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Thread: Mike Piazza should had been 2000 NL MVP.

  1. #1

    Mike Piazza should have been 2000 NL MVP.

    Mike Piazza, who never won an MVP, should have gotten the award in 2000.

    His 2000:

    Batting average = .324
    Slugging % = .614
    Ops = 1.012 OPS
    Home-runs = 38
    Runs batted in = 113

    2000 MVP voting:

    1.) Jeff Kent SFG (392 total; 22 1st place votes)
    2.) Barry Bonds SFG (279 total; 6 1st place votes)
    3.) Mike Piazza NYM (271 total; 3 1st place votes)

    Piazza's numbers do not blow away Kent and Bonds', but Piazza was more valuable to the New York Mets - who finished 1 game behind the Braves for the division and went to the World Series.

    Look at the 2000 New York Mets.

    - Their outfield was Benny Agbayani, Jay Payton, and Derek Bell.
    - Robin Ventura batted .232, and he failed to duplicate or even come close to his amazing 1999 season.
    - Shortstop was filled by Mike Bordick, Rey Ordonez (batting sub-.200), and Melvin Mora.

    Without Piazza, the Mets barely win 85 games; with him, they were the NL champions.
    Last edited by redban; 07-10-2012 at 08:56 PM.

  2. #2
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    Piazza had a great year, and would have made a fine MVP, but it is unfair to say he carried the Mets by himself. Alfonso at second base had an outstanding, MVP type season himself (although it turned out to be a fluke season). That was a season in which there were MANY great MVP candidates, and I can name about 10 or 12 guys who would have made good choices...besides Kent, Bonds, and Piazza, there was Alfonso, Bagwell, Sheffield, Helton, Vlad, Edmonds, Giles, Alou,..the list goes on. Piazza was without a doubt MVP of the first half, but faded towards the end of the season if I recall correctly.

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    If there was a year where Mike Piazza deserved the MVP then it was 1997. In 2000, I think Todd Helton, Kent, Bonds, and several others were all more valuable than Piazza.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Red View Post
    If there was a year where Mike Piazza deserved the MVP then it was 1997. In 2000, I think Todd Helton, Kent, Bonds, and several others were all more valuable than Piazza.
    I don't know about 'more valuable', maybe 'as valuable'. Seems to me that there were quite a few guys who were all pretty much equal as hitters, with Piazza being the only catcher of the bunch. So, defense not included, Piazza was the most valuable. How much you penalize him for his defense pretty much decides how you stand on the MVP issue. Bonds was already juicing, so he can't really count, and Helton was a product of Coors. Piazza's road stats are superior to Helton's, and that's not even counting the position advantage. Put Mike in Colorado and he probably has numbers like a prime Babe Ruth.
    Last edited by willshad; 04-23-2011 at 04:30 PM.

  5. #5
    WAR for position players in 2000:
    Helton 8.8
    Bonds 8.7
    Kent 7.9
    A. Jones 7.9
    Edmonds: 6.8
    Alfonzo 6.7
    Sheffield 6.7
    Hidalgo 6.6
    Giles 6.4
    Sosa 5.8
    Abreu 5.8
    Griffey 5.8


    Piazza had 5.2. A big problem was that he only played in 136, caught 124, DHed 5 and pinch hit in 7.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by redban View Post
    Mike Piazza - the greatest player never to win MVP - should have gotten the NL MVP award in 2000.
    Piazza was indeed a great player, but the greatest never to win an MVP award? Eddie Mathews, Duke Snider, and Al Kaline for starters might disagree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigRon View Post
    Piazza was indeed a great player, but the greatest never to win an MVP award? Eddie Mathews, Duke Snider, and Al Kaline for starters might disagree.
    Poor Al Kaline... two of his three best seasons were 1961 and 1967. Even in his best season (1955), he wasn't the best player (Mantle was, though Berra was the MVP and Kaline was better than Berra).

  8. #8
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    The MVP voting during this time (1995-2000) was rather odd, as it appears that there were SO MANY good candidates each year that the voters really did not know how to handle it. They were more likely to vote for guy who had been around a while who had a career year, than a guy who was consistently great, and who put up years just as good every season. 'Second tier' players like Larkin, Caminiti, Walker, Vaughn Sosa, I-Rod,Jones, Giambi, and Kent all won MVPs in career seasons (well career years AT THAT TIME), while guys like Sheffield, Ramirez, Alomar, Piazza, Mcgwire, Bonds, Gwynn, Biggio, Belle, A-Rod, Bagwell, and Vlad were overlooked. perhaps they were taken for granted a bit, while the ones who snuck up and surprised people were given the hardware. It's almost like the voters were LOOKING for someone besides Bonds or Piazza, Griffey, or A-rod to give it to.
    Last edited by willshad; 04-23-2011 at 09:09 PM.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Red View Post
    If there was a year where Mike Piazza deserved the MVP then it was 1997. In 2000, I think Todd Helton, Kent, Bonds, and several others were all more valuable than Piazza.
    Piazza deserved the MVP more in 1996 than in 1997.

    The Dodgers made the playoffs and Caminiti admitted to using steroids that year.

    And Helton, Kent, and Bonds were not more valuable than Piazza. Take Piazza away from the Mets in 2000 and they don't make the post-season - let alone the World Series.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Red View Post
    If there was a year where Mike Piazza deserved the MVP then it was 1997. In 2000, I think Todd Helton, Kent, Bonds, and several others were all more valuable than Piazza.
    What's the argument for Helton? Rockies didn't make the playoffs, and Coors Field was still a bandbox.
    Last edited by redban; 04-23-2011 at 09:26 PM.

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    You think Piazza is responsible for the 9 wins it would take for the Mets to drop out of the wildcard in 2000? That's a long way to fall, especially when Todd Pratt actually had quite a decent year as the oft-playing backup.

    Even if you don't like Helton because his team missed the playoffs, there are still more valuable players on every playoff team, including Alfonzo for the Mets. Why does Piazza deserve it more than Alfonzo? Alfonzo hit nearly as well over 14 more games; about 100 more plate appearances and around 60 more at-bats. And he played better defense at another premium defensive position.
    Last edited by Scoops; 04-23-2011 at 09:48 PM.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by redban View Post
    What's the argument for Helton? Rockies didn't make the playoffs, and Coors Field was still a bandbox.
    Players have value even if the rest of their team isn't good, and Helton hit .353/.441/.633/1.074 on the road.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scoops View Post
    Players have value even if the rest of their team isn't good, and Helton hit .353/.441/.633/1.074 on the road.
    Piazza hit .377 .459 .701 1.160 on the road (no that is not a misprint.)
    He was a catcher, and Helton was a first baseman.
    His team made the playoffs, Helton's didn't.

    What is Helton's case over Piazza? That he handled first better than Piazza handled catcher? That he hit at Coors better than Piazza hit at Shea? Do you REALLY think that they were comparable as hitters? People don't realize just how much Piazza was killed by his home stadiums.
    Last edited by willshad; 04-23-2011 at 11:23 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by redban View Post
    Piazza deserved the MVP more in 1996 than in 1997.

    The Dodgers made the playoffs and Caminiti admitted to using steroids that year.

    And Helton, Kent, and Bonds were not more valuable than Piazza. Take Piazza away from the Mets in 2000 and they don't make the post-season - let alone the World Series.
    Actually I think 1995 was his year. I couldn't believe it when Larkin won, and Dante Bichette of all people finished second. What a joke. If you are the best hitter in the league from the catcher's spot, it better take a heck of a great season by someone else to be MVP over you. At least Walker has a legit monster season in 1997.

  15. #15
    Dusty Baker did a bad thing and told the press Kent was deserving of the award (over Bonds) - he was manager for both

    not only was there no basis for this based on real stats and on the field play, there was nothing intangible that Kent brought as a leader or teammate either

    it unduly affected some of the voters
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    Quote Originally Posted by willshad View Post
    Piazza hit .377 .459 .701 1.160 on the road (no that is not a misprint.)
    He was a catcher, and Helton was a first baseman.
    His team made the playoffs, Helton's didn't.

    What is Helton's case over Piazza? That he handled first better than Piazza handled catcher? That he hit at Coors better than Piazza hit at Shea? Do you REALLY think that they were comparable as hitters? People don't realize just how much Piazza was killed by his home stadiums.
    Well, Helton's defense was significantly better, even at a low-value position. I'm not passionate about Helton. I was just providing shorthand answers to his shorthand questions. But like several of us have said, if you don't like Helton, what about Bonds and Kent and Jones and Edmonds and Alfonzo? They all provided more value to their teams than Piazza. Except for Bonds, they all play high-value defensive positions - and they all played better defense. Their teams all made the playoffs. The Giants even played in a stadium that was even more of a pitcher's park than Shea.

    Once again: If I am not convinced Piazza was event he most valuable player on his own team, how is he the league MVP?

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    Agree. 95 should have been Piazza.

    Quote Originally Posted by willshad View Post
    Actually I think 1995 was his year. I couldn't believe it when Larkin won, and Dante Bichette of all people finished second. What a joke. If you are the best hitter in the league from the catcher's spot, it better take a heck of a great season by someone else to be MVP over you. At least Walker has a legit monster season in 1997.
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  18. #18
    Honestly, you can make an argument that Piazza should have won 3 in a row from 1995-1997.

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    I think if Piazza provided more in the defensive department, he would have been worthy of a handful of MVP's. Otherwise his low playing time hamstrings his value.

    I have to go with Helton in 2000 though. While he hit .391/.484/.758/1.242 at home he also hit .353/.441/.633/1.074 on the road.

    For perspective, only Bond's and Sheffield's total OPS's beat Helton's road OPS. He tied with Vladdy in that category. Everyone else is below him.

    He was also the best defensive first baseman that year, and played 160 games.
    Last edited by Bigfoot 88; 07-11-2012 at 10:03 AM.
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  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfoot 88 View Post
    I think if Piazza provided more in the defensive department, he would have been worthy of a handful of MVP's. Otherwise his low playing time hamstrings his value.

    I have to go with Helton in 2000 though. While he hit .391/.484/.758/1.242 at home he also hit .353/.441/.633/1.074

    For perspective, only Bond's and Sheffield's total OPS's beat Helton's road OPS. He tied with Vladdy in that category. Everyone else is below him.

    He was also the best defensive first baseman that year, and played 160 games.
    What hurt Helton was that his team wasn't in a pennant run. Rockies won just 82 games, good for 4th place and 15 games behind SF.

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    Quote Originally Posted by redban View Post
    What hurt Helton was that his team wasn't in a pennant run. Rockies won just 82 games, good for 4th place and 15 games behind SF.
    Exactly. In a year like that, with so many guys bunched close together, the winner has to come from a winning team. There has never been a season with so many players having MVP quality seasons..in both leagues really. Richard Hildago had a stat line of 44 122 .314 .391 .636. These are about the same numbers Frank Robinson had in his triple crown season.

    He finished TWENTIETH in the voting!!!!!

    Piazza was hurt by the fact that he finished poorly. At the all star break he was easy MVP. If he had switched his halves around, he would have won. Still, a catcher putting up a 200 OPS+ on the road is downright ridiculous.

    Part of the problem about Piazza may have been his uniqueness. People didn't know what to make of a catcher hitting that well, because it never happened before.

    Also, by this point, guys like Piazza, Bonds, and Bagwell were perhaps taken for granted a bit. Guys who had been around a while, but put up a 'career year' during this period seemed to win MVP each season...Larkin, Caminitti, Walker, Sosa, Chipper, Kent.
    Last edited by willshad; 07-11-2012 at 09:51 AM.

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