This is our sixty-third election in this project. The entire rules follow.
This election will end at 11:59:59 PM EDT on May 20, 2011
The prior election, and the ballots of the 1997 voters, are in this thread
Researcher/advocate/mod
This is our sixty-third election in this project. The entire rules follow.
This election will end at 11:59:59 PM EDT on May 20, 2011
The prior election, and the ballots of the 1997 voters, are in this thread
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
Rules
1) All BBF users in good standing may participate. However, if there is more than one vote being cast from any one computer or IP, it must be cleared in advance. Should there be unannounced multiple votes from the same IP, I will investigate the circumstances, and all user names involved may be barred from this project as a result, and all but one of the multiple usernames permanently banned from the site. I only anticipate exceptions for family members living in the same home, but I will entertain requests on other bases. Please note that I and the other mods who participate in the project have the capability of determining the IP from which posts come, and I for one intend to monitor same. I have had to deal with a single user manipulating a project with multiple votes, and I don't intend to repeat the experience.
2) Elections will require a 10 voter quorum. If we do not get ten voters and there are candidate(s) who would be elected no matter what the voters needed to make a quorum did, those candidate(s) will be inducted. Otherwise, no one will be inducted. Further, if we fail to elect a full complement of candidates for the ballot in question in two of any four consecutive elections, the portion(s) of the project failing to meet the election requirement will end. If, for instance, we're doing fine on the player end but not the contributor end, I would drop the contributor end under this rule.
3) We will start in 1936, just as Cooperstown did. For the first election (1936), voters will rank their top 20, taking 10. After that we will go to having voters rank their top 12 players. Points awarded 12-11-10, etc. We will take the top five through 1940, then top three players per year elected until 2010, then two per year. If a voter does not number his selections, I will try to get him/her to do so. If they do not do so before the end of the election period, I may in my sole discretion invalidate the ballot. I have included this provision in order to ease the process of recording the votes. On another point, I know, the 1936 backlog is huge--but that was a historical issue they couldn't avoid, so neither will we.
4) We will also have a contributor ballot, which will elect one a year through 1985, then one every three (3) years. Contributors will be ranked 1 through 5, with points awarded 5-4-3-2-1. Voters may choose to participate in either one of the ballots or both.
5) It is permissible to vote for a candidate on both the contributor and player lists.
6) You are allowed to change your ballot at any time the voting is open. However, if you change your ballot, you've got to notify me (jalbright) by PM or by a new post in the voting thread, or the changes likely will not be registered.
7) Players are eligible at the later of age 45 or the first year thereafter in which the player does not play. If the birthdate is not known, add five years to the first time the player misses a season and has less than 10 games the next season. There is an exception for early death, in which case the year of death plus two will be used if that yields an earlier date.
8) Contributors become eligible at age 65 or in the year of death plus two. whichever comes first.
9) Each election will run for approximately two weeks unless expressly altered by the project manager, contributors and players done simultaneously.
10) No one is excluded from being a candidate, regardless of the league they played in, except those elected in either the contributor or player ballots. At that point, they are removed from further consideration. If there are players who returned to the Negro Leagues or Japan after going to the majors, the departure from the majors will be their career end date for purposes of this project.
11) The standard for including a player on one's ballot is that the player must in the voter's opinion be among the very best eligible players (preferably the number voted on, but if a voter wishes to support someone they feel is 15th in a 12 person ballot instead of one of the top 12, it's too close for anyone to reasonably object. On the other hand, supporting the 25th best eligible candidate on a 12 person ballot is probably beyond the pale). I reserve the power to invalidate ballots which I do not feel are a reasonably knowledgeable, good faith effort to rank the players. One issue I am quite concerned about is that I do not want to see what clearly appear to be attempts to manipulate the ballot so as to elect a candidate. In isolation, I probably could live with this, but if it became a widely used tactic, the project would devolve into something I have no desire to be associated with. Moreover, I think that this position asks everyone else to cast legitimate votes so that you can manipulate the system to favor your pet candidates. I cannot accept that, as it strikes me as unfair to other voters. For example, you can't expect to favor even a legitimate HOF candidate like Bill Dahlen over Babe Ruth to get Dahlen elected without being asked to provide a reasonable justification for ranking Dahlen over Ruth. If you can provide a reasonable justification in that scenario, the ballot will stand. If not, you will be asked to make a change. I realize voters will sometimes have idiosyncratic choices, and I try to allow for that. However, a clear flouting of a consensus is apt to be met with a request that the ballot be justified pursuant to this rule. Certainly, a reasonable justification does not indicate in essence simply that you want Dahlen elected. Furthermore, if I invalidate multiple ballots by the same individual as failing to meet this rule, that individual will forever lose the right to have his/her ballots counted. Voters are encouraged to consider character, sportsmanship, and compliance with the rules and spirit of baseball in their rankings of players.
12) I will post lists of eligible players and contributors before each election. If you have a question about the eligibility of a candidate, please ask. I will provide a list of future eligibility dates as well.
13) My eligibility lists come from all persons in the BBF HOF, BBTF Hall of Merit, and Cooperstown, plus all persons getting a vote in a BBF HOF election in the past year and a half or in a BBWAA election. This is a relatively comprehensive list, and thus I must request that if you want another candidate included, you provide some justification for why said candidate is worthy of getting a vote in this project. The main area I think this might come into play is if a voter supports a person who was eligible for the final selections from the recent pre WWII or Negro League committees but not on my master list. That fact alone would serve as ample justification for putting said candidate on the list. We may learn more about Cuban ball or what have you and thus include others after a case is made for them, however. The contributor list is undoubtedly not as comprehensive, and this fact will be taken into consideration. For players, any request for a multiple time all-star in the all-star era will be approved. Players of that quality will generally be approved without much ado. However, when a player lacks that kind of qualification, I will likely ask for you to get a second from among our voters via a post in the current election thread. When in doubt, I will also require a second for suggested contributors. If a second is forthcoming, the player will be added. If not, the request will be rejected. I want to limit requests and seconds to players or contributors you actually might vote for.
14) Other than the sportsmanship and character issues, players are to be evaluated solely upon their play. I would prefer that if a player is qualified by his play standing alone that he be elected on that basis. However, a candidate may only be elected either as a contributor or a player, but not both. Contributors are the area where the entire body of work during his career in the sport, including his play, managing, scouting, executive, writing, broadcasting or other work in the sport is relevant. Contributors are to be ranked based on who the voter thinks is most worthy of induction into the Contributor group in this project.
15) Any ballot with two (2) or more spots unfilled with eligible candidates is invalid. In the event of the listing of ineligible names, I will try to notify the voter so that he/she can correct the ballot before the end of the voting period. If the change is made timely, it will count. If not, and there are two or more invalid names, the ballot will not be considered valid. If there is only one, the ineligible name will be stricken and all names after it on the affected ballot will be moved up one spot.
16) Any players listed beyond the 12th place for any ballot but the first (in which case it is 20th place) will be ignored. If more than one person is listed as tied for the last available place and the ballot is oversize, all names will be dropped, which may lead to the invalidation of the ballot.
17) Ties are not permitted in ballot listings. I reserve the right to invalidate ballots for use of ties in the rankings, be it within a single ballot or over the course of several ballots. If the voter does not correct such a listing voluntarily, except in the case of an oversize ballot tie for the last eligible place, if do not invalidate the ballot, I will choose the placement of the two "tied" candidates, generally preferring the candidate preferred by the other voters.
18) For any ties between candidates straddling the in/out line of selections, the first thing considered is the ranking of the candidates by the ballots cast. If there are more than two candidates tied, use a 2-1-0 or whatever is appropriate for the number of players tied system. If a voter does not list a candidate, he receives zero points in the tiebreaker procedure. Once one person separates from the tied group, restart with the remaining candidates until there are only as many candidates as the rules call for being elected. If they remain tied after this process, the candidate with the most votes received wins. If it is still tied after that, those with the most #1 votes as the next step, then the most #2 votes and so on to see if that breaks the tie. If not, we will induct all candidates who remain tied at that point.
19) One thing we're going to have to be aware of is the timeline in the case of at least a few contributors. Two which jump out at me are Buck O'Neill, 1976, and Branch Rickey, 1946. I intend to eventually vote for both men, but in 1946, Jackie Robinson was still in Montreal. Really, Branch should wait until at least 1947 after Jackie's success in the majors to get credit for that move. If you think Rickey belongs in the top 5 in 1946 without his role in breaking the color line, that's fine--but he shouldn't get credit for that important success until it actually happened. Buck O'Neill did some important things up until 1976, but after that he was in Ken Burns' Baseball and he was instrumental in the establishment of the Negro Leagues Hall of Fame (both occurred in or around 1994). If you think he belongs based on accomplishments before those two things, that's perfectly acceptable, but please don't credit him with them before they actually happened.
20) I will maintain a thread of the project's history and rules which will provide a listing of all elected candidates.
21) Feel free to ask questions by either sending jalbright a PM, or by posting a question in voting thread
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
The players who become eligible in 1998 are:
There are no new contributors to add to the list.Code:Brett , George Candelaria , John Hernandez , Keith Parrish , Larry Quisenberry , Dan Rice , Jim Sutter , Bruce
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
The 1997 player candidates who were not elected had these results in the that election:
The 1997 contributor candidates who were not elected had these results in the that electionCode:Player……………… votes pts Joss , Addie 6 63 Roush , Edd 6 58 Keller , C 6 45 Brock, Lou 5 39 Evans, Dwight 5 37 Rixey , Eppa 4 36 Cepeda, Perucho 5 33 Grimes , B 3 31 Reuschel, Rick 5 28 Aparicio, Luis 5 26 Beckley , Jake 4 25 Koyama, Masaaki 5 23 Sheckard , J 5 23 Berger , Wally 3 22 Freehan, Bill 5 21 Evans, Darrell 3 20 Smith, Reggie 4 18 Bando, Sal 3 17 McVey , Cal 2 17 Childs , Cupid 2 13 Shocker, Urban 3 13 Howard, Frank 1 9 Cepeda, Orlando 1 8 Gomez, Lefty 1 8 Lundy , Dick 1 8 Sewell , Joe 1 8 Fingers, Rollie 1 7 Dandridge, Ray 3 6 Trouppe, Quincy 2 6 Bancroft , Dave 1 5 Maranville , R 1 5 Matlock, Leroy 1 5 Mullane , Tony 1 5 Leach , Tommy 1 4 Perez, Tony 2 4 Pierce, Billy 3 4 Pike , Lip 1 4 Duffy , Hugh 2 3 Newcombe, Don 1 3 Schang, Wally 1 3 Evers , Johnny 1 1 Jones , Charley 1 1 Richardson , H 1 1
I strongly suggest that you pay attention to this list, as the leaders of the holdovers are likely to join any strong newcomer candidates as the leaders for winning induction.Code:Contributor……… votes pts Harris, Vic 6 19 Caylor , O. P. 4 17 Scully, Vin 6 14 Evans, Billy 4 12 Abe, Iso 4 8 Ferguson, Bob 3 8 Elias, Al Munro 2 7 Williams, Dick 4 7 Chandler, Happy 1 5 Jobe, Frank 1 5 Caray, Harry 1 4 Martin, Billy 1 4 Pesky , Johnny 1 4 Smith, Red 1 4 McCarthy, Tommy 1 2 Harvey, Doug 1 1 O'Doul, Lefty 1 1
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
Members of the Best of Baseball Hall. Last election's inductees are in red.
Players
ContributorsCode:Hank Aaron Pete Alexander Dick Allen Cap Anson Luke Appling Richie Ashburn Earl Averill Frank Baker Ernie Banks Ross Barnes John Beckwith Cool Papa Bell Johnny Bench Charlie Bennett Yogi Berra Akira Bessho Bert Blyleven Lou Boudreau Ken Boyer Roger Bresnahan Dan Brouthers Mordecai Brown Ray Brown Willard Brown Jim Bunning Jesse Burkett Roy Campanella Rod Carew Max Carey Steve Carlton Bob Caruthers Oscar Charleston Fred Clarke John Clarkson Roberto Clemente Ty Cobb Mickey Cochrane Eddie Collins Jimmy Collins Roger Connor Stan Coveleski Sam Crawford Joe Cronin Bill Dahlen George Davis Dizzy Dean Ed Delahanty Bill Dickey Martin Dihigo Joe DiMaggio Larry Doby Bobby Doerr Don Drysdale Buck Ewing Red Faber Bob Feller Wes Ferrell Carlton Fisk Elmer Flick Whitey Ford Willie Foster Nellie Fox Jimmie Foxx Frankie Frisch Pud Galvin Lou Gehrig Charlie Gehringer Bob Gibson Josh Gibson Jack Glasscock Joe Gordon George Gore Goose Goslin Goose Gossage Frank Grant Hank Greenberg Bobby Grich Heinie Groh Lefty Grove Stan Hack Billy Hamilton Isao Harimoto Gabby Hartnett Harry Heilmann Billy Herman Pete Hill Paul Hines Rogers Hornsby Carl Hubbell Kazuhisa Inao Monte Irvin Joe Jackson Reggie Jackson Ferguson Jenkins Hughie Jennings Grant "Home Run"Johnson Walter Johnson Al Kaline Masaichi Kaneda Tim Keefe Willie Keeler Joe Kelley King Kelly Harmon Killebrew Ralph Kiner Sandy Koufax Nap LaJoie Bob Lemon Buck Leonard Pop Lloyd Ted Lyons Biz Mackey Sherry Magee Mickey Mantle Juan Marichal Eddie Mathews Christy Mathewson Willie Mays Willie McCovey Joe McGinnity Bid McPhee Joe Medwick Jose Mendez Minnie Minoso Johnny Mize Dobie Moore Joe Morgan Stan Musial Shigeo Nagashima Hal Newhouser Kid Nichols Phil Niekro Katsuya Nomura Sadaharu Oh Alejandro Oms Jim O'Rourke Mel Ott Satchel Paige Jim Palmer Gaylord Perry Eddie Plank Charlie Radbourn Pee Wee Reese Robin Roberts Brooks Robinson Frank Robinson Jackie Robinson Bullet Joe Rogan Pete Rose Red Ruffing Amos Rusie Babe Ruth Nolan Ryan Ron Santo Louis Santop Mike Schmidt Tom Seaver Al Simmons Ted Simmons George Sisler Enos Slaughter Hilton Smith Duke Snider Warren Spahn Tris Speaker Victor Starffin Willie Stargell Joe Start Turkey Stearnes Harry Stovey Mule Suttles Don Sutton Ezra Sutton Bill Terry Sam Thompson Luis Tiant Joe Torre Cristobal Torriente Pie Traynor Dazzy Vance Arky Vaughan Rube Waddell Honus Wagner Bobby Wallace Ed Walsh Paul Waner John M. Ward Willie Wells Zack Wheat Deacon White Hoyt Wilhelm Billy Williams Smoky Joe Williams Ted Williams Jud Wilson Dave Winfield George Wright Early Wynn Jimmy Wynn Carl Yastrzemski Cy Young
Code:Doc Adams Mel Allen Walter Alston Red Barber Ed Barrow Buzzue Bavasi Ed Bolden Alexander Cartwright Henry Chadwick Frank Chance Charlie Commiskey Charles Conlon Tom Connolly Jim Creighton Jack Dunn Leo Durocher Rube Foster Ford Frick Gus Greenlee Clark Griffith Ned Hanlon Whitey Herzog William Hulbert Miller Huggins Ban Johnson Tetsuharu Kawakami Bill Klem Kenesaw Landis Tommy Lasorda Al Lopez Connie Mack Larry MacPhail Joe McCarthy John McGraw Bill McKechnie Marvin Miller Walter O'Malley Buck O'Neill Dickey Pearce Cum Posey A. J. Reach Francis Richter Branch Rickey Phil Rizzuto Jacob Ruppert Frank Selee Ben Shibe Matsutaro Shoriki Billy Southworth Al Spalding Alfred Spink J. G. T. Spink Casey Stengel C. I. Taylor Kazuto Tsuruoka Bill Veeck Earl Weaver George Weiss Sol White J. L. Wilkinson Harry Wright
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
The complete list of eligible players:
The complete list of eligible contributors:Code:Adams , Babe Adams , Bobby Adams , Sparky Allen , Johnny Alou , Jesus Alou , Matty Alou, Felipe Altrock , Nick Aparicio, Luis Archer , Jimmy Arlett , Buzz Austin , Jimmy Avila, Bobby Bailey , Bob Baker , Dusty Bancroft , Dave Bando , Sal Barry , Jack Bartell , Dick Battin , Joe Bauer , Hank Baylor , Don Beaumont , Ginger Beckert, Glenn Beckley , Jake Belanger , Mark Bell , Buddy Bender , Chief Benton , Larry Berg , Moe Bergen , Marty Berger , Wally Berry , Charlie Bibby , Jim Bigbee , Carson Billingham , Jack Bishop , Max Blackwell , Ewell Blades , Ray Blair , Paul Blass , Steve Blue , Lu Blue , Vida Bluege , Ossie Blyleven , Bert Bodie , Ping Boley , Joe Bond , Tommy Bonds , Bobby Boone, Bob Bottomley , Jim Bowa , Larry Boyer , Clete Bradley , Bill Brecheen , Harry Breitenstein , Ted Brett , George Brewer , Jim Bridges , Tommy Brock, Lou Browning , Pete Bruton, Bill Buckner , Bill Burdette , Lew Burgess , Smoky Burns , George J. Burroughs , Jeff Bush , Joe Bush , Donie Bush , Guy Cadore , Leon Camilli , Dolph Camnitz , Howie Campaneris , Bert Campbell , Bill Candelaria , John Cardenal , Jose Cardenas , Leo Carrasquel. Chico Carrigan , Bill Carroll, Clay Case , George Cash , Dave Cash, Norm Cavaretta , Phil Cedeno , Cesar Cepeda , Orlando Cepeda , Perucho Cey , Ron Chandler , Spud Chapman , Ben Chapman , Ray Chapman , Sam Chase , Hal Chesbro , Jack Childs , Cupid Cicotte , Eddie Cissell , Bill Clark , Watty Clarkson , Bus Clift, Harlond Coakley , Andy Colavito, Rocky Collins , Shano Combs , Earle Concepcion , Dave Conroy , Wid Coombs , Jack Cooper , Andy Cooper , Mort Cooper , Walker Cooper , Wilbur Courtney , Clint Cox , Billy Crandall , Doc Crandall, Del Cravath , Gavvy Criger , Lou Critz , Hughie Cross , Lave Crowder , Al Cruise , Walt Cruz , Jose Cuccinello , Tony Cummings , Candy Cuyler , Kiki Dandridge , Ray Danning , Harry Dark , Alvin Daubert , Jake Davis , Curt Davis , Harry Davis , Spud Day , Leon DeCinces, Doug Dempsey , Rick Dent , Bucky Derringer , Paul DiMaggio , Dom Dinneen , Bill Doak , Bill Donaldson, John Donlin , Mike Donovan , Bill Dooin , Red Downing, Bryan Doyle , Jack Doyle , Larry Dropo , Walt Duffy , Hugh Dugan , Joe Dunlap , Fred Dykes , Jimmy Earnshaw , George Easter, Luke Edwards , Hank Ehmke , Howard Elberfeld , Kid Elliott , Bob Elliott , Jumbo Ellis , Dock Enatsu , Yutaka Ennis, Del Ens , Jewel Erskine , Carl Evans , Darrell Evans , Dwight Evers , Johnny Face, Roy Fairly , Ron Falkenberg , Cy Ferrell , Rick Fingers , Rollie Fitzsimmons , Freddie Flanagan , Mike Fletcher , Art Flood , Curt Fonseca , Lew Forsch, Bob Foster , Eddie Foster , George Fraser , Chick Freehan, Bill Fregosi , Jim Furillo , Carl Galan , Augie Garner , Phil Garver, Ned Garvey , Steve Gelbert , Charlie Gleason , Kid Gomez , Lefty Gonzalez , Mike Gossage , Goose Gowdy , Hank Grant , Eddie Grantham , George Griffey, Sr, Ken Grimes , Burleigh Grimm , Charlie Grissom , Marv Groat, Dick Gromek , Steve Grove , Orval Guidry, Ron Gustine , Frank Haas , Mule Haddix, Harvey Hafey , Chick Hahn , Noodles Haines , Jesse Hallahan , Bill Harder , Mel Hargrave , Bubbles Hargrove , Mike Harrah , Toby Harrelson , Bud Harris , Bucky Harris , Vic Hatton , Grady Hearn , Jim Hebner , Richie Hegan , Jim Helms, Tommy Hemus , Solly Henrich , Tommy Herman , Babe Hernandez , Keith Herzog , Buck Hickman , Jim Higgins , Mike Hiller , John Hinchman , Bill Hodges, Gil Holmes , Tommy Holtzman , Ken Hooper , Harry Hooton, Burt Horton , Willie Hough, Charlie Houtteman , Art Howard , Frank Howard, Elston Hoy , Dummy Hoyt , Waite Hrabosky , Al Huggins , Miller Hunter , Catfish Hutchinson , Fred Irwin , Charlie Jackman , Will Jackson , Sonny Jensen , Jackie John , Tommy Johnson , Bob Johnson , Davey Johnson , Judy Jones , Charley Jones , Fielder Jones , Sam P. Jordan , Tim Jorgenson , Mike Joss , Addie Judge , Joe Jurges , Billy Kaat, Jim Kamm , Willie Kawakami , Tetsuharu Kell , George Keller , Charlie Keltner , Ken Kerr , Dickie Kessinger , Don Killefer , Bill Kilroy , Matt Kinder , Ellis Kingman , Dave Klein , Chuck Kling , Johnny Kluszewski, Ted Knabe , Otto Koosman , Jerry Koyama, Masaaki Kremer , Ray Kress , Red Kuenn, Harvey Kuhel , Joe Kuzava , Bob Lange , Bill Lanier , Hal Larkin , Henry Larsen, Don Latham , Arlie Lavagetto , Cookie Law, Vern Lazzeri , Tony Leach , Freddy Leach , Tommy Lee , Bill Lee , Bill (Spaceman) Leever , Sam Leonard , Dennis Leonard , Emil (Dutch) Lewis , Duffy Lewis, Buddy Lindstrom , Freddie Lobert , Hans Lockman , Whitey Lolich, Mickey Lollar, Sherm Lombardi , Ernie Lonborg , Jim Long , Herman Lopat , Ed Lopes , Davey Lopez , Al Lowe , Bobby Lowenstein , John Lucas , Red Lundy , Dick Luque , Dolf Luzinski, Greg Lyle , Sparky Lyons , Denny Madlock , Bill Maglie , Sal Maloney, Jim Mancuso , Gus Manush , Heinie Maranville , Rabbit Marberry , Firpo Marion , Marty Maris, Roger Marquard , Rube Marshall , Mike G. Martin , Morrie Martin , Pepper Mathews , Bobby May , Lee Mays , Carl Mazeroski , Bill McAleer , Jimmy McCarthy , Tommy McCarver , Tim McCormick , Frank McCormick , Jim McDaniel , Lindy McDougald, Gil McGowan , Bill McGraw , Tug McInnis , Stuffy McLain , Denny McLean , Larry McMahon, Don McManus , Marty McMillan, Roy McNally , Dave McVey , Cal Meadows , Lee Messersmith , Andy Meusel , Bob Miksis , Eddie Milan , Clyde Millan , Felix Miller , Bing Miller , Dots Miller , Hack Monday , Rick Money , Don Monroe , Bill Moon, Wally Moore , Jo-Jo Moore , Terry Moran , Pat Mostil , Johnny Mota, Manny Mulcahy , Hugh Mullane , Tony Mungo , Van Munson , Thurman Murcer , Bobby Murphy , Danny Murray , Red Myer , Buddy Nehf , Art Nettles , Graig Newcombe , Don Newsom , Bobo Nicholson , Bill Niekro , Joe Northey , Ron O'Doul , Lefty Oeschger , Joe O'Farrell , Bob O'Leary , Charlie Oliva, Tony Oliver , Al O'Neill , Steve O'Neill , Tip Orr , Dave Pabor , Charlie Pafko , Andy Parker , Dave Parrish , Larry Pascual, Camilo Paskert , Dode Pearson , Monte Peckinpaugh , Roger Peitz , Heinie Pennock , Herb Perdue , Hub Perez , Tony Perkins , Cy Perranoski , Ron Perry , Jim Pesky , Johnny Petrocelli, Rico Phillippe , Deacon Pierce , Billy Pike , Lip Piniella, Lou Pinson, Vada Pipp , Wally Podres, Johnny Poles , Spotswood Porterfield , Bob Powell , Boog Power , Vic Pruett , Hub Quinn , Jack Quisenberry , Dan Raschi , Vic Raymond , Bugs Redding , Dick Reiser , Pete Remsen , Jack Reuschel , Rick Reynolds , Allie Rice , Del Rice , Jim Rice , Sam Richard, J R Richardson , Bobby Richardson , Hardy Ring , Jimmy Ritchey , Claude Rivers , Mickey Rixey , Eppa Robertson , Dave Roe , Preacher Rolfe , Red Rommel , Eddie Root , Charlie Rosen, Al Roush , Edd Rucker , Nap Rudolph , Dick Ruel , Muddy Russell , Bill Ryan , Jimmy Sain , Johnny Sanguillen , Manny Sauer , Hank Schacht , Al Schaefer , Germany Schalk , Ray Schang , Wally Schoendienst , Red Schreckengost , Ossie Schulte , Frank Scott , Everett Scott , George Scott , Jack Selkirk , George Severeid , Hank Sewell , Joe Sewell , Luke Sewell , Rip Seymour , Cy Shantz, Bobby Sheckard , Jimmy Sherdel , Bill Shocker , Urban Short , Chris Siebert , Sonny Sievers , Roy Simmons, Curt Singleton , Ken Sisti , Sibby Smith , Earl Smith , Reggie Smith , Sherry Sparks , Tully Speier, Chris Stahl , Jake Stanky , Eddie Stanley , Mickey Staub , Rusty Steinfeldt , Harry Stephens , Vern Stephenson , Riggs Stottlemyre , Mel Street , Gabby Suhr , Gus Sukeforth , Clyde Sundberg , Jim Sutter , Bruce Sweeney , Bill Tannehill , Jesse Taylor , Ben Tebbetts , Birdie Tekulve, Kent Tenace , Gene Tenney , Fred Thevenow , Tommy Thomas , Ira Thomson , Bobby Thornton , Andre Tiernan , Mike Tinker , Joe Tobin , Jim Toney , Fred Torgeson, Earl Torrez , Mike Travis, Cecil Trouppe , Quincy Trout , Dizzy Trucks , Virgil Turner , Terry Uhle , George Valo , Elmer Van Haltren , George Vander Meer , Johnny Veach , Bobby Vernon , Mickey Walberg , Rube Walker , Harry Walters , Bucky Wambsganss , Bill Waner , Lloyd Warfield , Frank Warneke , Lon Watson , Bob Welch , Mickey Werber , Billy Wertz, Vic West , Sam Westrum , Wes White , Sol White , Will White, Frank Whitehill , Earl Williams , Cy Williams , Ken Williamson , Ned Willis , Vic Wills, Maury Wilson , Hack Wilson , Jim Wilson , Jimmie Winfield , Dave Witt , Whitey Wood , Joe Wood , Wilbur Wright , Glenn Wyatt , Whit Yamamoto , Koji Yeager , Steve Yerkes , Steve York , Rudy Young , Pep Youngs , Ross Zachary , Tom Zimmer , Chief
Code:Abe , Iso Ashford, Emmet Autry, Gene Bancroft , Frank Barlick, Al Berger , Sy Brickhouse , Jack Buck , Jack Bulkely , Morgan Busch , Augie Cambria , Joe Campbell , Jim Canel, Buck Caray, Harry Carrigan, Bill Caylor , O. P. Chandler, Happy Chylak , Nestor Conlan , Jocko Cooper , Andy Cummings , Candy Dark , Alvin Davids , Bob Dinneen , Bill Doubleday , Abner Dreyfuss , Barney Dyer , Eddie Dykes , Jimmy Elias , Al Munro Evans, Billy Feller, Sherm Fergsuon, Bob Fetzer, John Foster , John B. Fowler, Bud Fullerton , Hugh Giles , Warren Gleason , Kid Gonzalez , Mike Gowdy , Curt Grimm, Charlie Haak , Howie Haney , Fred Harridge, Willie Harris , Bucky Harris, Vic Harvey, Doug Harwell, Ernie Hemond , Roland Herzog, Whitey Heydler, John Hillerich , John Hodges, Gil Hodges, Russ Houk , Ralph Howsam, Bob Hubbard , Cal Hutchinson , Fred Jobe , Frank Krichell, Paul Kuenn , Harvey Kuhn , Bowie Lanigan, Ernest Lardner , Ring Leavitt, Jr. , Charles W. Luque , Dolf MacPhail, Lee Manley , Effa Martin , Billy Mauch , Gene McCarthy , Tommy McGowan, Bill Mills , A. G. Mizuhara, Shigeru Moran , Pat Murnane, Tim Murtaugh, Danny Mutrie , Jim Navin , Frank Nelson , Lindsey Norworth, Jack O'Day, Hank O'Doul, Lefty O'Neill, Steve Osborn , Frank Pasquel, Jorge Patkin, Max Pesky , Johnny Pompez , Alex Pulliam, Harry Ramirez, Felo Reese , Jimmie Rice, Grantland Richards, Paul Ritter , Lawrence Robinson , Wilbert Schoendienst, Red Scully, Vin Sewell , Luke Sheppard, Bob Smith, Red Stallings , George Steinbrenner, George Street, Gabby Tanner , Chuck Thayer , Ernest Tyson, Ty van der Ahe, Chris Virdon, Bill Warfield , Frank Weyer , Lee Williams , Dick Wilson , Horace Wrigley, Phil Yawkey, Tom
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
My ballot
Players
1. George Brett
2. Charlie Keller
3. Perucho Cepeda
4. Cupid Childs
5. Sal Bando
6. Quincy Trouppe
7. Masaaki Koyama
8. Rick Reuschel
9. Bill Freehan
10. Hugh Duffy
11. Reggie Smith
12. Keith Hernandez
Contributors
1. Vic Harris
2. Iso Abe
3. Dick Williams
4. Vin Scully
5. Bob Ferguson
George Brett goes right to the top of my player list. Reggie Smith and Keith Hernandez fill in the bottom two rungs of my dozen players. As for the contributors, Bob Ferguson joins the list, leaving Al Munro Elias (probably next from the holdover contributors), Steinbrenner and Murnane in my contributor queue.
Last edited by jalbright; 05-08-2011 at 10:21 AM.
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Registered User
Players:
1. George Brett
2. Reggie Smith
3. Jimmy Sheckard
4. Sal Bando
5. Cal McVey
6. Rick Reuschel
7. Perucho Cepeda
8. Keith Hernandez
9. Rabbit Maranville
10. Urban Shocker
11. Wally Schang
12. Hugh Duffy
Contributors:
1. Bob Ferguson
2. O.P. Caylor
3. Al Munro Elias
4. Iso Abe
5. Vin Scully
Harry Caray, Happy Chandler, Jocko Conlan, Candy Cummings, Bill Dinneen, Bud Fowler, Vic Harris, Gil Hodges, Ring Lardner, Billy Martin, Shigeru Mizuhara, Tim Murnane, Lefty O'Doul, Red Schoendienst, George Steinbrenner, Dick Williams all being strongly considered at this point on the contributor side.
My queued up players are Charley Jones, Quincy Trouppe, Bill Freehan, Edd Roush, Lou Brock, Hardy Richardson.
I'm unlikely to add a new pitcher anytime soon, unless a strong newcomer emerges as the carryovers go Jack Quinn, Burleigh Grimes, Bruce Sutter, Dan Quisenberry, Eppa Rixey, Don Newcombe, Ron Guidry, Catfish Hunter, Harry Brecheen, Chief Bender.
In my consideration set on the players side are Luis Aparicio, Dave Bancroft, Jake Beckley, Chief Bender, Wally Berger, Max Bishop, Bobby Bonds, Bob Boone, Harry Brecheen, Pete Browning, Lou Brock, Cesar Cedeno, Orlando Cepeda, Cupid Childs, Dave Concepcion, Lave Cross, Leon Day, Dwight Evans, Bill Freehan, Steve Garvey, Burleigh Grimes, Ron Guidry, Dummy Hoy, Catfish Hunter, Fielder Jones, Joe Kelley, Tommy Leach, Thurman Munson, Graig Nettles, Don Newcombe, Tony Perez, Lip Pike, Spotswood Poles, Jack Quinn, Dan Quisenberry, Sam Rice, Hardy Richardson, Eppa Rixey, Edd Roush, Joe Sewell, Rusty Staub, Bruce Sutter, Quincy Trouppe, George Van Haltren. Some may make my ballot, some may not depending on who we are looking at in terms of newcomers.
Bleed the Freak
Top returnees by 1997 voting along with intriguing candidate Keith Hernandez - analysis using Sean Smith's WAR and Bill James's WSAB.
WAR
1.00 3.00 5.00 7.00 10.0 13.0 15.0 Tot First Last
8.00 18.1 27.1 34.6 39.4 39.4 39.4 39.4 Addie Joss
6.70 18.6 28.0 35.5 43.5 49.4 50.9 50.9 Edd Roush
7.40 20.6 32.8 44.2 52.7 54.2 54.2 54.2 Charlie Keller
5.10 15.3 23.4 29.1 35.4 40.3 41.8 41.8 Lou Brock
10.2 21.5 31.0 39.8 49.6 58.3 62.3 65.2 Dwight Evans
6.00 16.0 24.0 31.6 40.8 47.8 51.6 56.1 Eppa Rixey
7.00 20.2 29.8 36.7 44.4 48.5 48.7 48.7 Burleigh Grimes
5.60 15.7 23.6 30.8 39.4 46.3 49.6 50.7 Luis Aparicio
6.10 16.8 26.5 35.2 47.6 58.0 63.4 68.6 Jake Beckley
7.90 21.2 29.6 36.4 45.3 52.1 54.4 54.9 Jimmy Sheckard
7.20 17.6 26.8 34.8 41.0 41.2 41.2 41.2 Wally Berger
8.80 24.0 35.3 43.5 50.0 54.8 55.3 55.3 Bill Freehan
9.00 20.7 29.2 36.7 46.9 54.7 57.7 60.1 Darrell Evans
8.80 20.0 30.6 40.9 52.3 61.5 65.7 67.9 Rick Reuschel
6.30 17.9 28.2 37.6 50.5 59.3 63.7 65.2 Reggie Smith
8.90 22.5 34.5 45.5 57.2 61.3 61.4 61.4 Sal Bando
8.30 22.6 34.4 43.3 50.6 51.6 51.6 51.6 Cupid Childs
7.60 20.2 30.9 40.4 52.1 57.7 57.7 57.7 Urban Shocker
7.20 20.6 32.8 43.3 55.9 63.6 63.9 63.9 Keith Hernandez
WSAB
21.0 53.3 77.00 95.60 107.8 107.8 107.8 107.8 Addie Joss
22.0 60.6 91.60 112.7 140.8 157.7 162.6 162.6 Edd Roush
23.2 67.3 105.4 137.7 160.0 165.4 165.4 165.4 Charlie Keller
18.1 52.7 76.40 96.60 123.8 141.5 147.0 147.0 Lou Brock
25.7 60.3 85.00 105.0 128.5 146.5 155.5 166.0 Dwight Evans
16.3 45.7 70.00 93.20 121.1 140.3 151.8 166.5 Eppa Rixey
20.5 56.5 87.30 105.4 129.6 144.9 145.6 145.6 Burleigh Grimes
7.50 19.5 29.00 37.20 46.10 50.10 51.20 51.20 Luis Aparicio
12.9 36.1 57.80 77.10 103.8 127.1 141.1 155.3 Jake Beckley
23.1 63.9 92.00 115.7 146.8 169.7 174.9 173.7 Jimmy Sheckard
24.8 61.8 88.30 107.1 127.8 128.2 128.2 128.2 Wally Berger
22.4 59.2 89.10 109.3 125.1 131.7 133.4 133.4 Bill Freehan
17.2 47.8 73.90 96.30 124.5 148.8 156.7 165.4 Darrell Evans
17.5 41.0 61.60 80.00 102.3 121.2 125.2 126.4 Rick Reuschel
18.4 49.0 77.40 103.6 137.0 162.6 172.3 172.3 Reggie Smith
20.6 52.8 75.20 95.40 117.9 122.8 122.8 122.8 Sal Bando
20.0 55.6 80.80 100.9 113.9 114.2 114.2 114.2 Cupid Childs
17.3 46.6 75.10 96.10 123.7 131.1 131.1 131.1 Urban Shocker
21.0 57.5 90.90 118.4 149.8 167.2 167.9 167.9 Keith Hernandez
General interpretation of WAR values:
Tier 1 - Reuschel, Bando, Hernandez, Dwight Evans
Tier 2 - Keller (who could move at or near the top with MLE credit for his outstanding minor league performance/block by Yankees - larger bump in WWII credit)
Tier 2 - Smith, Beckley, Freehan - ~30% catching bonus, Shocker.
Tier 3 - Darrell Evans, Childs, Sheckard
Tier 4 - Roush, Grimes
Tier 5 - Rixey, Aparicio, Berger, Joss
Tier 6 - Brock
If you are a Peak fan, you can nudge Freehan, Bando, Childs, Dwight Evans, Hernandez, and Keller to the front of the pack.
If you are a prime fan, you can nudge Hernandez, Bando, Freehan, Childs, Keller, Reuschel, and Shocker to the front of the pack.
If you are a pure career guy, Beckley, Reuschel, Dwight Evans, Smith, and Hernandez standout.
General interpretation of WSAB values:
By WSAB: Overall
Win Shares looks quite favorably on OF.
Tier 1 - Keller, Sheckard
Tier 2 - Hernandez, Roush, Smith, Dwight Evans
Tier 3 - Grimes, Darrell Evans, Freehan
Tier 4 - Berger, Brock, Rixey
Tier 5 - Shocker, Bando, Childs
Tier 6 - Beckley, Joss, Reuschel
Tier 7 - Aparicio
If you are a peak fan, you'll have interest in Keller, Sheckard, Berger, Roush, Dwight Evans, and Freehan.
If you are a prime fan, look at Hernandez, Keller, Sheckard, Roush, Berger, Freehan, and Dwight Evans.
If you are a career fan, interest in Sheckard, Smith, Hernandez, Keller, Roush, and the Evans boys makes sense.
BOTH SYSTEMS AGREE: Keller, Hernandez, Dwight Evans, and Reggie Smith are strong candidates.
Last edited by Jar of Flies; 05-07-2011 at 03:31 PM.
Bleed the Freak
Additional thoughts/interpretations of the WAR/WSAB figures:
While Sal Bando looks sweet as roses, Dan Rosenheck at the Hall of Merit has an analysis caution his take on value:
He goes on to explain why he supports Bert Campaneris for his ballot instead, who I have as a bubble candidate, but whom I don't expect anyone else to vote for:http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/...hall_of_merit/
37. David Concepcion de la Desviacion Estandar (Dan R) Posted: November 24, 2009 at 09:07 PM (#3396192)
I'm going to take this opportunity to compare and contrast three players that my system and CHONE's strongly disagree on: Sal Bando, Willie Davis, and Dagoberto Campaneris. I hope a close analysis will help illuminate the differences between CHONE's methodology and mine (although it is worth emphasizing that a cursory comparison of our rankings shows that the systems are extremely similar). I have converted his numbers to a comparable format to mine--raw hitting, GIDP, and ROE are subsumed under batting; TZ, ifDP, OFarm, and Catch are subsumed under fielding, the subcategories are converted from runs to wins, and seasons are straight-line adjusted to 162 games. I have also adjusted my BWAA and Replc to use the pitchers-removed average as league average for non-DH years, to mirror CHONE's accounting.
Glossary
SFrac: Percentage of the league average plate appearances per lineup slot for that season, a measure of playing time (greater than 1 for leadoff men, etc.)
RBWAA: Rosenheck batting wins above average.
RBRWAA: Rosenheck baserunning wins above average.
RFWAA: Rosenheck fielding wins above average.
RRepl: Wins above average a replacement player would have accumulated in the same playing time, according to Rosenheck.
RWARP1: Rosenheck total wins above replacement, unadjusted for standard deviations.
LgAdj: Ratio of the 2005 standard deviation to the regression-projected standard deviation of the league-season in question.
RWARP2: Rosenheck total wins above replacement, adjusted for standard deviations.
SBWAA: Smith batting wins above average.
SBRWAA: Smith baserunning wins above average.
SFWAA: Smith fielding wins above average
SRepl: Wins above average a replacement player would have accumulated in the same playing time, according to Smith.
SWARP1: Smith total wins above replacement, unadjusted for standard deviations.
TXBR: Totals, excluding sub-replacement seasons.
Sal Bando
YEAR SFrac RBWAA RBRWAA RFWAA RRepl RWARP1 LgAdj RWARP2 | SBWAA SBRWAA SFWAA SRepl SWARP1
1967 0.22 -0.5 0.1 0.1 -0.4 0.0 0.985 0.0 | -0.2 0.0 0.7 -0.5 1.0
1968 1.01 0.7 0.2 0.6 -1.8 3.4 1.003 3.4 | 0.7 0.1 -0.1 -2.5 3.2
1969 1.08 5.2 -0.2 -0.6 -1.8 6.3 0.948 6.0 | 6.1 0.1 0.2 -2.5 8.9
1970 0.93 3.3 -0.4 -0.4 -1.7 4.3 0.949 4.1 | 3.0 0.1 0.4 -2.6 6.2
1971 0.95 3.2 -0.3 -0.5 -1.8 4.2 0.962 4.0 | 3.0 -0.1 0.7 -2.7 6.3
1972 0.99 1.6 0.2 0.9 -2.0 4.8 0.970 4.7 | 1.1 0.2 1.1 -2.7 5.1
1973 1.00 4.5 0.0 -1.7 -2.1 4.9 0.947 4.6 | 5.2 0.1 -0.7 -2.8 7.3
1974 0.89 2.7 0.4 -1.4 -1.8 3.5 0.963 3.4 | 3.2 0.1 -0.4 -2.4 5.3
1975 0.97 0.3 0.2 0.4 -2.0 2.9 0.943 2.7 | 0.3 0.2 0.5 -2.6 3.6
1976 0.94 2.4 0.2 0.3 -2.1 5.0 0.948 4.7 | 2.7 0.1 0.2 -2.7 5.7
1977 0.97 0.3 0.1 -0.1 -2.2 2.6 0.907 2.4 | -0.3 0.4 0.7 -2.2 3.0
1978 0.93 2.7 0.1 0.7 -2.2 5.7 0.919 5.2 | 2.4 0.1 0.9 -2.3 5.8
1979 0.79 -1.3 0.1 -0.5 -1.8 0.1 0.913 0.1 | -1.4 0.0 -0.3 -1.8 0.1
1980 0.42 -1.4 -0.1 -0.3 -1.0 -0.8 0.929 -0.7 | -1.2 -0.1 -0.3 -0.8 -0.8
1981 0.16 -0.3 0.0 -0.3 -0.3 -0.3 0.950 -0.3 | 0.0 -0.2 0.0 -0.2 0.0
TOTL 12.25 23.4 0.6 -2.8 -25.0 46.6 0.951 44.3 | 24.7 1.2 3.7 -31.1 60.7
TXBR 11.67 25.1 0.7 -2.2 -23.7 47.7 0.950 45.3 | 25.9 1.3 4.0 -30.3 61.5
AVRG 1.00 1.9 0.0 -0.2 -2.0 3.8 0.951 3.6 | 2.0 0.1 0.3 -2.5 5.0
Sean and I clearly see Bando's offense the same way. We have a significant but not enormous disagreement on his fielding---Sean sees him as a slightly above average fielder, me as a slightly below one. (I'm really not sure what to make of this, since SFR thinks Bando was a brilliant 3B and DRA a meaningfully below average one; the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle). And we have a yawning gap on the intrinsic value of playing third base. I see 3B during Bando's prime as a dead mid-spectrum position, no different than it is today, while Sean has it as glove position, not far from where he puts modern SS. (Note that my view and Sean's converge starting in around 1977).
Dagoberto Campaneris
YEAR SFrac RBWAA RBRWAA RFWAA RRepl RWARP1 LgAdj RWARP2 | SBWAA SBRWAA SFWAA SRepl SWARP1
1964 0.42 -0.6 0.2 -0.5 -1.7 0.9 0.983 0.9 | -0.4 0.0 -0.7 -0.9 -0.2
1965 0.94 0.5 0.3 -1.4 -3.7 3.2 0.977 3.1 | -0.3 0.2 -1.2 -1.8 0.5
1966 0.91 -0.3 0.9 -0.6 -3.7 3.7 0.999 3.7 | 0.4 1.0 -0.5 -2.7 3.5
1967 0.97 -0.9 0.7 -0.8 -4.1 3.2 0.985 3.2 | -0.5 0.3 -0.8 -2.6 1.6
1968 1.06 1.9 0.6 0.7 -4.5 7.6 1.003 7.6 | 1.5 0.3 1.0 -3.1 5.9
1969 0.86 -1.9 1.2 0.1 -4.0 3.3 0.948 3.1 | -1.3 1.0 1.1 -2.3 3.1
1970 0.95 1.4 0.6 1.0 -4.5 7.4 0.949 7.0 | 1.3 0.3 1.0 -3.0 5.6
1971 0.91 -1.7 0.7 0.3 -4.2 3.4 0.962 3.3 | -1.5 0.8 1.0 -2.6 2.9
1972 1.05 -1.7 1.1 1.7 -4.6 5.8 0.970 5.6 | -1.1 0.7 1.5 -3.1 4.2
1973 0.97 -1.4 0.4 1.8 -4.4 5.3 0.947 5.0 | -1.0 0.3 2.0 -2.9 4.2
1974 0.85 1.1 0.4 0.7 -3.9 6.1 0.963 5.9 | 1.6 0.4 0.7 -2.7 5.4
1975 0.84 -0.3 0.2 -0.2 -3.8 3.5 0.943 3.3 | -0.1 0.0 0.1 -2.6 2.6
1976 0.91 0.0 0.5 0.4 -4.0 5.0 0.948 4.7 | -0.1 0.3 0.9 -3.0 4.1
1977 0.89 -1.2 0.0 1.7 -4.1 4.6 0.907 4.2 | -1.1 -0.3 1.7 -3.0 3.3
1978 0.44 -2.4 0.3 -0.2 -2.0 -0.3 0.919 -0.3 | -2.5 0.2 0.0 -1.5 -0.8
1979 0.40 -1.6 -0.1 0.4 -1.8 0.5 0.913 0.5 | -1.1 0.1 -0.3 -1.3 0.0
1980 0.33 -0.6 -0.1 -0.4 -1.5 0.3 0.929 0.3 | -0.7 0.0 -0.5 -1.0 -0.2
1981 0.20 0.0 0.0 -0.7 -0.4 -0.2 0.950 -0.2 | -0.3 0.0 -0.3 -0.5 -0.2
1983 0.22 0.1 -0.4 -0.2 -0.6 0.1 0.954 0.1 | 0.3 -0.4 -0.3 -0.6 0.2
TOTL 14.12 -9.6 7.5 3.8 -61.5 63.4 0.962 61.0 | -6.8 5.1 6.4 -41.0 45.7
TXBR 13.48 -7.2 7.2 4.7 -59.1 63.9 0.962 61.5 | -2.9 4.9 7.9 -37.2 47.1
AVRG 1.00 -0.7 0.5 0.3 -4.4 4.5 0.962 4.3 | -0.5 0.4 0.5 -2.9 3.2
Once more, we have similar takes on overall value above average, with Sean slightly more kind to Campaneris. (It's worth noting here that SFR has Campaneris as an otherworldly +144 shortstop, and DRA also gives him a superb +109. With that kind of defense and baserunning value, Campaneris's case is far stronger than I make it here, where old BP FRAA and Fielding Win Shares thought he was merely good). It's that replacement level column that is night and day: Sean has SS a mere 2.5 runs per year more valuable in the 70's than it is today (which I think he himself recognizes is a fudge, due to the arbitrary +10 cap he places on positional adjustments...right, Sean? Kind of like Bill James's cap on Fielding WS). By contrast, as everyone in the HoM knows, I see 70's SS as the toughest position to fill at any point in MLB history. If you could even provide league-average offense at the position back then, you were an All-Star in my book. I have offered two potential explanations for this phenomenon: the mega-expansion of the 1960's, which hurt SS more than (say) LF/RF due to the intrinsic scarcity of the position, and the advent of turf ballparks.
As a reminder, I derive my positional weights by starting with Nate Silver's findings on the aggregate performance of Freely Available Talent (MLB players over age 27 earning less than twice the minimum salary), and adjusting them over time based on the performance of worst 3/8 of everyday players at each position. Sean gets his by studying the fielding of position-switchers over ten-year periods (e.g. 1970-1980).
Last edited by Jar of Flies; 05-07-2011 at 03:38 PM.
Bleed the Freak
More notes on high backlog candidates:
Jimmy Sheckard sailed into the Hall of Merit, and was ranked ahead/at the same level of Best of Baseball members among left fielders: Zack Wheat, Joe Kelley, Goose Goslin. He also placed ahead of Minnie Minoso, Joe Medwick, and Ralph Kiner. This assessment likely is concluded due to his excellent defensive value.
http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/..._tops_in_left/
Darrell Evans was voted as similar/marginally better than John Beckwith and Stan Hack by the Hall of Merit electorate among third basemen.
http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/...s_brett_boggs/
As mentioned in previous ballot threads, I am a believer in the WAR analysis of Rick Reuschel, which is confirmed by Hall of Merit founder Joe Dimino's Pennants Added analysis.
Bill Freehan will be debuting near the bottom of my ballot - hopefully I am giving him enough credit for filling the catcher position.
Edd Roush is off ballot, as I find him to be overrated due to his success in the weak NL of the 1910s, early 20s.
Urban Shocker will be debuting near the end of my ballot - he is impressive by WAR and PA statistics.
Childs is another intriguing player worth considering, especially for peak fans.
Beckley is the opposite of Childs, he's worth considering particularly for career voters.
Grimes looks real good by WSAB, but a fair bit short by WAR.
Berger and Brock are borderline by WSAB, but WS is favorable to accumulation of PA (Brock) and CF receiving defensive value (Berger), and are well out by WAR.
Rixey looks borderline or out by both systems.
Aparicio and Joss miss by both analysis.
Players receiving votes who I am a fan of:
Perucho Cepeda - based on Jalbright's analysis is a high quality candidate, HOM says to be careful, but that he may be a bit short. - I fall in between.
Masaaki Koyama - the translated statistics and comparisons to Best of Baseball hurlers are overwhelmingly impressive for Koyama by Jalbright.
Dick Lundy - new evidence that the HOM uncovered in 2008 showed him to be an excellent defender, and a capable contact hitter who took walks.
Don Newcombe - a career potentially over the line if you give him peak Korean war credit/blocked from majors/development credit with integration era. What a hitter!
Cal McVey - challenging to make a WAR/WSAB analysis for players as far back as him - HOM ranks him a smidge ahead of Freehan, Bresnahan, Trouppe, and Mackey among backstops? I could be convinced he's ballot worthy.
Quincy Trouppe - a challenging case to analyze, just off ballot and may deserve to be on.
Hardy Richardson - another strong candidate close to ballot - excellent 1880s 2B who might deserve more credit for time in International Association late 1870s.
Last edited by Jar of Flies; 05-07-2011 at 03:54 PM.
Bleed the Freak
1998 ballot:
1 George Brett
2 Charlie Keller
3 Rick Reuschel
4 Dwight Evans
5 Dick Lundy
6 Masaaki Koyama
7 Darrell Evans
8 Jimmy Sheckard
9 Reggie Smith
10 Don Newcombe
11 Bill Freehan
12 Keith Hernandez
Contributors:
1 Johnny Pesky
2 Vin Scully
3 Vic Harris
4 Doug Harvey
5 Al Munro Elias
Last edited by Jar of Flies; 05-08-2011 at 02:43 AM. Reason: Hat tip to jjpm74 - Brett was accidentially omitted
Registered User
Jar of Flies--is George Brett's absence from your ballot an oversight? He should be a no brainer at this point.
Registered User
Players:
1. George Brett
2. Addie Joss
3. Lou Brock
4. Jake Beckley
5. Edd Roush
6. Charlie Keller
7. Masaaki Koyama
8. Tony Mullane
9. Jimmy Sheckard
10. Keith Hernandez
11. Rick Reuschel
12. Ray Dandridge
Contributors:
1. Happy Chandler
2. Harry Caray
3. Vin Scully
4. Dick Williams
5. Bob Ferguson
I decided that Keller should have more support. I am really impressed with what he was able to accomplish in the time he played. He deserves to be in. Freehan is next on the list with Dwight Evans after him.
Last edited by TheMendozaLine; 05-08-2011 at 05:16 PM. Reason: Two #2's!
Registered User
1. George Brett
2. Charlie Keller
3. Dwight Evans
4. Darrell Evans
5. Cal McVey
6. Leroy Matlock
7. Lip Pike
8. Jimmy Sheckard
9. Keith Hernandez
10. Bill Freehan
11. Hardy Richardson
12. Johnny Pesky
2004 & 2007
Players:
1. George Brett
2. Addie Joss
3. Edd Roush
4. Wally Berger
5. Lou Brock
6. Perucho Cepeda
7. Luis Aparicio
8. Charlie Keller
9. Dwight Evans
10. Masaaki Koyama
11. Rick Reuschel
12. Eppa Rixey
Contributors:
1. Bob Ferguson
2. Vic Harris
3. Iso Abe
4. Vin Scully
5. Billy Evans
Researcher/advocate/mod
Unfortunately, you have 2 number 2's, which leads to a 13 man ballot. As it stands, I'd treat this as a valid ballot, with the second #2 becoming number 3 and everyone else moving down a slot and Trouppe dropping off the ballot. That said, I'd prefer you to confirm that approach or make your own changes. I'll also send you a PM on this.Originally Posted by TheMendozaLine
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Registered User
fixed!!!!!!!
1. George Brett
2. Lou Brock
3. Bill Freehan
4. Edd Roush
5. Frank Howard
6. Orlando Cepeda
7. Dewey Evans
8. Keith Hernandez
9. Cupid Childs
10. Dave Bancroft
11. Tommy Leach
12. Tony Perez
coming back soon: Ray Dandridge, Johnny Evers
coming up: Darrell Evans, Bando, Pinson, Maranville, Reggie Smith and Tommy John to name a few.
1. O.P. Caylor
2. Red Smith
3. Billy Evans
4. Tommy McCarthy
5. Bob Ferguson
a posse ad esse
Players
1. George Brett
2. Addie Joss
3. Eppa Rixey
4. Edd Roush
5. Joe Sewell
6. Rollie Fingers
7. Luis Aparicio
8. Keith Hernandez
9. Wally Berger
10. Bill Freehan
11. Billy Pierce
12. Reggie Smith
The two people on my list who were elected are replaced by Brett and Hernandez. Jim Wynn was #1 position player in my queue... that falls now to Graig Nettles.
Contributors
1. Al Munro Elias
2. Billy Martin
3. Billy Evans
4. Dick Williams
5. Vic Harris
Vic Harris and Red Schoendienst are two managers that have climbed up my charts because of their playing days. Harris will make it very soon. Please consider Schoendienst as a combo candidate (that's for player & manager, not as vet's committee member) in the mold of the newly elected Phil Rizzuto.
September 16, 2012: The Losing Streak Ends
OSHA-certified Moderator
1. George Brett
2. Edd Roush
3. Addie Joss
4. Keith Hernandez
5. Burleigh Grimes
6. Luis Aparicio
7. Lefty Gomez
8. Eppa Rixey
9. Jake Beckley
10. Lou Brock
11. Ray Dandridge
12. Tony Perez
Contributors
1. Billy Evans
2. O.P. Caylor
3. Vic Harris
4. Vin Scully
5. Dick Williams
Tom Tresh George Kell Mark Fidrych Bob Feller
Ernie Harwell Soupy Sales Alex Chilton Sparky Anderson
Joe Nuxhall Gary Carter MCA Emanuel Steward
Sonny Elliot Dave Brubeck Earl Weaver Stan Musial
Jonathan Winters Neil Armstrong Roger Ebert Anthony Zahler
Ray Manzarek
Registered User
01. George Brett
02. Eppa Rixey
03. Wally Berger
04. Jake Beckley
05. Burleigh Grimes
06. Addie Joss
07. Urban Shocker
08. Perucho Cepeda
09. Bill Freehan
10. Sal Bando
11. Luis Aparicio
12. Keith Hernandez
01. Frank Jobe
02. Vin Scully
03. Vic Harris
04. Lefty O'Doul
05. OP Caylor
Registered User
1 George Brett
2 Addie Joss
3 B Grimes
4 Eppa Rixey
5 Keith Hernandez
6 Ed Roush
7 Lou Brock
8 Luis Aparicio
9 Urban Shocker
10 Charlie Keller
11 Jake Beckley
12 Billy Pierce
Researcher/advocate/mod
We have a quorum on the player side, and are one vote shy of that mark on the contributor side.
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
carpe baseball
Players
1. George Brett
2. Charlie Keller
3. Dwight Evans
4. Perucho Cepeda
5. Masaaki Koyama
6. Rick Reuschel
7. Jimmy Sheckard
8. Reggie Smith
9. Cal McVey
10. Bill Freehan
11. Darrell Evans
12. Keith Hernandez
Contributors
1. O.P. Caylor
2. Iso Abe
3. Vic Harris
4. Dick Williams
5. Bob Ferguson
"When you have no basis for an argument, abuse the plaintiff." -- Cicero
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