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Steven Strasburg did not have Tommy John surgery!!
He had connective tissue added to his originally torn and healed (at SDSU) UCL giving him a double UCL/UCT (tendon) super ligament unlike all he is now soon going to compete against. Is this ethical?
“the first left turn circuit”
Registered User
No.
Let's burn him at the stake!
Curmudgeon
No, but he'll hurt his shoulder next. You can't have more than one labrum. RA Dickey doesn't even have a UCL.
Registered User
You're going to post something like this without a source?
Registered User
Here's betting this is a setup to lead into a conversation/pissing contest about Mike Marshall.
Registered User
Anyone who follows this board knows where Dirtberry stands on that issue and thats fine. There are different ways of doing things.
I just think if you're going to post something like that you better have a valid source, otherwise you lose any credibility you may have.
Coaching 101 Moderator
I don't always agree with Dirt, but I believe there should NOT be different ways of doing things, especially teaching how to pitch.Originally Posted by Switch_Hitter_29
What is it you need validation for that he had Tommy John's or he's having more surgery? The former is well documented the latter ... Dirt?I just think if you're going to post something like that you better have a valid source, otherwise you lose any credibility you may have.
"He who dares to teach, must never cease to learn."
- John Cotton Dana (1856–1929) - Offered to many by L. Olson - Iowa (Teacher)
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Chris O’Leary,
What’s crazier is there is not a good name for what actually took place!“I'm sorry, but this is the craziest thing you've said yet”
No, that’s just what they are calling it, his original UCL is still there with the same scarified regeneration from his previous college injury. They also called it TJ surgery when Gagne had his previous tears whittled down when this is not Ulnar Collateral replacement surgery.”Strasburg had Tommy John Surgery”
Answer the question, is it ethical to add extra UCT to an existing although degraded UCL? If so then why not other additions?
Iowanic,
SLOL! Maybe everybody should get extra thick UCL? Or how about more muscle in the right places? Or?“No.
Let's burn him at the stake!”
Pstein,
Ya never know? That’s what they said about fixing the UCL before some smarty pants ortho (Jobe) came up with that tendon replacement?“You can't have more than one labrum.”
Double patty sounds good on a hamburger, why not Labrum? Would that be ethical?
How about that! You can make the bigs without the use of your UCL, now who would have thought of such a thing before someone proved it? Please don’t go there or you will give cause for tg643 to pull down his fly.“RA Dickey doesn't even have a UCL”
Switch_hitter_29,
There are hundreds of sources, just google it but nobody has questioned whether it should have been done. Answer the question, is it ethical?“You're going to post something like this without a source?”
Then why the disclaimer? Answer the question“Anyone who follows this board knows where Dirtberry stands on that issue and thats fine.”
Not if they give you an unfair surgical advantage“There are different ways of doing things”
What’s to lose, I already have no credibility by you, that’s OK answer the question, there are many more whom have had their UCL left in because it was still together but shredded where the Dr’s thaught it would heal itself with enough time but not be as good as if it was new but helped with added tendon.”I just think if you're going to post something like that you better have a valid source, otherwise you lose any credibility you may have”
Tg643,
I can see your zipper is the first one down, Hmmmm, answer the question or quit tearjerking?“Here's betting this is a setup to lead into a conversation/pissing contest about Mike Marshall”
Jake,
I’m OK with adults pitching any way they wish but I’m not OK with these same adults saying it is OK for youth pitchers to copy them even if they are ignorant of the safe mechanics or if they are aware of the safe mechanics and refuse to perform them but this is not what the question is asking.“I believe there should NOT be different ways of doing things, especially teaching how to pitch.”
He did have TJ surgery in everybody’s misunderstanding of what that is last year.“What is it you need validation for that he had Tommy John's”
He actually did not have TJ surgery, that is a complete replacement of the UCL with palmeris longus tendon making it UCT replacement surgery, the original UCL was left in there and the UCT was added next to it. Is this ethical?
No, he is fine accept for his inadequate rehab, in fact he is better than fine! He has double strand super UCL now. If he rehabbed “sport specifically” he would be competing for a starting spot right now in fact.“or he's having more surgery?”
Where's baseball love when you need him, at least he answers questions (not talking about you here Jake) sometimes!
Last edited by Dirtberry; 03-19-2011 at 01:21 AM.
“the first left turn circuit”
Ethical for the doctors...yes, presented a medical problem they corrected it as they saw it was best indicated.
Ethical for SS....yes, it isn't like he and his med team "conspired" to create a situation that would give him an unfair advantage...until I see any evidence to support that I'll give the kid the benefit of the doubt.
Ethical for MLB??????
The jury has to be out on that, it may in fact cause him to be less than he was..who knows that one yet. Coming out of surgery anything can happen...I wouldn't automatically think he'll be the pitcher he was. You bet MLB will jump like a stuck pig though if he comes out and beats Gibby's ERA record or manages a string of 30 win seasons..or increases speed to Chapman levels...he could come out and throw like TJ did after his sugery and then you just have an extended career.
Registered User
The Washington Post doesn't seem to agree with you . . .. . . neither does NBC news . . .Strasburg's ulnar collateral ligament was replaced by a tendon from his thigh. He will spend the night at the hospital and return home to San Diego tomorrow. His rehab will start at a facility outside San Diego, and Strasburg will miss at least one year, likely all of the 2011 season. . . ya got any actual documented proof that it wasn't?Just five months after having a ligament in his elbow replaced with a tendon from his thigh, Strasburg started the next step on his path back to a major league pitching mound this week. He’s obviously not gunning 100 mph fastballs, but still those short-distance tosses out in southern California must feel like quite a milestone.
Yeah, well I did Google it and all I could find was the above.
Unless you got some actual proof that it wasn't replaced . . . your "ethical question" makes about as much sense in trying to answer, as the one that asks if it was "ethical" for the Bush administration to implode of the World Trade Center buildings, just to go to war.
Or were you simply asking it hypothetically?
Yes, I agree . . .Where's baseball love when you need him, at least he answers questions . . .
So who or what's your source to substantiate your claim that his UCL wasn't replaced?
In memory of "Catchingcoach" - Dave Weaver: February 28, 1955 - June 17, 2011
Coaching 101 Moderator
Whether Dirt's information is accurate or not.... Surgical modification to enhance performance is either upon us or happening quickly... Is it ethical?
Doesn't seem so to me....
"He who dares to teach, must never cease to learn."
- John Cotton Dana (1856–1929) - Offered to many by L. Olson - Iowa (Teacher)
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Student of the game.
There's no evidence that Tommy John surgery enhances performance.
All it does is get pitchers back to where they were.
Registered User
Jake, with the make up and functionality of a ligament and/or tendon, how do you believe that putting in a bigger one ( or smaller, longer, shorter, stronger, or whatever) would increase the performance of an athlete.
Ligaments hold joints/bones together, while tendons attach muscle to a bone, but neither supply or hold actual potential energy for movement.
I had ACL surgery years ago, where a piece of my patellar tendon (which is technically or would better be described as a ligament, but that's for another discussion) was used in the replacement. They now however, use cadaver tendons in some replacements, but even if the "donor" was the fastest human on earth, the recipient sure as heck ain't gonna run any fast just because he has his tendon(s).
Could they lengthen or shorten a ligament (or in the case tendon) to change the static and/or dynamic range of motion of the muscle(s) attached by it? Sure they could, but that would also pose problems in the resulting overall flexion and extension of the limb.
So saying that it an added performance benefit would be realized in the process is a real stretch (no pun intended).
I personally believe that the "in general" ethical question of performance enhancements has already been answered with the steroid issue . . . that I think was/is a more realistic possibility/probability of unethical performance augmentation then any surgical procedures that we have now, or that may be on the horizon.
JMO obviously . . .
Last edited by mudvnine; 03-19-2011 at 10:32 AM. Reason: Oops, wrote "ligament" twice, instead of "tendon" the second time.
In memory of "Catchingcoach" - Dave Weaver: February 28, 1955 - June 17, 2011
Baseball Voodoo
But what if they added "fast twitch" tendons?
Scorekeeper
What it seems we’re discussing, is performance enhancement, and we’re getting nitpicky about defining what that is. What it seems like, is that its really difficult to pinpoint that definition.
FI, enhancing one’s performance by doing things like weight lifting, long toss, or running is ok. Its also ok to improve one’s performance by using certain equipment like a certain glove, bands, spikes, bats, glasses, etc.. But, its not ok to enhance performance using certain drugs like ‘roids, while it is ok to take cortisone shots or other things to reduce or control pain.
So where would an operation that enhanced performance fall? You know darn well that if someone did prove there was a way to enhance performance by some surgical procedure, the gozillionaire players would all be having it done in the off-season, and a black market would be established that sooner or later made it available to anyone who could come up with the $$$.
Personally, unless and until MLB changes the rules to make such things somehow illegal, its very likely this isn’t the last time we’ll all be discussing this issue.
Last edited by scorekeeper; 03-19-2011 at 04:49 PM.
The pitcher who’s afraid to throw strikes, will soon be standing in the shower with the hitter who's afraid to swing.
Coaching 101 Moderator
Mud,
What I said was
Surgical modification to enhance performance is either upon us or happening quickly... Is it ethical? Doesn't seem so to me....How about if we look at this differently and view orthopedic surgery on an athlete as some type of enhancement, be it through immediate performance gains or through longevity.Ligaments hold joints/bones together, while tendons attach muscle to a bone, but neither supply or hold actual potential energy for movement.
I had ACL surgery years ago, where a piece of my patellar tendon (which is technically or would better be described as a ligament, but that's for another discussion) was used in the replacement. They now however, use cadaver tendons in some replacements, but even if the "donor" was the fastest human on earth, the recipient sure as heck ain't gonna run any fast just because he has his tendon(s).
Could they lengthen or shorten a ligament (or in the case tendon) to change the static and/or dynamic range of motion of the muscle(s) attached by it? Sure they could, but that would also pose problems in the resulting overall flexion and extension of the limb.
So saying that it an added performance benefit would be realized in the process is a real stretch (no pun intended
I personally believe that the "in general" ethical question of performance enhancements has already been answered with the steroid issue . . . that I think was/is a more realistic possibility/probability of unethical performance augmentation then any surgical procedures that we have now, or that may be on the horizon.
JMO obviously . . .
If we agree surgical sophistication is increasing then the leap to surgery increasing athletic enhancement is not that far a stretch.
How about items like lenses that enhance vision beyond 20-20???
"He who dares to teach, must never cease to learn."
- John Cotton Dana (1856–1929) - Offered to many by L. Olson - Iowa (Teacher)
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Curmudgeon
I'm not sure that there would be enough room in the shoulder to have a second labrum. I think (if it is possible) that it would impinge the range of motion.
Registered User
Sure, orthopedic surgery could be viewed as "performance enhancement." If one has ACL surgery or Tommy John and then does rehab, he or she is obviously going to be able to perform better than if they did not have the surgery... But to call it unethical? I don't know about that...
Mike Hopper
Former Gateway Grizzlies Intern
Registered User
If anything, I would have to agree with the potential gain of longevity.
But I'm not will to call someone "unethical" just because they had a surgery that's available to everyone and is not considered "dangerous" or "illegal".
One of the young men I'm working with tore his ACL the second preseason game of his Sophomore year, had surgery to fix the instability of his knee, and missed all of last year. As soon as he was cleared to hit (but nothing else), he was right back in the cage working harder than ever to simply get back to where he was before the injury.
His hard work and determination paid off and he has many colleges and even a couple of MLB teams looking at him. Should his baseball dreams by nullified simply because of an injury that he sustained doing what he loves, because he has a small tendon in his knee that replaced the one he tore and would have prevented him from playing the game ever again, had he not had it repaired?
Is anyone willing or able to truthfully say that this 17 y/o is "unethical", or somehow has a physical advantage over the other kids out there who didn't have a similar surgery when they were 16 years old?
Last edited by mudvnine; 03-19-2011 at 05:34 PM.
In memory of "Catchingcoach" - Dave Weaver: February 28, 1955 - June 17, 2011
Coaching 101 Moderator
Mud,
It might not be a discussion my generation will have, but it will certainly have to happen at some point. As long as their are athletes willing to do whatever they can to gain an advantage and there are doctors willing to push the ethical ceiling the only thing that levels the field are rules and laws.
Look at the progress heart enhancement devises such as pacemakers and implanted defibrillators have made.
Last edited by Jake Patterson; 03-19-2011 at 07:24 PM.
"He who dares to teach, must never cease to learn."
- John Cotton Dana (1856–1929) - Offered to many by L. Olson - Iowa (Teacher)
Please read Baseball Fever Policy and Forum FAQ before posting.
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Yes Jake, I guess with those parameters, than I suppose anything is possible . . .
Who would have ever thought 5 years ago that a pill could make this guy and his wife so happy?
In memory of "Catchingcoach" - Dave Weaver: February 28, 1955 - June 17, 2011
Coaching 101 Moderator
Moving away from ligaments and tendons for a minute... Current ICD's (implanted cardiac devises) can be externally programed with a telemetry devise. New bi-ventricular devices can be programmed to electrically maximize the heart's ability to pump thus providing more oxygenated blood to the body. This translates to more energy and stamina.
Doctors currently implant these devises to increase the quality of life for heart patients... How much of a stretch would it be for parents and doctors to implant to increase the quality of performance?
"He who dares to teach, must never cease to learn."
- John Cotton Dana (1856–1929) - Offered to many by L. Olson - Iowa (Teacher)
Please read Baseball Fever Policy and Forum FAQ before posting.
Registered User
Ethics are defined by the time in which they are defined.
Registered User
Quite a stretch . . . you'rer trying to extrapolate their benefits of a device used in a injured or diseased heart into that of an athletic or "healthy" heart. Look up "asynchronous cardiac pacing", "demand pacing", "synchronized cardioversion", and/or "unsynchronized defibrillation" if you're curious as to why implantation of the devices you listed above, could be fatal if used in the athlete or even simply a "normal" person.
In memory of "Catchingcoach" - Dave Weaver: February 28, 1955 - June 17, 2011
Registered User
Just to prove that there's nothing entirely new under the sun, I offer the following from one of my favorite baseball books ever: Christy Mathewson's Pitching in a Pinch (1912):
Mordecai Brown, the great pitcher of the Chicago Cubs and the man who did more than any other one player to bring four National League pennants and two world’s championships to that club, has a physical deformity which has turned out to be an advantage. Many years ago, Brown lost most of the first finger of his right hand in an argument with a feed cutter, said finger being amputated at the second joint; while his third finger is shorter than it should be, because a hot grounder carried part of it away one day. In some strange way, Brown has achieved wonders with this crippled hand. It is on account of the missing finger that he is called “Three Fingered” Brown, and he is better known by that appellation than by his real name.By the way, the book is downloadable for free from Project Gutenberg here:
Brown beat the Giants a hard game one day in 1911, pitching against me. He had a big curve, lots of speed, and absolute control. The Giants[Pg 83] could not touch him. Next day McGraw was out warming up with Arthur Wilson, the young catcher on the club.
“Wonder if he gets any new curve with that short first finger?” said McGraw, and thereupon crooked his own initial digit and began trying to throw the ball in different ways off it to see what the result would be. Finally he decided:
“No, I guess he doesn’t get anything extra with the abbreviated finger, but that’s lucky for you fellows, because, if I thought he did, I’d have a surgeon out here to-morrow operating on the first fingers of each of you pitchers.”
http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/33291
If you haven't read it, dump it on your Ipod or Iphone or Kindle and read it on the bus or plane. It's a hoot.
It's not whether you fall -- everyone does -- but how you come out of the fall that counts.
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