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Thread: BBF Red Sox Hall of Fame - Round One

  1. #1

    BBF Red Sox Hall of Fame - Round One

    REMINDER: The White Sox First Round Election is still open and will close on Sunday, February 20, 2011, at 11:00 a.m. (the Indians Election is also still open for a few more hours).

    This election will close on Tuesday, February 22, 2011, at 4:00 p.m.

    PLEASE READ THE FORMAT AND RULES SECTION BEFORE VOTING. THANK YOU.

    FORMAT AND RULES

    Purpose: The purpose of this project is to create a Hall of Fame for each franchise whereby each franchise will honor those individuals whose contributions and accomplishments are most notable, significant, and enduring to that franchise's history. This project is not about simply honoring those with the best statistics with each franchise.

    Standards: Each franchise has its own unique history and context, and thus contributions and accomplishments that may stand out remarkably within one franchise's history, may not be so remarkable in another franchise's history. Standards from franchise to franchise will inherently vary, and thus there should be no impetus to create equal standards among the franchises or to aspire to the standards of the National Baseball Hall of Fame. Consequently, subjectivity within the context of the franchise in question will play an inevitable role when considering an individual's contributions and accomplishments with respect to that franchise. In sum, a franchise's Hall of Fame should be unaffected by the standards and contexts of other franchises as well as the National Baseball Hall of Fame, and should be entirely a product of its own history.

    Election Format: Elections will be conducted one franchise at a time starting in chronological order with the oldest continuously and currently operational franchise. Each election will last approximately seven days.
    - Ballot Size: Voters can select up to 15 players and 5 contributors per election. Ballots that exceed the maximum limits at the close of an election will not be counted. There is no minimum ballot size.
    - Ballot Editing: To account for ongoing discussion, voters may edit their ballots as often as necessary through the end of an election.
    - Election Percentage: Any individual that is listed on at least 75% of either the player or contributor submitted ballots will be elected to that team's Hall of Fame. In instances where an individual receive votes as both a player and a contributor, that individual will be elected if listed on at least 75% of ballots in either category or if the individual's combined vote total is at least 75% of the category with the greatest number of ballots submitted.
    - Subsequent Rounds: After an election has been performed for each franchise, a second round of elections will commence, again proceeding in chronological order. A third round of elections (and perhaps beyond) may also be held depending on interest.

    Eligibility:
    - Players: Players may be considered by any currently operational franchise for which they appeared and are eligible either immediately upon officially retiring or after having not appeared at any level of professional baseball for an entire season for reasons not due to injury.
    - Contributors: Individuals that contributed in other capacities to a franchise may be considered, including managers, coaches, executives, owners, and broadcasters, but not fictional characters such as mascots. Contributors that are still active may only be elected by their current employing franchise, and cannot be considered by prior employing franchises until no longer active (this does not apply to individuals who are employed by a franchise only in nominal and/or non-integral ways, such as in scouting, consulting, or public relations capacities).
    - Multiple Capacities: The totality of contributions and accomplishments with respect to a franchise are to be considered, and thus an individual can only be elected once by a franchise. For purposes of ballot size limits, an individual should be designated either a player or contributor based on what the voter perceives to be the individual's greater role with the franchise. An individual should not be listed as either a player or contributor merely to facilitate ballot space for the other category.
    - Relocations/Renaming: Franchises that have relocated and/or been renamed, may still consider and elect individuals that were with the franchise prior to the relocation/renaming.
    - Multiple Franchises: An individual may be considered and elected by multiple franchises.


    BOSTON RED SOX
    This election will end on Tuesday, February 22, 2011, at 4:00 p.m.

    Franchise History
    - Founded: 1901 (AL for entire existence)
    - Former Locations/Names: Boston Americans (1901-1907)

    Titles
    - World Series Championships: 7 (1903, 1912, 1915, 1916, 1918, 2004, 2007)
    - Pennants: 12 (1903, 1904, 1912, 1915, 1916, 1918, 1946, 1967, 1975, 1986, 2004, 2007)
    - Division Titles: 6 (1975, 1986, 1988, 1990, 1995, 2007)
    - Wild Card Berths: 7 (1998, 1999, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2008, 2009)

    Helpful Links
    The following links are all courtesy of baseball-reference.com, baseball-almanac.com, and wikipedia.com, and may assist voters in determining an individual's impact on this franchise:
    - Franchise Almanac
    - All Batters
    - All Pitchers
    - Batting Leaders
    - Pitching Leaders
    - Most Common Positional Starters
    - Most Common Pitching Staff Alignments
    - Managers
    - Notable Owners and Executives
    - Notable Broadcasters

    Award Recipients
    - MVP Recipients (11): Dustin Pedroia (2008), Mo Vaughn (1995), Roger Clemens (1986), Jim Rice (1978), Fred Lynn (1975), Carl Yastrzemski (1967), Jackie Jensen (1958), Ted Williams (1949), Ted Williams (1946), Jimmie Foxx (1938), Tris Speaker (1912)

    - Cy Young Recipients (6): Pedro Martinez (2000), Pedro Martinez (1999), Roger Clemens (1991), Roger Clemens (1987), Roger Clemens (1986), Jim Lonborg (1967)

    - RoY Recipients (6): Dustin Pedroia (2007), Nomar Garciaparra (1997), Fred Lynn (1975), Carlton Fisk (1972), Don Schwall (1961), Walt Dropo (1950)

    - Batting Triple Crown (3): Carl Yastrzemski (1967), Ted Williams (1947), Ted Williams (1942)

    - Pitching Triple Crown (2): Pedro Martinez (1999), Cy Young (1901)

    Multiple All Star Selections (no adjustment for double selections for 1959-1962)
    Code:
    Rank 	Player			Selections
    1	Ted Williams		19
    2	Carl Yastrzemski	18
    3	Bobby Doerr		9
    t4	Wade Boggs		8
    t4	Frank Malzone		8
    t4	Manny Ramirez*		8
    t4	Jim Rice		8
    t8	Dom DiMaggio		7
    t8	Carlton Fisk		7
    t10	Jimmie Foxx		6
    t10	Fred Lynn		6
    t10	David Ortiz*		6
    t13	Roger Clemens		5
    t13	Joe Cronin		5
    t13	Nomar Garciaparra	5
    t13	Lefty Grove		5
    t13	Pete Runnels		5
    t18	Doc Cramer		4
    t18	Rick Ferrell		4
    t18	Pedro Martinez		4
    t18	Bill Monbouquette	4
    t18	Jonathan Papelbon*	4
    t18	Vern Stephens		4
    t24	Rick Burleson		3
    t24	Dwight Evans		3
    t24	Tex Hughson		3
    t24	Dustin Pedroia*		3
    t24	Jason Varitek*		3
    t24	Mo Vaughn		3
    t30	Luis Aparicio		2
    t30	Josh Beckett*		2
    t30	Scott Cooper		2
    t30	Johnny Damon*		2
    t30	Dave Ferriss		2
    t30	Rich Gedman		2
    t30	Billy Goodman		2
    t30	Mike Greenwell		2
    t30	Jackie Jensen		2
    t30	Bob Johnson		2
    t30	George Kell		2
    t30	Derek Lowe*		2
    t30	Mel Parnell		2
    t30	Rico Petrocelli		2
    t30	Jim Piersall		2
    t30	Dick Radatz		2
    t30	George Scott		2
    t30	Reggie Smith		2
    t30	Bob Stanley		2
    t30	Frank Sullivan		2
    t30	Birdie Tebbetts		2
    t30	Luis Tiant		2
    t30	Kevin Youkilis*		2
    	
    * Player is currently active
    Notable Managers (with at least 300 games managed with this franchise or at least one pennant win)
    Code:
    Manager			Games		Win %	WS Titles	Pennants	Div Titles	Wild Cards
    Ed Barrow		418		.512	1		1
    Lou Boudreau		463		.497
    Bill Carrigan		1003		.494	2		2
    Jimmy Collins		842		.548	1		2
    Joe Cronin		2007		.539			1
    Patsy Donovan		311		.520
    Hugh Duffy		308		.442
    Lee Fohl		463		.394
    Terry Francona*		1134		.577	2		2		1		5
    Billy Herman		310		.413
    Pinky Higgins		1119		.502
    Butch Hobson		439		.472
    Ralph Houk		594		.525
    Darrell Johnson		408		.539			1		1
    Eddie Kasko		640		.539
    Kevin Kennedy		306		.559					1
    Grady Little		324		.580							1
    Joe McCarthy		369		.606
    John McNamara		571		.521			1		2
    Joe Morgan		563		.535					1
    Johnny Pesky		326		.451						
    Jake Stahl		235		.621	1		1
    Dick Williams		477		.545			1
    Jimy Williams		766		.540							2
    Don Zimmer		715		.575
    				
    * Current manager

  2. #2
    This may be the toughest franchise yet as there are easily 20 players I would have liked for these first 15 spots.

    Players
    Wade Boggs
    Jimmy Collins
    Dom DiMaggio
    Bobby Doerr
    Dwight Evans
    Carlton Fisk
    Jimmie Foxx
    Harry Hooper
    Fred Lynn
    Pedro Martinez
    Jim Rice
    Tris Speaker
    Ted Williams
    Carl Yastrzemski
    Cy Young

    Notably absent:
    - Roger Clemens: Unquestionably deserves a place here, but having lived in Boston, I know first hand how much vitriol there currently is for Clemens up there. Wouldn't be surprised at all if he's elected by us, but in a competitive field with tough cuts, the overwhelming popular sentiment currently against Clemens made him a candidate to leave out this time around.

    - Lefty Grove and Joe Wood: Both unquestionably great for the Red Sox as evidenced by their 143 and 149 ERA+, respectively. However, in a tight field, and with both pitching around 1500 innings for the Sox, it would be difficult to vote for one at this point but not the other, so both just missed the cut instead (Pedro Martinez did pitch less innings, but his level of dominance is just too singularly high too ignore).

    - Nomar Garciparra: The last spot came down to Garciparra, Lynn, and Dom DiMaggio. Garciaparra lost out this time around simply because his popularity in Boston still is down from the way he left the team.

    Other Hitters: Johnny Pesky, Rico Petrocelli, Mo Vaughn, Mike Greenwell, John Valentin, Reggie Smith, Duffy Lewis, Jackie Jensen, Larry Gardner, Tony Conigliaro, Billy Goodman, Frank Malzone, Pete Runnels, Vern Stephens
    Other Pitchers: Luis Tiant, Mel Parnell, Tex Hughson, Bob Stanley, Dutch Leonard, Babe Ruth, Dick Radatz, Ellis Kinder, Frank Sullivan, Carl Mays

    Contributors
    Joe Cronin - With the players field super tight, Cronin's managerial and GM tenure justify moving to this list
    Theo Epstein
    Terry Francona - Wasn't planning on voting for either Francona or Epstein as it felt too soon, but the truth is they've done enough and will forever be remembered as being at the helm when the team finally broke through in 2004 (and again in 2007)
    Tom Yawkey - After reading Howard Bryant's Book Shut Out, I have a hard time looking favorably upon Tom Yawkey, but he is the owner best identified with the franchise.
    ????
    Last edited by DoubleX; 02-15-2011 at 02:48 PM.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Braves Country
    Posts
    824
    This is very tough, just like the Yankees.

    Players:
    Ted Williams
    Carl Yastrzemski
    Wade Boggs
    Dwight Evans
    Bobby Doerr
    Jim Rice
    Carlton Fisk
    Tris Speaker
    Roger Clemens
    Pedro Martinez
    Smokey Joe Wood
    Jimmie Foxx
    Cy Young
    Harry Hooper
    Nomar Garciaparra
    Contributers:
    Joe Cronin
    Terry Francona
    Bill Carrigan
    Charles Somers
    Ned Martin
    Chop! Chop! Chop!

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Baton Rouge, LA
    Posts
    2,077
    Players (15)
    Wade Boggs
    Roger Clemens
    Joe Cronin
    Bobby Doerr
    Dwight Evans
    Carlton Fisk
    Nomar Garciaparra
    Pedro Martinez
    Jim Rice
    Babe Ruth
    Tris Speaker
    Luis Tiant
    Ted Williams
    Carl Yastrzemski
    Cy Young

    Contributors (5)
    Bill Carrigan
    Theo Epstein
    Terry Francona
    Charles Somers
    Tom Yawkey
    RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010).

  5. #5
    Players:
    Wade Boggs
    Roger Clemens
    Jimmy Collins
    Dom DiMaggio
    Bobby Doerr
    Dwight Evans
    Carlton Fisk
    Harry Hooper
    Pedro Martinez
    Jim Rice
    Babe Ruth
    Tris Speaker
    Ted Williams
    Carl Yastrzemski
    Cy Young


    Contributors:
    Bill Carrigan
    Joe Cronin
    Dick O'Connell
    Johnny Pesky
    Tom Yawkey

    I won't argue with someone who can't stomach the racial issue, but if you are willing to overlook that i don't see how Yawkey can possibly be omitted. He is more than the owner who is most identified with the club, he is the man who made it what it is. Without Yawkey, it's quite likely they would not be in Boston at all.

    In 1932 the Red Sox lost 111 games and finished last for the seventh time in the previous eight seasons and the ninth time in eleven. Yawkey bought the club the next February, and that season the Red Sox finished seventh, a good performance for them. The next season they finished at .500 and in fourth place, the best they had done in sixteen years, and before the end of the decade they were contenders. Before Yawkey the Red Sox had finished last nine times in barely over a decade and they were the doormat of the American League. Since Yawkey bought the club and turned it around, with a few fallow periods they have been one of the strongest franchises in the game and they have never finished in last place, not a single time. Granted, it's probably fair to say Yawkey accomplished this transformation more by the will and ability to spend money than by the application of brains and skill, but the point is, he is the one who accomplished it.
    Last edited by Beady; 02-19-2011 at 04:33 PM. Reason: replaced Wood with Ruth

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Beady View Post
    I won't argue with someone who can't stomach the racial issue, but if you are willing to overlook that i don't see how Yawkey can possibly be omitted. He is more than the owner who is most identified with the club, he is the man who made it what it is. Without Yawkey, it's quite likely they would not be in Boston at all.
    It's not really overlooking. The unfortunate reality is that Yawkey wasn't alone in baseball and America in his racial views, but in the context of just the Red Sox franchise, his place is notable.

    That being, in addition to the pretty scathing impression of Yawkey that Howard Bryant casts (he doesn't paint Joe Cronin and Eddie Collins in good lights either), Joe Posnanski had these comments on Yawkey's Cooperstown's credentials:

    Tom Yawkey. Longtime owner of the Boston Red Sox who somehow managed in 44 years of ownership to never win a World Series and to be the last team in baseball to field a black player. He was, according to his plaque, the first man to have his team fly by plane. So he had that going for him....

    Yawkey being in the Hall of Fame is an absolute sham – he is, in my mind, the least qualified member of the Hall of Fame (in a tie with Effa Manley). It isn’t just that he accomplished little as an owner… he was a BAD owner. His teams didn’t win. He was an open racist. I don’t care if he was nice to his players and put them on planes.
    Of course this isn't Cooperstown, it's just the Red Sox, but Posnanski does make some decent points. Yawkey was at the helm for 44 years and the team had very little to show for it during that time.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    3,321
    Players
    Wade Boggs
    Bobby Doerr
    Dwight Evans
    Carlton Fisk
    Jimmie Foxx
    Lefty Grove
    Harry Hooper
    Fred Lynn
    Pedro Martinez
    Jim Rice
    Tris Speaker
    Ted Williams
    Joe Wood
    Carl Yastrzemski
    Cy Young

    Contributors
    Bill Carrigan
    Joe Cronin
    Theo Epstein
    Terry Francona
    Charles Somers

  8. #8
    Bryant' got me rethinking Yawkey. I read his description of the Sox in the late '60' as "a last place team for fifteen years." That fit with how I first knew them in the sixties, as a team that had been chronically weak and beleaguered since before I remembered them. It was only when I looked at the record that I realized they had only really gone into the dumps about when I started paying attention. They had actually still been pretty strong for about half those fifteen years and have never been a last place team in more than three-quarters of a century since Yawkey took over the club. Many, many times before Yawkey, never afterwards. They had good teams under Yawkey and bad teams, but never again were they doormats who could be utterly disregarded.

    I agree Yawkey is not a good choice for Cooperstown, but despite what Posnanski says, his Red Sox were a generally strong team. He was probably not an effective executive but he was the next best thing, a man with large, well stuffed and open pockets, which he wielded to considerable effect. He turned the Red Sox around, made a fundamental positive change in their destiny, moved them from Poverty Row to the upper tax brackets, and that deserves recognition on a local scale.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Moot Point
    Posts
    5,267
    Players
    Wade Boggs
    Roger Clemens
    Bobby Doerr
    Dwight Evans
    Carlton Fisk
    Nomar Garciaparra
    Lefty Grove
    Harry Hooper
    Pedro Martinez
    Jim Rice
    Babe Ruth
    Tris Speaker
    Ted Williams
    Carl Yastrzemski
    Cy Young
    *** Submit your personal HOF as your ballot for the Single Ballot BBF Hall of Fame! *** Also: Buck the Fraves!

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    2,292
    Blog Entries
    1
    Ted Williams
    Carl Yastrzemski
    Dom DiMaggio
    Dwight Evans
    Carlton Fisk
    Jim Rice
    Jimmie Foxx
    Cy Young
    Babe Ruth
    Tris Speaker
    Roger Clemens
    Bobby Doerr
    Pedro Martinez
    Lefty Grove
    Harry Hooper


    Joe Cronin
    Johnny Pesky (contributor as a manager/coach)
    Tom Yawkey
    Terry Francona
    Theo Epstein

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  11. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    southeastern PA
    Posts
    15,138
    Blog Entries
    34
    Players
    Wade Boggs
    Roger Clemens
    Bobby Doerr
    Dwight Evans
    Carlton Fisk
    Jimmie Foxx
    Nomar Garciaparra
    Lefty Grove
    Pedro Martinez
    Jim Rice
    Babe Ruth
    Tris Speaker
    Ted Williams
    Carl Yastrzemski
    Cy Young

    Contributors
    Bill Carrigan
    Dan Duquette
    Theo Epstein*
    Terry Francona*
    Lou Gorman

    Not yet eligible among the players
    Tim Wakefield
    Derek Lowe
    Jonathan Papelbon
    Manny Ramirez
    David Ortiz
    Kevin Youkilis
    Jason Varitek

    Players in my queue
    Rico Petrocelli
    Luis Tiant
    Harry Hooper
    John Valentin
    Reggie Smith
    Fred Lynn
    Mel Parnell
    Johnny Pesky
    Jimmy Collins
    Smoky Joe Wood
    Mo Vaughn
    Tex Hughson
    Dom DiMaggio
    Freddy Parent
    Joe Cronin
    Dutch Leonard
    Frank Sullivan
    Larry Gardner
    Dennis Eckersley
    Vern Stephens
    Mike Greenwell
    Ellis Kinder
    Pete Runnels
    Jackie Jensen
    Ray Collins
    Joe Dobson
    Bill Dinneen
    Bob Stanley
    Dick Radatz

    Contributors in my queue
    Jimmy Collins
    Tom Yawkey (?)
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  12. #12
    Players:

    Wade Boggs
    Roger Clemens
    Bobby Doerr
    Dom DiMaggio
    Bill Dinneen
    Carlton Fisk
    Jimmy Foxx
    Lefty Grove
    Fred Lynn
    Jim Rice
    Tris Speaker
    Luis Tiant Jr.
    Ted Williams
    Carl Yastrzemski
    Cy Young

    Contributors:

    Bill Carrigan
    Theo Epstein (if he's eligible)
    Terry Francona (if he's eligible)
    Johnny Pesky
    Charles Somers
    Last edited by jjpm74; 02-16-2011 at 06:19 AM.

  13. #13
    under construction

    Contributors
    Charles Somers
    Tom Yawkey
    Joe Cronin
    Theo Epstein
    Larry Lucchino

    Let me get the names Collins and Lucchino on the board for discussion although I may replace them.
    edit: move Collins to the players ballot, add Cronin

    Re Somers and Collins, Connie Mack did a lot of the footwork to establish the Boston Americans.

    Thinking about all the announcers who reap votes makes we wonder why not Tim Murnane the local baseball writer. Especially 100 and more years ago local sportswriters were important participants in the establishment of a ballclub.

    others: Jimmy Collins, Jake Stahl, Bill Carrigan, Ed Barrow, Joe Cronin, Dick Williams, Terry Francona
    : Connie Mack, Tim Murnane, Fenway, Harry Frazee, Johnny Pesky, Dick O'Connell, John Henry
    Last edited by Paul Wendt; 02-17-2011 at 11:26 AM.

  14. #14
    Players
    Jimmy Collins
    Cy Young
    Tris Speaker
    Harry Hooper
    Babe Ruth
    Bobby Doerr
    Ted Williams
    Dom DiMaggio
    Carl Yastrzemski
    Carlton Fisk
    Dwight Evans
    Jim Rice
    Wade Boggs
    Roger Clemens
    Pedro Martinez

    "soon": Wakefield, Varitek, Manny Ramirez, David Ortiz

    others: Chick Stahl, Buck Freeman, Freddie Parent, Hobe Ferriss,
    : Bill Carrigan, Larry Gardner, Duffy Lewis,
    : Joe Cronin, Jimmie Foxx, Johnny Pesky, Jackie Jensen,
    : Rico Petrocelli, Tony Conigliaro, Reggie Smith, Fred Lynn,
    : Mo Vaughn, John Valentin, Nomar Garciaparra,
    others: Bill Dineen, Lefty Grove, Luis Tiant,
    : Tex Hughson, Mel Parnell, Ellis Kinder, Dick Radatz, Bob Stanley,
    Last edited by Paul Wendt; 02-17-2011 at 11:27 AM. Reason: import Collins from contributors; add Pedro

  15. #15
    Players (15)
    Wade Boggs
    Roger Clemens
    Joe Cronin
    Bobby Doerr
    Dwight Evans
    Carlton Fisk
    Jimmie Foxx
    Nomar Garciaparra
    Lefty Grove
    Pedro Martinez
    Jim Rice
    Tris Speaker
    Ted Williams
    Carl Yastrzemski
    Cy Young

    Contributors (5)
    Bill Carrigan
    Theo Epstein
    Terry Francona
    Charles Somers
    Tom Yawkey

  16. #16
    I have an open spot on my contributors ballot and have noticed Bill Carrigan getting quite a bit of support, so could someone state his case? I don't think it's a bad case, but I'm on the fence right now. What I see is that he caught for the Sox for 10 seasons and was pretty decent for the era, though he looks to be almost exclusively used in a platoon. He was also a player/manager for four years, winning two WS and then retiring, but then came back over a decade later to manage three more seasons. On the whole, it's tough to figure out how good he was as a manager given that the sample size is small with the level of success being on either extreme of the spectrum. More particularly, when the Red Sox won those two WS in 1915 and 1916, the team was loaded with talent. When Carrigan came back in 1927-1929, the team was devoid of talent and finished dead last each season. So it's really tough to gauge how effective of a manger he was. When his talent was great, the level success was great, when the talent was terrible, the level success was terrible. I think Carrigan's case, at least for me, may be helped had he managed a few more years after 1916, as the larger body of work may have given a better indicator as to his abilities.

  17. #17
    Carrigan's playing career didn't figure at all in my vote. I voted for him, frankly, on his reputation as a manager, rather than on substance, and I have to say just as frankly that I think most voting for managers is based largely on reputation and the good fortune to be in the right place when a winner pops up, rather than on any close and accurate analysis of relative ability.

    I know Carrigan as a particularly highly respected manager who retired the first time to go into banking. The information I glean from his second tenure is not that, provided a terrible roster by a weak and undercapitalized organization, he could not get out of last place, but rather that he must have made a huge impression in Boston to be brought back more than a decade after he had stepped down. Eddie Sawyer coming back in Philadelphia is the only rather similar case I can think of offhand, and I thought it was a shame nobody, myself included, gave Sawyer even a mention when we considered the Phillies.

    So that's the explanation of my vote for Carrigan but, unlike the case of Yawkey, I would never have said a thing in his favor if I hadn't been asked. I certainly wouldn't challenge anyone who's not convinced.

    A question of my own for Paul Wendt: did Tim Murnane have any particular connection with the Red Sox? I believe he had been on poor terms with the Boston Nationals' ownership for many years, so it wouldn't be surprising if he were a booster of the new team in town.

  18. #18
    I don't know that Murnane had ties with any of the three would-be major league ballclubs in Boston (NL, AA, AL), beyond the stereotypical sportswriter's interest in all.

    Certainly he was a strong advocate of more baseball, among other organized sports, especially in his city. In 1884 he was player/manager and minority owner of the Union Association club, financed primarily by George Wright or Wright & Ditson sporting goods. Around 1900 he led both the regional baseball New England League and the local polo league (early hockey). In 1901 he was optimistic about the American Association more than the American League. The AA Boston operation led by Arthur Irwin had secured a racing park in Cambridge before the AL even named Boston in mid-January, iirc, and it seemed that the AL would have nowhere to play except by buying that right. Until the very end* Murnane reported or opined that the AA would be a "go". (Vaguely I recall that from the morning newspaper, last day of the NL meetings, February 28. Next day the AA was kaput and the AL was openly signing players. This memory is errorprone.)

    When was Murnane on poor terms with Boston NL ownership, Soden in particular? I haven't read much if any local newspaper coverage from the glory days of the early and late 1890s, not until 1899 when the team was still excellent but underdog to the Baltimore/Brooklyn and Cleveland/St Louis operations. During those seasons when crisis was evident, change was in the air and then on the field, Murnane didn't lack supposedly reliable sources for both teams. It's my impression that he talked to Soden. Of course the AA threat and AL entry may have softened feeling on either side.
    Last edited by Paul Wendt; 02-17-2011 at 11:04 AM.

  19. #19
    Well, I am one of Soden's few admirers, but even I wouldn't claim he was a master of public relations. He got along badly with a lot of Boston reporters, and I think Murnane was one of them but I can't find anything in my notes to support that. I know more about Murnane in the '80's, and not a great deal much then. I may have other writers in mind, for example, Curry Foley, with whom he's a little easy to confuse because they were both players turned reporters.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Williamsport PA
    Posts
    3,145
    My Boston Red Sox Ballot (assuming a player, like Tris Speaker or Cy Young or Lefty Grove, or Jimmie Foxx can be in more than one teams HOF)

    By position on your scorecard:

    Roger Clemens
    Cy Young
    Pedro Martinez
    Lefty Grove
    Joe Wood
    Carlton Fisk
    Jimmie Foxx
    David Ortiz
    Bobby Doerr
    Wade Boggs
    Nomar Garciaparra
    Ted Williams
    Carl Yastrzemski
    Tris Speaker
    Dwight Evans


    ----------------

    Joe Cronin
    Johnny Pesky
    Tom Yawkey
    Curt Gowdy
    Charles Somers
    Last edited by Second Base Coach; 02-19-2011 at 10:10 AM.
    Your Second Base Coach
    If Rfield was a better stat, and actually measured fielding ability, we would not need Rpos.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5hCIvMule0

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Second Base Coach View Post
    My Boston Red Sox Ballot (assuming a player, like Tris Speaker or Cy Young or Lefty Grove, or Jimmie Foxx can be in more than one teams HOF)

    By position on your scorecard:

    Roger Clemens
    Cy Young
    Pedro Martinez
    Lefty Grove
    Joe Wood
    Carlton Fisk
    Jimmie Foxx
    David Ortiz
    Bobby Doerr
    Wade Boggs
    Nomar Garciaparra
    Ted Williams
    Carl Yastrzemski
    Tris Speaker
    Dwight Evans
    Please read the rules because you would know that players can be elected by multiple teams and that currently active players, such as David Ortiz (or Manny Ramirez and Jim Thome that you voted for in the Indians election) are not eligible and will not be counted. As I asked you in the Indians election with Ramirez and Thome, please replace Ortiz if you get a chance.

  22. #22
    By my count, Babe Ruth has been named on 5 of 11 ballots so far. This surprises, even amazes me. I won't bother to recount anything about his Red Sox career but....

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Baton Rouge, LA
    Posts
    2,077
    Quote Originally Posted by BigRon View Post
    By my count, Babe Ruth has been named on 5 of 11 ballots so far. This surprises, even amazes me. I won't bother to recount anything about his Red Sox career but....
    When you consider Ruth's impact on those old Red Sox teams, I don't believe the Red Sox win it all in 1916 and 1918 without Ruth. I would say Ruth's career with the Red Sox was exceptionally valuable enough for me to justify voting for him.
    RIP Ronnie James Dio (July 10, 1942 - May 16, 2010).

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Ace Venom View Post
    When you consider Ruth's impact on those old Red Sox teams, I don't believe the Red Sox win it all in 1916 and 1918 without Ruth. I would say Ruth's career with the Red Sox was exceptionally valuable enough for me to justify voting for him.
    That's my point. I'm amazed that Ruth has ONLY 5 of 11 votes.

  25. #25
    Point taken, and I have edited my list to replace Joe Wood with Ruth.

    It's an awfully tough field, though. On any other team, I don't think I would have needed to be reminded of him.

    Examining in detail how many great and near great players have been Red Sox for such long periods really reinforces a feeling I've had for quite a while. Something seems to compel Boston fans to see their team's history as a long saga of failure and degradation, even if they have to do that in spite of the evidence. And so powerful has been their drive to interpret the Red Sox story in this way that to a considerable measure they've imposed their view on the rest of us.

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