This is our fifty-ninth election in this project. The entire rules follow.
This election will end at 8:10 AM EDT on March 26, 2011.
The prior election, and the ballots of the 1992 voters, are in this thread
Researcher/advocate/mod
This is our fifty-ninth election in this project. The entire rules follow.
This election will end at 8:10 AM EDT on March 26, 2011.
The prior election, and the ballots of the 1992 voters, are in this thread
Last edited by jalbright; 03-26-2011 at 05:17 AM.
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
Rules
1) All BBF users in good standing may participate. However, if there is more than one vote being cast from any one computer or IP, it must be cleared in advance. Should there be unannounced multiple votes from the same IP, I will investigate the circumstances, and all user names involved may be barred from this project as a result, and all but one of the multiple usernames permanently banned from the site. I only anticipate exceptions for family members living in the same home, but I will entertain requests on other bases. Please note that I and the other mods who participate in the project have the capability of determining the IP from which posts come, and I for one intend to monitor same. I have had to deal with a single user manipulating a project with multiple votes, and I don't intend to repeat the experience.
2) Elections will require a 10 voter quorum. If we do not get ten voters and there are candidate(s) who would be elected no matter what the voters needed to make a quorum did, those candidate(s) will be inducted. Otherwise, no one will be inducted. Further, if we fail to elect a full complement of candidates for the ballot in question in two of any four consecutive elections, the portion(s) of the project failing to meet the election requirement will end. If, for instance, we're doing fine on the player end but not the contributor end, I would drop the contributor end under this rule.
3) We will start in 1936, just as Cooperstown did. For the first election (1936), voters will rank their top 20, taking 10. After that we will go to having voters rank their top 12 players. Points awarded 12-11-10, etc. We will take the top five through 1940, then top three players per year elected until 2010, then two per year. If a voter does not number his selections, I will try to get him/her to do so. If they do not do so before the end of the election period, I may in my sole discretion invalidate the ballot. I have included this provision in order to ease the process of recording the votes. On another point, I know, the 1936 backlog is huge--but that was a historical issue they couldn't avoid, so neither will we.
4) We will also have a contributor ballot, which will elect one a year through 1985, then one every three (3) years. Contributors will be ranked 1 through 5, with points awarded 5-4-3-2-1. Voters may choose to participate in either one of the ballots or both.
5) It is permissible to vote for a candidate on both the contributor and player lists.
6) You are allowed to change your ballot at any time the voting is open. However, if you change your ballot, you've got to notify me (jalbright) by PM or by a new post in the voting thread, or the changes likely will not be registered.
7) Players are eligible at the later of age 45 or the first year thereafter in which the player does not play. If the birthdate is not known, add five years to the first time the player misses a season and has less than 10 games the next season. There is an exception for early death, in which case the year of death plus two will be used if that yields an earlier date.
8) Contributors become eligible at age 65 or in the year of death plus two. whichever comes first.
9) Each election will run for approximately two weeks unless expressly altered by the project manager, contributors and players done simultaneously.
10) No one is excluded from being a candidate, regardless of the league they played in, except those elected in either the contributor or player ballots. At that point, they are removed from further consideration. If there are players who returned to the Negro Leagues or Japan after going to the majors, the departure from the majors will be their career end date for purposes of this project.
11) The standard for including a player on one's ballot is that the player must in the voter's opinion be among the very best eligible players (preferably the number voted on, but if a voter wishes to support someone they feel is 15th in a 12 person ballot instead of one of the top 12, it's too close for anyone to reasonably object. On the other hand, supporting the 25th best eligible candidate on a 12 person ballot is probably beyond the pale). I reserve the power to invalidate ballots which I do not feel are a reasonably knowledgeable, good faith effort to rank the players. One issue I am quite concerned about is that I do not want to see what clearly appear to be attempts to manipulate the ballot so as to elect a candidate. In isolation, I probably could live with this, but if it became a widely used tactic, the project would devolve into something I have no desire to be associated with. Moreover, I think that this position asks everyone else to cast legitimate votes so that you can manipulate the system to favor your pet candidates. I cannot accept that, as it strikes me as unfair to other voters. For example, you can't expect to favor even a legitimate HOF candidate like Bill Dahlen over Babe Ruth to get Dahlen elected without being asked to provide a reasonable justification for ranking Dahlen over Ruth. If you can provide a reasonable justification in that scenario, the ballot will stand. If not, you will be asked to make a change. I realize voters will sometimes have idiosyncratic choices, and I try to allow for that. However, a clear flouting of a consensus is apt to be met with a request that the ballot be justified pursuant to this rule. Certainly, a reasonable justification does not indicate in essence simply that you want Dahlen elected. Furthermore, if I invalidate multiple ballots by the same individual as failing to meet this rule, that individual will forever lose the right to have his/her ballots counted. Voters are encouraged to consider character, sportsmanship, and compliance with the rules and spirit of baseball in their rankings of players.
12) I will post lists of eligible players and contributors before each election. If you have a question about the eligibility of a candidate, please ask. I will provide a list of future eligibility dates as well.
13) My eligibility lists come from all persons in the BBF HOF, BBTF Hall of Merit, and Cooperstown, plus all persons getting a vote in a BBF HOF election in the past year and a half or in a BBWAA election. This is a relatively comprehensive list, and thus I must request that if you want another candidate included, you provide some justification for why said candidate is worthy of getting a vote in this project. The main area I think this might come into play is if a voter supports a person who was eligible for the final selections from the recent pre WWII or Negro League committees but not on my master list. That fact alone would serve as ample justification for putting said candidate on the list. We may learn more about Cuban ball or what have you and thus include others after a case is made for them, however. The contributor list is undoubtedly not as comprehensive, and this fact will be taken into consideration. For players, any request for a multiple time all-star in the all-star era will be approved. Players of that quality will generally be approved without much ado. However, when a player lacks that kind of qualification, I will likely ask for you to get a second from among our voters via a post in the current election thread. When in doubt, I will also require a second for suggested contributors. If a second is forthcoming, the player will be added. If not, the request will be rejected. I want to limit requests and seconds to players or contributors you actually might vote for.
14) Other than the sportsmanship and character issues, players are to be evaluated solely upon their play. I would prefer that if a player is qualified by his play standing alone that he be elected on that basis. However, a candidate may only be elected either as a contributor or a player, but not both. Contributors are the area where the entire body of work during his career in the sport, including his play, managing, scouting, executive, writing, broadcasting or other work in the sport is relevant. Contributors are to be ranked based on who the voter thinks is most worthy of induction into the Contributor group in this project.
15) Any ballot with two (2) or more spots unfilled with eligible candidates is invalid. In the event of the listing of ineligible names, I will try to notify the voter so that he/she can correct the ballot before the end of the voting period. If the change is made timely, it will count. If not, and there are two or more invalid names, the ballot will not be considered valid. If there is only one, the ineligible name will be stricken and all names after it on the affected ballot will be moved up one spot.
16) Any players listed beyond the 12th place for any ballot but the first (in which case it is 20th place) will be ignored. If more than one person is listed as tied for the last available place and the ballot is oversize, all names will be dropped, which may lead to the invalidation of the ballot.
17) Ties are not permitted in ballot listings. I reserve the right to invalidate ballots for use of ties in the rankings, be it within a single ballot or over the course of several ballots. If the voter does not correct such a listing voluntarily, except in the case of an oversize ballot tie for the last eligible place, if do not invalidate the ballot, I will choose the placement of the two "tied" candidates, generally preferring the candidate preferred by the other voters.
18) For any ties between candidates straddling the in/out line of selections, the first thing considered is the ranking of the candidates by the ballots cast. If there are more than two candidates tied, use a 2-1-0 or whatever is appropriate for the number of players tied system. If a voter does not list a candidate, he receives zero points in the tiebreaker procedure. Once one person separates from the tied group, restart with the remaining candidates until there are only as many candidates as the rules call for being elected. If they remain tied after this process, the candidate with the most votes received wins. If it is still tied after that, those with the most #1 votes as the next step, then the most #2 votes and so on to see if that breaks the tie. If not, we will induct all candidates who remain tied at that point.
19) One thing we're going to have to be aware of is the timeline in the case of at least a few contributors. Two which jump out at me are Buck O'Neill, 1976, and Branch Rickey, 1946. I intend to eventually vote for both men, but in 1946, Jackie Robinson was still in Montreal. Really, Branch should wait until at least 1947 after Jackie's success in the majors to get credit for that move. If you think Rickey belongs in the top 5 in 1946 without his role in breaking the color line, that's fine--but he shouldn't get credit for that important success until it actually happened. Buck O'Neill did some important things up until 1976, but after that he was in Ken Burns' Baseball and he was instrumental in the establishment of the Negro Leagues Hall of Fame (both occurred in or around 1994). If you think he belongs based on accomplishments before those two things, that's perfectly acceptable, but please don't credit him with them before they actually happened.
20) I will maintain a thread of the project's history and rules which will provide a listing of all elected candidates.
21) Feel free to ask questions by either sending jalbright a PM, or by posting a question in voting thread
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
The players who become eligible in 1994 are:
The contributors who become eligible in 1994 are:Code:Baker , Dusty Baylor , Don Blue , Vida Buckner , Bill Dempsey , Rick Fisk , Carlton Garner , Phil Grich , Bobby Hargrove , Mike Hrabosky , Al Reuschel , Rick Ryan , Nolan Schmidt , Mike Scott , George Simmons , Ted Thornton , Andre
Code:Hemond , Roland Tanner , Chuck Williams , Dick
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
The 1993 player candidates who were not elected had these results in the that election:
The 1993 contributor candidates who were not elected had these results in the that election:Code:Players…………….. votes pts Torre, Joe 9 70 Joss , Addie 6 60 Roush , Edd 7 58 Kelley , Joe 9 54 Wynn, Jimmy 8 53 Brown, Willard 8 49 Rixey , Eppa 5 38 Grimes , Burleigh 4 37 Evans, Darrell 5 28 Keller , Charlie 4 27 Sheckard , Jimmy 5 27 Brock, Lou 4 26 Berger , Wally 3 23 McVey , Cal 3 23 Beckley , Jake 3 22 Cepeda, Perucho 5 16 Smith, Reggie 2 15 Aparicio, Luis 3 14 Richardson , Hardy 2 13 Freehan, Bill 4 11 Childs , Cupid 2 9 Howard, Frank 1 9 Lundy , Dick 1 9 Pike , Lip 2 9 Cepeda, Orlando 1 8 Gomez, Lefty 1 8 Bando, Sal 2 7 Rizzuto , Phil 1 6 Sewell , Joe 1 6 Fingers, Rollie 1 5 Matlock, Leroy 1 5 Perez, Tony 1 5 Rice , Sam 1 5 Shocker, Urban 3 5 Bancroft , Dave 1 4 Newcombe, Don 1 4 Yamamoto, Koji 1 4 Dandridge, Ray 1 3 Mullane , Tony 1 3 Trouppe, Quincy 2 3 Leach , Tommy 1 2 Maranville , R 1 2
I strongly suggest that you pay attention to this list, as the leaders of the holdovers are likely to join any strong newcomer candidates as the leaders for winning induction.Code:contributors………… votes pts Rizzuto, Phil 5 20 Caylor , O. P. 5 15 Harris, Vic 5 13 Scully, Vin 5 13 Ferguson, Bob 4 11 Chandler, Happy 2 8 Elias, Al Munro 4 8 Evans, Billy 2 8 Krichell, Paul 2 6 Abe, Iso..... 2 5 Jobe, Frank 1 5 Caray, Harry 1 4 Smith, Red 1 4 Martin, Billy 1 3 McCarthy, Tommy 1 2 Murnane, Tim 1 2 Murtaugh, Danny 1 2 Grimm, Charlie 1 1
Last edited by jalbright; 03-19-2011 at 09:29 AM.
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
Members of the Best of Baseball Hall. Last election's inductees are in red.
Players
ContributorsCode:Hank Aaron Pete Alexander Dick Allen Cap Anson Luke Appling Richie Ashburn Earl Averill Frank Baker Ernie Banks Ross Barnes John Beckwith Cool Papa Bell Johnny Bench Charlie Bennett Yogi Berra Akira Bessho Lou Boudreau Ken Boyer Roger Bresnahan Dan Brouthers Mordecai Brown Ray Brown Jim Bunning Jesse Burkett Roy Campanella Rod Carew Max Carey Steve Carlton Bob Caruthers Oscar Charleston Fred Clarke John Clarkson Roberto Clemente Ty Cobb Mickey Cochrane Eddie Collins Jimmy Collins Roger Connor Stan Coveleski Sam Crawford Joe Cronin Bill Dahlen George Davis Dizzy Dean Ed Delahanty Bill Dickey Martin Dihigo Joe DiMaggio Larry Doby Bobby Doerr Don Drysdale Buck Ewing Red Faber Bob Feller Wes Ferrell Elmer Flick Whitey Ford Willie Foster Nellie Fox Jimmie Foxx Frankie Frisch Pud Galvin Lou Gehrig Charlie Gehringer Bob Gibson Josh Gibson Jack Glasscock Joe Gordon George Gore Goose Goslin Frank Grant Hank Greenberg Heinie Groh Lefty Grove Stan Hack Billy Hamilton Isao Harimoto Gabby Hartnett Harry Heilmann Billy Herman Pete Hill Paul Hines Rogers Hornsby Carl Hubbell Kazuhisa Inao Monte Irvin Joe Jackson Reggie Jackson Ferguson Jenkins Hughie Jennings Grant "Home Run"Johnson Walter Johnson Al Kaline Masaichi Kaneda Tim Keefe Willie Keeler King Kelly Harmon Killebrew Ralph Kiner Sandy Koufax Nap LaJoie Bob Lemon Buck Leonard Pop Lloyd Ted Lyons Biz Mackey Sherry Magee Mickey Mantle Juan Marichal Eddie Mathews Christy Mathewson Willie Mays Willie McCovey Joe McGinnity Bid McPhee Joe Medwick Jose Mendez Minnie Minoso Johnny Mize Dobie Moore Joe Morgan Stan Musial Shigeo Nagashima Hal Newhouser Kid Nichols Phil Niekro Katsuya Nomura Sadaharu Oh Alejandro Oms Jim O'Rourke Mel Ott Satchel Paige Jim Palmer Gaylord Perry Eddie Plank Charlie Radbourn Pee Wee Reese Robin Roberts Brooks Robinson Frank Robinson Jackie Robinson Bullet Joe Rogan Pete Rose Red Ruffing Amos Rusie Babe Ruth Ron Santo Louis Santop Tom Seaver Al Simmons George Sisler Enos Slaughter Hilton Smith Duke Snider Warren Spahn Tris Speaker Victor Starffin Willie Stargell Joe Start Turkey Stearnes Harry Stovey Mule Suttles Don Sutton Ezra Sutton Bill Terry Sam Thompson Luis Tiant Cristobal Torriente Pie Traynor Dazzy Vance Arky Vaughan Rube Waddell Honus Wagner Bobby Wallace Ed Walsh Paul Waner John M. Ward Willie Wells Zack Wheat Deacon White Hoyt Wilhelm Billy Williams Smoky Joe Williams Ted Williams Jud Wilson George Wright Early Wynn Carl Yastrzemski Cy Young
Code:Doc Adams Mel Allen Walter Alston Red Barber Ed Barrow Buzzue Bavasi Ed Bolden Alexander Cartwright Henry Chadwick Frank Chance Charlie Commiskey Charles Conlon Tom Connolly Jim Creighton Jack Dunn Leo Durocher Rube Foster Ford Frick Gus Greenlee Clark Griffith Ned Hanlon William Hulbert Miller Huggins Ban Johnson Tetsuharu Kawakami Bill Klem Kenesaw Landis Tommy Lasorda Al Lopez Connie Mack Larry MacPhail Joe McCarthy John McGraw Bill McKechnie Marvin Miller Walter O'Malley Dickey Pearce Cum Posey A. J. Reach Francis Richter Branch Rickey Jacob Ruppert Frank Selee Ben Shibe Matsutaro Shoriki Billy Southworth Al Spalding Alfred Spink J. G. T. Spink Casey Stengel C. I. Taylor Kazuto Tsuruoka Bill Veeck George Weiss Sol White J. L. Wilkinson Harry Wright
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Registered User
Phil Rizzuto should be listed atop the 1993 standings.
Registered User
Frankly, the suspension of the season makes me want to give up baseball.
1 Mike Schmidt
2 Carlton Fisk
3 Nolan Ryan
4 Bobby Grich
5 Ted Simmons
6 Hardy Richardson
7 Cal McVey
8 Eppa Rixey
9 Joe Kelley
10 Jimmy Sheckard
11 Lip Pike
12 Joe Torre
Contributors
1 Vin Scully
2 Bob Ferguson
3 Tim Murnane
4 O.P. Caylor
5 Vic Harris
Last edited by Paul Wendt; 03-19-2011 at 09:04 AM.
Registered User
Players:
1. Mike Schmidt
2. Carlton Fisk
3. Bobby Grich
4. Jimmy Wynn
5. Nolan Ryan
6. Reggie Smith
7. Jimmy Sheckard
8. Joe Torre
9. Sal Bando
10. Cal McVey
11. Ted Simmons
12. Rick Reuschel
Contributors:
1. Phil Rizzuto
2. Buck O'Neill
3. Bob Ferguson
4. O.P. Caylor
5. Al Munro Elias
Cepeda, Maranville and Shocker are back in my queue due to a strong new group of eligible players of which 6 enter my ballot.
On the contributor's side, Buck O'Neill joins my ballot at slot 2 (Phil Rizzuto deserves his election at this point, so he stays at #1) with Iso Abe, Harry Caray, Happy Chandler, Jocko Conlan, Candy Cummings, Bud Fowler, Vic Harris, Gil Hodges, Ring Lardner, Billy Martin, Shigeru Mizuhara, Lefty O'Doul, Red Schoendienst, Vin Scully, Dick Williams are all being strongly considered at this point.
In my consideration set on the players side are Luis Aparicio, Dave Bancroft, Jake Beckley, Chief Bender, Wally Berger, Max Bishop, Bobby Bonds, Bob Boone, Harry Brecheen, Willard Brown, Pete Browning, Lou Brock, Perucho Cepeda, Orlando Cepeda, Cupid Childs, Dave Concepcion, Leon Day, Bill Dinneen, Hugh Duffy, Bill Freehan, Steve Garvey, Burleigh Grimes, Dummy Hoy, Catfish Hunter, Charley Jones, Fielder Jones, Joe Kelley, Tommy Leach, Rabbit Maranville, Thurman Munson, Graig Nettles, Don Newcombe, Tony Perez, Lip Pike, Spotswood Poles, Jack Quinn, Rick Reuschel, Sam Rice, Hardy Richardson, Eppa Rixey, Edd Roush, Wally Schang, Joe Sewell, Urban Shocker, Rusty Staub, Quincy Trouppe, George Van Haltren. Some may make my ballot, some may not depending on who we are looking at in terms of newcomers.
Last edited by jjpm74; 03-19-2011 at 11:37 AM.
Researcher/advocate/mod
The complete list of eligible players:
The complete list of eligible contributors:Code:Adams , Babe Adams , Bobby Adams , Sparky Allen , Johnny Alou , Jesus Alou , Matty Alou, Felipe Altrock , Nick Aparicio, Luis Archer , Jimmy Arlett , Buzz Austin , Jimmy Avila, Bobby Bailey , Bob Baker , Dusty Bancroft , Dave Bando , Sal Barry , Jack Bartell , Dick Battin , Joe Bauer , Hank Baylor , Don Beaumont , Ginger Beckert, Glenn Beckley , Jake Belanger , Mark Bender , Chief Benton , Larry Berg , Moe Bergen , Marty Berger , Wally Berry , Charlie Bibby , Jim Bigbee , Carson Billingham , Jack Bishop , Max Blackwell , Ewell Blades , Ray Blair , Paul Blass , Steve Blue , Lu Blue , Vida Bluege , Ossie Bodie , Ping Boley , Joe Bond , Tommy Bonds , Bobby Boone, Bob Bottomley , Jim Bowa , Larry Boyer , Clete Bradley , Bill Brecheen , Harry Breitenstein , Ted Brewer , Jim Bridges , Tommy Brock, Lou Brown , Willard Browning , Pete Bruton, Bill Buckner , Bill Burdette , Lew Burgess , Smoky Burns , George J. Bush , Joe Bush , Donie Bush , Guy Cadore , Leon Camilli , Dolph Camnitz , Howie Campaneris , Bert Campbell , Bill Cardenal , Jose Cardenas , Leo Carrasquel. Chico Carrigan , Bill Carroll, Clay Case , George Cash , Dave Cash, Norm Cavaretta , Phil Cepeda , Orlando Cepeda , Perucho Cey , Ron Chandler , Spud Chapman , Ben Chapman , Ray Chapman , Sam Chase , Hal Chesbro , Jack Childs , Cupid Cicotte , Eddie Cissell , Bill Clark , Watty Clarkson , Bus Clift, Harlond Coakley , Andy Colavito, Rocky Collins , Shano Combs , Earle Concepcion , Dave Conroy , Wid Coombs , Jack Cooper , Andy Cooper , Mort Cooper , Walker Cooper , Wilbur Courtney , Clint Cox , Billy Crandall , Doc Crandall, Del Cravath , Gavvy Criger , Lou Critz , Hughie Cross , Lave Crowder , Al Cruise , Walt Cruz , Jose Cuccinello , Tony Cummings , Candy Cuyler , Kiki Dandridge , Ray Danning , Harry Dark , Alvin Daubert , Jake Davis , Curt Davis , Harry Davis , Spud Day , Leon Dempsey , Rick Derringer , Paul DiMaggio , Dom Dinneen , Bill Doak , Bill Donlin , Mike Donovan , Bill Dooin , Red Doyle , Jack Doyle , Larry Dropo , Walt Duffy , Hugh Dugan , Joe Dunlap , Fred Dykes , Jimmy Earnshaw , George Easter, Luke Edwards , Hank Ehmke , Howard Elberfeld , Kid Elliott , Bob Elliott , Jumbo Ellis , Dock Enatsu , Yutaka Ennis, Del Ens , Jewel Erskine , Carl Evans , Darrell Evers , Johnny Face, Roy Fairly , Ron Falkenberg , Cy Ferrell , Rick Fingers , Rollie Fisk , Carlton Fitzsimmons , Freddie Fletcher , Art Flood , Curt Fonseca , Lew Foster , Eddie Foster , George Fraser , Chick Freehan, Bill Fregosi , Jim Furillo , Carl Galan , Augie Garner , Phil Garver, Ned Garvey , Steve Gelbert , Charlie Gleason , Kid Gomez , Lefty Gonzalez , Mike Gowdy , Hank Grant , Eddie Grantham , George Grich , Bobby Grimes , Burleigh Grimm , Charlie Grissom , Marv Groat, Dick Gromek , Steve Grove , Orval Gustine , Frank Haas , Mule Haddix, Harvey Hafey , Chick Hahn , Noodles Haines , Jesse Hallahan , Bill Harder , Mel Hargrave , Bubbles Hargrove , Mike Harrah , Toby Harrelson , Bud Harris , Bucky Harris , Vic Hatton , Grady Hearn , Jim Hebner , Richie Hegan , Jim Helms, Tommy Hemus , Solly Henrich , Tommy Herman , Babe Herzog , Buck Hickman , Jim Higgins , Mike Hiller , John Hinchman , Bill Hodges, Gil Holmes , Tommy Holtzman , Ken Hooper , Harry Horton , Willie Houtteman , Art Howard , Frank Howard, Elston Hoy , Dummy Hoyt , Waite Hrabosky , Al Huggins , Miller Hunter , Catfish Hutchinson , Fred Irwin , Charlie Jackman , Will Jackson , Sonny Jensen , Jackie John , Tommy Johnson , Bob Johnson , Davey Johnson , Judy Jones , Charley Jones , Fielder Jones , Sam P. Jordan , Tim Jorgenson , Mike Joss , Addie Judge , Joe Jurges , Billy Kaat, Jim Kamm , Willie Kawakami , Tetsuharu Kell , George Keller , Charlie Kelley , Joe Keltner , Ken Kerr , Dickie Kessinger , Don Killefer , Bill Kilroy , Matt Kinder , Ellis Kingman , Dave Klein , Chuck Kling , Johnny Kluszewski, Ted Knabe , Otto Koosman , Jerry Koyama, Masaaki Kremer , Ray Kress , Red Kuenn, Harvey Kuhel , Joe Kuzava , Bob Lange , Bill Lanier , Hal Larkin , Henry Larsen, Don Latham , Arlie Lavagetto , Cookie Law, Vern Lazzeri , Tony Leach , Freddy Leach , Tommy Lee , Bill Lee , Bill (Spaceman) Leever , Sam Leonard , Emil (Dutch) Lewis , Duffy Lewis, Buddy Lindstrom , Freddie Lobert , Hans Lockman , Whitey Lolich, Mickey Lollar, Sherm Lombardi , Ernie Lonborg , Jim Long , Herman Lopat , Ed Lopes , Davey Lopez , Al Lowe , Bobby Lowenstein , John Lucas , Red Lundy , Dick Luque , Dolf Lyle , Sparky Lyons , Denny Maglie , Sal Maloney, Jim Mancuso , Gus Manush , Heinie Maranville , Rabbit Marberry , Firpo Marion , Marty Maris, Roger Marquard , Rube Marshall , Mike G. Martin , Morrie Martin , Pepper Mathews , Bobby May , Lee Mays , Carl Mazeroski , Bill McAleer , Jimmy McCarthy , Tommy McCarver , Tim McCormick , Frank McCormick , Jim McDaniel , Lindy McDougald, Gil McGowan , Bill McGraw , Tug McInnis , Stuffy McLain , Denny McLean , Larry McMahon, Don McManus , Marty McMillan, Roy McNally , Dave McVey , Cal Meadows , Lee Messersmith , Andy Meusel , Bob Miksis , Eddie Milan , Clyde Millan , Felix Miller , Bing Miller , Dots Miller , Hack Monday , Rick Money , Don Monroe , Bill Moon, Wally Moore , Jo-Jo Moore , Terry Moran , Pat Mostil , Johnny Mota, Manny Mulcahy , Hugh Mullane , Tony Mungo , Van Munson , Thurman Murcer , Bobby Murphy , Danny Murray , Red Myer , Buddy Nehf , Art Nettles , Graig Newcombe , Don Newsom , Bobo Nicholson , Bill Niekro , Joe Northey , Ron O'Doul , Lefty Oeschger , Joe O'Farrell , Bob O'Leary , Charlie Oliva, Tony Oliver , Al O'Neill , Buck O'Neill , Steve O'Neill , Tip Orr , Dave Pabor , Charlie Pafko , Andy Pascual, Camilo Paskert , Dode Pearson , Monte Peckinpaugh , Roger Peitz , Heinie Pennock , Herb Perdue , Hub Perez , Tony Perkins , Cy Perranoski , Ron Perry , Jim Pesky , Johnny Petrocelli, Rico Phillippe , Deacon Pierce , Billy Pike , Lip Piniella, Lou Pinson, Vada Pipp , Wally Podres, Johnny Poles , Spotswood Porterfield , Bob Powell , Boog Power , Vic Pruett , Hub Quinn , Jack Raschi , Vic Raymond , Bugs Redding , Dick Reiser , Pete Remsen , Jack Reuschel , Rick Reynolds , Allie Rice , Del Rice , Sam Richardson , Bobby Richardson , Hardy Ring , Jimmy Ritchey , Claude Rivers , Mickey Rixey , Eppa Rizzuto , Phil Robertson , Dave Roe , Preacher Rolfe , Red Rommel , Eddie Root , Charlie Rosen, Al Roush , Edd Rucker , Nap Rudolph , Dick Ruel , Muddy Russell , Bill Ryan , Jimmy Ryan , Nolan Sain , Johnny Sanguillen , Manny Sauer , Hank Schacht , Al Schaefer , Germany Schalk , Ray Schang , Wally Schmidt , Mike Schoendienst , Red Schreckengost , Ossie Schulte , Frank Scott , Everett Scott , George Scott , Jack Selkirk , George Severeid , Hank Sewell , Joe Sewell , Luke Sewell , Rip Seymour , Cy Shantz, Bobby Sheckard , Jimmy Sherdel , Bill Shocker , Urban Short , Chris Siebert , Sonny Sievers , Roy Simmons , Ted Simmons, Curt Singleton , Ken Sisti , Sibby Smith , Earl Smith , Reggie Smith , Sherry Sparks , Tully Stahl , Jake Stanky , Eddie Stanley , Mickey Staub , Rusty Steinfeldt , Harry Stephens , Vern Stephenson , Riggs Stottlemyre , Mel Street , Gabby Suhr , Gus Sukeforth , Clyde Sweeney , Bill Tannehill , Jesse Taylor , Ben Tebbetts , Birdie Tekulve, Kent Tenace , Gene Tenney , Fred Thevenow , Tommy Thomas , Ira Thomson , Bobby Thornton , Andre Tiernan , Mike Tinker , Joe Tobin , Jim Toney , Fred Torgeson, Earl Torre, Joe Torrez , Mike Travis, Cecil Trouppe , Quincy Trout , Dizzy Trucks , Virgil Turner , Terry Uhle , George Valo , Elmer Van Haltren , George Vander Meer , Johnny Veach , Bobby Vernon , Mickey Walberg , Rube Walker , Harry Walters , Bucky Wambsganss , Bill Waner , Lloyd Warfield , Frank Warneke , Lon Watson , Bob Welch , Mickey Werber , Billy Wertz, Vic West , Sam Westrum , Wes White , Sol White , Will Whitehill , Earl Williams , Cy Williams , Ken Williamson , Ned Willis , Vic Wills, Maury Wilson , Hack Wilson , Jim Wilson , Jimmie Witt , Whitey Wood , Joe Wood , Wilbur Wright , Glenn Wyatt , Whit Wynn , Jimmy Yamamoto , Koji Yeager , Steve Yerkes , Steve York , Rudy Young , Pep Youngs , Ross Zachary , Tom Zimmer , Chief
Code:Abe , Iso Ashford, Emmet Autry, Gene Bancroft , Frank Barlick, Al Berger , Sy Brickhouse , Jack Buck , Jack Bulkely , Morgan Busch , Augie Cambria , Joe Campbell , Jim Canel, Buck Caray, Harry Carrigan, Bill Caylor , O. P. Chandler, Happy Chylak , Nestor Conlan , Jocko Cooper , Andy Cummings , Candy Dark , Alvin Davids , Bob Dinneen , Bill Doubleday , Abner Dreyfuss , Barney Dyer , Eddie Dykes , Jimmy Elias , Al Munro Evans, Billy Feller, Sherm Fergsuon, Bob Fetzer, John Foster , John B. Fowler, Bud Fullerton , Hugh Giles , Warren Gleason , Kid Gonzalez , Mike Gowdy , Curt Grimm, Charlie Haak , Howie Haney , Fred Harridge, Willie Harris , Bucky Harris, Vic Harwell, Ernie Hemond , Roland Heydler, John Hillerich , John Hodges, Gil Hodges, Russ Houk , Ralph Howsam, Bob Hubbard , Cal Hutchinson , Fred Jobe , Frank Krichell, Paul Kuenn , Harvey Kuhn , Bowie Lanigan, Ernest Lardner , Ring Leavitt, Jr. , Charles W. Luque , Dolf MacPhail, Lee Manley , Effa Martin , Billy Mauch , Gene McCarthy , Tommy McGowan, Bill Mills , A. G. Mizuhara, Shigeru Moran , Pat Murnane, Tim Murtaugh, Danny Mutrie , Jim Navin , Frank Nelson , Lindsey Norworth, Jack O'Day, Hank O'Doul, Lefty O'Neill, Buck O'Neill, Steve Osborn , Frank Pasquel, Jorge Patkin, Max Pesky , Johnny Pompez , Alex Pulliam, Harry Ramirez, Felo Reese , Jimmie Rice, Grantland Richards, Paul Ritter , Lawrence Rizzuto , Phil Robinson , Wilbert Schoendienst, Red Scully, Vin Sewell , Luke Sheppard, Bob Smith, Red Stallings , George Street, Gabby Tanner , Chuck Thayer , Ernest Tyson, Ty van der Ahe, Chris Warfield , Frank Weyer , Lee Williams , Dick Wilson , Horace Wrigley, Phil Yawkey, Tom
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
Yep, trimmed one too many. That will be fixed shortly.Originally Posted by Paul Wendt
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
My ballot
Players
1. Mike Schmidt
2. Nolan Ryan
3. Carlton Fisk
4. Bobby Grich
5. Joe Torre
6. Jimmy Wynn
7. Joe Kelley
8. Willard Brown
9. Charlie Keller
10. Perucho Cepeda
11. Cupid Childs
12. Ted Simmons
Contributors
1. Buck O'Neill
2. Phil Rizzuto
3. Vic Harris
4. Iso Abe
5. Dick Williams
Due to the strong incoming class, Sal Bando and Qunicy Trouppe go to the top of my queue. Also, Al Munro Elias and Vin Scully go off my ballot to the top of that queue, ahead of Tim Murnane, who previously was bumped off my ballot.
Last edited by jalbright; 03-19-2011 at 03:09 PM.
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
A reminder: Buck O'Neill should now be credited with his appearance in Ken Burns' Baseball as well as his leadership in getting the Negro Leagues Museum opened. As such, he vaults into my #1 spot.
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Registered User
01. Mike Schmidt
02. Nolan Ryan
03. Bobby Grich
04. Carlton Fisk
05. Eppa Rixey
06. Wally Berger
07. Jake Beckley
08. Jimmy Wynn
09. Burleigh Grimes
10. Willard Brown
11. Ted Simmons
12. Addie Joss
01. Buck O'Neill
02. Frank Jobe
03. Vin Scully
04. Phil Rizzuto
05. Vic Harris
2004 & 2007
Players:
1. Mike Schmidt
2. Carlton Fisk
3. Nolan Ryan
4. Bobby Grich
5. Ted Simmons
6. Addie Joss
7. Wally Berger
8. Willard Brown
9. Joe Torre
10. Edd Roush
11. Perucho Cepeda
12. Jimmy Wynn
Contributors:
1. Buck O'Neill
2. Phil Rizzuto
3. Vic Harris
4. Iso Abe
5. Vin Scully
pilferer of giants
Players
1. Mike Schmidt
2. Nolan Ryan
3. Bobby Grich
4. Carlton Fisk
5. Ted Simmons
6. Joe Torre
7. Edd Roush
8. Jimmy Wynn
9. Willard Brown
10. Perucho Cepeda
11. Joe Kelley
12. Darrell Evans
Contributors
1. O.P. Caylor
2. Dick Williams
3. Buck O'Neill
4. Al Munro Elias
5. Bob Ferguson
Luck is the residue of design." -- Branch Rickey
Bleed the Freak
1 Mike Schmidt
2 Carlton Fisk
3 Bobby Grich
4 Nolan Ryan
5 Ted Simmons
6 Joe Kelley
7 Charlie Keller
8 Rick Reuschel
9 Dick Lundy
10 Darrell Evans
11 Jimmy Sheckard
12 Phil Rizzuto
Rick Reuschel – Excellent pitcher who was hampered by a hitter’s paradise and poor defenders (Nothing like having Dave Kingman and Jerry Martin in your outfield). 1977 Cy Young worthy campaign, with 10 all-star level performances (73-80 less 75, 85, and 87). On a side note, I enjoy his 1977 Topps card pictured with his Cleveland Indians pitching brother Paul Reuschel. He can be seen wearing a batting helmet. A tall hurler with a build that brings back shades of a right-handed David Wells. Might be most remembered for serving up a homerun to Bo Jackson in the 1989 All-Star game.
Quotes from 2011 Hall of Merit ballot thread: Dan Rosenheck - Superficially similar to Tiant--both threw 3,500 innings with a 114 ERA+--but Reuschel was hurt by his fielders while Tiant was helped by his, and while Tiant rode the wave of massive pitcher seasons around 1970, Reuschel pitched half of his career when the 300-IP season was a thing of the past, and in the low-stdev 1980's. Plus he has that One Big Year (1977).
zop - The 1980's pitchers drought is real and reflects both the difficulty of dominating those very tough post-globalization/pre-expansion leagues and a sort of interregnum when the game was evolving between two meta-stable optimal pitcher usage patterns. Factor it all in, and I think Reuschel is a very strong candidate.
Joe Dimino: My Pennants Added system, which accounts for fielding support, parks, bullpen support, etc.; shows him right behind Dazzy Vance, Ed Walsh and Amos Rusie, and ahead of Jim Bunning, Sandy Koufax and Juan Marichal.
He isn't peakless either. His top 4 years are similar to that of Ron Guidry or Mike Scott - both considered 'peak' candidates. His 1977 was every bit as valuable as Bunning's 1966. Bunning definitely has him beat in years 2-5, but Reuschel makes it up with more quality in the back end. I get them essentially equal, Reuschel was a little better inning for inning, Bunning had a higher peak, but in the end they even out.
I have Reuschel with a 115 DRA+ over 3745 tIP, Bunning was 113 over 3739 tIP. This is where I would have ranked Bunning, who sailed into the Hall of Merit, I have no issue putting Reuschel here.
Even when I take my numbers, but filter them through a Bill James-type NHBA scoring system (that heavily focuses on peak), Reuschel still comes out in a group with guys like Jim Palmer, Noodles Hahn, Eddie Rommel, Tex Hughson, Clark Griffith and Whitey Ford. Hahn, Rommel and Hughson all had very nice peaks.
Using a JAWS scoring system, he comes out in a group with Wes Ferrell, Jack Quinn, Palmer, Stan Coveleski, Red Faber and Urban Shocker.
I am saying that Reuschel was every bit as good as the Jims, Palmer and Bunning. The only difference between Palmer and Reuschel is park and defense. Reuschel's 1977 was better than any season Palmer had. Palmer, like Bunning was better than Reuschel in the 2-5 best seasons, but by less than a win a year, and over the course of their careers, Reuschel was better, 115 DRA+ to Palmer's 113 (in a similar number of innings, Palmer had 3781 tIP. He had the one great year, and was very good from 1973-81 and 1985, 1987-89. That's a record that not a lot of pitchers can match.
Last edited by Jar of Flies; 03-20-2011 at 03:19 AM.
Registered User
1. Mike Schmidt
2. Carlton Fisk
3. Bobby Grich
4. Charlie Keller
5. Nolan Ryan
6. Darrell Evans
7. Cal McVey
8. Joe Kelley
9. Willard Brown
10. Jimmy Wynn
11. Ted Simmons
12. Leroy Matlock
this was a first no one from my ballot got in... now the top half is all the new guys, a very strong year. Also bumped Freehan up because frankly I where I had Simmons and Torre vis a vis him caused me to double take
1. Mike Schmidt
2. Nolan Ryan
3. Carlton Fisk
4. Bobby Grich
5. Lou Brock
6. Bill Freehan
7. Ted Simmons
8. Joe Torre
9. Edd Roush
10. Frank Howard
11. Orlando Cepeda
12. Cupid Childs
you guys will be back soon enough: Tony Perez, Dave Bancroft, Ray Dandridge, Tommy Leach, Darrell Evans
queing up further back are: Pinson, Evers, Maranville, Reggie Smith and Tommy John to name a few.
1. O.P. Caylor
2. Red Smith
3. Billy Evans
4. Tommy McCarthy
5. Bob Ferguson
OSHA-certified Moderator
1. Mike Schmidt
2. Nolan Ryan
3. Carlton Fisk
4. Ted Simmons
5. Bobby Grich
6. Burleigh Grimes
7. Edd Roush
8. Addie Joss
9. Luis Aparicio
10. Lefty Gomez
11. Joe Torre
12. Joe Kelley
Contributors
1. Billy Evans
2. Happy Chandler
3. O.P. Caylor
4. Vic Harris
5. Vin Scully
Tom Tresh George Kell Mark Fidrych Bob Feller
Ernie Harwell Soupy Sales Alex Chilton Sparky Anderson
Joe Nuxhall Gary Carter MCA Emanuel Steward
Sonny Elliot Dave Brubeck Earl Weaver Stan Musial
Jonathan Winters.
Registered User
1 Mike Schmidt
2 Nolan Ryan
3 Carlton Fisk
4 Ted Simmons
5 Addie Joss
6 Joe Torre
7 Burleigh Grimes
8 Eppa Rixey
9 Ed Roush
10 Bob Grich
11 Joe Kelley
12 Jim Wynn
Registered User
Joe Dimino is the founder and president of the Hall of Merit. Last year I cited his Pennants Added pitcher ratings re McGinnity, Lemon, and Pierce (re the "last" mlb pitcher in the HoM).
(my emphasis)
"Scoring systems" are methods for aggregating season measures as one-dimensional career rankings.
A scoring system answers all such questions as "does 6,6,1,1 beat 5,5,5?"
Researcher/advocate/mod
We have already reached a quorum on the player side. We're still two away on the contributor side.
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
a posse ad esse
Players
1. Mike Schmidt
2. Carlton Fisk
3. Nolan Ryan
4. Bobby Grich
5. Ted Simmons
6. Willard Brown
7. Joe Torre
8. Addie Joss
9. Eppa Rixey
10. Edd Roush
11. Joe Sewell
12. Rollie Fingers
With the five new names on the ballot, and only one removed, the following are dropped: Aparicio, Kelley, Berger, Freehan. Reuschel and Blue also make it to the queue.
Contributors
1. Buck O'Neill
2. Paul Krichell
3. Al Munro Elias
4. Billy Martin
5. Dick Williams
Again I have to make room... Danny Murtaugh and Charlie Grimm fall onto the queue.
September 16, 2012: The Losing Streak Ends
Registered User
Players:
1. Mike Schmidt
2. Nolan Ryan
3. Carlton Fisk
4. Ted Simmons
5. Addie Joss
6. Lou Brock
7. Jake Beckley
8. Edd Roush
9. Joe Kelley
10. Bobby Grich
11. Burleigh Grimes
12. Willard Brown
Contributors:
1. Buck O'Neil
2. Happy Chandler
3. Harry Caray
4. Phil Rizzuto
5. Vin Scully
Researcher/advocate/mod
Everybody who voted in the last election has voted now. Should I start the next election on Saturday?
On the Contributor side, we'll add:
Harvey , Doug
Steinbrenner , George
Weaver , Earl
On the player side, we add:
DeCinces , Doug
Downing , Brian
Forsch , Bob
Griffey, Sr. , Ken
Guidry , Ron
Hooton , Burt
Hough , Charlie
Luzinski , Greg
Richard , J R
Speier , Chris
White , Frank
We get some breathing room on the player side, but the contributor side only gets more crowded (after a long period of moving through holdovers).
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
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