This is our fifty-eighth election in this project. The entire rules follow.
This election will end at 11:59:59 PM EDT on March 18, 2011.
The prior election, and the ballots of the 1992 voters, are in this thread
Researcher/advocate/mod
This is our fifty-eighth election in this project. The entire rules follow.
This election will end at 11:59:59 PM EDT on March 18, 2011.
The prior election, and the ballots of the 1992 voters, are in this thread
Last edited by jalbright; 03-07-2011 at 04:05 PM.
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
Rules
1) All BBF users in good standing may participate. However, if there is more than one vote being cast from any one computer or IP, it must be cleared in advance. Should there be unannounced multiple votes from the same IP, I will investigate the circumstances, and all user names involved may be barred from this project as a result, and all but one of the multiple usernames permanently banned from the site. I only anticipate exceptions for family members living in the same home, but I will entertain requests on other bases. Please note that I and the other mods who participate in the project have the capability of determining the IP from which posts come, and I for one intend to monitor same. I have had to deal with a single user manipulating a project with multiple votes, and I don't intend to repeat the experience.
2) Elections will require a 10 voter quorum. If we do not get ten voters and there are candidate(s) who would be elected no matter what the voters needed to make a quorum did, those candidate(s) will be inducted. Otherwise, no one will be inducted. Further, if we fail to elect a full complement of candidates for the ballot in question in two of any four consecutive elections, the portion(s) of the project failing to meet the election requirement will end. If, for instance, we're doing fine on the player end but not the contributor end, I would drop the contributor end under this rule.
3) We will start in 1936, just as Cooperstown did. For the first election (1936), voters will rank their top 20, taking 10. After that we will go to having voters rank their top 12 players. Points awarded 12-11-10, etc. We will take the top five through 1940, then top three players per year elected until 2010, then two per year. If a voter does not number his selections, I will try to get him/her to do so. If they do not do so before the end of the election period, I may in my sole discretion invalidate the ballot. I have included this provision in order to ease the process of recording the votes. On another point, I know, the 1936 backlog is huge--but that was a historical issue they couldn't avoid, so neither will we.
4) We will also have a contributor ballot, which will elect one a year through 1985, then one every three (3) years. Contributors will be ranked 1 through 5, with points awarded 5-4-3-2-1. Voters may choose to participate in either one of the ballots or both.
5) It is permissible to vote for a candidate on both the contributor and player lists.
6) You are allowed to change your ballot at any time the voting is open. However, if you change your ballot, you've got to notify me (jalbright) by PM or by a new post in the voting thread, or the changes likely will not be registered.
7) Players are eligible at the later of age 45 or the first year thereafter in which the player does not play. If the birthdate is not known, add five years to the first time the player misses a season and has less than 10 games the next season. There is an exception for early death, in which case the year of death plus two will be used if that yields an earlier date.
8) Contributors become eligible at age 65 or in the year of death plus two. whichever comes first.
9) Each election will run for approximately two weeks unless expressly altered by the project manager, contributors and players done simultaneously.
10) No one is excluded from being a candidate, regardless of the league they played in, except those elected in either the contributor or player ballots. At that point, they are removed from further consideration. If there are players who returned to the Negro Leagues or Japan after going to the majors, the departure from the majors will be their career end date for purposes of this project.
11) The standard for including a player on one's ballot is that the player must in the voter's opinion be among the very best eligible players (preferably the number voted on, but if a voter wishes to support someone they feel is 15th in a 12 person ballot instead of one of the top 12, it's too close for anyone to reasonably object. On the other hand, supporting the 25th best eligible candidate on a 12 person ballot is probably beyond the pale). I reserve the power to invalidate ballots which I do not feel are a reasonably knowledgeable, good faith effort to rank the players. One issue I am quite concerned about is that I do not want to see what clearly appear to be attempts to manipulate the ballot so as to elect a candidate. In isolation, I probably could live with this, but if it became a widely used tactic, the project would devolve into something I have no desire to be associated with. Moreover, I think that this position asks everyone else to cast legitimate votes so that you can manipulate the system to favor your pet candidates. I cannot accept that, as it strikes me as unfair to other voters. For example, you can't expect to favor even a legitimate HOF candidate like Bill Dahlen over Babe Ruth to get Dahlen elected without being asked to provide a reasonable justification for ranking Dahlen over Ruth. If you can provide a reasonable justification in that scenario, the ballot will stand. If not, you will be asked to make a change. I realize voters will sometimes have idiosyncratic choices, and I try to allow for that. However, a clear flouting of a consensus is apt to be met with a request that the ballot be justified pursuant to this rule. Certainly, a reasonable justification does not indicate in essence simply that you want Dahlen elected. Furthermore, if I invalidate multiple ballots by the same individual as failing to meet this rule, that individual will forever lose the right to have his/her ballots counted. Voters are encouraged to consider character, sportsmanship, and compliance with the rules and spirit of baseball in their rankings of players.
12) I will post lists of eligible players and contributors before each election. If you have a question about the eligibility of a candidate, please ask. I will provide a list of future eligibility dates as well.
13) My eligibility lists come from all persons in the BBF HOF, BBTF Hall of Merit, and Cooperstown, plus all persons getting a vote in a BBF HOF election in the past year and a half or in a BBWAA election. This is a relatively comprehensive list, and thus I must request that if you want another candidate included, you provide some justification for why said candidate is worthy of getting a vote in this project. The main area I think this might come into play is if a voter supports a person who was eligible for the final selections from the recent pre WWII or Negro League committees but not on my master list. That fact alone would serve as ample justification for putting said candidate on the list. We may learn more about Cuban ball or what have you and thus include others after a case is made for them, however. The contributor list is undoubtedly not as comprehensive, and this fact will be taken into consideration. For players, any request for a multiple time all-star in the all-star era will be approved. Players of that quality will generally be approved without much ado. However, when a player lacks that kind of qualification, I will likely ask for you to get a second from among our voters via a post in the current election thread. When in doubt, I will also require a second for suggested contributors. If a second is forthcoming, the player will be added. If not, the request will be rejected. I want to limit requests and seconds to players or contributors you actually might vote for.
14) Other than the sportsmanship and character issues, players are to be evaluated solely upon their play. I would prefer that if a player is qualified by his play standing alone that he be elected on that basis. However, a candidate may only be elected either as a contributor or a player, but not both. Contributors are the area where the entire body of work during his career in the sport, including his play, managing, scouting, executive, writing, broadcasting or other work in the sport is relevant. Contributors are to be ranked based on who the voter thinks is most worthy of induction into the Contributor group in this project.
15) Any ballot with two (2) or more spots unfilled with eligible candidates is invalid. In the event of the listing of ineligible names, I will try to notify the voter so that he/she can correct the ballot before the end of the voting period. If the change is made timely, it will count. If not, and there are two or more invalid names, the ballot will not be considered valid. If there is only one, the ineligible name will be stricken and all names after it on the affected ballot will be moved up one spot.
16) Any players listed beyond the 12th place for any ballot but the first (in which case it is 20th place) will be ignored. If more than one person is listed as tied for the last available place and the ballot is oversize, all names will be dropped, which may lead to the invalidation of the ballot.
17) Ties are not permitted in ballot listings. I reserve the right to invalidate ballots for use of ties in the rankings, be it within a single ballot or over the course of several ballots. If the voter does not correct such a listing voluntarily, except in the case of an oversize ballot tie for the last eligible place, if do not invalidate the ballot, I will choose the placement of the two "tied" candidates, generally preferring the candidate preferred by the other voters.
18) For any ties between candidates straddling the in/out line of selections, the first thing considered is the ranking of the candidates by the ballots cast. If there are more than two candidates tied, use a 2-1-0 or whatever is appropriate for the number of players tied system. If a voter does not list a candidate, he receives zero points in the tiebreaker procedure. Once one person separates from the tied group, restart with the remaining candidates until there are only as many candidates as the rules call for being elected. If they remain tied after this process, the candidate with the most votes received wins. If it is still tied after that, those with the most #1 votes as the next step, then the most #2 votes and so on to see if that breaks the tie. If not, we will induct all candidates who remain tied at that point.
19) One thing we're going to have to be aware of is the timeline in the case of at least a few contributors. Two which jump out at me are Buck O'Neill, 1976, and Branch Rickey, 1946. I intend to eventually vote for both men, but in 1946, Jackie Robinson was still in Montreal. Really, Branch should wait until at least 1947 after Jackie's success in the majors to get credit for that move. If you think Rickey belongs in the top 5 in 1946 without his role in breaking the color line, that's fine--but he shouldn't get credit for that important success until it actually happened. Buck O'Neill did some important things up until 1976, but after that he was in Ken Burns' Baseball and he was instrumental in the establishment of the Negro Leagues Hall of Fame (both occurred in or around 1994). If you think he belongs based on accomplishments before those two things, that's perfectly acceptable, but please don't credit him with them before they actually happened.
20) I will maintain a thread of the project's history and rules which will provide a listing of all elected candidates.
21) Feel free to ask questions by either sending jalbright a PM, or by posting a question in voting thread
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
The players who become eligible in 1993 are:
On the contributor side, there are no additions this yearCode:Campbell , Bill Cash , Dave Cey , Ron Concepcion , Dave Enatsu , Yutaka Foster , George Garvey , Steve Harrah , Toby Jorgenson , Mike Kingman , Dave Rivers , Mickey Russell , Bill Yeager , Steve
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
The 1992 player candidates who were not elected had these results in the that election:
The 1992 contributor candidates who were not elected had these results in the that election:Code:players…………….. votes pts Jennings , H 9 57 Joss , Addie 6 52 Torre, Joe 9 52 Bresnahan , R 9 51 Tiant, Luis 7 51 Roush , Edd 7 42 Wynn, Jimmy 7 39 Brown, Willard 6 32 Rixey , Eppa 4 32 Kelley , Joe 5 30 Grimes , B 4 29 Brock, Lou 3 26 Evans, Darrell 3 22 Keller , C 3 21 McVey , Cal 3 19 Berger , Wally 2 18 Sheckard , J 4 18 Beckley , Jake 2 16 Smith, Reggie 2 13 Richardson , H 1 10 Aparicio, Luis 2 9 Elliott, Bob 1 9 Howard, Frank 1 7 Lundy , Dick 1 7 Cepeda, Orlando 1 6 Gomez, Lefty 1 6 Cepeda, Perucho 4 5 Childs , Cupid 2 5 Freehan, Bill 1 5 Bando, Sal 1 4 Pike , Lip 2 4 Rizzuto , Phil 1 4 Matlock, Leroy 1 3 Perez, Tony 1 3 Rice , Sam 1 3 Sewell , Joe 1 3 Bancroft , Dave 1 2 Fingers, Rollie 1 2 Maranville , R 1 2 Yamamoto, Koji 1 2 Dandridge, Ray 1 1 Newcombe, Don 1 1
I strongly suggest that you pay attention to this list, as the leaders of the holdovers are likely to join any strong newcomer candidates as the leaders for winning induction.Code:contributors………. votes pts Greenlee, Gus 4 16 Rizzuto, Phil 5 16 Caylor , O. P. 4 13 Harris, Vic 5 10 Scully, Vin 3 10 Caray, Harry 2 8 Evans, Billy 2 8 Ferguson, Bob 3 8 Chandler, Happy 2 7 Elias, Al Munro 3 5 Jobe, Frank 1 5 Krichell, Paul 1 4 Smith, Red 1 4 Abe, Iso 2 3 Martin, Billy 1 2 McCarthy, Tommy 1 2 Murnane, Tim 1 1 Murtaugh, Danny 1 1
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
Members of the Best of Baseball Hall. Last election's inductees are in red.
Players
ContributorsCode:Hank Aaron Pete Alexander Dick Allen Cap Anson Luke Appling Richie Ashburn Earl Averill Frank Baker Ernie Banks Ross Barnes John Beckwith Cool Papa Bell Johnny Bench Charlie Bennett Yogi Berra Akira Bessho Lou Boudreau Ken Boyer Dan Brouthers Mordecai Brown Ray Brown Jim Bunning Jesse Burkett Roy Campanella Rod Carew Max Carey Steve Carlton Bob Caruthers Oscar Charleston Fred Clarke John Clarkson Roberto Clemente Ty Cobb Mickey Cochrane Eddie Collins Jimmy Collins Roger Connor Stan Coveleski Sam Crawford Joe Cronin Bill Dahlen George Davis Dizzy Dean Ed Delahanty Bill Dickey Martin Dihigo Joe DiMaggio Larry Doby Bobby Doerr Don Drysdale Buck Ewing Red Faber Bob Feller Wes Ferrell Elmer Flick Whitey Ford Willie Foster Nellie Fox Jimmie Foxx Frankie Frisch Pud Galvin Lou Gehrig Charlie Gehringer Bob Gibson Josh Gibson Jack Glasscock Joe Gordon George Gore Goose Goslin Frank Grant Hank Greenberg Heinie Groh Lefty Grove Stan Hack Billy Hamilton Isao Harimoto Gabby Hartnett Harry Heilmann Billy Herman Pete Hill Paul Hines Rogers Hornsby Carl Hubbell Kazuhisa Inao Monte Irvin Joe Jackson Reggie Jackson Ferguson Jenkins Grant "Home Run"Johnson Walter Johnson Al Kaline Masaichi Kaneda Tim Keefe Willie Keeler King Kelly Harmon Killebrew Ralph Kiner Sandy Koufax Nap LaJoie Bob Lemon Buck Leonard Pop Lloyd Ted Lyons Biz Mackey Sherry Magee Mickey Mantle Juan Marichal Eddie Mathews Christy Mathewson Willie Mays Willie McCovey Joe McGinnity Bid McPhee Joe Medwick Jose Mendez Minnie Minoso Johnny Mize Dobie Moore Joe Morgan Stan Musial Shigeo Nagashima Hal Newhouser Kid Nichols Phil Niekro Katsuya Nomura Sadaharu Oh Alejandro Oms Jim O'Rourke Mel Ott Satchel Paige Jim Palmer Gaylord Perry Eddie Plank Charlie Radbourn Pee Wee Reese Robin Roberts Brooks Robinson Frank Robinson Jackie Robinson Bullet Joe Rogan Pete Rose Red Ruffing Amos Rusie Babe Ruth Ron Santo Louis Santop Tom Seaver Al Simmons George Sisler Enos Slaughter Hilton Smith Duke Snider Warren Spahn Tris Speaker Victor Starffin Willie Stargell Joe Start Turkey Stearnes Harry Stovey Mule Suttles Don Sutton Ezra Sutton Bill Terry Sam Thompson Cristobal Torriente Pie Traynor Dazzy Vance Arky Vaughan Rube Waddell Honus Wagner Bobby Wallace Ed Walsh Paul Waner John M. Ward Willie Wells Zack Wheat Deacon White Hoyt Wilhelm Billy Williams Smoky Joe Williams Ted Williams Jud Wilson George Wright Early Wynn Carl Yastrzemski Cy Young
Code:Doc Adams Mel Allen Walter Alston Red Barber Ed Barrow Buzzue Bavasi Ed Bolden Alexander Cartwright Henry Chadwick Frank Chance Charlie Commiskey Charles Conlon Tom Connolly Jim Creighton Jack Dunn Leo Durocher Rube Foster Ford Frick Clark Griffith Ned Hanlon William Hulbert Miller Huggins Ban Johnson Tetsuharu Kawakami Bill Klem Kenesaw Landis Tommy Lasorda Al Lopez Connie Mack Larry MacPhail Joe McCarthy John McGraw Bill McKechnie Marvin Miller Walter O'Malley Dickey Pearce Cum Posey A. J. Reach Francis Richter Branch Rickey Jacob Ruppert Frank Selee Ben Shibe Matsutaro Shoriki Billy Southworth Al Spalding Alfred Spink J. G. T. Spink Casey Stengel C. I. Taylor Kazuto Tsuruoka Bill Veeck George Weiss Sol White J. L. Wilkinson Harry Wright
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
The complete list of eligible players:
The complete list of eligible contributors:Code:Adams , Babe Adams , Bobby Adams , Sparky Allen , Johnny Alou , Jesus Alou , Matty Alou, Felipe Altrock , Nick Aparicio, Luis Archer , Jimmy Arlett , Buzz Austin , Jimmy Avila, Bobby Bailey , Bob Bancroft , Dave Bando , Sal Barry , Jack Bartell , Dick Battin , Joe Bauer , Hank Beaumont , Ginger Beckert, Glenn Beckley , Jake Belanger , Mark Bender , Chief Benton , Larry Berg , Moe Bergen , Marty Berger , Wally Berry , Charlie Bibby , Jim Bigbee , Carson Billingham , Jack Bishop , Max Blackwell , Ewell Blades , Ray Blair , Paul Blass , Steve Blue , Lu Bluege , Ossie Bodie , Ping Boley , Joe Bond , Tommy Bonds , Bobby Boone, Bob Bottomley , Jim Bowa , Larry Boyer , Clete Bradley , Bill Brecheen , Harry Breitenstein , Ted Bresnahan , Roger Brewer , Jim Bridges , Tommy Brock, Lou Brown , Willard Browning , Pete Bruton, Bill Burdette , Lew Burgess , Smoky Burns , George J. Bush , Joe Bush , Donie Bush , Guy Cadore , Leon Camilli , Dolph Camnitz , Howie Campaneris , Bert Campbell , Bill Cardenal , Jose Cardenas , Leo Carrasquel. Chico Carrigan , Bill Carroll, Clay Case , George Cash , Dave Cash, Norm Cavaretta , Phil Cepeda , Orlando Cepeda , Perucho Cey , Ron Chandler , Spud Chapman , Ben Chapman , Ray Chapman , Sam Chase , Hal Chesbro , Jack Childs , Cupid Cicotte , Eddie Cissell , Bill Clark , Watty Clarkson , Bus Clift, Harlond Coakley , Andy Colavito, Rocky Collins , Shano Combs , Earle Concepcion , Dave Conroy , Wid Coombs , Jack Cooper , Andy Cooper , Mort Cooper , Walker Cooper , Wilbur Courtney , Clint Cox , Billy Crandall , Doc Crandall, Del Cravath , Gavvy Criger , Lou Critz , Hughie Cross , Lave Crowder , Al Cruise , Walt Cruz , Jose Cuccinello , Tony Cummings , Candy Cuyler , Kiki Dandridge , Ray Danning , Harry Dark , Alvin Daubert , Jake Davis , Curt Davis , Harry Davis , Spud Day , Leon Derringer , Paul DiMaggio , Dom Dinneen , Bill Doak , Bill Donlin , Mike Donovan , Bill Dooin , Red Doyle , Jack Doyle , Larry Dropo , Walt Duffy , Hugh Dugan , Joe Dunlap , Fred Dykes , Jimmy Earnshaw , George Easter, Luke Edwards , Hank Ehmke , Howard Elberfeld , Kid Elliott , Bob Elliott , Jumbo Ellis , Dock Enatsu , Yutaka Ennis, Del Ens , Jewel Erskine , Carl Evans , Darrell Evers , Johnny Face, Roy Fairly , Ron Falkenberg , Cy Ferrell , Rick Fingers , Rollie Fitzsimmons , Freddie Fletcher , Art Flood , Curt Fonseca , Lew Foster , Eddie Foster , George Fraser , Chick Freehan, Bill Fregosi , Jim Furillo , Carl Galan , Augie Garver, Ned Garvey , Steve Gelbert , Charlie Gleason , Kid Gomez , Lefty Gonzalez , Mike Gowdy , Hank Grant , Eddie Grantham , George Grimes , Burleigh Grimm , Charlie Grissom , Marv Groat, Dick Gromek , Steve Grove , Orval Gustine , Frank Haas , Mule Haddix, Harvey Hafey , Chick Hahn , Noodles Haines , Jesse Hallahan , Bill Harder , Mel Hargrave , Bubbles Harrah , Toby Harrelson , Bud Harris , Bucky Harris , Vic Hatton , Grady Hearn , Jim Hebner , Richie Hegan , Jim Helms, Tommy Hemus , Solly Henrich , Tommy Herman , Babe Herzog , Buck Hickman , Jim Higgins , Mike Hiller , John Hinchman , Bill Hodges, Gil Holmes , Tommy Holtzman , Ken Hooper , Harry Horton , Willie Houtteman , Art Howard , Frank Howard, Elston Hoy , Dummy Hoyt , Waite Huggins , Miller Hunter , Catfish Hutchinson , Fred Irwin , Charlie Jackman , Will Jackson , Sonny Jennings , Hughie Jensen , Jackie John , Tommy Johnson , Bob Johnson , Davey Johnson , Judy Jones , Charley Jones , Fielder Jones , Sam P. Jordan , Tim Jorgenson , Mike Joss , Addie Judge , Joe Jurges , Billy Kaat, Jim Kamm , Willie Kawakami , Tetsuharu Kell , George Keller , Charlie Kelley , Joe Keltner , Ken Kerr , Dickie Kessinger , Don Killefer , Bill Kilroy , Matt Kinder , Ellis Kingman , Dave Klein , Chuck Kling , Johnny Kluszewski, Ted Knabe , Otto Koosman , Jerry Koyama, Masaaki Kremer , Ray Kress , Red Kuenn, Harvey Kuhel , Joe Kuzava , Bob Lange , Bill Lanier , Hal Larkin , Henry Larsen, Don Latham , Arlie Lavagetto , Cookie Law, Vern Lazzeri , Tony Leach , Freddy Leach , Tommy Lee , Bill Lee , Bill (Spaceman) Leever , Sam Leonard , Emil (Dutch) Lewis , Duffy Lewis, Buddy Lindstrom , Freddie Lobert , Hans Lockman , Whitey Lolich, Mickey Lollar, Sherm Lombardi , Ernie Lonborg , Jim Long , Herman Lopat , Ed Lopes , Davey Lopez , Al Lowe , Bobby Lowenstein , John Lucas , Red Lundy , Dick Luque , Dolf Lyle , Sparky Lyons , Denny Maglie , Sal Maloney, Jim Mancuso , Gus Manush , Heinie Maranville , Rabbit Marberry , Firpo Marion , Marty Maris, Roger Marquard , Rube Marshall , Mike G. Martin , Morrie Martin , Pepper Mathews , Bobby May , Lee Mays , Carl Mazeroski , Bill McAleer , Jimmy McCarthy , Tommy McCarver , Tim McCormick , Frank McCormick , Jim McDaniel , Lindy McDougald, Gil McGowan , Bill McGraw , Tug McInnis , Stuffy McLain , Denny McLean , Larry McMahon, Don McManus , Marty McMillan, Roy McNally , Dave McVey , Cal Meadows , Lee Messersmith , Andy Meusel , Bob Miksis , Eddie Milan , Clyde Millan , Felix Miller , Bing Miller , Dots Miller , Hack Monday , Rick Money , Don Monroe , Bill Moon, Wally Moore , Jo-Jo Moore , Terry Moran , Pat Mostil , Johnny Mota, Manny Mulcahy , Hugh Mullane , Tony Mungo , Van Munson , Thurman Murcer , Bobby Murphy , Danny Murray , Red Myer , Buddy Nehf , Art Nettles , Graig Newcombe , Don Newsom , Bobo Nicholson , Bill Niekro , Joe Northey , Ron O'Doul , Lefty Oeschger , Joe O'Farrell , Bob O'Leary , Charlie Oliva, Tony Oliver , Al O'Neill , Buck O'Neill , Steve O'Neill , Tip Orr , Dave Pabor , Charlie Pafko , Andy Pascual, Camilo Paskert , Dode Pearson , Monte Peckinpaugh , Roger Peitz , Heinie Pennock , Herb Perdue , Hub Perez , Tony Perkins , Cy Perranoski , Ron Perry , Jim Pesky , Johnny Petrocelli, Rico Phillippe , Deacon Pierce , Billy Pike , Lip Piniella, Lou Pinson, Vada Pipp , Wally Podres, Johnny Poles , Spotswood Porterfield , Bob Powell , Boog Power , Vic Pruett , Hub Quinn , Jack Raschi , Vic Raymond , Bugs Redding , Dick Reiser , Pete Remsen , Jack Reynolds , Allie Rice , Del Rice , Sam Richardson , Bobby Richardson , Hardy Ring , Jimmy Ritchey , Claude Rivers , Mickey Rixey , Eppa Rizzuto , Phil Robertson , Dave Roe , Preacher Rolfe , Red Rommel , Eddie Root , Charlie Rosen, Al Roush , Edd Rucker , Nap Rudolph , Dick Ruel , Muddy Russell , Bill Ryan , Jimmy Sain , Johnny Sanguillen , Manny Sauer , Hank Schacht , Al Schaefer , Germany Schalk , Ray Schang , Wally Schoendienst , Red Schreckengost , Ossie Schulte , Frank Scott , Everett Scott , Jack Selkirk , George Severeid , Hank Sewell , Joe Sewell , Luke Sewell , Rip Seymour , Cy Shantz, Bobby Sheckard , Jimmy Sherdel , Bill Shocker , Urban Short , Chris Siebert , Sonny Sievers , Roy Simmons, Curt Singleton , Ken Sisti , Sibby Smith , Earl Smith , Reggie Smith , Sherry Sparks , Tully Stahl , Jake Stanky , Eddie Stanley , Mickey Staub , Rusty Steinfeldt , Harry Stephens , Vern Stephenson , Riggs Stottlemyre , Mel Street , Gabby Suhr , Gus Sukeforth , Clyde Sweeney , Bill Tannehill , Jesse Taylor , Ben Tebbetts , Birdie Tekulve, Kent Tenace , Gene Tenney , Fred Thevenow , Tommy Thomas , Ira Thomson , Bobby Tiant, Luis Tiernan , Mike Tinker , Joe Tobin , Jim Toney , Fred Torgeson, Earl Torre, Joe Torrez , Mike Travis, Cecil Trouppe , Quincy Trout , Dizzy Trucks , Virgil Turner , Terry Uhle , George Valo , Elmer Van Haltren , George Vander Meer , Johnny Veach , Bobby Vernon , Mickey Walberg , Rube Walker , Harry Walters , Bucky Wambsganss , Bill Waner , Lloyd Warfield , Frank Warneke , Lon Watson , Bob Welch , Mickey Werber , Billy Wertz, Vic West , Sam Westrum , Wes White , Sol White , Will Whitehill , Earl Williams , Cy Williams , Ken Williamson , Ned Willis , Vic Wills, Maury Wilson , Hack Wilson , Jim Wilson , Jimmie Witt , Whitey Wood , Joe Wood , Wilbur Wright , Glenn Wyatt , Whit Wynn , Jimmy Yamamoto , Koji Yeager , Steve Yerkes , Steve York , Rudy Young , Pep Youngs , Ross Zachary , Tom Zimmer , Chief
Code:Abe , Iso Ashford, Emmet Autry, Gene Bancroft , Frank Barlick, Al Berger , Sy Brickhouse , Jack Buck , Jack Bulkely , Morgan Busch , Augie Cambria , Joe Campbell , Jim Canel, Buck Caray, Harry Carrigan, Bill Caylor , O. P. Chandler, Happy Chylak , Nestor Conlan , Jocko Cooper , Andy Cummings , Candy Dark , Alvin Davids , Bob Dinneen , Bill Doubleday , Abner Dreyfuss , Barney Dyer , Eddie Dykes , Jimmy Elias , Al Munro Evans, Billy Feller, Sherm Fergsuon, Bob Fetzer, John Foster , John B. Fowler, Bud Fullerton , Hugh Giles , Warren Gleason , Kid Gonzalez , Mike Gowdy , Curt Greenlee, Gus Grimm, Charlie Haak , Howie Haney , Fred Harridge, Willie Harris , Bucky Harris, Vic Harwell, Ernie Heydler, John Hillerich , John Hodges, Gil Hodges, Russ Houk , Ralph Howsam, Bob Hubbard , Cal Hutchinson , Fred Jennings , Hughie Jobe , Frank Krichell, Paul Kuenn , Harvey Kuhn , Bowie Lanigan, Ernest Lardner , Ring Leavitt, Jr. , Charles W. Luque , Dolf MacPhail, Lee Manley , Effa Martin , Billy Mauch , Gene McCarthy , Tommy McGowan, Bill Mendez , Jose Mills , A. G. Mizuhara, Shigeru Moran , Pat Murnane, Tim Murtaugh, Danny Mutrie , Jim Navin , Frank Nelson , Lindsey Norworth, Jack O'Day, Hank O'Doul, Lefty O'Neill, Buck O'Neill, Steve Osborn , Frank Pasquel, Jorge Patkin, Max Pesky , Johnny Pompez , Alex Pulliam, Harry Ramirez, Felo Reese , Jimmie Rice, Grantland Richards, Paul Ritter , Lawrence Rizzuto , Phil Robinson , Wilbert Schoendienst, Red Scully, Vin Sewell , Luke Sheppard, Bob Smith, Red Stallings , George Street, Gabby Thayer , Ernest Tyson, Ty van der Ahe, Chris Warfield , Frank Weyer , Lee Wilson , Horace Wrigley, Phil Yawkey, Tom
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
My ballot
Players
1. Luis Tiant
2. Hughie Jennings
3. Roger Bresnahan
4. Joe Torre
5. Jimmy Wynn
6. Joe Kelley
7. Willard Brown
8. Charlie Keller
9.Perucho Cepeda
10. Cupid Childs
11. Sal Bando
12. Quincy Trouppe
Contributors
1. Phil Rizzuto
2. Vic Harris
3. Iso Abe
4. Al Munro Elias
5. Vin Scully
I'm adding Sal Bando and Quincy Trouppe in the 11th and 12th spots. On the contributor side, Al Munro Elias enters the ballot. On the contributor side, Vin Scully enters in the bottom spot..
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
Quincy Trouppe
He had a nice long career as a catcher in the Negro Leagues, over 20 years. The BBTF guys figure him at around 260+ career win shares, 78 in his best three seasons and 105 in his best five consecutive. They think he would have been a 270/370/420 hitter, good for a 119 OPS+, in about 7200 AB.
AG2004's take on Trouppe is instructive, I think:
from pages 50-53 of the recent book on the Mexican Leagues, South of the Color Barrier by John Virtue and p. 347 of Riley's Negro League Biographical Encyclopedia: some teammates of Trouppe's on the Bismarck, ND team: Satchel Paige (!!), Hilton Smith (!), Red Haley of the Memphis Red Sox, Double Duty Radcliffe (six Negro League all star games, though probably some duplicates in a year because they often played two), Barney Morris (made 2 Negro League All-Star games) and Chet Brewer (again a Negro League multiple season all-star) and Roosevelt Davis (Pittsburgh Crawfords and Cleveland Buckeyes). That Bismarck team was a true powerhouse.I realized that seven All-Star-Type seasons (20+ win shares) was the general cut-off area for post-1925 catchers and the BBFHOF; for the other field positions, eight was the general cut-off. Hartnett, who is a consensus member of the BBFHOF, has seven such seasons. Ivan Rodriguez, who most people here would consider worthy of Cooperstown, has also recorded seven such seasons. Since catching, more than playing any other of the eight "everyday" positions, makes high demands on the human body, and since there seems to be a limit on how often a human can catch, putting the cutoff a little lower here makes sense.
For this reason, the de facto cutoffs that the BBFHOF has established for win shares are lower at catcher than at the other positions. Again, since there are physical limits to how often a human being can catch, I don't have a problem with this. Since Trouppe has reached these standards, he belongs in the BBFHOF.
Case to Consider: TROUPPE, Quincy
1. Was he ever regarded as the best player in baseball? Did anybody, while he was active, ever suggest that he was the best player in baseball?
No.
2. Was he the best player on his team?
Between late 1944 and 1947, Trouppe was considered the star of the Cleveland Buckeyes. While the team was mediocre in 1946, it did win the pennant in 1945 and 1947.
3. Was he the best player in baseball at his position? Was he the best player in the league at his position?
Trouppe’s MLEs project him with as many or more win shares than the top MLB catchers in 1939, 1941, 1942, 1946, 1947, and 1948, and more win shares than the top AL catcher in 1940 and 1943.
However, only in 1947 and 1948 was Trouppe the best catcher in baseball. Until 1946, Josh Gibson was far and away the best catcher in the game, and Trouppe would have looked poor by comparison. (Next to Gibson’s MLEs, all other catchers look poor by comparison.)
4. Did he have an impact on a number of pennant races?
Cleveland won the NAL pennants in 1945 and 1947. In the 1945 Negro World Series, Trouppe batted over .400 as the Buckeyes swept the favored Homestead Grays.
5. Was he good enough that he could play regularly after passing his prime?
Trouppe had an All-Star-type season in 1948, at the age of 35, and caught for a few years more. Due to the color line, he didn’t appear in the major leagues until 1952, when he played in six games at age 39. I have to answer yes here.
6. Is he the very best baseball player in history who is not in the Hall of Fame?
I doubt that Trouppe is the best player outside the BBFHOF.
7. Are most players who have comparable statistics in the Hall of Fame?
Baseballthinkfactory’s MLEs credit Trouppe with 260+ career win shares and 113 in his best five consecutive seasons. They credit him with 84 win shares in his best three seasons. Dr. Chaleeko knocked down the figures for 1938 and 1946 on the grounds that Trouppe wouldn’t have caught as much in the major leagues as a linear translation would indicate. Since his five-year peak lasted from 1939 to 1943, the adjustments don’t affect that mark.
The adjustments would lower Trouppe’s best three seasons from 84 to 79, however. On the other hand, in 1946, Trouppe was playing in Negro League games, and they counted in the standings for his team. Furthermore, the BTF people admit that their MLEs, while good for career value and five-year consecutive peaks, do understate the value of a player’s best three seasons, as they flatten out the peaks and valleys in individual seasons. For this reasons, I’ll use the unadjusted 84 figure here.
Comparable career win shares, C: Mickey Cochrane 275, Bill Freehan 267, TROUPPE 260+, Lance Parrish 248, and Wally Schang 245. From 1933 to 1936, Trouppe played for a very good Bismarck team that held its own against established Black Baseball clubs. Due to a lack of data, there are no MLEs for those seasons, and credit for them would certainly push Trouppe above 275. Since every eligible MLB catcher with 267+ career win shares is in the BBFHOF, Trouppe exceeds the cutoff mark here.
Best three seasons: Bill Dickey 87, Ted Simmons 86, TROUPPE 84, Roger Bresnahan 83, Gene Tenace 83, Darren Daulton 83, Gabby Hartnett 80. Trouppe is in the gray area.
Best five consecutive seasons: Elston Howard 119, Roger Bresnahan 116, Gabby Hartnett 114, QUINCY TROUPPE 113, Mickey Tettleton 111, Thurman Munson 111, Carlton Fisk 106. Again, Trouppe lands in the gray area.
8. Do the player's numbers meet Hall of Fame standards?
The ink and HOF Standards tests aren’t applicable here. While Trouppe is not in Cooperstown, he is in the Hall of Merit.
9. Is there any evidence to suggest that the player was significantly better or worse than is suggested by his statistics?
Between 1933 and 1936, Trouppe was playing high-level ball with an independent Bismarck team, but statistics from that period are limited.
10. Is he the best player at his position who is eligible for the Hall of Fame?
I believe that Trouppe is the best eligible catcher outside the BBFHOF. He has the lead in career value, and is in the gray area in the peak measures.
11. How many MVP-type seasons did he have? Did he ever win an MVP award? If not, how many times was he close?
Before the playing time adjustment was made, Trouppe was credited with 31 win shares in 1946. That would have been Trouppe’s only season with 30+ win shares, according to the MLEs.
12. How many All-Star-type seasons did he have? How many All-Star games did he play in? Did most of the players who played in this many All-Star games go into the Hall of Fame?
Trouppe was named to five teams for the East-West game, and probably would have been on several more had it not been for all his years in Mexico. Trouppe has seven seasons that come out to 20+ win shares, and that is the lower limit for post-1920 catchers. He might have had another one or two with Bismarck, but we don’t have data for those years.
13. If this man were the best player on his team, would it be likely that the team could win the pennant?
At his best, yes.
14. What impact did the player have on baseball history? Was he responsible for any rule changes? Did he introduce any new equipment? Did he change the game in any way?
Not that I know of.
15. Did the player uphold the standards of sportsmanship and character that the Hall of Fame, in its written guidelines, instructs us to consider?
As far as I can tell, yes.
CONCLUSION: Trouppe really did come along twenty years too soon. The fact that he played for so many teams, all for short periods of time, kept him from being associated with any one club, and that hurt him when Negro League players were finally recognized. It didn’t help that several of those teams were outside the organized Negro Leagues (Bismarck, the Mexican League teams). Also, Josh Gibson was, by far, the best catcher in baseball during Trouppe’s peak.
However, the statistical analysis at baseballthinkfactory has cleared away a lot of the screens standing between us and Trouppe. Trouppe’s peak puts him in the gray area for the BBFHOF, and his total career value puts him in the “admit-me” realm. He also had seven documented seasons with 20+ win shares, which seems to be the real cut-off line for catchers (Hartnett had seven such seasons, and, as of February 2008, Ivan Rodriguez also has seven). Trouppe’s record as a catcher makes him deserving of the BBFHOF.
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
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Caylor returns
Contributors
1. Vin Scully
2. Bob Ferguson
3. Gus Greenlee
4. Tim Murnane
5. O.P. Caylor
Registered User
Players:
1. Jimmy Wynn
2. Reggie Smith
3. Roger Bresnahan
4. Jimmy Sheckard
5. Joe Torre
6. Hughie Jennings
7. Luis Tiant Jr.
8. Sal Bando
9. Cal McVey
10. Perucho Cepeda
11.Rabbit Maranville
12. Urban Shocker
Contributors:
1. Phil Rizzuto
2. Bob Ferguson
3. O.P. Caylor
4. Gus Greenlee
5. Al Munro Elias
Out of the newly eligible, Dave Concepcion and Steve Garvey are good enough to join my queue, but not strong enough to make it onto my ballot.
I did some reshuffling to work some pitchers into my ballot. Bob Elliott is back in my player queue. Luis Tiant Jr. and Urban Shocker join my ballot with some minor rank changes taking place. On the contributor's side, Harry Caray joins my queue with Gus Greenlee and Al Munro Elias taking slots 4 and 5 and the 3 other holdovers moving up a lot each. Iso Abe, Harry Caray, Happy Chandler, Jocko Conlan, Candy Cummings, Bud Fowler, Vic Harris, Gil Hodges, Ring Lardner, Billy Martin, Shigeru Mizuhara, Lefty O'Doul, Red Schoendienst and Vin Scully are all being strongly considered at this point.
In my consideration set on the players side are Luis Aparicio, Dave Bancroft, Jake Beckley, Chief Bender, Wally Berger, Max Bishop, Bobby Bonds, Bob Boone, Harry Brecheen, Willard Brown, Pete Browning, Lou Brock, Orlando Cepeda, Cupid Childs, Dave Concepcion, Leon Day, Bill Dinneen, Hugh Duffy, Bill Freehan, Steve Garvey, Burleigh Grimes, Dummy Hoy, Catfish Hunter, Charley Jones, Fielder Jones, Joe Kelley, Tommy Leach, Thurman Munson, Graig Nettles, Don Newcombe, Tony Perez, Lip Pike, Spotswood Poles, Jack Quinn, Sam Rice, Hardy Richardson, Eppa Rixey, Edd Roush, Wally Schang, Joe Sewell, Rusty Staub, Quincy Trouppe, George Van Haltren. Some may make my ballot, some may not depending on who we are looking at in terms of newcomers.
Last edited by jjpm74; 03-05-2011 at 10:21 AM.
Registered User
01. Luis Tiant
02. Eppa Rixey
03. Wally Berger
04. Jake Beckley
05. Jimmy Wynn
06. Burleigh Grimes
07. Willard Brown
08. Addie Joss
09. Koji Yamamoto
10. Perucho Cepeda
11. Quincy Trouppe
12. Urban Shocker
01. Frank Jobe
02. Vin Scully
03. Phil Rizzuto
04. Vic Harris
05. Gus Greenlee
2004 & 2007
Players:
1. Addie Joss
2. Wally Berger
3. Luis Tiant
4. Roger Bresnahan
5. Willard Brown
6. Joe Torre
7. Hughie Jennings
8. Edd Roush
9. Perucho Cepeda
10. Jimmy Wynn
11. Lou Brock
12. Luis Aparicio
Contributors:
1. Gus Greenlee
2. Phil Rizzuto
3. Vic Harris
4. Iso Abe
5. Vin Scully
Registered User
1. Hughie Jennings
2. Charlie Keller
3. Darrell Evans
4. Cal McVey
5. Joe Kelley
6. Willard Brown
7. Jimmy Wynn
8. Leroy Matlock
9. Lip Pike
10. Jimmy Sheckard
11. Bill Freehan
12. Hardy Richardson
1. Lou Brock
2. Joe Torre
3. Edd Roush
4. Frank Howard
5. Orlando Cepeda
6. Bill Freehan
7. Cupid Childs
8. Tony Perez
9. Dave Bancroft
10. Ray Dandridge
11. Tommy Leach
12. Darrell Evans
queing up now are: Pinson, Evers, Maranville, Reggie Smith and Tommy John to name a few.
1. O.P. Caylor
2. Red Smith
3. Billy Evans
4. Tommy McCarthy
5. Bob Ferguson
a posse ad esse
Players
1. Willard Brown
2. Joe Torre
3. Addie Joss
4. Roger Bresnahan
5. Eppa Rixey
6. Edd Roush
7. Joe Sewell
8. Rollie Fingers
9. Luis Aparicio
10. Joe Kelley
11. Wally Berger
12. Bill Freehan
Three new names; two of them a long time coming, and one of the recent holdovers. Reggie Smith is next among position players. A group of seven pitchers are also trying to edge onto the ballot, though I suspect one of them (Luis Tiant) will be elected soon. As expected Ron Cey is the highest newcomer in the queue (#11 position player, just ahead of Sal Bando).
Contributors
1. Paul Krichell
2. Al Munro Elias
3. Billy Martin
4. Danny Murtaugh
5. Charlie Grimm
No surprises here as I stay true to form. I may hold off on Sy Berger if there is no one to champion his cause; there are plenty of names to take his place. I'm thinking Cal Hubbard.
September 16, 2012: The Losing Streak Ends
Bleed the Freak
1 Johnny Bench
2 Hughie Jennings
3 Joe Kelley
4 Charlie Keller
5 Dick Lundy
6 Darrell Evans
7 Jimmy Sheckard
8 Phil Rizzuto
9 Jimmy Wynn
10 Don Newcombe
11 Roger Bresnahan
12 Luis Tiant
Researcher/advocate/mod
I've also sent you a PM on this, but Bench has been elected. Your ballot is valid--but everyone moves up a spot and #12 is open. I prefer that the voter fix it his or her own way, and not leave an open spot. That said, this stuff happens, so not to worry about anything other than fixing it.Originally Posted by Jar of Flies
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
carpe baseball
Players
1. Luis Tiant
2. Joe Torre
3. Roger Bresnahan
4. Jimmy Wynn
5. Edd Roush
6. Darrell Evans
7. Willard Brown
8. Hughie Jennings
9. Reggie Smith
10. Joe Kelley
11. Perucho Cepeda
12. Charlie Keller
Contributors
1. Gus Greenlee
2. O.P. Caylor
3. Vic Harris
4. Bob Ferguson
5. Al Munro Elias
"When you have no basis for an argument, abuse the plaintiff." -- Cicero
OSHA-certified Moderator
1. Burleigh Grimes
2. Edd Roush
3. Addie Joss
4. Luis Aparicio
5. Lefty Gomez
6. Hughie Jennings
7. Roger Bresnahan
8. Luis Tiant
9. Joe Torre
10.Joe Kelley
11. Willard Brown
12. Eppa Rixey
Contributors
1. Billy Evans
2. Gus Greenlee
3. Happy Chandler
4. O.P. Caylor
5. Vic Harris
Tom Tresh George Kell Mark Fidrych Bob Feller
Ernie Harwell Soupy Sales Alex Chilton Sparky Anderson
Joe Nuxhall Gary Carter MCA Emanuel Steward
Sonny Elliot Dave Brubeck Earl Weaver Stan Musial
Jonathan Winters Neil Armstrong Roger Ebert Anthony Zahler
Ray Manzarek
Registered User
Players:
1. Addie Joss
2. Lou Brock
3. Jake Beckley
4. Edd Roush
5. Roger Bresnahan
6. Joe Kelley
7. Burleigh Grimes
8. Sam Rice
9. Luis Tiant
10. Tony Mullane
11. Willard Brown
12. Jimmy Sheckard
Contributors:
1. Happy Chandler
2. Harry Caray
3. Phil Rizzuto
4. Vin Scully
5. Paul Krichell
Researcher/advocate/mod
We have a quorum on both ballots.
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
We're down to two player ballots from the last election's voters, namely Paul Wendt and joggerdru. If one or both of them have not voted by Monday, I will follow up with them by PM. Next election promises to be rather interesting.
On the contributor side, we add:
Hemond , Roland
Tanner , Chuck
Williams , Dick
Ordinarily, I'd say Williams would be in excellent shape. That would ignore a critical fact--1994 is the year Buck O'Neill deserves to receive credit for both the opening of the Negro League Museum as well as his work in Ken Burns' baseball. That will vault him to #1 on my list. Williams will find a spot as well, so I'll have to bump at least one and possibly two guys to make room for them.
On the player side, I think the holdovers will have to wait. This is a loaded class coming in:
Baker , Dusty
Baylor , Don
Blue , Vida
Buckner , Bill
Dempsey , Rick
Fisk , Carlton
Garner , Phil
Grich , Bobby
Hargrove , Mike
Hrabosky , Al
Reuschel , Rick
Ryan , Nolan
Schmidt , Mike
Scott , George
Simmons , Ted
Thornton , Andre
There are five guys who will make my ballot from that list Schmidt, Ryan, Simmons, Grich and Fisk (not in that order). Fortunately, it looks like I'll have three openings, so only my last two additions will have to go on vacation for a bit.
Last edited by jalbright; 03-10-2011 at 01:54 PM.
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Registered User
1 Burleigh Grimes
2 Addie Joss
3 Luis Tiant
4 Eppa Rixey
5 Ed Roush
6 Rog Breshanan
7 Hughie Jennings
8 Joe Torre
9 Joe Kelley
10 Urban Schocker
11 Jim Wynn
12 Lou Brock
Registered User
Why are Addie Joss and Burleigh Grimes being pushed over Luis Tiant Jr. as the best 2 pitchers? Tiant blows Grimes away in career value and peak value and has a decided edge over Joss, who is possibly the most overhyped short career pitcher in terms of peak value, had no longevity, and Tiant was more important in terms of peak when looking at era and league quality.
Researcher/advocate/mod
It may seem that way from some of the recent ballots, but Tiant leads those two, though Joss is reasonably close. Joss only lead him by 1 point in the last election, but had fewer supporters. That gave Luis more opportunities to increase his score, and has pushed him ahead.
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
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