jim 
    Bigbee , Carson
    Billingham , Jack
    Bishop , Max
    Blackwell , Ewell
    Blades , Ray
    Blair , Paul
    Blass , Steve
    Blue , Lu
    Bluege , Ossie
    Bodie , Ping
    Boley , Joe
    Bond , Tommy
    Bottomley , Jim
    Boyer , Clete
    Bradley , Bill
    Brecheen , Harry
    Breitenstein , Ted
    Bresnahan , Roger
    Brewer , Jim 
    Bridges , Tommy
    Brock, Lou
    Brown , Willard
    Browning , Pete
    Bruton, Bill
    Burdette , Lew
    Burgess , Smoky  
    Burns , George J.
    Bush  , Joe
    Bush , Donie
    Bush , Guy
    Cadore , Leon
    Camilli , Dolph
    Camnitz , Howie
    Campaneris , Bert
    Cardenal , Jose
    Cardenas , Leo 
    Carlton , Steve
    Carrasquel. Chico 
    Carrigan , Bill
    Carroll, Clay
    Case , George
    Cash, Norm
    Cavaretta , Phil
    Cepeda , Orlando
    Cepeda , Perucho
    Chandler , Spud
    Chapman , Ben
    Chapman , Ray
    Chapman , Sam
    Chase , Hal
    Chesbro , Jack
    Childs , Cupid
    Cicotte , Eddie
    Cissell , Bill
    Clark , Watty
    Clarkson , Bus
    Clift, Harlond
    Coakley , Andy
    Colavito, Rocky
    Collins , Shano
    Combs , Earle
    Conroy , Wid
    Coombs , Jack
    Cooper , Andy
    Cooper , Mort
    Cooper , Walker
    Cooper , Wilbur
    Courtney , Clint
    Cox , Billy
    Crandall , Doc
    Crandall, Del
    Cravath , Gavvy
    Criger , Lou
    Critz , Hughie
    Cross , Lave
    Crowder , Al 
    Cruise , Walt
    Cuccinello , Tony
    Cummings , Candy
    Cuyler , Kiki
    Dandridge , Ray
    Danning , Harry
    Dark , Alvin
    Daubert , Jake
    Davis , Curt
    Davis , Harry
    Davis , Spud
    Day , Leon
    Derringer , Paul
    DiMaggio , Dom
    Dinneen , Bill
    Doak , Bill
    Donlin , Mike
    Donovan , Bill
    Dooin , Red
    Doyle , Jack 
    Doyle , Larry
    Dropo , Walt
    Duffy , Hugh
    Dugan , Joe
    Dunlap , Fred
    Dykes , Jimmy
    Earnshaw , George
    Easter, Luke
    Edwards , Hank
    Ehmke , Howard
    Elberfeld , Kid
    Elliott , Bob
    Elliott , Jumbo
    Ennis, Del
    Ens , Jewel
    Erskine , Carl
    Evers , Johnny
    Face, Roy
    Fairly , Ron
    Falkenberg , Cy
    Ferrell , Rick
    Fitzsimmons , Freddie
    Fletcher , Art
    Flood , Curt
    Fonseca , Lew
    Foster , Eddie
    Fraser , Chick
    Freehan, Bill
    Fregosi , Jim
    Furillo , Carl
    Galan , Augie
    Garver, Ned
    Gelbert , Charlie
    Gleason , Kid
    Gomez , Lefty
    Gonzalez , Mike
    Gowdy , Hank
    Grant , Eddie
    Grantham , George
    Grimes , Burleigh
    Grimm , Charlie
    Grissom , Marv
    Groat, Dick
    Gromek , Steve
    Grove , Orval
    Gustine , Frank
    Haas , Mule
    Haddix, Harvey
    Hafey , Chick
    Hahn , Noodles
    Haines , Jesse
    Hallahan , Bill
    Harder , Mel
    Hargrave , Bubbles
    Harrelson , Bud
    Harris , Bucky
    Harris , Vic
    Hatton , Grady
    Hearn , Jim 
    Hegan , Jim
    Helms, Tommy
    Hemus , Solly
    Henrich , Tommy
    Herman , Babe
    Herzog , Buck 
    Hickman , Jim
    Higgins , Mike
    Hiller , John
    Hinchman , Bill
    Hodges, Gil
    Holmes , Tommy
    Hooper , Harry
    Horton , Willie
    Houtteman , Art
    Howard , Frank
    Howard, Elston
    Hoy , Dummy
    Hoyt , Waite
    Huggins , Miller
    Hutchinson , Fred
    Irwin , Charlie
    Jackman , Will
    Jackson , Sonny
    Jennings , Hughie
    Jensen , Jackie
    Johnson , Bob
    Johnson , Davey
    Johnson , Judy
    Jones , Charley
    Jones , Fielder
    Jones , Sam P.
    Jordan , Tim
    Joss , Addie
    Judge , Joe
    Jurges , Billy
    Kaat, Jim
    Kamm , Willie
    Kawakami , Tetsuharu
    Kell , George
    Keller , Charlie
    Kelley , Joe
    Keltner , Ken
    Kerr , Dickie
    Kessinger , Don
    Killefer , Bill
    Kilroy , Matt
    Kinder , Ellis
    Klein , Chuck
    Kling , Johnny
    Kluszewski, Ted
    Knabe , Otto
    Koosman , Jerry
    Koyama, Masaaki
    Kremer , Ray
    Kress , Red
    Kuenn, Harvey
    Kuhel , Joe
    Kuzava , Bob
    Lange , Bill
    Lanier , Hal
    Larkin , Henry
    Larsen, Don
    Latham , Arlie
    Lavagetto , Cookie
    Law, Vern
    Lazzeri , Tony
    Leach , Freddy
    Leach , Tommy
    Lee , Bill
    Leever , Sam
    Lemon , Bob
    Leonard , Emil (Dutch)
    Lewis , Duffy
    Lewis, Buddy
    Lindstrom , Freddie
    Lobert , Hans
    Lockman , Whitey
    Lolich, Mickey
    Lollar, Sherm
    Lombardi , Ernie
    Lonborg , Jim
    Long , Herman
    Lopat , Ed
    Lopez , Al
    Lowe , Bobby
    Lucas , Red
    Lundy , Dick
    Luque , Dolf
    Lyle , Sparky
    Lyons , Denny
    Maglie , Sal
    Maloney, Jim
    Mancuso , Gus
    Manush , Heinie
    Maranville , Rabbit
    Marberry , Firpo
    Marion , Marty
    Maris, Roger
    Marquard , Rube
    Marshall , Mike G.
    Martin , Morrie
    Martin , Pepper
    Mathews , Bobby
    May , Lee
    Mays , Carl
    Mazeroski , Bill
    McAleer , Jimmy
    McCarthy , Tommy
    McCarver , Tim
    McCormick , Frank
    McCormick , Jim
    McDaniel , Lindy
    McDougald, Gil
    McGowan , Bill
    McGraw , Tug
    McInnis , Stuffy
    McLain , Denny
    McLean , Larry
    McMahon, Don
    McManus , Marty
    McMillan, Roy
    McNally , Dave
    McVey , Cal
    Meadows , Lee
    Mendez , Jose
    Meusel , Bob
    Miksis , Eddie
    Milan , Clyde
    Millan , Felix
    Miller , Bing
    Miller , Dots
    Miller , Hack
    Monroe , Bill
    Moon, Wally
    Moore , Dobie
    Moore , Jo-Jo
    Moore , Terry
    Moran , Pat
    Mostil , Johnny
    Mota, Manny
    Mulcahy , Hugh
    Mullane , Tony
    Mungo , Van
    Munson , Thurman
    Murphy , Danny
    Murray , Red
    Myer , Buddy
    Nehf , Art
    Nettles , Graig
    Newcombe , Don
    Newsom , Bobo
    Nicholson , Bill
    Niekro , Joe
    Northey , Ron
    O'Doul , Lefty
    Oeschger , Joe
    O'Farrell , Bob
    O'Leary , Charlie
    Oliva, Tony
    Oms , Alejandro
    O'Neill , Buck
    O'Neill , Steve
    O'Neill , Tip
    Orr , Dave
    Pabor , Charlie
    Pafko , Andy
    Pascual, Camilo
    Paskert , Dode
    Pearson , Monte
    Peckinpaugh , Roger
    Peitz , Heinie
    Pennock , Herb
    Perdue , Hub
    Perez , Tony
    Perkins , Cy
    Perranoski , Ron
    Perry , Jim
    Pesky , Johnny
    Petrocelli, Rico
    Phillippe , Deacon 
    Pierce , Billy
    Pike , Lip
    Piniella, Lou
    Pinson, Vada
    Pipp , Wally
    Podres, Johnny
    Poles , Spotswood
    Porterfield , Bob
    Powell , Boog
    Power , Vic
    Pruett , Hub
    Quinn , Jack
    Raschi , Vic
    Raymond , Bugs
    Redding , Dick
    Reiser , Pete
    Remsen , Jack
    Reynolds , Allie
    Rice , Del
    Rice , Sam
    Richardson , Bobby
    Richardson , Hardy
    Ring , Jimmy
    Ritchey , Claude
    Rixey , Eppa
    Rizzuto , Phil
    Robertson , Dave
    Roe , Preacher
    Rolfe , Red
    Rommel , Eddie
    Root , Charlie
    Rosen, Al
    Roush , Edd 
    Rucker , Nap
    Rudolph , Dick
    Ruel , Muddy
    Ryan  , Jimmy
    Sain , Johnny
    Sanguillen , Manny
    Sauer , Hank
    Schacht , Al
    Schaefer , Germany
    Schalk , Ray
    Schang , Wally
    Schoendienst , Red
    Schreckengost , Ossie
    Schulte , Frank
    Scott , Everett
    Scott , Jack
    Seaver , Tom 
    Selkirk , George
    Severeid , Hank
    Sewell , Joe
    Sewell , Luke
    Sewell , Rip
    Seymour , Cy
    Shantz, Bobby
    Sheckard , Jimmy
    Sherdel , Bill
    Shocker , Urban
    Short , Chris
    Siebert , Sonny
    Sievers , Roy
    Simmons, Curt
    Sisti , Sibby
    Smith , Earl
    Smith , Hilton
    Smith , Sherry
    Sparks , Tully
    Stahl , Jake
    Stanky , Eddie
    Stanley , Mickey
    Staub , Rusty
    Steinfeldt , Harry
    Stephens , Vern
    Stephenson , Riggs
    Stottlemyre , Mel
    Street , Gabby
    Suhr , Gus
    Sukeforth , Clyde
    Sweeney , Bill
    Tannehill , Jesse
    Taylor , Ben
    Tebbetts , Birdie
    Tenney , Fred
    Thevenow , Tommy
    Thomas , Ira
    Thomson , Bobby
    Tiant, Luis
    Tiernan , Mike
    Tinker , Joe
    Tobin , Jim
    Toney , Fred
    Torgeson, Earl
    Torre, Joe
    Travis, Cecil
    Trouppe , Quincy
    Trout , Dizzy
    Trucks , Virgil
    Turner , Terry
    Uhle , George
    Valo , Elmer
    Van Haltren , George
    Vander Meer , Johnny
    Veach , Bobby
    Vernon , Mickey
    Walberg , Rube
    Walker , Harry
    Walters , Bucky
    Wambsganss , Bill
    Waner , Lloyd
    Warfield , Frank
    Warneke , Lon
    Welch , Mickey
    Werber , Billy
    Wertz, Vic
    West , Sam
    Westrum , Wes
    White , Sol
    White , Will 
    Whitehill , Earl
    Williams , Cy
    Williams , Ken
    Williamson , Ned
    Willis , Vic
    Wills, Maury
    Wilson , Hack
    Wilson , Jim
    Wilson , Jimmie
    Witt , Whitey
    Wood , Joe
    Wood , Wilbur
    Wright , Glenn
    Wyatt , Whit 
    Wynn , Jimmy
    Yerkes , Steve
    York , Rudy
    Young , Pep
    Youngs , Ross
    Zachary , Tom
    Zimmer , Chief
    The complete list of eligible contributors:
    Code:
    Abe , Iso
    Ashford, Emmet
    Autry, Gene
    Bancroft , Frank
    Barlick, Al
    Berger , Sy
    Brickhouse , Jack
    Buck , Jack 
    Bulkely , Morgan
    Busch , Augie
    Cambria , Joe
    Campbell , Jim
    Canel, Buck
    Caray, Harry
    Carrigan, Bill
    Caylor , O. P.
    Chandler, Happy
    Chylak , Nestor
    Conlan , Jocko
    Cooper , Andy
    Cummings , Candy
    Dark , Alvin
    Dinneen , Bill
    Doubleday , Abner
    Dreyfuss , Barney
    Dyer , Eddie
    Dykes , Jimmy
    Elias , Al Munro
    Evans, Billy
    Feller, Sherm
    Fergsuon, Bob
    Fetzer, John
    Foster , John B.
    Fowler, Bud
    Frick, Ford
    Fullerton , Hugh
    Giles , Warren
    Gleason , Kid
    Gonzalez , Mike
    Gowdy , Curt
    Greenlee, Gus
    Grimm, Charlie
    Haak , Howie
    Haney , Fred
    Harridge, Willie
    Harris , Bucky
    Harris, Vic
    Harwell, Ernie
    Heydler, John
    Hillerich , John
    Hodges, Gil
    Hodges, Russ
    Houk , Ralph
    Howsam, Bob
    Hubbard , Cal
    Hutchinson , Fred
    Jennings , Hughie
    Krichell, Paul
    Lanigan, Ernest
    Lardner , Ring
    Leavitt, Jr. , Charles W.
    Lopez, Al
    Luque , Dolf
    MacPhail, Lee
    Manley , Effa
    McCarthy , Tommy
    McGowan, Bill
    Mendez , Jose
    Mills , A. G.
    Mizuhara, Shigeru
    Moran , Pat
    Murnane, Tim
    Murtaugh, Danny
    Mutrie , Jim
    Navin , Frank
    Nelson , Lindsey
    Norworth, Jack
    O'Day, Hank
    O'Doul, Lefty
    O'Neill, Buck
    O'Neill, Steve
    Osborn , Frank
    Pasquel, Jorge
    Patkin, Max
    Pesky , Johnny
    Pompez , Alex 
    Pulliam, Harry
    Ramirez, Felo
    Reese , Jimmie
    Rice, Grantland
    Richards, Paul
    Ritter , Lawrence
    Rizzuto , Phil
    Robinson , Wilbert
    Schoendienst, Red
    Sewell , Luke
    Sheppard, Bob
    Smith, Red
    Stallings , George
    Street, Gabby
    Thayer , Ernest
    Tsuruoka , Kazuto
    Tyson, Ty
    van der Ahe, Chris
    Warfield , Frank
    Wilson , Horace
    Wrigley, Phil
    Yawkey, Tom
    Last edited by jalbright; 01-08-2011 at 12:00 PM.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
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    My ballot

    Players
    1. Tom Seaver
    2. Steve Carlton
    3. Alejandro Oms
    4. Dobie Moore
    5. Jose Mendez
    6. Luis Tiant
    7. Bob Lemon
    8. Hughie Jennings
    9. Hilton Smith
    10. Roger Bresnahan
    11. Joe Torre
    12. Jimmy Wynn

    Contributors
    1. Phil Rizzuto
    2. Kazuto Tsuruoka
    3. Al Lopez
    4. Vic Harris
    5.Iso Abe

    Tom Seaver and Steve Carlton take the two top spots, and Jimmy Wynn takes the #12 slot. On the contributor side, I added Iso Abe.
    Last edited by jalbright; 01-08-2011 at 12:03 PM.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    3,321
    01. Tom Seaver
    02. Steve Carlton
    03. Wally Berger
    04. Burleigh Grimes
    05. Eppa Rixey
    06. Hilton Smith
    07. Alejandro Oms
    08. Jose Mendez
    09. Luis Tiant
    10. Jake Beckley
    11. Dobie Moore
    12. Bob Lemon

    01. Ford Frick
    02. Phil Rizzuto
    03. Al Lopez
    04. Vic Harris
    05. Kazuto Tsuruoka

  9. #9
    We just elected Sol White so the Contributors table at #4 needs correction.

    Indeed, the players table needs parallel correction.
    Now (after correction) the first four holdover Players are from the Negro Leagues.
    --if you prefer reverse alphabetical order, as Wendt does but Albright does not.

    Jose Mendez played primarily before the Leagues were established beginning with the first NNL in 1920. Dobie Moore played importantly and Alejandro Oms briefly before that time. Hilton Smith played importantly outside the Leagues but only including a couple years, at most, when no "Negro major league" was in operation.

  10. #10
    I do not anticipate repeating my last-minute vote for Tim Murnane so I am looking to add two Contributors. (I have been Murnane's only supporter, off and on, while all the others on my ballot now have support elsewhere.)

    Seeing Jack Buck on the list reminds me that I am always looking for comparative judgments of the so-called broadcasters. I do not have the interest to read much on that subject, certainly not to study, so I am hoping for remarks posted in this forum. --or the history forum, where we now have Bill Burgess' "Meet the Sportswriters".

    Vin Scully, Jack Brickhouse, Ernie Harwell, Harry Caray, Jack Buck: it's common to read suggestions and even explicit claims that so and so was a great one. Often it's my impression that that is written by someone who listened to so and so, perhaps for many seasons, but has not studied the subject.

    With our current group of voters it seems likely that we will elect none but Red Barber and Mel Allen, and someone such as Phil Rizzuto whose broadcast work is secondary. That's fine with me.

  11. #11
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Wendt View Post
    We just elected Sol White so the Contributors table at #4 needs correction.

    Indeed, the players table needs parallel correction.
    Now (after correction) the first four holdover Players are from the Negro Leagues.
    --if you prefer reverse alphabetical order, as Wendt does but Albright does not.

    Jose Mendez played primarily before the Leagues were established beginning with the first NNL in 1920. Dobie Moore played importantly and Alejandro Oms briefly before that time. Hilton Smith played importantly outside the Leagues but only including a couple years, at most, when no "Negro major league" was in operation.
    Correction made. Haste once again has made waste.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  12. #12
    1. Tom Seaver
    2. Steve Carlton
    3. Hughie Jennings
    4. Charlie Keller
    5. Jose Mendez
    6. Alejandro Oms
    7. Cal McVey
    8. Joe Kelley
    9. Willard Brown
    10. Jimmy Wynn
    11. Leroy Matlock
    12. Lip Pike

  13. #13
    1 Tom Seaver
    2 Steve Carlton
    3 Hughie Jennings
    4 Charlie Keller
    5 Joe Kelley
    6 Masaaki Koyama
    7 Dick Lundy
    8 Jimmy Sheckard
    9 Phil Rizzuto
    10 Alejandro Oms
    11 Jimmy Wynn
    12 Johnny Pesky

    I am insufficiently familiar with the contributor side of baseball to make a well informed ballot.
    Can I find a thread with detailed backgrounds of contributors to use as a guideline?

    If time permits, I plan to make comments on the 12 selections.
    I am impressed with the body of work of the Best of Baseball Hall.
    I do not see any HUGE oversights (Although my system likes shortstops and war credit candidates more), and I only spot two clear mistakes in my system (Nellie Fox and Pie Traynor) elected to the Best of Baseball- while the Baseball Think Factory Hall of Merit has elected four (Pete Browning, Rollie Fingers, Nellie Fox, and Edd Roush).
    Last edited by Jar of Flies; 01-09-2011 at 10:30 AM.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Balmer, Merlin
    Posts
    7,575
    Give us time. We haven't caught up to the Hall of Merit yet.

    Welcome aboard -- I'll get started on contributors with manager Al Lopez.

    Alfonso Ramon Lopez started as a MLB catcher who played for four teams from 1928-1947, and incidentally held the Major League record for games caught (1918) for a long time after his retirement. But that's not why we're voting for him.

    Al managed the Cleveland Indians (1951-1956) and Chicago White Sox (1957-1965, 1968-1969). He was elected as a manager to the National Baseball Hall of Fame in 1977. Notes on his tenure:

    - His career record was 1410-1004. His 410 career managerial wins are 23rd all time, and 12th at the time of his retirement. Every eligible manager with more wins than Lopez is in Cooperstown save one (Gene Mauch).
    - His .584 win% is 8th all-time (McCarthy, Mutrie, Comiskey, Selee, Southworth, Chance, McGraw).
    - My favorite managerial stat is "games above .500", where he also ranks 8th (McGraw, McCarthy, Cox, Alston, Selee, Clarke, Weaver).
    - Lopez managed only 64 games part-time in 1968-1969. In his 15 full seasons as a manager, Lopez's teams not once finished below .500 (worst record: 1962 White Sox, 85-77, .525).
    - In 10 of those 15 seasons Lopez's team won at least 90 games. In 12 of those 15 seasons Lopez's team finished 1st or 2nd in the American League.
    - Lopez managed both teams (Indians 1954, White Sox 1959) once to the American League Pennant. These were the only two years from 1949-1964 that the New York Yankees did not reach the World Series.

    If we were to play the "if" game; if it weren't for the Yankee dynasty, Lopez's overachieving teams would have dominated the AL and perhaps taken a World Series or three. As it is, he'll have to settle for being the definitive "bride's maid" manager in history, as well as one of the most influential on-field influences for Latin American baseball.
    Last edited by J W; 01-09-2011 at 02:11 PM.

  15. #15
    Players:

    1. Tom Seaver
    2. Steve Carlton
    3. Dobie Moore
    4. Jimmy Wynn
    5. Bob Elliott
    6. Burleigh Grimes
    7. Roger Bresnahan
    8. Hilton Smith
    9. Bob Lemon
    10. Jimmy Sheckard
    11. Joe Torre
    12. Sal Bando

    Contributors:

    1. Harry Caray
    2. Phil Rizzuto
    3. Ford Frick
    4. Al Lopez
    5. Kazuto Tsuruoka

    Seaver and Carlton debut at #1 and #2. Bando edges out Jennings for #12. Tsuruoka debuts at #5 to replace the elected S. White on the contributor's side.

    In my consideration set are Jake Beckley, Chief Bender, Wally Berger, Max Bishop, Lou Brock, Perucho Cepeda, Cupid Childs, Hugh Duffy, Bill Freehan, Dummy Hoy, Hughie Jennings, Charley Jones, Fielder Jones, Joe Kelley, Rabbit Maranville, Cal McVey, Jose Mendez, Thurman Munson, Graig Nettles, Don Newcombe, Tony Perez, Lip Pike, Sam Rice, Pete Rose, Eppa Rixey, Edd Roush, Wally Schang, Joe Sewell, Urban Shocker, Rusty Staub, Luis Tiant Jr., George Van Haltren. Some may make my ballot, some may not depending on who we are looking at in terms of newcomers.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    6,883
    Blog Entries
    4
    1. Tom Seaver
    2. Steve Carlton
    3. Lou Brock
    4. Joe Torre
    5. Edd Roush
    6. Frank Howard
    7. Dobie Moore
    8. Orlando Cepeda
    9. Bill Freehan
    10. Cupid Childs
    11. Hilton Smith
    12. Alejandro Oms

    Tony Perez probably is first in line

    1. O.P. Caylor
    2. Red Smith
    3. Billy Evans
    4. Tommy McCarthy
    5. Bob Ferguson

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Balmer, Merlin
    Posts
    7,575
    Players

    1. Tom Seaver
    2. Steve Carlton

    3. Willard Brown
    4. Joe Torre
    5. Addie Joss
    6. Roger Bresnahan
    7. Bob Lemon
    8. Eppa Rixey
    9. Alejandro Oms
    10. Jose Mendez
    11. Edd Roush
    12. Joe Sewell

    Nettles nestles nicely into the position players queue (7th), with Bando not far behind him (11th).

    Contributors

    1. Al Lopez
    2. Paul Krichell
    3. Hughie Jennings
    4. Danny Murtaugh
    5. Kazuto Tsuruoka

    No change, though Sy Berger is on the short list of imminent names.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    113
    1. Steve Carlton
    2. Tom Seaver
    3. Jose Mendez
    4. Hilton Smith
    5. Bob Lemon
    6. Alejandro Oms
    7. Dizzy Dean
    8. Burleigh Grimes
    9. Luis Tiant
    10. Edd Roush
    11. Lou Brock
    12. Addie Joss


    Contributors:

    1. Vic Harris
    2. Kazuto Tsuruoka
    3. Gus Greenlee
    4. Ford Frick
    5. Al Lopez
    "The kid doesn't chew tobacco, smoke, drink, curse or chase broads. I don't see how he can possibly make it." - Richie Ashburn

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Indianapolis
    Posts
    8,333
    Players
    1. Tom Seaver
    2. Steve Carlton
    3. Dobie Moore
    4. Alejandro Oms
    5. Bob Lemon
    6. Luis Tiant
    7. Jose Mendez
    8. Joe Torre
    9. Jimmy Wynn
    10. Burleigh Grimes
    11. Hilton Smith
    12. Edd Roush


    Contributors
    1. Al Lopez
    2. Kazuto Tsuruoka
    3. Gus Greenlee
    4. O.P. Caylor
    5. Tim Murnane
    "The value of a stat is directly proportional to how good it makes Steve Garvey look." -- Nerdlinger

  20. #20
    1 Tom Seaver
    2 Steve Carlton
    3 Burleigh Grimes
    4 Eppa Rixey
    5 Bob Lemon
    6 Addie Joss
    7 Luis Tiant
    8 Ed Roush
    9 Lou Brock
    10 Roger Bresnahan
    11 Hughie Jennings
    12 Orlando Cepeda

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    1,596
    Players:

    1. Tom Seaver
    2. Steve Carlton
    3. Hilton Smith
    4. Addie Joss
    5. Dobie Moore
    6. Alejandro Oms
    7. Wally Berger
    8. Jose Mendez
    9. Luis Tiant
    10. Roger Bresnahan
    11. Bob Lemon
    12. Willard Brown

    Contributors:

    1. Ford Frick
    2. Gus Greenlee
    3. Phil Rizzuto
    4. Kazuto Tsuruoka
    5. Al Lopez

  22. #22
    1. Tom Seaver
    2. Steve Carlton
    3. Burleigh Grimes
    4. Edd Roush
    5. Bob Lemon
    6. Addie Joss
    7. Hilton Smith
    8. Luis Aparicio
    9. Dobie Moore
    10. Lefty Gomez
    11. Alejandro Oms
    12. Jose Mendez

    Contributors

    1. Billy Evans
    2. Ford Frick
    3. Gus Greenlee
    4. Happy Chandler
    5. Al Lopez
    Bill Tom George Mark Bob Ernie Soupy Alex Sparky
    Joe Gary MCA Emanuel Sonny Dave Earl Stan
    Jonathan Neil Roger Anthony Ray Thomas Art Don
    Gates Philip John Warrior Rik Casey Tony Horace
    Robin JEDI

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
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    Quote Originally Posted by seaphil View Post
    ...
    7. Dizzy Dean
    Your ballot will still count with this inclusion of a guy elected in the last election. However, everyone below him would move up and the #12 spot would be empty. I'd prefer if you fixed this oversight, however. I'll also send you a PM on this topic.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
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    Posts
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    We have passed the quorum of 10 player ballots and are one shy of reaching the quorum on the contributor side.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  25. #25
    Players:

    1. Tom Seaver
    2. Steve Carlton
    3. Addie Joss
    4. Lou Brock
    5. Hilton Smith
    6. Jake Beckley
    7. Jose Mendez
    8. Edd Roush
    9. Roger Bresnahan
    10. Burleigh Grimes
    11. Sam Rice
    12. Bob Lemon


    Contributors:

    1. Happy Chandler
    2. Harry Caray
    3. Al Lopez
    4. Warren Giles
    5. Phil Rizzuto

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