Bob Lemon

[Bill Burgess]

Here's a name we never talk about. Is it because Bob Feller over-shadowed him that much?

He did win 20 games 7 times and came close twice. He was a work horse, too, leading the league in innings pitched 4 times, once going over 300. He led in CG 4 times, Batters Faced 5 times, GS 3 times. He even led in SOs once. He led in hits/9 once, and Whip once.

Overall, his record was more than very good. It was superb. His 207-128 record translates into an .618. So, why don't we ever talk about him?

Bob Lemon, Indians' P, 1946-49---BB Reference

[Steven Gallanter]

Here's a name we never talk about. Is it because Bob Feller over-shadowed him that much?

He did win 20 games 7 times and came close twice. He was a work horse, too, leading the league in innings pitched 4 times, once going over 300. He led in CG 4 times, Batters Faced 5 times, GS 3 times. He even led in SOs once. He led in hits/9 once, and Whip once.

Overall, his record was more than very good. It was superb. His 207-128 record translates into an .618. So, why don't we ever talk about him?

Bob Lemon, Indians' P, 1946-49---BB Reference

Bob Lemon was a genuinely great pitcher. However his playing career was overshadowed by his part in the Steinbrenner management machinations of the late 70's and early 80's.

Lemon was also the manager of the "South Side Hitmen" 1977 White Sox who were one of the most entertaining teams ever. Lemon also did a good job with the 1971 Royals.

[Beady]

No doubt Feller's reputation overshadowed Lemon to a greater or lesser extent, but taking them as pitchers on the same staff, Lemon didn't become a regular until Feller's time as a dominant figure was nearly over. Counting from 1948, Lemon's first big season, Lemon won 192 games; Early Wynn won 163 games for the Indians; Mike Garcia won 142; and Feller, 108.

Lemon got off to a slow start and didn't last well into his late thirties, so his career numbers are mostly not really good. He was in the top three among AL pitchers in wins eight seasons out of a nine-year stretch, yet he's only 100th in career wins. A couple of approximate contemporaries, Milt Pappas and Billy Pierce, are both a few slots above Lemon in career wins, yet between the two of them they were in the top three on the seasonal leaderboards only three times.

Warren Spahn is well known for having gotten off to a slow start because of the war, but Lemon missed two years to military service himself and was also delayed in maturing by his late conversion from third base. So Spahn ran ahead of Lemon in total wins every year from their respective 25-year old seasons on. Judging them strictly by their standing on the wins leaderboard -- a very superficial comparison, but viewed over the long run of several seasons a good simple approximation of their standing -- Spahn remained in the top three with great consistency until he turned forty, while Lemon never did it after 35 and won only six more games from 36 on.

Sandwich in five more big seasons of the kind he was putting up in the early '50's, and Lemon still would not quite match Spahn for longevity, but he would have 300 wins and be a lot better remembered.

I had forgotten that, the famous "Spahn, Sain and pray for rain" poem notwithstanding, 1948 was one of the worst years of Spahn's career. Not a bad year, but worse than almost all the others.

[JRB]

Here's a name we never talk about. Is it because Bob Feller over-shadowed him that much?

He did win 20 games 7 times and came close twice. He was a work horse, too, leading the league in innings pitched 4 times, once going over 300. He led in CG 4 times, Batters Faced 5 times, GS 3 times. He even led in SOs once. He led in hits/9 once, and Whip once.

Overall, his record was more than very good. It was superb. His 207-128 record translates into an .618. So, why don't we ever talk about him?

Bob Lemon, Indians' P, 1946-49---BB Reference

Great point Bill. Lemon was outstanding and pretty close to Feller in terms of pitching greatness. He was also one of the greatest hitting pitchers. My guess is that he's overlooked because of career length. He pitched in 13 seasons, but only 10 full time seasons. The reason is due to the fact that he didn't start his major league career until he was around 26. I don't know it for a fact, but I suspect it may have been due to the war and military service. Because of his shorter career span he isn't very high up on the cumulative stat lists. People sometimes mistake quantity for quality.

[EdTarbusz]

Bob Lemon's Major League career got off to a late start because he was originally a poor hitting third baseman and the Indians had Ken Keltner in front of him. He had a cup of coffee with the Indians in both 1941 and 1942. In 1946, when he started his career as a pitcher Lemon was 25.

Lemon was easily the best Indians pitcher in the post WWII period.

[Bill Burgess]

Lemon was easily the best Indians pitcher in the post WWII period.

Even better than Feller? Really think so?

[EdTarbusz]

Even better than Feller? Really think so?

The only years that Feller pitched better than Lemon were 1946 and 1951.

[Matthew C.]

Amazing hitter - nice little peak - help from his very good defenses - short career - ambiguous WW2 "credit him" vs. "do not credit him" debate equals a HOF squeeker.

His career WAR is 52, which is the definition of borderline, but he put up those 52 WAR in only 12 seasons, which is pretty solid. Led the league in IP four or five times and landed in the top 10 in ERA+ seven or so times. I will credit him a tad for "what ifs" in regards to WW2, even though there is no evidence that he would have been anything other than a below average hitting position player, adding little to his resume. Could he have been discovered as a pitcher during that time and run off another 1 or 2 great seasons? Sure it is possible, so I give him the tiniests of boosts.

[Bill Burgess]

The only years that Feller pitched better than Lemon were 1946 and 1951.

And yet, we hardly ever mention Bob Lemon's name. We mention Robin Roberts, but not Lemon. Shame. What a waste.

[Dick Groat's syndrome]

And yet, we hardly ever mention Bob Lemon's name. We mention Robin Roberts, but not Lemon. Shame. What a waste.

Robin Roberts was a superior pitcher though. It's a shame that Bob Lemon isn't better remembered, but at least there is a good reason that Roberts is more widely remembered.

[Bigfoot 88]

He is not only overshadowed by Feller but also by Early Wynn.
5X leader in complete games and 4X leader in Innings is impressive to me. Workhorses like him deserve to be in the Hall of Fame. Pitching all of those innings makes his ERA+ more impressive than it appears at first glance.

His K/BB totals are nearly equal for his career-1277 to 1251 which I think is interesting.

I am a little upset that Kevin Brown and David Cone didn't get HOF consideration yet their career numbers are similar to those of Lemon, Drysdale, and others.

[Bigfoot 88]

And yet, we hardly ever mention Bob Lemon's name. We mention Robin Roberts, but not Lemon. Shame. What a waste.

Roberts was easily better and by a good margin, by both peak and career value.

[Victory Faust]

Ted Williams, Al Kaline and George Kell always rated Lemon as the toughest they'd ever faced. He does seem to fly under the radar, as does that entire pitching staff of Feller, Lemon, Wynn and Garcia. When Cleveland had Satchel Paige and Hal Newhouser, was that possibly the most talented pitching staff ever assembled? I'd like to see a staff to beat it (in terms of career/talent, not how they performed while together).

Happy to see a Bob Lemon thread. Thanks!

[chinese home run]

Ted Williams, Al Kaline and George Kell always rated Lemon as the toughest they'd ever faced. He does seem to fly under the radar, as does that entire pitching staff of Feller, Lemon, Wynn and Garcia. When Cleveland had Satchel Paige and Hal Newhouser, was that possibly the most talented pitching staff ever assembled? I'd like to see a staff to beat it (in terms of career/talent, not how they performed while together).

Happy to see a Bob Lemon thread. Thanks!

If I'm not mistaken, the only two times you ever had four Hall of Famers on a pitching staff were on the '49 Indians (Feller, Lemon, Wynn and Paige) and the '54 Indians (Substitute Hal Newhouser for Paige.)

[EdTarbusz]

'49 Indians (Feller, Lemon, Wynn and Paige)

Thesed four also appeared together for the 1948 Indians.

[ian2813]

Thesed four also appeared together for the 1948 Indians.

No they didn't. Wynn was acquired along with Mickey Vernon in a trade after the 1948 season.

[EdTarbusz]

No they didn't. Wynn was acquired along with Mickey Vernon in a trade after the 1948 season.

You're right. I forgot that Wynn wasn't there yet.

[Buzzaldrin]

Top of my head- the 1933 Cardinals had Jesse Haines, Dizzy Dean, Dazzy Vance, and Burleigh Grimes.