Top 50 Pitchers of All-Time v. 3.0: Pitchers #16-#20

[Matthew C.]

1. Walter Johnson
2. Greg Maddux
3. Roger Clemens
4. Lefty Grove
5. Cy Young
6. Pete Alexander
7. Tom Seaver
8. Randy Johnson
9. Satchel Paige
10.Christy Mathewson
11. Warren Spahn
12. Pedro Martinez
13. Kid Nichols
14. Bob Feller
15. Bob Gibson


Here we go...

16. Steve Carlton
17. Gaylord Perry
18. Phil Niekro
19. Robin Roberts
20. Fergie Jenkins

[leecemark]

16) Smokey Joe Williams
17) Steve Carlton
18) Sandy Koufax
19) Robin Roberts
20) Gaylord Perry

[yanks0714]

16) Whitey Ford
17) Juan Marichal
18) Robin Roberts
19) Steve Carlton
20) Carl Hubbell

[BigRon]

16. Steve Carlton- the greatest pitcher never to throw a pitch in the strike zone!
17. Phil Niekro
18. Gaylord Perry
19. Carl Hubbell
20. Robin Roberts

[nerfan]

Carlton
Perry
Niekro
Blyleven
Roberts

[DoubleX]

16) Steve Carlton
17) Sandy Koufax
18) Carl Hubbell
19) Mordecai Brown
20) Ed Walsh

[brett]

SJ Williams
Koufax
Carlton
Perry
Hubbell

I wanted to point out that Hubbell had a 12 year stretch with just under 3000 innings and a 140 OPS+. For his career I know he doesn't look as good compared to the 5000 IP guys, or any better than say Mussina, Smoltz, Brown, Schilling with higher LQ, but his first 10-12 years look much better to me. In a sense he may have lost as much from modern training as he gained from lower LQ. Marichal has somewhat of a similar career path too, with a couple late years making him look worse. Had Hubbell pitched a little earlier he probably would have pitched 25% more innings too.

[Blackout]

Whitey Ford
3 Finger Brown
Rube Waddell
Juan Marichal
Johan Santana

[AstrosFan]

Getting tougher. Lot of pitchers I could have put here. I'll never feel comfortable with any list.

Steve Carlton
Gaylord Perry
Phil Niekro
Robin Roberts
Bert Blyleven

[Bigfoot 88]

16-Sandy Koufax
17-Steve Carlton
18-Carl Hubbell
19-Gaylord Perry
20-Ed Walsh

This is getting tougher.....I like it

[Matthew C.]

This is getting tougher.....I like it

Agreed!!!!

[PVNICK]

Carlton
Clarkson
Roberts
Keefe
Marichal: w/o starting a thousand post thread derailer, it kills me that he will be so so far below Gibson

Hubbell, Perry, Niekro, Ryan, Ford, maybe Plank, Koufax and Smokey Joe Williams next round

[BigRon]

Marichal: w/o starting a thousand post thread derailer, it kills me that he will be so so far below Gibson

If Marichal had not suffered the freak arm injury after the 1969 season it is very likely his career would have equalled or exceeded Gibson's. But, he got hurt- unfortunately it's happened to many many players- great, good, average, below average. All those careers have been changed.

I promise this is the only commment I'll make about this on this thread.

[Matthew C.]

It is interesting that all of the big inning, scattered peak, "mediocre" w-l% guys (Carlton, Niekro, Perry, Ryan, Blyleven) had WPA "Clutch" scores of -3 (Carlton) to -7(Ryan) over their careers, which is at the low end for long-careered pitchers. In other words, they were all about 30-70 runs worse in close games than in blowouts.

Not a huge issue, but it could be a tiebreaker and it does explain a little bit why their W-L% were never as good as expected. Poor run support and high decision rates are not the only culprits.

Of course the other issue is how much variation in WPA Clutch is luck and how much is skill? How much would we reward/deduct the pitcher for? There is some real skill there due to approach, etc. How much is the tricky part. Or do we even care about skill vs. luck and just reward the pitcher for what really happened on the field?

[Matthew C.]

Marichal: w/o starting a thousand post thread derailer, it kills me that he will be so so far below Gibson

I don't think he will be that far behind..maybe 5-6 spots. Not much at all considering how close the pitchers are all to each other after you get past the top 10-11 guys who are clealy the cream of the crop to most of us.

[DoubleX]

This may skew the results somewhat, but I probably won't be voting for any pitcher that had the majority of his career before the 1890s. The game was just too different before that point, and was quickly evolving, especially when it came to pitching rules, usage, and styles. I don't mean to disrespect the likes of Keefe, Clarkson, and Radbourn, but I just don't feel comfortable lumping them in with later pitchers. Guys like Nichols, Young, and possibly Rusie, will probably reflect the earliest pitchers I'll be voting for.

[BigRon]

This may skew the results somewhat, but I probably won't be voting for any pitcher that had the majority of his career before the 1890s. The game was just too different before that point, and was quickly evolving, especially when it came to pitching rules, usage, and styles. I don't mean to disrespect the likes of Keefe, Clarkson, and Radbourn, but I just don't feel comfortable lumping them in with later pitchers. Guys like Nichols, Young, and possibly Rusie, will probably reflect the earliest pitchers I'll be voting for.

I'll be doing the same thing, plus my not voting on Negro League pitchers. Sorry if this screws things up, but my feelings are the same as DoubleX's.

[Matthew C.]

I'll be doing the same thing, plus my not voting on Negro League pitchers. Sorry if this screws things up, but my feelings are the same as DoubleX's.

From the looks of it, only 1/11 selected either of them so far; so nothing being skewed regardless. I don't see any of those guys getting picked earlier than the 25-30 round - there are 10 or so names that we are all throwing around. Plus, the results cannot be "screwed" up based on my initial rules of the game anyway. Well, unless someone selects bogus picks just to screw everything up - which won't happen.

Rules: "Consider whatever you want...PEDs, pitcher offense, LQ, postseason..whatever you want." I am only interested in an accurate depiction of BBF opinion. I don't want anybody selecting anyone they do not feel should be there. That would skew the results.

[Matthew C.]

We have about 11 votes with one more day to go! Lets try to get up to 15!

[leecemark]

--I'll probably vote for Clarkson and Rusie in the 30s. The only earlier guy I might vote for is Al Spaulding and we'd probably have to get close to 50 before he'd have a shot at my ballot. It might be awhile before nay Negro League pitcher other than Paige and Williams makes my ballot too.

[Matthew C.]

--I'll probably vote for Clarkson and Rusie in the 30s. The only earlier guy I might vote for is Al Spaulding and we'd probably have to get close to 50 before he'd have a shot at my ballot. It might be awhile before nay Negro League pitcher other than Paige and Williams makes my ballot too.

I find it hard to clearly distinguish Keefe from Clarkson - so when I vote for them (probably in the late 20's/early 30's) they will be very close.

[Matthew C.]

Results:

16. Steve Carlton (43 pts)
17. Gaylord Perry (20 pts)
18. Sandy Koufax (16)
19. Robin Roberts (14)
20. Phil Niekro (13 pts)

Others receiving votes:

Carl Hubbell (10)
SJ Williams (10)
Whitey Ford (10)
Juan Marichal (7)
M. Brown (6)
John Clarkson (4)
Bert Blyleven (3)
Rube Waddell (3)
Tim Keefe (2)
Ed Walsh (1)
Johan Santana (1)