Bad Time or Place

[The Commissioner]

We have often debated here many players that may not have deserved to, or put up the numbers to, go into the Hall had they not had the fortune of playing for an excellent ballclub or in a ballpark suited towards their strengths. On the other side of the coin, though, which ballplayers do you feel might have been enshrined in Cooperstown had they not had the misfortune of playing for miserable teams, in the wrong ballpark, or perhaps even the wrong era? Obviously many Negro Leaguers will immediately come to mind, but I am mostly referring to ML ballplayers that just were not fortunate enough to be wearing pinstripes or hitting at Coors Field.

[Brad Harris]

Bert Blyleven would be enshrined already if he'd had the good fortune (like Jack Morris) to have an October stage a little more often.

Some of the older leather-wielders (Bad Bill Dahlen, Ron Santo, Joe Gordon, Bobby Grich) might have been elected had their defensive prowess been shown off on ESPN's highlights every night.

Dick Allen may not have such a "character issue" - or so "few" home runs - if he'd played in the 1990s, not the 1960s.

Carl Mays would be in the Hall of Fame if Ray Chapman hadn't died in that beaning.

Don Mattingly would not be considered a serious candidate by most people if he'd played his career in Minnesota or Milwaukee or San Diego.

If Dom DiMaggio had a different last name and hadn't played in Boston, he wouldn't ever be mentioned as a candidate.

Conversely, if "Indian Bob" Johnson had been a Yankee with those RBI totals, he'd be enshrined already.

I think in the future you'll see some voters artificially downgradinga player's merits solely because he "switched" teams a lot: Robbie Alomar and Rickey Henderson should be shoo-ins and they might not be for this reason.

And, naturally, all the wonderful, talented black ballplayers who had the misfortune to play some or all of their careers in a segregated (or, in any case, very prejudiced) era. Minnie Minoso would definately be in already. Sam Jethroe would probably be there with him. You'd have at least another dozen negro league stars. Guys like Curt Flood, Dick Allen and Don Newcombe might have had a better major league career/image if they'd not had to fight against bigotry all their professional lives.

[The Commissioner]

Excellent examples.

I would also add Marty Marion in the leather wielders category. Many St. Louis fans old enough to remember him, still insist that he, and not Ozzie, is the greatest fielding shortstop the club ever had.

[bluezebra]

"If Dom DiMaggio had a different last name and hadn't played in Boston, he wouldn't ever be mentioned as a candidate. "

You obviously never saw Dom play centerfield. He was one of the, if not THE, best of his era. Even Joe admitted Dom was better than he was. Fielding pct. .978, 147 assists, 32 DPs.

He wasn't exactly an All-American out at the plate, either. Lifetime .298 (over .300 four times), scored 1046 runs (over 100 per year average), 308 doubles (over 30, seven times - 40 in 1948).

All-Star seven times.

Actually, if he played somewhere other than Boston (where he was overshadowed by Williams, Doerr, Foxx, Pesky, Grove, Parnell, et al, he might be a stronger candidate for the Hall. And if he wasn't Joe's kid brother, he wouldn't have always been compared to him.

Remember, baseball isn't all offense.

Bob

[Biggtone23]

The whole Yankees bias thing works both ways. Certain voters will vote for Yankees just because they were Yankees while others wont vote for them simply because they were Yankees. I honestly think that if Mattingly had played in another City and still put up the same type of stats, was still the best player in the game for 3 straight years, was still a team captain and the only difference was what uniform he wore he would get about the same amount of support. Remember up until the time of the back injury he was on the same path as Wade Boggs and Tony Gwynn who played in other cities (one big/one small) and are both sure fire 1st ballot hall of famers. Also with the timing if he had stuck around for the 1996 season and the Yankees still won the title he probably would have made it in by now.

As for other players any current player who relys on speed and defense and hitting singles came about 20 years too late. Any marginal pre cable/ESPN player.

[The Commissioner]

Bob, you bring up some excellent points. Playing in Boston may have served as a double whammy against Dom. Not only did he face comparisons to his brother, but he had to face comparisons to the guy playing alongside him in left field. I dare say, not many people already enshrined in Cooperstown could surmount that sort of scrutiny either.

[Fuzzy Bear]

My personal "Wrong Place, Wrong Time" team:

1B Norm Cash
2B Buddy Myer
3B Harlond Clift
SS Cecil Travis
LF Minnie Minoso
CF Vada Pinson
RF Tony Oliva
C Bill Freehan
P Wes Ferrell

[soberdennis]

The whole Yankees bias thing works both ways. Certain voters will vote for Yankees just because they were Yankees while others wont vote for them simply because they were Yankees. I honestly think that if Mattingly had played in another City and still put up the same type of stats, was still the best player in the game for 3 straight years, was still a team captain and the only difference was what uniform he wore he would get about the same amount of support. Remember up until the time of the back injury he was on the same path as Wade Boggs and Tony Gwynn who played in other cities (one big/one small) and are both sure fire 1st ballot hall of famers. Also with the timing if he had stuck around for the 1996 season and the Yankees still won the title he probably would have made it in by now.

As for other players any current player who relys on speed and defense and hitting singles came about 20 years too late. Any marginal pre cable/ESPN player.

I personally believe Donnie Baseball belongs in the HOF. But he, like many of the others mentioned, will probably have to wait until the Vets committee gets to consider him.
I have a friend who hates the Yanks so much, he doesn't think Joe Dimaggio belongs in the HOF.
I personally believe Dom does belong, and I hate the Red Sox.
Carl Mays probably does belong, but for the beaning.
IMO I think that it will be a travesty if Gwynn and Ripken are not joined by fellow first balloter Mark McGwire next year. But that is a whole different issue.

[mtortolero]

I think that Jose Cruz was a victim of the time (70's) and the park (Astrodome) where he played in his prime nad in other circuntances his acumulative numbers would be a lot better, probably to rise him as a borderline HOF. He and Jimmy Wyn were probably the most afected victims of the Astrodome.

[dgarza]

I think that Jose Cruz was a victim of the time (70's) and the park (Astrodome) where he played in his prime nad in other circuntances his acumulative numbers would be a lot better, probably to rise him as a borderline HOF. He and Jimmy Wyn were probably the most afected victims of the Astrodome.

More so than Cedeno and Davis...or about the same?

[mtortolero]

Cedeno is in fact a bordeline and had better peak years than Cruz but apart of the Astrodome factor he was affected by an strong injury just when he was reaching his prime years (he was practically done wityh 30 years old) and that affect a comparison with Cruz in the same terms. Similar happens with Glen Davies.

[yest]

swich Killerbrew (in the dead ball era his power would go way down and thus his walks) for Ed Walsh (his spitball(his only good pitch) was to wet not to be noticed) and neither becomes a regular

[mtortolero]

Joe DiMaggio hrs numbers was hurt by Yankee Stadium. He was in the right time and in the right team but not in the right park.

[soberdennis]

Joe DiMaggio hrs numbers was hurt by Yankee Stadium. He was in the right time and in the right team but not in the right park.

Definitely, but Dimagg got in and got in quickly. He was able to overcome the obstacles of his ballpark.

[rugbyfreak]

I personally believe Donnie Baseball belongs in the HOF. But he, like many of the others mentioned, will probably have to wait until the Vets committee gets to consider him.
I have a friend who hates the Yanks so much, he doesn't think Joe Dimaggio belongs in the HOF.
I personally believe Dom does belong, and I hate the Red Sox.
Carl Mays probably does belong, but for the beaning.
IMO I think that it will be a travesty if Gwynn and Ripken are not joined by fellow first balloter Mark McGwire next year. But that is a whole different issue.

About Carl Mays: In all the reading I have done on Mays, I have gathered that, while Mays was indeed a mean-spirited competitor who threw close by nature, I have never heard one of them say that the Chapman death was anything but a result of Mays' reckless negligence and lack of regard for a batter's safety. A bad enough quality to have, but far short of saying that he took any personal animus against Chapman to its ultimate conclusion.

In any event, whatever bad karma may have resulted from the Chapman beaning in the short term surely faded over time, and his undeniably HOF-worthy (if not necessarily electable) record would have been given a lot more consideration if Chapman were the only black mark. (To its discredit, baseball itself only half-reacted, as it immediately increased the mandatory number of fresh, white balls available for each game, but continuing to make helmets optional until, I believe, 1952!)

But the Mays legacy carried far more onerous baggage than Ray Chapman. You may be forgetting that, beginning with Game 4 of the '21 WS for the Yanks (a 4-2 loss, after leading 2-0 in the 8th), there was strong suspicion that Mays was on the take against the Giants that year (he also lost Game 7), and the next (lost his only start) and it followed him the rest of his career. This is spite of the fact that an official inquiry conducted by Judge Landis exonerated him, which is particularly telling, since Landis (in my opinion baseball's most embarrassing figurehead ever) had, as we all know, his own personal and arbitrary code of evidentiary procedure, which had one simple rule: Whatever was convenient to Landis and suited his needs, was what went down. Remember, we were just a couple short years removed from the Black Sox scandal, so it's safe to say that Landis would have banished Mays if he possibly could have.

Exonerated or not, however, we all know how these things work, and over time, if old timers believed that Mays was on the dirty in those WS, there would be no way they would ever let him in the HOF. Such things live with you forever. Throw in the fact that Mays was easily one of the most unpopular players of his time, and you have a Rose-like recipe for no f---ing way. As Ruth himself said about Mays, even as they co-anchored three WS winning teams in Boston, then played in three more with NY, "Mays was a first class horse's ass, and that's on the days when I loved him!"

[cup2006sensrule]

If Andre Dawson had been drafted by the Cubs in 1975 he would have been able to play in the park that best suited his swing and on regualr grass saving his knees. He would have had been able to play CF until maybe 1990, maybe won a couple more Gold Gloves, been in a bigger media market and his Home run numbers would have been off the chart. He hit 49 home runs in 1987 and by that time he wasn't near the player he was in the late 70's early 80's.

If someone had his stats in Wrigley field when he played for the Expos they would see he was deadly there. I remember the talk on the radio and TV of how the Hawk hit so well in Wrigley field for years before he went to Chicago.

I don't think it is a stretch to say Dawson would have hit 550 or more home runs if he played as a cub for his first 15 seasons. He would have likley stolen more bases too if his knees weren't chewed up from playing on the terrible astroturf in Montreal. Maybe 400+ SB's. All those years he got 23-30HR's and 80-90 RBI's in Montreal likley would all be 30-35 or more HR seasons (leading the NL at least a few more times) and 100+ RBI seasons. I think he would top 1800 or more RBI's easily if he had played in Chicago.

Dawson may or may not make the HOF as it is, if he was a Cub from the start he would be a sure fire no doubt Hall of Famer.

[rugbyfreak]

I think, in the category of, "If not for his untimely injury, what heights could he have scaled?" the two that stand out far above the others are:

--Herb Score, 1957
--Tony C., 1967

Anybody who faced Score or who saw him pitch will tell you that, this was The Greatest Ever in the making. He was Koufax, with one huge difference: He had dominant command and polish from Year One. By age 23, following his second year ('56), he was already a two-time All-Star, a 20-game winner, Rookie of the Year, and two-time strikeout champ. He was a seamless replacement for Bob Feller, who retired after '56. Then came the McDougald line drive early in '57.

Meanwhile, Tony C., in August of '67, was already in his fourth full season at age 22, had just played in his first All-Star game, was already an AL home run champ ('65), and had recently hit his 100th career homer, becoming the youngest in history to do so (which he still holds?). Much more than being a very good ballplayer, however, he had already become, through his looks and personality (and having cut a couple of pop records) a Boston sex and cult hero who was well on his way to replacing the staid, stolid Yaz as the official Local Hero (Yaz' absolutely sick '67 season would reset that meter, of course). Finally, he and Yaz were leading the Sawx out of decades of baseball misery that year, into a pennant race for the ages, which they would tragically have to finish without him, thanks to (but through no real fault of) Wild Jack Hamilton.

Interestingly, these two cases are not only quite similar in how they cut down two very young stars, but even more eerily, the injuries are almost identical: trauma to the face and eye socket, taking nearly a year to heal. Also, each comeback was thoroughly frustrating for fans, but in very different ways.

After sitting out an entire season ('68), Conig appeared to have made it back all the way, hitting 20 homers in '69 and then having his best year by far in '70, (36 HR, 116 RBI). But the dirty little secret was that his vision was far from right, and perhaps knowing this, Boston shockingly traded him after that '70 season, and he quickly fell out of baseball.

The thing about Score that will always vex fans is that his facial injury, while severe, seemed to have healed fully, and anyway, should have had nothing to do with his still-young left arm. But Score spent the next six years, the last three with Chicago, trying to regain that form of '55 and '56, and never came close. Herb himself has spent his whole life trying, with no more luck than your average fan, to account for it. "I'll never understand it," he has said, time and again. "My arm felt just as live, at least at first, but something was missing." Later, whether related or not to his facial injury, he developed arm problems, and that was it. To his credit, rather than wallow in it, he moved on and became one of baseball's most beloved broadcasters (White Sox) and legendary yarn-spinners. For fans, he lives on as a so-good-so-young pitching prodigy matched in baseball history only by Doc Gooden.

That's it--thanks for listening!

freak

[Fuzzy Bear]

Cedeno is in fact a bordeline and had better peak years than Cruz but apart of the Astrodome factor he was affected by an strong injury just when he was reaching his prime years (he was practically done wityh 30 years old) and that affect a comparison with Cruz in the same terms. Similar happens with Glen Davies.

Hmmm . . .

Cedeno was in the big leagues at 19 and just about done at 30???

Birth certificates, anyone?

[WJackman]

[QUOTE=rugbyfreak]I think, in the category of, "If not for his untimely injury, what heights could he have scaled?" the two that stand out far above the others are:

--Herb Score, 1957
--Tony C., 1967


Meanwhile, Tony C., in August of '67, was already in his fourth full season at age 22, had just played in his first All-Star game, was already an AL home run champ ('65), and had recently hit his 100th career homer, becoming the youngest in history to do so (which he still holds?).

Actually I believe it is still Mel Ott, by a few months over Tony C., as the youngest player to hit 100 homers.

[rugbyfreak]

[QUOTE=WJackman]

I think, in the category of, "If not for his untimely injury, what heights could he have scaled?" the two that stand out far above the others are:

--Herb Score, 1957
--Tony C., 1967


Meanwhile, Tony C., in August of '67, was already in his fourth full season at age 22, had just played in his first All-Star game, was already an AL home run champ ('65), and had recently hit his 100th career homer, becoming the youngest in history to do so (which he still holds?).

Actually I believe it is still Mel Ott, by a few months over Tony C., as the youngest player to hit 100 homers.

You got it, wjack. Thanks! I do all of these off the cuff and mistakes are inevitable. Now that I think about it, TC was baseball's youngest HR champ.
I still think about Score, even though I never saw him pitch. I know several older guys who call him the greatest they ever saw. Still others say it about Gooden, whom I saw many times, having lived in NYC for 20 years, and when I think back on him, can only say...WOW! And then I think where he's at now...

[mtortolero]

Looking at Sal Bando's figures and Ron Santo's splts in Wrigley and away, looks as Bando was the player in the wrong place and time (era).

[Eastvanmungo]

If we are including injuries here... I've always been fascinated by Karl Spooner. At one time he was a more highly rated prospect than Sandy Koufax. As a rookie in 1954 he started 2 games for the Dodgers and pitched 2 complete game shutouts... striking out 27. In 1955 he suffered a serious arm injury in spring training and was never the same again.

To specifically answer the OP, I'd nominate Bill Freehan who would have put up much more spectacular batting numbers if he hadn't spent so much of his career in the pitching dominated era.

[Seattle1]

A lot of people say that if the Mariners had started playing Edgar Martinez regularly earlier in his career, his numbers would be much farther up there. Therefore, the "he was only a DH" argument against him would be somewhat more diminished.

[RedSoxVT92]

Frank Howard got the short end of the stick because of the parks he played in and the time he played in. His first team was the Dogers and played in Dogers Stadium. A huge Pitchers park. The park factor was around 92-94 during his time there. Then he went to the Senators who played in yet another pitchers park, R.F.K. stadium. He also played in the 60's, a great pitching era. And dont forget his height. He was around 6'7 and that would work against him because of the very large strikezone. Pitchers could use that to there advantage hence the high strikeout totals. And even with this he still was a great power hitter. Had he played in a more offensive time and in a hitters park he would most certainly be a HoFer.