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Thread: 1998 Best of Baseball election thread

  1. #1
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    1998 Best of Baseball election thread

    This is our sixty-third election in this project. The entire rules follow.

    This election will end at 11:59:59 PM EDT on May 20, 2011

    The prior election, and the ballots of the 1997 voters, are in this thread
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  2. #2
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    Rules

    1) All BBF users in good standing may participate. However, if there is more than one vote being cast from any one computer or IP, it must be cleared in advance. Should there be unannounced multiple votes from the same IP, I will investigate the circumstances, and all user names involved may be barred from this project as a result, and all but one of the multiple usernames permanently banned from the site. I only anticipate exceptions for family members living in the same home, but I will entertain requests on other bases. Please note that I and the other mods who participate in the project have the capability of determining the IP from which posts come, and I for one intend to monitor same. I have had to deal with a single user manipulating a project with multiple votes, and I don't intend to repeat the experience.

    2) Elections will require a 10 voter quorum. If we do not get ten voters and there are candidate(s) who would be elected no matter what the voters needed to make a quorum did, those candidate(s) will be inducted. Otherwise, no one will be inducted. Further, if we fail to elect a full complement of candidates for the ballot in question in two of any four consecutive elections, the portion(s) of the project failing to meet the election requirement will end. If, for instance, we're doing fine on the player end but not the contributor end, I would drop the contributor end under this rule.

    3) We will start in 1936, just as Cooperstown did. For the first election (1936), voters will rank their top 20, taking 10. After that we will go to having voters rank their top 12 players. Points awarded 12-11-10, etc. We will take the top five through 1940, then top three players per year elected until 2010, then two per year. If a voter does not number his selections, I will try to get him/her to do so. If they do not do so before the end of the election period, I may in my sole discretion invalidate the ballot. I have included this provision in order to ease the process of recording the votes. On another point, I know, the 1936 backlog is huge--but that was a historical issue they couldn't avoid, so neither will we.

    4) We will also have a contributor ballot, which will elect one a year through 1985, then one every three (3) years. Contributors will be ranked 1 through 5, with points awarded 5-4-3-2-1. Voters may choose to participate in either one of the ballots or both.

    5) It is permissible to vote for a candidate on both the contributor and player lists.

    6) You are allowed to change your ballot at any time the voting is open. However, if you change your ballot, you've got to notify me (jalbright) by PM or by a new post in the voting thread, or the changes likely will not be registered.

    7) Players are eligible at the later of age 45 or the first year thereafter in which the player does not play. If the birthdate is not known, add five years to the first time the player misses a season and has less than 10 games the next season. There is an exception for early death, in which case the year of death plus two will be used if that yields an earlier date.

    8) Contributors become eligible at age 65 or in the year of death plus two. whichever comes first.

    9) Each election will run for approximately two weeks unless expressly altered by the project manager, contributors and players done simultaneously.

    10) No one is excluded from being a candidate, regardless of the league they played in, except those elected in either the contributor or player ballots. At that point, they are removed from further consideration. If there are players who returned to the Negro Leagues or Japan after going to the majors, the departure from the majors will be their career end date for purposes of this project.

    11) The standard for including a player on one's ballot is that the player must in the voter's opinion be among the very best eligible players (preferably the number voted on, but if a voter wishes to support someone they feel is 15th in a 12 person ballot instead of one of the top 12, it's too close for anyone to reasonably object. On the other hand, supporting the 25th best eligible candidate on a 12 person ballot is probably beyond the pale). I reserve the power to invalidate ballots which I do not feel are a reasonably knowledgeable, good faith effort to rank the players. One issue I am quite concerned about is that I do not want to see what clearly appear to be attempts to manipulate the ballot so as to elect a candidate. In isolation, I probably could live with this, but if it became a widely used tactic, the project would devolve into something I have no desire to be associated with. Moreover, I think that this position asks everyone else to cast legitimate votes so that you can manipulate the system to favor your pet candidates. I cannot accept that, as it strikes me as unfair to other voters. For example, you can't expect to favor even a legitimate HOF candidate like Bill Dahlen over Babe Ruth to get Dahlen elected without being asked to provide a reasonable justification for ranking Dahlen over Ruth. If you can provide a reasonable justification in that scenario, the ballot will stand. If not, you will be asked to make a change. I realize voters will sometimes have idiosyncratic choices, and I try to allow for that. However, a clear flouting of a consensus is apt to be met with a request that the ballot be justified pursuant to this rule. Certainly, a reasonable justification does not indicate in essence simply that you want Dahlen elected. Furthermore, if I invalidate multiple ballots by the same individual as failing to meet this rule, that individual will forever lose the right to have his/her ballots counted. Voters are encouraged to consider character, sportsmanship, and compliance with the rules and spirit of baseball in their rankings of players.

    12) I will post lists of eligible players and contributors before each election. If you have a question about the eligibility of a candidate, please ask. I will provide a list of future eligibility dates as well.

    13) My eligibility lists come from all persons in the BBF HOF, BBTF Hall of Merit, and Cooperstown, plus all persons getting a vote in a BBF HOF election in the past year and a half or in a BBWAA election. This is a relatively comprehensive list, and thus I must request that if you want another candidate included, you provide some justification for why said candidate is worthy of getting a vote in this project. The main area I think this might come into play is if a voter supports a person who was eligible for the final selections from the recent pre WWII or Negro League committees but not on my master list. That fact alone would serve as ample justification for putting said candidate on the list. We may learn more about Cuban ball or what have you and thus include others after a case is made for them, however. The contributor list is undoubtedly not as comprehensive, and this fact will be taken into consideration. For players, any request for a multiple time all-star in the all-star era will be approved. Players of that quality will generally be approved without much ado. However, when a player lacks that kind of qualification, I will likely ask for you to get a second from among our voters via a post in the current election thread. When in doubt, I will also require a second for suggested contributors. If a second is forthcoming, the player will be added. If not, the request will be rejected. I want to limit requests and seconds to players or contributors you actually might vote for.

    14) Other than the sportsmanship and character issues, players are to be evaluated solely upon their play. I would prefer that if a player is qualified by his play standing alone that he be elected on that basis. However, a candidate may only be elected either as a contributor or a player, but not both. Contributors are the area where the entire body of work during his career in the sport, including his play, managing, scouting, executive, writing, broadcasting or other work in the sport is relevant. Contributors are to be ranked based on who the voter thinks is most worthy of induction into the Contributor group in this project.

    15) Any ballot with two (2) or more spots unfilled with eligible candidates is invalid. In the event of the listing of ineligible names, I will try to notify the voter so that he/she can correct the ballot before the end of the voting period. If the change is made timely, it will count. If not, and there are two or more invalid names, the ballot will not be considered valid. If there is only one, the ineligible name will be stricken and all names after it on the affected ballot will be moved up one spot.

    16) Any players listed beyond the 12th place for any ballot but the first (in which case it is 20th place) will be ignored. If more than one person is listed as tied for the last available place and the ballot is oversize, all names will be dropped, which may lead to the invalidation of the ballot.

    17) Ties are not permitted in ballot listings. I reserve the right to invalidate ballots for use of ties in the rankings, be it within a single ballot or over the course of several ballots. If the voter does not correct such a listing voluntarily, except in the case of an oversize ballot tie for the last eligible place, if do not invalidate the ballot, I will choose the placement of the two "tied" candidates, generally preferring the candidate preferred by the other voters.

    18) For any ties between candidates straddling the in/out line of selections, the first thing considered is the ranking of the candidates by the ballots cast. If there are more than two candidates tied, use a 2-1-0 or whatever is appropriate for the number of players tied system. If a voter does not list a candidate, he receives zero points in the tiebreaker procedure. Once one person separates from the tied group, restart with the remaining candidates until there are only as many candidates as the rules call for being elected. If they remain tied after this process, the candidate with the most votes received wins. If it is still tied after that, those with the most #1 votes as the next step, then the most #2 votes and so on to see if that breaks the tie. If not, we will induct all candidates who remain tied at that point.

    19) One thing we're going to have to be aware of is the timeline in the case of at least a few contributors. Two which jump out at me are Buck O'Neill, 1976, and Branch Rickey, 1946. I intend to eventually vote for both men, but in 1946, Jackie Robinson was still in Montreal. Really, Branch should wait until at least 1947 after Jackie's success in the majors to get credit for that move. If you think Rickey belongs in the top 5 in 1946 without his role in breaking the color line, that's fine--but he shouldn't get credit for that important success until it actually happened. Buck O'Neill did some important things up until 1976, but after that he was in Ken Burns' Baseball and he was instrumental in the establishment of the Negro Leagues Hall of Fame (both occurred in or around 1994). If you think he belongs based on accomplishments before those two things, that's perfectly acceptable, but please don't credit him with them before they actually happened.

    20) I will maintain a thread of the project's history and rules which will provide a listing of all elected candidates.

    21) Feel free to ask questions by either sending jalbright a PM, or by posting a question in voting thread
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  3. #3
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    The players who become eligible in 1998 are:
    Code:
    Brett , George
    Candelaria , John
    Hernandez , Keith
    Parrish , Larry
    Quisenberry , Dan
    Rice , Jim
    Sutter , Bruce
    There are no new contributors to add to the list.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  4. #4
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    The 1997 player candidates who were not elected had these results in the that election:
    Code:
    Player………………	votes	pts
    Joss , Addie	6	63
    Roush , Edd 	6	58
    Keller , C	6	45
    Brock, Lou	5	39
    Evans, Dwight	5	37
    Rixey , Eppa	4	36
    Cepeda, Perucho	5	33
    Grimes , B	3	31
    Reuschel, Rick	5	28
    Aparicio, Luis	5	26
    Beckley , Jake	4	25
    Koyama, Masaaki	5	23
    Sheckard , J	5	23
    Berger , Wally	3	22
    Freehan, Bill	5	21
    Evans, Darrell	3	20
    Smith, Reggie	4	18
    Bando, Sal	3	17
    McVey , Cal	2	17
    Childs , Cupid	2	13
    Shocker, Urban	3	13
    Howard, Frank	1	9
    Cepeda, Orlando	1	8
    Gomez, Lefty	1	8
    Lundy , Dick	1	8
    Sewell , Joe	1	8
    Fingers, Rollie	1	7
    Dandridge, Ray	3	6
    Trouppe, Quincy	2	6
    Bancroft , Dave	1	5
    Maranville , R	1	5
    Matlock, Leroy	1	5
    Mullane , Tony	1	5
    Leach , Tommy	1	4
    Perez, Tony	2	4
    Pierce, Billy	3	4
    Pike , Lip	1	4
    Duffy , Hugh	2	3
    Newcombe, Don	1	3
    Schang, Wally	1	3
    Evers , Johnny	1	1
    Jones , Charley	1	1
    Richardson , H	1	1
    The 1997 contributor candidates who were not elected had these results in the that election
    Code:
    Contributor………	votes	pts
    Harris, Vic	6	19
    Caylor , O. P.	4	17
    Scully, Vin	6	14
    Evans, Billy	4	12
    Abe, Iso	4	8
    Ferguson, Bob	3	8
    Elias, Al Munro	2	7
    Williams, Dick	4	7
    Chandler, Happy	1	5
    Jobe, Frank	1	5
    Caray, Harry	1	4
    Martin, Billy	1	4
    Pesky , Johnny	1	4
    Smith, Red	1	4
    McCarthy, Tommy	1	2
    Harvey, Doug	1	1
    O'Doul, Lefty	1	1
    I strongly suggest that you pay attention to this list, as the leaders of the holdovers are likely to join any strong newcomer candidates as the leaders for winning induction.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  5. #5
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    Members of the Best of Baseball Hall. Last election's inductees are in red.

    Players
    Code:
    Hank Aaron
    Pete Alexander
    Dick Allen
    Cap Anson
    Luke Appling
    Richie Ashburn
    Earl Averill
    Frank Baker
    Ernie Banks
    Ross Barnes
    John Beckwith
    Cool Papa Bell
    Johnny Bench
    Charlie Bennett
    Yogi Berra
    Akira Bessho
    Bert Blyleven
    Lou Boudreau
    Ken Boyer
    Roger Bresnahan
    Dan Brouthers
    Mordecai Brown
    Ray Brown
    Willard Brown
    Jim Bunning
    Jesse Burkett
    Roy Campanella
    Rod Carew
    Max Carey
    Steve Carlton
    Bob Caruthers
    Oscar Charleston
    Fred Clarke
    John Clarkson
    Roberto Clemente
    Ty Cobb
    Mickey Cochrane
    Eddie Collins
    Jimmy Collins
    Roger Connor
    Stan Coveleski
    Sam Crawford
    Joe Cronin
    Bill Dahlen
    George Davis
    Dizzy Dean
    Ed Delahanty
    Bill Dickey
    Martin Dihigo
    Joe DiMaggio
    Larry Doby
    Bobby Doerr
    Don Drysdale
    Buck Ewing
    Red Faber
    Bob Feller
    Wes Ferrell
    Carlton Fisk
    Elmer Flick
    Whitey Ford
    Willie Foster
    Nellie Fox
    Jimmie Foxx
    Frankie Frisch
    Pud Galvin
    Lou Gehrig
    Charlie Gehringer
    Bob Gibson
    Josh Gibson
    Jack Glasscock
    Joe Gordon
    George Gore
    Goose Goslin
    Goose Gossage
    Frank Grant
    Hank Greenberg
    Bobby Grich
    Heinie Groh
    Lefty Grove
    Stan Hack
    Billy Hamilton
    Isao Harimoto
    Gabby Hartnett
    Harry Heilmann
    Billy Herman
    Pete Hill
    Paul Hines
    Rogers Hornsby
    Carl Hubbell
    Kazuhisa Inao
    Monte Irvin
    Joe Jackson
    Reggie Jackson
    Ferguson Jenkins
    Hughie Jennings
    Grant "Home Run"Johnson
    Walter Johnson
    Al Kaline
    Masaichi Kaneda
    Tim Keefe
    Willie Keeler
    Joe Kelley
    King Kelly
    Harmon Killebrew
    Ralph Kiner
    Sandy Koufax
    Nap LaJoie
    Bob Lemon
    Buck Leonard
    Pop Lloyd
    Ted Lyons
    Biz Mackey
    Sherry Magee
    Mickey Mantle
    Juan Marichal
    Eddie Mathews
    Christy Mathewson
    Willie Mays
    Willie McCovey
    Joe McGinnity
    Bid McPhee
    Joe Medwick
    Jose Mendez
    Minnie Minoso
    Johnny Mize
    Dobie Moore
    Joe Morgan
    Stan Musial
    Shigeo Nagashima
    Hal Newhouser
    Kid Nichols
    Phil Niekro
    Katsuya Nomura
    Sadaharu Oh
    Alejandro Oms
    Jim O'Rourke
    Mel Ott
    Satchel Paige
    Jim Palmer
    Gaylord Perry
    Eddie Plank
    Charlie Radbourn
    Pee Wee Reese
    Robin Roberts
    Brooks Robinson
    Frank Robinson
    Jackie Robinson
    Bullet Joe Rogan
    Pete Rose
    Red Ruffing
    Amos Rusie
    Babe Ruth
    Nolan Ryan
    Ron Santo
    Louis Santop
    Mike Schmidt
    Tom Seaver
    Al Simmons
    Ted Simmons
    George Sisler
    Enos Slaughter
    Hilton Smith
    Duke Snider
    Warren Spahn
    Tris Speaker
    Victor Starffin
    Willie Stargell
    Joe Start
    Turkey Stearnes
    Harry Stovey
    Mule Suttles
    Don Sutton
    Ezra Sutton
    Bill Terry
    Sam Thompson
    Luis Tiant
    Joe Torre
    Cristobal Torriente
    Pie Traynor
    Dazzy Vance
    Arky Vaughan
    Rube Waddell
    Honus Wagner
    Bobby Wallace
    Ed Walsh
    Paul Waner
    John M. Ward
    Willie Wells
    Zack Wheat
    Deacon White
    Hoyt Wilhelm
    Billy Williams
    Smoky Joe Williams
    Ted Williams
    Jud Wilson
    Dave Winfield
    George Wright
    Early Wynn
    Jimmy Wynn
    Carl Yastrzemski
    Cy Young
    Contributors
    Code:
    Doc Adams
    Mel Allen
    Walter Alston
    Red Barber
    Ed Barrow
    Buzzue Bavasi
    Ed Bolden
    Alexander Cartwright
    Henry Chadwick
    Frank Chance
    Charlie Commiskey
    Charles Conlon
    Tom Connolly
    Jim Creighton
    Jack Dunn
    Leo Durocher
    Rube Foster
    Ford Frick
    Gus Greenlee
    Clark Griffith
    Ned Hanlon
    Whitey Herzog
    William Hulbert
    Miller Huggins
    Ban Johnson
    Tetsuharu Kawakami
    Bill Klem
    Kenesaw Landis
    Tommy Lasorda
    Al Lopez
    Connie Mack
    Larry MacPhail
    Joe McCarthy
    John McGraw
    Bill McKechnie
    Marvin Miller
    Walter O'Malley
    Buck O'Neill
    Dickey Pearce
    Cum Posey
    A. J. Reach
    Francis Richter
    Branch Rickey
    Phil Rizzuto
    Jacob Ruppert
    Frank Selee
    Ben Shibe
    Matsutaro Shoriki
    Billy Southworth
    Al Spalding
    Alfred Spink
    J. G. T. Spink
    Casey Stengel
    C. I. Taylor
    Kazuto Tsuruoka
    Bill Veeck
    Earl Weaver
    George Weiss
    Sol White
    J. L. Wilkinson
    Harry Wright
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  6. #6
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    The complete list of eligible players:
    Code:
    Adams , Babe
    Adams , Bobby
    Adams , Sparky
    Allen , Johnny
    Alou , Jesus
    Alou , Matty
    Alou, Felipe
    Altrock , Nick
    Aparicio, Luis
    Archer , Jimmy
    Arlett , Buzz
    Austin , Jimmy
    Avila, Bobby
    Bailey , Bob 
    Baker , Dusty
    Bancroft , Dave
    Bando , Sal
    Barry , Jack
    Bartell , Dick
    Battin , Joe
    Bauer , Hank
    Baylor , Don
    Beaumont , Ginger
    Beckert, Glenn
    Beckley , Jake
    Belanger , Mark
    Bell , Buddy
    Bender , Chief
    Benton , Larry
    Berg , Moe
    Bergen , Marty
    Berger , Wally
    Berry , Charlie
    Bibby , Jim 
    Bigbee , Carson
    Billingham , Jack
    Bishop , Max
    Blackwell , Ewell
    Blades , Ray
    Blair , Paul
    Blass , Steve
    Blue , Lu
    Blue , Vida
    Bluege , Ossie
    Blyleven , Bert
    Bodie , Ping
    Boley , Joe
    Bond , Tommy
    Bonds , Bobby
    Boone, Bob
    Bottomley , Jim
    Bowa , Larry
    Boyer , Clete
    Bradley , Bill
    Brecheen , Harry
    Breitenstein , Ted
    Brett , George
    Brewer , Jim 
    Bridges , Tommy
    Brock, Lou
    Browning , Pete
    Bruton, Bill
    Buckner , Bill
    Burdette , Lew
    Burgess , Smoky  
    Burns , George J.
    Burroughs , Jeff
    Bush  , Joe
    Bush , Donie
    Bush , Guy
    Cadore , Leon
    Camilli , Dolph
    Camnitz , Howie
    Campaneris , Bert
    Campbell , Bill
    Candelaria , John
    Cardenal , Jose
    Cardenas , Leo 
    Carrasquel. Chico 
    Carrigan , Bill
    Carroll, Clay
    Case , George
    Cash , Dave
    Cash, Norm
    Cavaretta , Phil
    Cedeno , Cesar
    Cepeda , Orlando
    Cepeda , Perucho
    Cey , Ron
    Chandler , Spud
    Chapman , Ben
    Chapman , Ray
    Chapman , Sam
    Chase , Hal
    Chesbro , Jack
    Childs , Cupid
    Cicotte , Eddie
    Cissell , Bill
    Clark , Watty
    Clarkson , Bus
    Clift, Harlond
    Coakley , Andy
    Colavito, Rocky
    Collins , Shano
    Combs , Earle
    Concepcion , Dave
    Conroy , Wid
    Coombs , Jack
    Cooper , Andy
    Cooper , Mort
    Cooper , Walker
    Cooper , Wilbur
    Courtney , Clint
    Cox , Billy
    Crandall , Doc
    Crandall, Del
    Cravath , Gavvy
    Criger , Lou
    Critz , Hughie
    Cross , Lave
    Crowder , Al 
    Cruise , Walt
    Cruz , Jose
    Cuccinello , Tony
    Cummings , Candy
    Cuyler , Kiki
    Dandridge , Ray
    Danning , Harry
    Dark , Alvin
    Daubert , Jake
    Davis , Curt
    Davis , Harry
    Davis , Spud
    Day , Leon
    DeCinces, Doug
    Dempsey , Rick
    Dent , Bucky
    Derringer , Paul
    DiMaggio , Dom
    Dinneen , Bill
    Doak , Bill
    Donaldson, John
    Donlin , Mike
    Donovan , Bill
    Dooin , Red
    Downing, Bryan
    Doyle , Jack 
    Doyle , Larry
    Dropo , Walt
    Duffy , Hugh
    Dugan , Joe
    Dunlap , Fred
    Dykes , Jimmy
    Earnshaw , George
    Easter, Luke
    Edwards , Hank
    Ehmke , Howard
    Elberfeld , Kid
    Elliott , Bob
    Elliott , Jumbo
    Ellis , Dock
    Enatsu , Yutaka
    Ennis, Del
    Ens , Jewel
    Erskine , Carl
    Evans , Darrell
    Evans , Dwight
    Evers , Johnny
    Face, Roy
    Fairly , Ron
    Falkenberg , Cy
    Ferrell , Rick
    Fingers , Rollie
    Fitzsimmons , Freddie
    Flanagan , Mike
    Fletcher , Art
    Flood , Curt
    Fonseca , Lew
    Forsch, Bob
    Foster , Eddie
    Foster , George
    Fraser , Chick
    Freehan, Bill
    Fregosi , Jim
    Furillo , Carl
    Galan , Augie
    Garner , Phil
    Garver, Ned
    Garvey , Steve
    Gelbert , Charlie
    Gleason , Kid
    Gomez , Lefty
    Gonzalez , Mike
    Gossage , Goose
    Gowdy , Hank
    Grant , Eddie
    Grantham , George
    Griffey, Sr, Ken
    Grimes , Burleigh
    Grimm , Charlie
    Grissom , Marv
    Groat, Dick
    Gromek , Steve
    Grove , Orval
    Guidry, Ron
    Gustine , Frank
    Haas , Mule
    Haddix, Harvey
    Hafey , Chick
    Hahn , Noodles
    Haines , Jesse
    Hallahan , Bill
    Harder , Mel
    Hargrave , Bubbles
    Hargrove , Mike
    Harrah , Toby
    Harrelson , Bud
    Harris , Bucky
    Harris , Vic
    Hatton , Grady
    Hearn , Jim 
    Hebner , Richie
    Hegan , Jim
    Helms, Tommy
    Hemus , Solly
    Henrich , Tommy
    Herman , Babe
    Hernandez , Keith
    Herzog , Buck 
    Hickman , Jim
    Higgins , Mike
    Hiller , John
    Hinchman , Bill
    Hodges, Gil
    Holmes , Tommy
    Holtzman , Ken
    Hooper , Harry
    Hooton, Burt
    Horton , Willie
    Hough, Charlie
    Houtteman , Art
    Howard , Frank
    Howard, Elston
    Hoy , Dummy
    Hoyt , Waite
    Hrabosky , Al
    Huggins , Miller
    Hunter , Catfish
    Hutchinson , Fred
    Irwin , Charlie
    Jackman , Will
    Jackson , Sonny
    Jensen , Jackie
    John , Tommy
    Johnson , Bob
    Johnson , Davey
    Johnson , Judy
    Jones , Charley
    Jones , Fielder
    Jones , Sam P.
    Jordan , Tim
    Jorgenson , Mike
    Joss , Addie
    Judge , Joe
    Jurges , Billy
    Kaat, Jim
    Kamm , Willie
    Kawakami , Tetsuharu
    Kell , George
    Keller , Charlie
    Keltner , Ken
    Kerr , Dickie
    Kessinger , Don
    Killefer , Bill
    Kilroy , Matt
    Kinder , Ellis
    Kingman , Dave
    Klein , Chuck
    Kling , Johnny
    Kluszewski, Ted
    Knabe , Otto
    Koosman , Jerry
    Koyama, Masaaki
    Kremer , Ray
    Kress , Red
    Kuenn, Harvey
    Kuhel , Joe
    Kuzava , Bob
    Lange , Bill
    Lanier , Hal
    Larkin , Henry
    Larsen, Don
    Latham , Arlie
    Lavagetto , Cookie
    Law, Vern
    Lazzeri , Tony
    Leach , Freddy
    Leach , Tommy
    Lee , Bill
    Lee , Bill (Spaceman)
    Leever , Sam
    Leonard , Dennis
    Leonard , Emil (Dutch)
    Lewis , Duffy
    Lewis, Buddy
    Lindstrom , Freddie
    Lobert , Hans
    Lockman , Whitey
    Lolich, Mickey
    Lollar, Sherm
    Lombardi , Ernie
    Lonborg , Jim
    Long , Herman
    Lopat , Ed
    Lopes , Davey
    Lopez , Al
    Lowe , Bobby
    Lowenstein , John
    Lucas , Red
    Lundy , Dick
    Luque , Dolf
    Luzinski, Greg
    Lyle , Sparky
    Lyons , Denny
    Madlock , Bill
    Maglie , Sal
    Maloney, Jim
    Mancuso , Gus
    Manush , Heinie
    Maranville , Rabbit
    Marberry , Firpo
    Marion , Marty
    Maris, Roger
    Marquard , Rube
    Marshall , Mike G.
    Martin , Morrie
    Martin , Pepper
    Mathews , Bobby
    May , Lee
    Mays , Carl
    Mazeroski , Bill
    McAleer , Jimmy
    McCarthy , Tommy
    McCarver , Tim
    McCormick , Frank
    McCormick , Jim
    McDaniel , Lindy
    McDougald, Gil
    McGowan , Bill
    McGraw , Tug
    McInnis , Stuffy
    McLain , Denny
    McLean , Larry
    McMahon, Don
    McManus , Marty
    McMillan, Roy
    McNally , Dave
    McVey , Cal
    Meadows , Lee
    Messersmith , Andy
    Meusel , Bob
    Miksis , Eddie
    Milan , Clyde
    Millan , Felix
    Miller , Bing
    Miller , Dots
    Miller , Hack
    Monday , Rick
    Money , Don
    Monroe , Bill
    Moon, Wally
    Moore , Jo-Jo
    Moore , Terry
    Moran , Pat
    Mostil , Johnny
    Mota, Manny
    Mulcahy , Hugh
    Mullane , Tony
    Mungo , Van
    Munson , Thurman
    Murcer , Bobby
    Murphy , Danny
    Murray , Red
    Myer , Buddy
    Nehf , Art
    Nettles , Graig
    Newcombe , Don
    Newsom , Bobo
    Nicholson , Bill
    Niekro , Joe
    Northey , Ron
    O'Doul , Lefty
    Oeschger , Joe
    O'Farrell , Bob
    O'Leary , Charlie
    Oliva, Tony
    Oliver , Al
    O'Neill , Steve
    O'Neill , Tip
    Orr , Dave
    Pabor , Charlie
    Pafko , Andy
    Parker , Dave
    Parrish , Larry
    Pascual, Camilo
    Paskert , Dode
    Pearson , Monte
    Peckinpaugh , Roger
    Peitz , Heinie
    Pennock , Herb
    Perdue , Hub
    Perez , Tony
    Perkins , Cy
    Perranoski , Ron
    Perry , Jim
    Pesky , Johnny
    Petrocelli, Rico
    Phillippe , Deacon 
    Pierce , Billy
    Pike , Lip
    Piniella, Lou
    Pinson, Vada
    Pipp , Wally
    Podres, Johnny
    Poles , Spotswood
    Porterfield , Bob
    Powell , Boog
    Power , Vic
    Pruett , Hub
    Quinn , Jack
    Quisenberry , Dan
    Raschi , Vic
    Raymond , Bugs
    Redding , Dick
    Reiser , Pete
    Remsen , Jack
    Reuschel , Rick
    Reynolds , Allie
    Rice , Del
    Rice , Jim 
    Rice , Sam
    Richard, J R
    Richardson , Bobby
    Richardson , Hardy
    Ring , Jimmy
    Ritchey , Claude
    Rivers , Mickey
    Rixey , Eppa
    Robertson , Dave
    Roe , Preacher
    Rolfe , Red
    Rommel , Eddie
    Root , Charlie
    Rosen, Al
    Roush , Edd 
    Rucker , Nap
    Rudolph , Dick
    Ruel , Muddy
    Russell , Bill
    Ryan  , Jimmy
    Sain , Johnny
    Sanguillen , Manny
    Sauer , Hank
    Schacht , Al
    Schaefer , Germany
    Schalk , Ray
    Schang , Wally
    Schoendienst , Red
    Schreckengost , Ossie
    Schulte , Frank
    Scott , Everett
    Scott , George
    Scott , Jack
    Selkirk , George
    Severeid , Hank
    Sewell , Joe
    Sewell , Luke
    Sewell , Rip
    Seymour , Cy
    Shantz, Bobby
    Sheckard , Jimmy
    Sherdel , Bill
    Shocker , Urban
    Short , Chris
    Siebert , Sonny
    Sievers , Roy
    Simmons, Curt
    Singleton , Ken
    Sisti , Sibby
    Smith , Earl
    Smith , Reggie
    Smith , Sherry
    Sparks , Tully
    Speier, Chris
    Stahl , Jake
    Stanky , Eddie
    Stanley , Mickey
    Staub , Rusty
    Steinfeldt , Harry
    Stephens , Vern
    Stephenson , Riggs
    Stottlemyre , Mel
    Street , Gabby
    Suhr , Gus
    Sukeforth , Clyde
    Sundberg , Jim
    Sutter , Bruce
    Sweeney , Bill
    Tannehill , Jesse
    Taylor , Ben
    Tebbetts , Birdie
    Tekulve, Kent
    Tenace , Gene
    Tenney , Fred
    Thevenow , Tommy
    Thomas , Ira
    Thomson , Bobby
    Thornton , Andre
    Tiernan , Mike
    Tinker , Joe
    Tobin , Jim
    Toney , Fred
    Torgeson, Earl
    Torrez , Mike
    Travis, Cecil
    Trouppe , Quincy
    Trout , Dizzy
    Trucks , Virgil
    Turner , Terry
    Uhle , George
    Valo , Elmer
    Van Haltren , George
    Vander Meer , Johnny
    Veach , Bobby
    Vernon , Mickey
    Walberg , Rube
    Walker , Harry
    Walters , Bucky
    Wambsganss , Bill
    Waner , Lloyd
    Warfield , Frank
    Warneke , Lon
    Watson , Bob 
    Welch , Mickey
    Werber , Billy
    Wertz, Vic
    West , Sam
    Westrum , Wes
    White , Sol
    White , Will 
    White, Frank
    Whitehill , Earl
    Williams , Cy
    Williams , Ken
    Williamson , Ned
    Willis , Vic
    Wills, Maury
    Wilson , Hack
    Wilson , Jim
    Wilson , Jimmie
    Winfield , Dave
    Witt , Whitey
    Wood , Joe
    Wood , Wilbur
    Wright , Glenn
    Wyatt , Whit 
    Yamamoto , Koji
    Yeager , Steve
    Yerkes , Steve
    York , Rudy
    Young , Pep
    Youngs , Ross
    Zachary , Tom
    Zimmer , Chief
    The complete list of eligible contributors:
    Code:
    Abe , Iso
    Ashford, Emmet
    Autry, Gene
    Bancroft , Frank
    Barlick, Al
    Berger , Sy
    Brickhouse , Jack
    Buck , Jack 
    Bulkely , Morgan
    Busch , Augie
    Cambria , Joe
    Campbell , Jim
    Canel, Buck
    Caray, Harry
    Carrigan, Bill
    Caylor , O. P.
    Chandler, Happy
    Chylak , Nestor
    Conlan , Jocko
    Cooper , Andy
    Cummings , Candy
    Dark , Alvin
    Davids , Bob 
    Dinneen , Bill
    Doubleday , Abner
    Dreyfuss , Barney
    Dyer , Eddie
    Dykes , Jimmy
    Elias , Al Munro
    Evans, Billy
    Feller, Sherm
    Fergsuon, Bob
    Fetzer, John
    Foster , John B.
    Fowler, Bud
    Fullerton , Hugh
    Giles , Warren
    Gleason , Kid
    Gonzalez , Mike
    Gowdy , Curt
    Grimm, Charlie
    Haak , Howie
    Haney , Fred
    Harridge, Willie
    Harris , Bucky
    Harris, Vic
    Harvey, Doug
    Harwell, Ernie
    Hemond , Roland
    Herzog, Whitey
    Heydler, John
    Hillerich , John
    Hodges, Gil
    Hodges, Russ
    Houk , Ralph
    Howsam, Bob
    Hubbard , Cal
    Hutchinson , Fred
    Jobe , Frank
    Krichell, Paul
    Kuenn , Harvey
    Kuhn , Bowie
    Lanigan, Ernest
    Lardner , Ring
    Leavitt, Jr. , Charles W.
    Luque , Dolf
    MacPhail, Lee
    Manley , Effa
    Martin  , Billy
    Mauch , Gene
    McCarthy , Tommy
    McGowan, Bill
    Mills , A. G.
    Mizuhara, Shigeru
    Moran , Pat
    Murnane, Tim
    Murtaugh, Danny
    Mutrie , Jim
    Navin , Frank
    Nelson , Lindsey
    Norworth, Jack
    O'Day, Hank
    O'Doul, Lefty
    O'Neill, Steve
    Osborn , Frank
    Pasquel, Jorge
    Patkin, Max
    Pesky , Johnny
    Pompez , Alex 
    Pulliam, Harry
    Ramirez, Felo
    Reese , Jimmie
    Rice, Grantland
    Richards, Paul
    Ritter , Lawrence
    Robinson , Wilbert
    Schoendienst, Red
    Scully, Vin
    Sewell , Luke
    Sheppard, Bob
    Smith, Red
    Stallings , George
    Steinbrenner, George
    Street, Gabby
    Tanner , Chuck
    Thayer , Ernest
    Tyson, Ty
    van der Ahe, Chris
    Virdon, Bill
    Warfield , Frank
    Weyer , Lee
    Williams , Dick
    Wilson , Horace
    Wrigley, Phil
    Yawkey, Tom
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    southeastern PA
    Posts
    14,389
    Blog Entries
    34
    My ballot
    Players
    1. George Brett
    2. Charlie Keller
    3. Perucho Cepeda
    4. Cupid Childs
    5. Sal Bando
    6. Quincy Trouppe
    7. Masaaki Koyama
    8. Rick Reuschel
    9. Bill Freehan
    10. Hugh Duffy
    11. Reggie Smith
    12. Keith Hernandez

    Contributors
    1. Vic Harris
    2. Iso Abe
    3. Dick Williams
    4. Vin Scully
    5. Bob Ferguson

    George Brett goes right to the top of my player list. Reggie Smith and Keith Hernandez fill in the bottom two rungs of my dozen players. As for the contributors, Bob Ferguson joins the list, leaving Al Munro Elias (probably next from the holdover contributors), Steinbrenner and Murnane in my contributor queue.
    Last edited by jalbright; 05-08-2011 at 10:21 AM.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  8. #8
    Players:

    1. George Brett
    2. Reggie Smith
    3. Jimmy Sheckard
    4. Sal Bando
    5. Cal McVey
    6. Rick Reuschel
    7. Perucho Cepeda
    8. Keith Hernandez
    9. Rabbit Maranville
    10. Urban Shocker
    11. Wally Schang
    12. Hugh Duffy

    Contributors:

    1. Bob Ferguson
    2. O.P. Caylor
    3. Al Munro Elias
    4. Iso Abe
    5. Vin Scully

    Harry Caray, Happy Chandler, Jocko Conlan, Candy Cummings, Bill Dinneen, Bud Fowler, Vic Harris, Gil Hodges, Ring Lardner, Billy Martin, Shigeru Mizuhara, Tim Murnane, Lefty O'Doul, Red Schoendienst, George Steinbrenner, Dick Williams all being strongly considered at this point on the contributor side.

    My queued up players are Charley Jones, Quincy Trouppe, Bill Freehan, Edd Roush, Lou Brock, Hardy Richardson.

    I'm unlikely to add a new pitcher anytime soon, unless a strong newcomer emerges as the carryovers go Jack Quinn, Burleigh Grimes, Bruce Sutter, Dan Quisenberry, Eppa Rixey, Don Newcombe, Ron Guidry, Catfish Hunter, Harry Brecheen, Chief Bender.

    In my consideration set on the players side are Luis Aparicio, Dave Bancroft, Jake Beckley, Chief Bender, Wally Berger, Max Bishop, Bobby Bonds, Bob Boone, Harry Brecheen, Pete Browning, Lou Brock, Cesar Cedeno, Orlando Cepeda, Cupid Childs, Dave Concepcion, Lave Cross, Leon Day, Dwight Evans, Bill Freehan, Steve Garvey, Burleigh Grimes, Ron Guidry, Dummy Hoy, Catfish Hunter, Fielder Jones, Joe Kelley, Tommy Leach, Thurman Munson, Graig Nettles, Don Newcombe, Tony Perez, Lip Pike, Spotswood Poles, Jack Quinn, Dan Quisenberry, Sam Rice, Hardy Richardson, Eppa Rixey, Edd Roush, Joe Sewell, Rusty Staub, Bruce Sutter, Quincy Trouppe, George Van Haltren. Some may make my ballot, some may not depending on who we are looking at in terms of newcomers.

  9. #9
    Top returnees by 1997 voting along with intriguing candidate Keith Hernandez - analysis using Sean Smith's WAR and Bill James's WSAB.

    WAR
    1.00 3.00 5.00 7.00 10.0 13.0 15.0 Tot First Last
    8.00 18.1 27.1 34.6 39.4 39.4 39.4 39.4 Addie Joss
    6.70 18.6 28.0 35.5 43.5 49.4 50.9 50.9 Edd Roush
    7.40 20.6 32.8 44.2 52.7 54.2 54.2 54.2 Charlie Keller
    5.10 15.3 23.4 29.1 35.4 40.3 41.8 41.8 Lou Brock
    10.2 21.5 31.0 39.8 49.6 58.3 62.3 65.2 Dwight Evans
    6.00 16.0 24.0 31.6 40.8 47.8 51.6 56.1 Eppa Rixey
    7.00 20.2 29.8 36.7 44.4 48.5 48.7 48.7 Burleigh Grimes
    5.60 15.7 23.6 30.8 39.4 46.3 49.6 50.7 Luis Aparicio
    6.10 16.8 26.5 35.2 47.6 58.0 63.4 68.6 Jake Beckley
    7.90 21.2 29.6 36.4 45.3 52.1 54.4 54.9 Jimmy Sheckard
    7.20 17.6 26.8 34.8 41.0 41.2 41.2 41.2 Wally Berger
    8.80 24.0 35.3 43.5 50.0 54.8 55.3 55.3 Bill Freehan
    9.00 20.7 29.2 36.7 46.9 54.7 57.7 60.1 Darrell Evans
    8.80 20.0 30.6 40.9 52.3 61.5 65.7 67.9 Rick Reuschel
    6.30 17.9 28.2 37.6 50.5 59.3 63.7 65.2 Reggie Smith
    8.90 22.5 34.5 45.5 57.2 61.3 61.4 61.4 Sal Bando
    8.30 22.6 34.4 43.3 50.6 51.6 51.6 51.6 Cupid Childs
    7.60 20.2 30.9 40.4 52.1 57.7 57.7 57.7 Urban Shocker
    7.20 20.6 32.8 43.3 55.9 63.6 63.9 63.9 Keith Hernandez

    WSAB
    21.0 53.3 77.00 95.60 107.8 107.8 107.8 107.8 Addie Joss
    22.0 60.6 91.60 112.7 140.8 157.7 162.6 162.6 Edd Roush
    23.2 67.3 105.4 137.7 160.0 165.4 165.4 165.4 Charlie Keller
    18.1 52.7 76.40 96.60 123.8 141.5 147.0 147.0 Lou Brock
    25.7 60.3 85.00 105.0 128.5 146.5 155.5 166.0 Dwight Evans
    16.3 45.7 70.00 93.20 121.1 140.3 151.8 166.5 Eppa Rixey
    20.5 56.5 87.30 105.4 129.6 144.9 145.6 145.6 Burleigh Grimes
    7.50 19.5 29.00 37.20 46.10 50.10 51.20 51.20 Luis Aparicio
    12.9 36.1 57.80 77.10 103.8 127.1 141.1 155.3 Jake Beckley
    23.1 63.9 92.00 115.7 146.8 169.7 174.9 173.7 Jimmy Sheckard
    24.8 61.8 88.30 107.1 127.8 128.2 128.2 128.2 Wally Berger
    22.4 59.2 89.10 109.3 125.1 131.7 133.4 133.4 Bill Freehan
    17.2 47.8 73.90 96.30 124.5 148.8 156.7 165.4 Darrell Evans
    17.5 41.0 61.60 80.00 102.3 121.2 125.2 126.4 Rick Reuschel
    18.4 49.0 77.40 103.6 137.0 162.6 172.3 172.3 Reggie Smith
    20.6 52.8 75.20 95.40 117.9 122.8 122.8 122.8 Sal Bando
    20.0 55.6 80.80 100.9 113.9 114.2 114.2 114.2 Cupid Childs
    17.3 46.6 75.10 96.10 123.7 131.1 131.1 131.1 Urban Shocker
    21.0 57.5 90.90 118.4 149.8 167.2 167.9 167.9 Keith Hernandez

    General interpretation of WAR values:
    Tier 1 - Reuschel, Bando, Hernandez, Dwight Evans
    Tier 2 - Keller (who could move at or near the top with MLE credit for his outstanding minor league performance/block by Yankees - larger bump in WWII credit)
    Tier 2 - Smith, Beckley, Freehan - ~30% catching bonus, Shocker.
    Tier 3 - Darrell Evans, Childs, Sheckard
    Tier 4 - Roush, Grimes
    Tier 5 - Rixey, Aparicio, Berger, Joss
    Tier 6 - Brock

    If you are a Peak fan, you can nudge Freehan, Bando, Childs, Dwight Evans, Hernandez, and Keller to the front of the pack.
    If you are a prime fan, you can nudge Hernandez, Bando, Freehan, Childs, Keller, Reuschel, and Shocker to the front of the pack.
    If you are a pure career guy, Beckley, Reuschel, Dwight Evans, Smith, and Hernandez standout.

    General interpretation of WSAB values:
    By WSAB: Overall
    Win Shares looks quite favorably on OF.
    Tier 1 - Keller, Sheckard
    Tier 2 - Hernandez, Roush, Smith, Dwight Evans
    Tier 3 - Grimes, Darrell Evans, Freehan
    Tier 4 - Berger, Brock, Rixey
    Tier 5 - Shocker, Bando, Childs
    Tier 6 - Beckley, Joss, Reuschel
    Tier 7 - Aparicio

    If you are a peak fan, you'll have interest in Keller, Sheckard, Berger, Roush, Dwight Evans, and Freehan.
    If you are a prime fan, look at Hernandez, Keller, Sheckard, Roush, Berger, Freehan, and Dwight Evans.
    If you are a career fan, interest in Sheckard, Smith, Hernandez, Keller, Roush, and the Evans boys makes sense.

    BOTH SYSTEMS AGREE: Keller, Hernandez, Dwight Evans, and Reggie Smith are strong candidates.
    Last edited by Jar of Flies; 05-07-2011 at 03:31 PM.

  10. #10
    Additional thoughts/interpretations of the WAR/WSAB figures:
    While Sal Bando looks sweet as roses, Dan Rosenheck at the Hall of Merit has an analysis caution his take on value:

    http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/...hall_of_merit/
    37. David Concepcion de la Desviacion Estandar (Dan R) Posted: November 24, 2009 at 09:07 PM (#3396192)
    I'm going to take this opportunity to compare and contrast three players that my system and CHONE's strongly disagree on: Sal Bando, Willie Davis, and Dagoberto Campaneris. I hope a close analysis will help illuminate the differences between CHONE's methodology and mine (although it is worth emphasizing that a cursory comparison of our rankings shows that the systems are extremely similar). I have converted his numbers to a comparable format to mine--raw hitting, GIDP, and ROE are subsumed under batting; TZ, ifDP, OFarm, and Catch are subsumed under fielding, the subcategories are converted from runs to wins, and seasons are straight-line adjusted to 162 games. I have also adjusted my BWAA and Replc to use the pitchers-removed average as league average for non-DH years, to mirror CHONE's accounting.

    Glossary

    SFrac: Percentage of the league average plate appearances per lineup slot for that season, a measure of playing time (greater than 1 for leadoff men, etc.)
    RBWAA: Rosenheck batting wins above average.
    RBRWAA: Rosenheck baserunning wins above average.
    RFWAA: Rosenheck fielding wins above average.
    RRepl: Wins above average a replacement player would have accumulated in the same playing time, according to Rosenheck.
    RWARP1: Rosenheck total wins above replacement, unadjusted for standard deviations.
    LgAdj: Ratio of the 2005 standard deviation to the regression-projected standard deviation of the league-season in question.
    RWARP2: Rosenheck total wins above replacement, adjusted for standard deviations.
    SBWAA: Smith batting wins above average.
    SBRWAA: Smith baserunning wins above average.
    SFWAA: Smith fielding wins above average
    SRepl: Wins above average a replacement player would have accumulated in the same playing time, according to Smith.
    SWARP1: Smith total wins above replacement, unadjusted for standard deviations.
    TXBR: Totals, excluding sub-replacement seasons.

    Sal Bando

    YEAR SFrac RBWAA RBRWAA RFWAA RRepl RWARP1 LgAdj RWARP2 | SBWAA SBRWAA SFWAA SRepl SWARP1
    1967 0.22 -0.5 0.1 0.1 -0.4 0.0 0.985 0.0 | -0.2 0.0 0.7 -0.5 1.0
    1968 1.01 0.7 0.2 0.6 -1.8 3.4 1.003 3.4 | 0.7 0.1 -0.1 -2.5 3.2
    1969 1.08 5.2 -0.2 -0.6 -1.8 6.3 0.948 6.0 | 6.1 0.1 0.2 -2.5 8.9
    1970 0.93 3.3 -0.4 -0.4 -1.7 4.3 0.949 4.1 | 3.0 0.1 0.4 -2.6 6.2
    1971 0.95 3.2 -0.3 -0.5 -1.8 4.2 0.962 4.0 | 3.0 -0.1 0.7 -2.7 6.3
    1972 0.99 1.6 0.2 0.9 -2.0 4.8 0.970 4.7 | 1.1 0.2 1.1 -2.7 5.1
    1973 1.00 4.5 0.0 -1.7 -2.1 4.9 0.947 4.6 | 5.2 0.1 -0.7 -2.8 7.3
    1974 0.89 2.7 0.4 -1.4 -1.8 3.5 0.963 3.4 | 3.2 0.1 -0.4 -2.4 5.3
    1975 0.97 0.3 0.2 0.4 -2.0 2.9 0.943 2.7 | 0.3 0.2 0.5 -2.6 3.6
    1976 0.94 2.4 0.2 0.3 -2.1 5.0 0.948 4.7 | 2.7 0.1 0.2 -2.7 5.7
    1977 0.97 0.3 0.1 -0.1 -2.2 2.6 0.907 2.4 | -0.3 0.4 0.7 -2.2 3.0
    1978 0.93 2.7 0.1 0.7 -2.2 5.7 0.919 5.2 | 2.4 0.1 0.9 -2.3 5.8
    1979 0.79 -1.3 0.1 -0.5 -1.8 0.1 0.913 0.1 | -1.4 0.0 -0.3 -1.8 0.1
    1980 0.42 -1.4 -0.1 -0.3 -1.0 -0.8 0.929 -0.7 | -1.2 -0.1 -0.3 -0.8 -0.8
    1981 0.16 -0.3 0.0 -0.3 -0.3 -0.3 0.950 -0.3 | 0.0 -0.2 0.0 -0.2 0.0
    TOTL 12.25 23.4 0.6 -2.8 -25.0 46.6 0.951 44.3 | 24.7 1.2 3.7 -31.1 60.7
    TXBR 11.67 25.1 0.7 -2.2 -23.7 47.7 0.950 45.3 | 25.9 1.3 4.0 -30.3 61.5
    AVRG 1.00 1.9 0.0 -0.2 -2.0 3.8 0.951 3.6 | 2.0 0.1 0.3 -2.5 5.0


    Sean and I clearly see Bando's offense the same way. We have a significant but not enormous disagreement on his fielding---Sean sees him as a slightly above average fielder, me as a slightly below one. (I'm really not sure what to make of this, since SFR thinks Bando was a brilliant 3B and DRA a meaningfully below average one; the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle). And we have a yawning gap on the intrinsic value of playing third base. I see 3B during Bando's prime as a dead mid-spectrum position, no different than it is today, while Sean has it as glove position, not far from where he puts modern SS. (Note that my view and Sean's converge starting in around 1977).
    He goes on to explain why he supports Bert Campaneris for his ballot instead, who I have as a bubble candidate, but whom I don't expect anyone else to vote for:

    Dagoberto Campaneris

    YEAR SFrac RBWAA RBRWAA RFWAA RRepl RWARP1 LgAdj RWARP2 | SBWAA SBRWAA SFWAA SRepl SWARP1
    1964 0.42 -0.6 0.2 -0.5 -1.7 0.9 0.983 0.9 | -0.4 0.0 -0.7 -0.9 -0.2
    1965 0.94 0.5 0.3 -1.4 -3.7 3.2 0.977 3.1 | -0.3 0.2 -1.2 -1.8 0.5
    1966 0.91 -0.3 0.9 -0.6 -3.7 3.7 0.999 3.7 | 0.4 1.0 -0.5 -2.7 3.5
    1967 0.97 -0.9 0.7 -0.8 -4.1 3.2 0.985 3.2 | -0.5 0.3 -0.8 -2.6 1.6
    1968 1.06 1.9 0.6 0.7 -4.5 7.6 1.003 7.6 | 1.5 0.3 1.0 -3.1 5.9
    1969 0.86 -1.9 1.2 0.1 -4.0 3.3 0.948 3.1 | -1.3 1.0 1.1 -2.3 3.1
    1970 0.95 1.4 0.6 1.0 -4.5 7.4 0.949 7.0 | 1.3 0.3 1.0 -3.0 5.6
    1971 0.91 -1.7 0.7 0.3 -4.2 3.4 0.962 3.3 | -1.5 0.8 1.0 -2.6 2.9
    1972 1.05 -1.7 1.1 1.7 -4.6 5.8 0.970 5.6 | -1.1 0.7 1.5 -3.1 4.2
    1973 0.97 -1.4 0.4 1.8 -4.4 5.3 0.947 5.0 | -1.0 0.3 2.0 -2.9 4.2
    1974 0.85 1.1 0.4 0.7 -3.9 6.1 0.963 5.9 | 1.6 0.4 0.7 -2.7 5.4
    1975 0.84 -0.3 0.2 -0.2 -3.8 3.5 0.943 3.3 | -0.1 0.0 0.1 -2.6 2.6
    1976 0.91 0.0 0.5 0.4 -4.0 5.0 0.948 4.7 | -0.1 0.3 0.9 -3.0 4.1
    1977 0.89 -1.2 0.0 1.7 -4.1 4.6 0.907 4.2 | -1.1 -0.3 1.7 -3.0 3.3
    1978 0.44 -2.4 0.3 -0.2 -2.0 -0.3 0.919 -0.3 | -2.5 0.2 0.0 -1.5 -0.8
    1979 0.40 -1.6 -0.1 0.4 -1.8 0.5 0.913 0.5 | -1.1 0.1 -0.3 -1.3 0.0
    1980 0.33 -0.6 -0.1 -0.4 -1.5 0.3 0.929 0.3 | -0.7 0.0 -0.5 -1.0 -0.2
    1981 0.20 0.0 0.0 -0.7 -0.4 -0.2 0.950 -0.2 | -0.3 0.0 -0.3 -0.5 -0.2
    1983 0.22 0.1 -0.4 -0.2 -0.6 0.1 0.954 0.1 | 0.3 -0.4 -0.3 -0.6 0.2
    TOTL 14.12 -9.6 7.5 3.8 -61.5 63.4 0.962 61.0 | -6.8 5.1 6.4 -41.0 45.7
    TXBR 13.48 -7.2 7.2 4.7 -59.1 63.9 0.962 61.5 | -2.9 4.9 7.9 -37.2 47.1
    AVRG 1.00 -0.7 0.5 0.3 -4.4 4.5 0.962 4.3 | -0.5 0.4 0.5 -2.9 3.2


    Once more, we have similar takes on overall value above average, with Sean slightly more kind to Campaneris. (It's worth noting here that SFR has Campaneris as an otherworldly +144 shortstop, and DRA also gives him a superb +109. With that kind of defense and baserunning value, Campaneris's case is far stronger than I make it here, where old BP FRAA and Fielding Win Shares thought he was merely good). It's that replacement level column that is night and day: Sean has SS a mere 2.5 runs per year more valuable in the 70's than it is today (which I think he himself recognizes is a fudge, due to the arbitrary +10 cap he places on positional adjustments...right, Sean? Kind of like Bill James's cap on Fielding WS). By contrast, as everyone in the HoM knows, I see 70's SS as the toughest position to fill at any point in MLB history. If you could even provide league-average offense at the position back then, you were an All-Star in my book. I have offered two potential explanations for this phenomenon: the mega-expansion of the 1960's, which hurt SS more than (say) LF/RF due to the intrinsic scarcity of the position, and the advent of turf ballparks.

    As a reminder, I derive my positional weights by starting with Nate Silver's findings on the aggregate performance of Freely Available Talent (MLB players over age 27 earning less than twice the minimum salary), and adjusting them over time based on the performance of worst 3/8 of everyday players at each position. Sean gets his by studying the fielding of position-switchers over ten-year periods (e.g. 1970-1980).
    Last edited by Jar of Flies; 05-07-2011 at 03:38 PM.

  11. #11
    More notes on high backlog candidates:

    Jimmy Sheckard sailed into the Hall of Merit, and was ranked ahead/at the same level of Best of Baseball members among left fielders: Zack Wheat, Joe Kelley, Goose Goslin. He also placed ahead of Minnie Minoso, Joe Medwick, and Ralph Kiner. This assessment likely is concluded due to his excellent defensive value.
    http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/..._tops_in_left/

    Darrell Evans was voted as similar/marginally better than John Beckwith and Stan Hack by the Hall of Merit electorate among third basemen.
    http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/...s_brett_boggs/

    As mentioned in previous ballot threads, I am a believer in the WAR analysis of Rick Reuschel, which is confirmed by Hall of Merit founder Joe Dimino's Pennants Added analysis.

    Bill Freehan will be debuting near the bottom of my ballot - hopefully I am giving him enough credit for filling the catcher position.

    Edd Roush is off ballot, as I find him to be overrated due to his success in the weak NL of the 1910s, early 20s.

    Urban Shocker will be debuting near the end of my ballot - he is impressive by WAR and PA statistics.

    Childs is another intriguing player worth considering, especially for peak fans.
    Beckley is the opposite of Childs, he's worth considering particularly for career voters.
    Grimes looks real good by WSAB, but a fair bit short by WAR.
    Berger and Brock are borderline by WSAB, but WS is favorable to accumulation of PA (Brock) and CF receiving defensive value (Berger), and are well out by WAR.
    Rixey looks borderline or out by both systems.
    Aparicio and Joss miss by both analysis.

    Players receiving votes who I am a fan of:
    Perucho Cepeda - based on Jalbright's analysis is a high quality candidate, HOM says to be careful, but that he may be a bit short. - I fall in between.
    Masaaki Koyama - the translated statistics and comparisons to Best of Baseball hurlers are overwhelmingly impressive for Koyama by Jalbright.
    Dick Lundy - new evidence that the HOM uncovered in 2008 showed him to be an excellent defender, and a capable contact hitter who took walks.
    Don Newcombe - a career potentially over the line if you give him peak Korean war credit/blocked from majors/development credit with integration era. What a hitter!
    Cal McVey - challenging to make a WAR/WSAB analysis for players as far back as him - HOM ranks him a smidge ahead of Freehan, Bresnahan, Trouppe, and Mackey among backstops? I could be convinced he's ballot worthy.
    Quincy Trouppe - a challenging case to analyze, just off ballot and may deserve to be on.
    Hardy Richardson - another strong candidate close to ballot - excellent 1880s 2B who might deserve more credit for time in International Association late 1870s.
    Last edited by Jar of Flies; 05-07-2011 at 03:54 PM.

  12. #12
    1998 ballot:

    1 George Brett
    2 Charlie Keller
    3 Rick Reuschel
    4 Dwight Evans
    5 Dick Lundy
    6 Masaaki Koyama
    7 Darrell Evans
    8 Jimmy Sheckard
    9 Reggie Smith
    10 Don Newcombe
    11 Bill Freehan
    12 Keith Hernandez


    Contributors:
    1 Johnny Pesky
    2 Vin Scully
    3 Vic Harris
    4 Doug Harvey
    5 Al Munro Elias
    Last edited by Jar of Flies; 05-08-2011 at 02:43 AM. Reason: Hat tip to jjpm74 - Brett was accidentially omitted

  13. #13
    Jar of Flies--is George Brett's absence from your ballot an oversight? He should be a no brainer at this point.

  14. #14
    Players:

    1. George Brett
    2. Addie Joss
    3. Lou Brock
    4. Jake Beckley
    5. Edd Roush
    6. Charlie Keller
    7. Masaaki Koyama
    8. Tony Mullane
    9. Jimmy Sheckard
    10. Keith Hernandez
    11. Rick Reuschel
    12. Ray Dandridge


    Contributors:

    1. Happy Chandler
    2. Harry Caray
    3. Vin Scully
    4. Dick Williams
    5. Bob Ferguson


    I decided that Keller should have more support. I am really impressed with what he was able to accomplish in the time he played. He deserves to be in. Freehan is next on the list with Dwight Evans after him.
    Last edited by TheMendozaLine; 05-08-2011 at 05:16 PM. Reason: Two #2's!

  15. #15
    1. George Brett
    2. Charlie Keller
    3. Dwight Evans
    4. Darrell Evans
    5. Cal McVey
    6. Leroy Matlock
    7. Lip Pike
    8. Jimmy Sheckard
    9. Keith Hernandez
    10. Bill Freehan
    11. Hardy Richardson
    12. Johnny Pesky

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    1,598
    Players:

    1. George Brett
    2. Addie Joss
    3. Edd Roush
    4. Wally Berger
    5. Lou Brock
    6. Perucho Cepeda
    7. Luis Aparicio
    8. Charlie Keller
    9. Dwight Evans
    10. Masaaki Koyama
    11. Rick Reuschel
    12. Eppa Rixey

    Contributors:

    1. Bob Ferguson
    2. Vic Harris
    3. Iso Abe
    4. Vin Scully
    5. Billy Evans

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    southeastern PA
    Posts
    14,389
    Blog Entries
    34
    Quote Originally Posted by TheMendozaLine View Post
    Players:

    1. George Brett
    2. Addie Joss
    2. Lou Brock
    3. Jake Beckley
    4. Edd Roush
    5. Charlie Keller
    6. Masaaki Koyama
    7. Tony Mullane
    8. Jimmy Sheckard
    9. Keith Hernandez
    10. Rick Reuschel
    11. Ray Dandridge
    12. Quincy Trouppe
    Unfortunately, you have 2 number 2's, which leads to a 13 man ballot. As it stands, I'd treat this as a valid ballot, with the second #2 becoming number 3 and everyone else moving down a slot and Trouppe dropping off the ballot. That said, I'd prefer you to confirm that approach or make your own changes. I'll also send you a PM on this.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  18. #18
    fixed!!!!!!!

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    6,514
    Blog Entries
    4
    1. George Brett
    2. Lou Brock
    3. Bill Freehan
    4. Edd Roush
    5. Frank Howard
    6. Orlando Cepeda
    7. Dewey Evans
    8. Keith Hernandez
    9. Cupid Childs
    10. Dave Bancroft
    11. Tommy Leach
    12. Tony Perez

    coming back soon: Ray Dandridge, Johnny Evers
    coming up: Darrell Evans, Bando, Pinson, Maranville, Reggie Smith and Tommy John to name a few.

    1. O.P. Caylor
    2. Red Smith
    3. Billy Evans
    4. Tommy McCarthy
    5. Bob Ferguson

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Balmer, Merlin
    Posts
    7,579
    Players

    1. George Brett
    2. Addie Joss
    3. Eppa Rixey
    4. Edd Roush
    5. Joe Sewell
    6. Rollie Fingers
    7. Luis Aparicio
    8. Keith Hernandez
    9. Wally Berger
    10. Bill Freehan
    11. Billy Pierce
    12. Reggie Smith

    The two people on my list who were elected are replaced by Brett and Hernandez. Jim Wynn was #1 position player in my queue... that falls now to Graig Nettles.

    Contributors

    1. Al Munro Elias
    2. Billy Martin
    3. Billy Evans
    4. Dick Williams
    5. Vic Harris

    Vic Harris and Red Schoendienst are two managers that have climbed up my charts because of their playing days. Harris will make it very soon. Please consider Schoendienst as a combo candidate (that's for player & manager, not as vet's committee member) in the mold of the newly elected Phil Rizzuto.

  21. #21
    1. George Brett
    2. Edd Roush
    3. Addie Joss
    4. Keith Hernandez
    5. Burleigh Grimes
    6. Luis Aparicio
    7. Lefty Gomez
    8. Eppa Rixey
    9. Jake Beckley
    10. Lou Brock
    11. Ray Dandridge
    12. Tony Perez

    Contributors


    1. Billy Evans
    2. O.P. Caylor
    3. Vic Harris
    4. Vin Scully
    5. Dick Williams
    Bill Tom George Mark Bob Ernie Soupy Alex Sparky
    Joe Gary MCA Emanuel Sonny Dave Earl Stan
    Jonathan Neil Roger Anthony Ray Thomas Art Don
    Gates Philip John Warrior JEDI

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    3,322
    01. George Brett
    02. Eppa Rixey
    03. Wally Berger
    04. Jake Beckley
    05. Burleigh Grimes
    06. Addie Joss
    07. Urban Shocker
    08. Perucho Cepeda
    09. Bill Freehan
    10. Sal Bando
    11. Luis Aparicio
    12. Keith Hernandez

    01. Frank Jobe
    02. Vin Scully
    03. Vic Harris
    04. Lefty O'Doul
    05. OP Caylor

  23. #23
    1 George Brett
    2 Addie Joss
    3 B Grimes
    4 Eppa Rixey
    5 Keith Hernandez
    6 Ed Roush
    7 Lou Brock
    8 Luis Aparicio
    9 Urban Shocker
    10 Charlie Keller
    11 Jake Beckley
    12 Billy Pierce

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    southeastern PA
    Posts
    14,389
    Blog Entries
    34
    We have a quorum on the player side, and are one vote shy of that mark on the contributor side.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Indianapolis
    Posts
    8,236
    Players
    1. George Brett
    2. Charlie Keller
    3. Dwight Evans
    4. Perucho Cepeda
    5. Masaaki Koyama
    6. Rick Reuschel
    7. Jimmy Sheckard
    8. Reggie Smith
    9. Cal McVey
    10. Bill Freehan
    11. Darrell Evans
    12. Keith Hernandez

    Contributors
    1. O.P. Caylor
    2. Iso Abe
    3. Vic Harris
    4. Dick Williams
    5. Bob Ferguson
    "What is not discussed, will not be advanced." -- Daniel Patrick Moynihan
    "They didn't call amphetamines 'ability pills' because they allowed you to re-roll your AD&D character sheet." -- Dan Szymborski

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