Coaching to hit ground ball

[coops]

Why is it that so many coaches are coaching kids to try and hit a ground ball up the middle? This advice seems flawed to me. I have heard the argument that if you coach kids to try and hit ground balls up the middle line drives will come. Or another popular coaching cue is to hit down on the ball to create back spin. IMO you have a greater chance of succeeding with a ball hit out of the infield assuming that you are not trying to advance a runner. If line drives are ideal why not have your kids approach the plate attempting to hit a line drive?

Apologies if this has been covered in a previous thread... other threads have touched upon it.

[Jake Patterson]

Why is it that so many coaches are coaching kids to try and hit a ground ball up the middle? This advice seems flawed to me.

it is.. Coaches should teach to hit line drives. There are statistics that have been used here often that shows the flaws in teaching GB's. Many youth coaches do this because at the very young ages where errors are the rule, the hitters appear more successful than they really are... it eventually catches up to them.

I have heard the argument that if you coach kids to try and hit ground balls up the middle line drives will come.

I feel the swings are very different.

Or another popular coaching cue is to hit down on the ball to create back spin.

Simply ask the coach why? Few have a good answer.

IMO you have a greater chance of succeeding with a ball hit out of the infield assuming that you are not trying to advance a runner. If line drives are ideal why not have your kids approach the plate attempting to hit a line drive?

Bingo!

Apologies if this has been covered in a previous thread... other threads have touched upon it.

No problem...

[songtitle]

Man, coops, you are way ahead of the game.

Also just hit L screen balls back to the pitchers hand (not level), and stay away from 2 tee drills (unless you want to see if you have a bad swing).

[scorekeeper]

Why is it that so many coaches are coaching kids to try and hit a ground ball up the middle? This advice seems flawed to me. I have heard the argument that if you coach kids to try and hit ground balls up the middle line drives will come. Or another popular coaching cue is to hit down on the ball to create back spin.

Why do you think this is such a pervasive thing coaches do? I think the level you’re talking about may well be a factor.

Why do you believe that argument isn’t a sound one?

Do you believe using that as a cue is a bad thing? Is there a difference between saying hitting down on the ball will produce backspin, and using it as a cue to try to get a player to understand a concept?

IMO you have a greater chance of succeeding with a ball hit out of the infield assuming that you are not trying to advance a runner. If line drives are ideal why not have your kids approach the plate attempting to hit a line drive? …

Now that’s really an interesting question, and not one I can answer since I don’t track balls by their location. I suppose a lot has to do with your definition of success. Assuming you mean it to be reaching 1st base safely on a BIP as opposed to reaching 1st base safely on a base hit, I really don’t know.

Is trying to hit a ground ball up the middle the same thing as not wanting to hit line drives up the middle?

[coops]

Why do you think this is such a pervasive thing coaches do? I think the level you’re talking about may well be a factor.

Not sure why. I have mainly seen this coached U11-U14… My son is 14 and before U11 there is not as much emphasis where to place the ball.

Why do you believe that argument isn’t a sound one?

I believe that cue creates a greater number of ground balls and I have not seen any evidence that hitting the ball with backspin creates additional carry.

Do you believe using that as a cue is a bad thing? Is there a difference between saying hitting down on the ball will produce backspin, and using it as a cue to try to get a player to understand a concept?

Yes… if you want them to hit a line drive coach them to hit a line drive and use terminology that relates to hitting line drives not ground balls.

Now that’s really an interesting question, and not one I can answer since I don’t track balls by their location. I suppose a lot has to do with your definition of success. Assuming you mean it to be reaching 1st base safely on a BIP as opposed to reaching 1st base safely on a base hit, I really don’t know.

I meant base hit.

Is trying to hit a ground ball up the middle the same thing as not wanting to hit line drives up the middle?

I think it is saying you want them to hit a ground ball.

[sid17]

A ball hit with backspin does carry farther. Whether or not a hitter should consciously try to hit backspin is debatable. If a ball is hit with backspin its a bonus, if not, that's ok, the goal is line drives.

[dominik]

Why is it that so many coaches are coaching kids to try and hit a ground ball up the middle? This advice seems flawed to me. I have heard the argument that if you coach kids to try and hit ground balls up the middle line drives will come. Or another popular coaching cue is to hit down on the ball to create back spin. IMO you have a greater chance of succeeding with a ball hit out of the infield assuming that you are not trying to advance a runner. If line drives are ideal why not have your kids approach the plate attempting to hit a line drive?

Apologies if this has been covered in a previous thread... other threads have touched upon it.

the reason they do is because it's better than hitting lazy flies. Nothing is more frustrating than going down in order with 3 pop ups to the outfield on the 3 straight pitches. with little kids most fly balls end up as easy pop ups, esp. when they result from bad contact or hitting out front.

at least with GBs something can happen.

Of course this is not the real solution. the best thing would be to teach square, deep contact and hitting line drives. But since most are not able to do this, they choose the easy route and teach to slap the ball on the ground.

[coops]

A ball hit with backspin does carry farther. Whether or not a hitter should consciously try to hit backspin is debatable. If a ball is hit with backspin its a bonus, if not, that's ok, the goal is line drives.

IMO it is debatable whether a ball hit with backspin carries farther. It would seem to make sense…Do you have any evidence to support this? Maybe a ball with backspin will carry farther but is it possible that the type of contact required to create backspin is inferior to the type of contact created by a swing level with the plane of the ball and thus will not travel as far anyway?

[pstein]

IMO it is debatable whether a ball hit with backspin carries farther. It would seem to make sense…Do you have any evidence to support this? Maybe a ball with backspin will carry farther but is it possible that the type of contact required to create backspin is inferior to the type of contact created by a swing level with the plane of the ball and thus will not travel as far anyway?

To get backspin, you have to undercut the ball slightly. It's almost impossible to do willingly. Swinging down creates topspin/overspin. Hitting the bottom half creates backspin. "Swing down for backspin" is basically a false justification for the cue.

[Coach C]

Why is it that so many coaches are coaching kids to try and hit a ground ball up the middle? This advice seems flawed to me. I have heard the argument that if you coach kids to try and hit ground balls up the middle line drives will come. Or another popular coaching cue is to hit down on the ball to create back spin. IMO you have a greater chance of succeeding with a ball hit out of the infield assuming that you are not trying to advance a runner. If line drives are ideal why not have your kids approach the plate attempting to hit a line drive?

Apologies if this has been covered in a previous thread... other threads have touched upon it.

Here's a way to encourage line drives that I use with the kids (10u/11u/12u) in BP.
Set up a T at the back of the cage, T shafts all the way up, put a ball on top. The goal is to hit the ball off the T. Work on a point system with the team, 0 pts.=bounce hit T, 2pts. line drive hit T, 3pts. line drive hit ball (this one is rare). I usually give out baseball cards to top scores. It gets to be quite a competative drill.

[Chris O'Leary]

Man, coops, you are way ahead of the game.

Also just hit L screen balls back to the pitchers hand (not level), and stay away from 2 tee drills (unless you want to see if you have a bad swing).

This swing and drill is supposed to yield backspin line drives, but all I ever see is balls that are hit hard into the ground.

I guess nobody who does this drill does it right?

[scorekeeper]

Not sure why. I have mainly seen this coached U11-U14… My son is 14 and before U11 there is not as much emphasis where to place the ball.

If you think about, I’m sure you’ll see it. While many people measure batting success by batting average or OBP, coaches understand that one of the biggest plusses for an offense, is a negative for both BA and OBP. ROEs. Reaching on an error is not only as good as reaching any other way statistically, its better when it comes to the players on the field. Why? Because it makes one team feel bad, and the other team feel great.

And how do errors happen that allow runners to reach 1st? Other than the rare occasion when a catcher throws away a passed ball or the 1B drops an effort to throw out a batter after an uncaught 3rd strike, the ball has to be put into play. Not only that, balls put into play on the ground are far more likely to have an error made on them than one in the air.

The result is, if you’ve been around baseball for very long, you realize that the lower the level, the more likely a ball hit on the ground will produce a runner reaching 1st safely. Its purely an inexperience thing. Not only that, although many people don’t realize it, improving defensively is the easiest way to improve a team’s chances of winning.

I believe that cue creates a greater number of ground balls and I have not seen any evidence that hitting the ball with backspin creates additional carry.

I’ve already stated why at lower levels a higher number of ground balls will likely produce a positive result for the offense. As for you having seen evidence that backspin produces “additional carry”, all I can say is you should read the physics of baseball, but this might help.

Other than the force of gravity, do you know why a 12/6 curveball goes down? It does it because the ball has overspin. A fastball seem to rise because the backspin fights the force of gravity. The same thing happens to a ball hit with a bat.

Yes… if you want them to hit a line drive coach them to hit a line drive and use terminology that relates to hitting line drives not ground balls.

That would be fine except for one thing. Not all players will interpret words, let alone cues the same way. And, what’s the difference in the swing that produces a ground ball as opposed to a line drive? The ball has to be hit either way, and I’d say its pretty much agree that the shortest distance and time to the ball is the best approach to hitting the ball, so how does the swing differ?

Assume the ball is at the very top of the strike zone and down the middle. How is a swing that produces a ground ball different than one that produces a line drive? And for that matter, how it the one that produces a fly ball any different?

I meant base hit.

Then for sure I don’t know. Every year I score one Devil of a lot of base hits on ball that never leave the infield. Probably the best example I can give one way or the other can be seen here. http://www.infosports.com/scorekeepe.../scatter10.pdf

Those are the scatter charts for our hitters and pitchers last season. In general, if the mark is in the IF or the 1st set of areas outside of the IF dirt, the ball was on the ground. You can count them if you like, but I’m guessing that the number of hits on ground balls is roughly equal to the number of line drive or flies.

I think it is saying you want them to hit a ground ball.

I realize that’s what it is if taken as purely a black and white, “what was said” statement. But often things are said to try to get a player to produce a different result. FI, you might say “keep your eye on the ball”, but you know that really isn’t possible. I know there are coaches who tell players to try to hit the ball on the ground just to get them to have the feeling, but they really want line drives, and understand that one the mechanics are there, the line drives will come.

I also know of coaches who actually want ground balls because they understand it gives the players a higher percentage of opportunity of reaching 1st safely. Unfortunately, the signals ca get mixed, and the real message lost. But that’s part of a coach’s style, and one style doesn’t fit all.

I agree with you that it would be better all around for everyone to say exactly what they mean. Unfortunately, not everyone interprets things the same way.

[dominik]

Score:
according to wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On-base_percentage
does OBPP include ROE. Is that correct?

[cps]

Score:
according to wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On-base_percentage
does OBPP include ROE. Is that correct?

The formula had the following:

H = Hits
BB = Bases on Balls (Walks)
HBP = times Hit By a Pitch
AB = At bats
SF = Sacrifice Flies

and the AB includes ROE

[omg]

Why is it that so many coaches are coaching kids to try and hit a ground ball up the middle? This advice seems flawed to me. I have heard the argument that if you coach kids to try and hit ground balls up the middle line drives will come. Or another popular coaching cue is to hit down on the ball to create back spin. IMO you have a greater chance of succeeding with a ball hit out of the infield assuming that you are not trying to advance a runner. If line drives are ideal why not have your kids approach the plate attempting to hit a line drive?

Apologies if this has been covered in a previous thread... other threads have touched upon it.

It is very solid advice.

The "up the middle" part is so sound I won't go into it right now.

The "groundball" part is also very solid advice but not for any reasons stated. Forget spin, swing plane, or ability of infielders to field groundballs. The " groundball" part refers to a hitter aiming or erring more for the top of the ball-or higher- as a general rule. Even Ted Williams -great pull-hitting, home run hitter advises this.

These are the reasons:

1. When facing good pitching the fastball appears to rise significantly-especially when playing under the lights. People who don't hit don't understand this and they don't understand how big of a deal this is.

2. The mechanics of the swing are such that the tendency is to be underneath the ball. 9 out of 10 misses are underneath according to Williams. Whether or not that is true, you only need to go to a commercial batting cage and watch Daddy try to hit the fast pitching machine. Miss,miss,miss....under,under,under. The proper mechanics require the back leg to flex, the back shoulder,elbow, and hands to drop to varying degrees and often it is overdone-hitting is damn difficult.

So to err on the high side of the ball, especially in bp when a coach is probably throwing slower than game speed (good competition), is especially important.

3. Keep in mind, the goal is to hit hard, aggressive ground balls. Not out on the front foot, or trying to pull an outside pitch type of grounder.

Again, damn solid advice that yields results.

[pstein]

3. Keep in mind, the goal is to hit hard, aggressive ground balls. Not out on the front foot, or trying to pull an outside pitch type of grounder.

Again, damn solid advice that yields results

I don't agree. Hitting line drives up the middle or to the opposite field are much more productive in practice. Hitting home runs and ground balls, not so much.

[songtitle]

9 out of 10 misses are underneath

"Misses" is the key word here. Most outs are caused by hitting the top of the ball for a ground out.

[steddie]

Why is it that so many coaches are coaching kids to try and hit a ground ball up the middle? This advice seems flawed to me. I have heard the argument that if you coach kids to try and hit ground balls up the middle line drives will come. Or another popular coaching cue is to hit down on the ball to create back spin. IMO you have a greater chance of succeeding with a ball hit out of the infield assuming that you are not trying to advance a runner. If line drives are ideal why not have your kids approach the plate attempting to hit a line drive?

Apologies if this has been covered in a previous thread... other threads have touched upon it.

Not to worry coops -- this subject obviously needs more discussion -- not less!

[Jake Patterson]

here's something from an old thread:
http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/..._2004-02-29_0/

[songtitle]

another popular coaching cue is to hit down on the ball to create back spin.

Voodoo alert. Notice the spin... and the direction.

[Jake Patterson]

Voodoo alert. Notice the spin... and the direction.

Song what is this a clip of?? Batted ball?

[Switch_Hitter_29]

It is very solid advice.

Even Ted Williams -great pull-hitting, home run hitter advises this.


1. When facing good pitching the fastball appears to rise significantly-especially when playing under the lights. People who don't hit don't understand this and they don't understand how big of a deal this is.

Again, damn solid advice that yields results.

A. No he didn't. In his book Ted Williams said he tried to hit every single ball in the air. Reason, thats how you hit home runs, doubles, and triples.

B. If a good pitcher with a sinking fastball is trying to induce ground balls, why in the world would a good hitter try to hit a ground ball?


C. It might yield results in Little League when nobody can field a ground ball. It doenst work in high level baseball.

[songtitle]

Song what is this a clip of?? Batted ball?

No, a fixed bat with a ball shot at it. This way, it removes all the weird variables (that's a technical term) .

[omg]

A. No he didn't. In his book Ted Williams said he tried to hit every single ball in the air. Reason, thats how you hit home runs, doubles, and triples.

.

He tried to get the ball in the air because he was a prolific home run hitter. He did not advocate it for those who were not.

[steddie]

I wouldn't be surprised to learn in the final analysis that back spin may make a ball fly a little farther. But then again, you know how energy works -- you don't get more energy out than what you put in (well, except for some nuclear reactions maybe). The full energy that would have been imparted to the ball with double-sweet contact is instead reduced, due to part of the energy being used to create the backspin...