10U All-Stars - SS vs. 3B

[Jesse]

Little dilemma on my son's 10U All-Star team. We don't have a good SS! Well, we do, but they're playing elsewhere on the field.

We do have a really solid third baseman who could also play a pretty decent SS if needed, but then we'd be weak at third...unless we bring our catcher out to third, which means our best pitcher (who we really want in the OF when not pitching) has to come in and catch...which puts us down an outfielder...assuming he's not pitching...you see the dilemma.

The coach has decided to go with a really strong OF on the assumption that good hitters usually put the ball in the OF. I like the strategy, but even if I didn't I don't think I could sway him on this point. So the two outfielders we have who could play SS are pretty much off limits.

Obviously we all know how important the SS is, but at this level you can get a lot of outs at third on steals, rundowns, etc. if you've got a good catcher and a good third baseman. Also a lot of hard hits down the line due to quicker bats. A weak third baseman can kill you, especially if the catcher likes to throw (both of ours do).

What do you guys think? Any words of wisdom? I hate to be weak at SS, but we might just have to suck it up and let our OF pick up the slack. I really don't want to be weak at third.

[The Uncoach]

I would want my best players in the positions where they are going to be getting the most touches. 1, 2, 6 and 3.

[JCincy]

In my limited experience more balls are hit to SS than to 3B and he has more ground to cover. The SS has more responsibilities than the 3B. He covers second on balls hit to the right side. He may be taking throws from the catcher at second. He's also might be the cutoff / relay for throws from the outfield. Therefore I would put the better player at SS over 3B.

I really don't like using a kid to play catcher and then pitch in the same game. That's a lot of throwing. In addition the throwing motion for a catcher is significantly different from a pitcher.

[skipper5]

My goal in 10u allstars is "throw strikes, turn groundballs into outs"

[Ursa Major]

Uncoach said: I would want my best players in the positions where they are going to be getting the most touches. 1, 2, 6 and 3.

Don't think I've seen a more succinct, accurate post on this Board. Uncoach says it all. Sometimes common sense is pretty simple to follow.

We do have a really solid third baseman who could also play a pretty decent SS if needed, but then we'd be weak at third...unless we bring our catcher out to third, which means our best pitcher (who we really want in the OF when not pitching) has to come in and catch...which puts us down an outfielder...assuming he's not pitching...you see the dilemma.

Obviously we all know how important the SS is, but at this level you can get a lot of outs at third on steals, rundowns, etc. if you've got a good catcher and a good third baseman. Also a lot of hard hits down the line due to quicker bats. A weak third baseman can kill you, especially if the catcher likes to throw (both of ours do).

What do you guys think? Any words of wisdom? I hate to be weak at SS, but we might just have to suck it up and let our OF pick up the slack. I really don't want to be weak at third.

Unless there's something really bizarre about your all-star competition (say, you have weak pitching combined with opponents' huge hitting), the difference between a great outfielder and a solid all-star level outfielder will be maybe one extra out and one fewer base advanced every other game or so. Compare that to the difference between a top SS and a competent one -- that'll likely make the difference in several plays per game.

In 10u, the difference between good and very good third basemen in catching throws from the catcher and in handling rundowns is minimal, and 3B usually gets few grounders because not many 10u players are dead pull hitters. Heck, in 10u ball (albeit rec ball) we used to bury our weakest fielders at 3B for an inning or two so as to give them a taste of the infield with the least possible risk. And if your catchers are throwing balls to 3B that all-star level players can't handle, tell your catchers to eat the ball and not throw it -- they're needlessly risking runs.

The coach has decided to go with a really strong OF on the assumption that good hitters usually put the ball in the OF. I like the strategy, but even if I didn't I don't think I could sway him on this point. So the two outfielders we have who could play SS are pretty much off limits.

Again, the difference is not how many balls go into the outfield, but the difference in ability to field those balls between your best players and the alternative, and then compare that delta/difference to the impact on keeping those guys away from more critical positions.

So, based on my experience I'd have to say that focusing on outfielding at the expense of SS is ill-advised. I'm guessing most folks here will agree. I don't know what your coach bases his decision on, so I can't fully criticize him. Anyway, the best way to empirically approach it is to take notes over the first few games of each ball hit to the SS, 3B and to the outfield positions. Note the result and then make a judgment as to whether the alternative player -- whether better or worse -- would likely have made a different result than what actually occurred. If the outfielders are getting nothing but routine plays (whether outs or hits out of their reach) and the third baseman isn't getting much action, then he's probably on the wrong track.

[mcp]

Uncoach said: I would want my best players in the positions where they are going to be getting the most touches. 1, 2, 6 and 3.

Ditto this. At that age, I'd MUCH rather be weak in the OF....than at SS. I'd also rather be weak at 3rd than SS. My .02

[The Flush]

This team must be full of great hitters and pitchers/catchers if you don't have a good SS. Many AS teams are nothing but SS and pitchers/catchers.

[Jesse]

Thanks for all the comments. You guys are really helping me get my mind around all this. The tournament starts on Saturday, so we need to nail down positions ASAP. I think I have some ideas of what needs to be done, but I’m not in charge…

This team must be full of great hitters and pitchers/catchers if you don't have a good SS. Many AS teams are nothing but SS and pitchers/catchers.

We have several that could play SS, but they're being used elsewhere, and all of them pitch and/or catch, so they wouldn't be able to play SS full time. We have four really, really good outfielders that are fast, can judge fly balls, and make diving catches. I think two of them are good choices for SS. They both pitch, but would be relievers at best, and neither of them will catch. Maybe tonight we can pick one to play SS.

Ideally I'd like to have one kid at SS full time so he can get really comfortable there but we probably won't have that luxury.

By the way, this AS team isn't as strong as it could be. Five players turned the coach down due to vacations/committment issues, so five out of the twelve on the roster are second picks.

I’m not sure I agree about 3B being less important at this level. 3B is a great place to get outs, especially if there are a lot of walks or runners getting on base. Our catcher is lightning fast at getting passed balls, and will usually make the throw to third in time to catch a kid trying to steal. A good 3B/C combination is kind of a secret weapon, especially against aggressive runners (which most All-Stars will tend to be), and can really help a struggling pitcher get out of an inning. I do agree if they’re hitting the ball well, SS becomes more important than 3B...and I expect these teams to hit well. Sure would like to be strong at both positions though…

[Chris O'Leary]

First, the throw from 3B is a long one for kids that age, so I don't rate it as highly if I am pressed. I'd rather put that arm at SS if I have limited resources.

Second, remember that, with a hard thrower on the mound, more balls will often go to 2B. Under some circumstances, 2B may be the place for your best glove.

Third, I am dealing with IF/OF question myself and it was proven to me the other day which to emphasize. We lost because I put my son (who is the best all around player in terms of speed, glove, and arm) in CF rather than at SS and I put a different guy at SS. I wanted to use my son's speed in the OF, but it turned out that he only got 1 ball during the game while the SS got 10 balls (and had a bad day and booted 4 of them).

[Jesse]

First, the throw from 3B is a long one for kids that age, so I don't rate it as highly if I am pressed. I'd rather put that arm at SS if I have limited resources.

Agree. I typically don’t expect 3B to make that throw unless the runner is pretty slow. The kid we’ve picked for 3B has a good arm, but more importantly, he has a good glove and can cover the steal and knows how to get a kid on a rundown. He’s a bigger kid, so probably doesn’t have the range you’d want in a SS.

Second, remember that, with a hard thrower on the mound, more balls will often go to 2B. Under some circumstances, 2B may be the place for your best glove.

Agree. We have a vacuum cleaner at 2B. Well, more of a dustpan. He doesn’t catch everything clean, but nothing gets by him. He’ll fall on it, use his body, his face, sometimes even his glove to stop the ball, and he’s quick. We figure if he knocks it down, he’s still got a chance to make the throw. He’s not the best choice for 2B, there just literally isn’t anywhere else he can play.

Third, I am dealing with IF/OF question myself and it was proven to me the other day which to emphasize. We lost because I put my son (who is the best all around player in terms of speed, glove, and arm) in CF rather than at SS and I put a different guy at SS. I wanted to use my son's speed in the OF, but it turned out that he only got 1 ball during the game while the SS got 10 balls (and had a bad day and booted 4 of them).

Good point. Had a similar situation last year. I brought in a kid from the OF to play third because our stud third baseman wasn’t there. We ended up losing the game 6-2 because the other team stole home six times. Our catcher knew not to throw it to third, and the other team figured this out pretty quick, so they started taking huge leads on every pitch and would steal home on the first passed ball. They also wore our catcher out because he had to run them back on every pitch, and the pitcher had to run in and cover home. What a fiasco. All because of a weak 3B. In retrospect, I should have moved our SS to third, because he didn’t get a single ball. Conventional wisdom and common sense don’t always apply when dealing with 10 year olds…

I'm trying to adjust my thinking based on the higher level of play we're going to see (especially pitching and hitting), but that game taught me the value of a good third baseman.

[Chris O'Leary]

Agree. I typically don’t expect 3B to make that throw unless the runner is pretty slow. The kid we’ve picked for 3B has a good arm, but more importantly, he has a good glove and can cover the steal and knows how to get a kid on a rundown. He’s a bigger kid, so probably doesn’t have the range you’d want in a SS.

Agreed.

I think we've made that throw and play once or twice all year (at 11U).

The glove is more important for the throw down from C.

Agree. We have a vacuum cleaner at 2B. Well, more of a dustpan. He doesn’t catch everything clean, but nothing gets by him. He’ll fall on it, use his body, his face, sometimes even his glove to stop the ball, and he’s quick. We figure if he knocks it down, he’s still got a chance to make the throw. He’s not the best choice for 2B, there just literally isn’t anywhere else he can play.

2B is the kid who's got the glove but not the arm.

I have gotten a lot of wins by developing those guys and not just writing them off due to their lack of an arm.

[johnlanza]

I think as coaches, we sometimes analyze things to death. I know over the course of this season (I coach 7/8 year olds), it happened to me. We had a pretty consistent thing going, and then before a couple of games, I thought "What if we swap these guys at these positions because the other team hits this way", etc. If I had just left it alone, and not over analyzed the situation, I would have saved myself a lot of time. We still had a successful season - everyone got to play infield/outfield, and, more importantly, had fun! We also won our share of games, which always makes it even more fun for the kids.

For Jesse's situation, if there isn't a clear-cut choice for shortstop, pick the one who acts like a leader and who wants to play there. I would rather have a stronger player at SS than at 3B.

[songtitle]

Man, this is a first. I've never seen an AS team that wasn't made up of 90% SS. So, I have no idea how to help.

[The Flush]

We learned the hard way how important SS is even at 8U. We put our best player at 1B just because he was the only one who could consistently catch a thrown ball. It worked well for the most part because he caught every thing catchable and several bad throws as well. For some reason we put our second best fielder at 3B because he had the strongest arm. SS was a not as good fielder who had an OK arm. But against the better (harder hitting) teams, our SS let a lot of relatively easy ground balls go through his legs that would have been easy force outs at 2nd. In the last regular season game we moved 1B to SS, 3B to 1B, and SS to 3B for the last inning (we were way behind due to SS errors) and we got the top of the order out 1-2-3 due to great plays by the new SS. We went 4-2 in our tournament games using this new lineup, losing only to an undefeated team that simply hit better than anyone else we played. Or new SS made several great plays including an unassisted triple play, a 6-3 DP, and made 2 highlight real catches going into the outfield. We should have developed another player into 1B earlier into the season and played the best player at SS and we would have done a little bit better.

[tg643]

In 10U I would make my team as strong as possible in the infield. If you have the pitching to win there will be lots of K's and grounders. A stud centerfielder can shut down the gaps.

As for short versus third, sometimes a stud third baseman can cut off a lot of balls a mediocre shortstop might not be able to make. You must have a third baseman who can make the play on the bunt. If your pitcher is hard to hit you will see a lot of bunts.

[Ursa Major]

Had a similar situation last year. I brought in a kid from the OF to play third because our stud third baseman wasn’t there. We ended up losing the game 6-2 because the other team stole home six times. Our catcher knew not to throw it to third, and the other team figured this out pretty quick, so they started taking huge leads on every pitch and would steal home on the first passed ball. They also wore our catcher out because he had to run them back on every pitch, and the pitcher had to run in and cover home. What a fiasco. All because of a weak 3B. In retrospect, I should have moved our SS to third, because he didn’t get a single ball. Conventional wisdom and common sense don’t always apply when dealing with 10 year olds.

I'm trying to adjust my thinking based on the higher level of play we're going to see (especially pitching and hitting), but that game taught me the value of a good third baseman.

Your 10u tourneys allow runners to lead off? Or is are you speaking of runners taking a lead after the pitch reaches the catcher and racing home on the throwback to the pitcher?

There have been a number of threads for dealing with this situation. (My favorite response -- abeit one out of your control -- is for the home plate umpire when he sees this baserunning nonsense commense to call time after the ball reaches the catcher and 'inspect the ball', preventing the runner at third from advancing. When the offense's manager complains that you can't call time while the ball is live, the umpire can tell him that he'll stop doing it as soon as his team starts playing real baseball.) What you can do is to have the third baseman come half way to home plate after each pitch; if the runner dances off, the catcher can throw to him and have the third baseman walk the runner back to the bag and then throw to the pitcher. After awhile, the fan response if nothing else will force the offense to stop it. Also, judicious use of pump fakes may trap a few kids.

But, you're just giving in to the terrorists if you allow that nonsense to force you to play your best infielder at third base. As Chris points out, at that level a lot more balls will go to the second baseman than even to the shortstop, much less 3B.

[Jesse]

...are you speaking of runners taking a lead after the pitch reaches the catcher and racing home on the throwback to the pitcher?

Yeah, that's what I meant. This particular team was very aggressive on the bases and we (counting myself, as a coach) couldn't deal with it. Now, I'd love for a team to pull that garbage, we'd get easy outs as long as they wanted to do it. In fact, I was disappointed this season that other teams weren't more aggressive on the bases. With the weak pitching we had, we could have used the outs.

There have been a number of threads for dealing with this situation. (My favorite response -- abeit one out of your control -- is for the home plate umpire when he sees this baserunning nonsense commense to call time after the ball reaches the catcher and 'inspect the ball', preventing the runner at third from advancing. When the offense's manager complains that you can't call time while the ball is live, the umpire can tell him that he'll stop doing it as soon as his team starts playing real baseball.) What you can do is to have the third baseman come half way to home plate after each pitch; if the runner dances off, the catcher can throw to him and have the third baseman walk the runner back to the bag and then throw to the pitcher. After awhile, the fan response if nothing else will force the offense to stop it. Also, judicious use of pump fakes may trap a few kids.

My favorite response is to get them in a rundown and get the out. At this level, at least in our area, this is an accepted part of the game. Show up with a weak C or 3B at your own risk. Next year it'll be a different story. Longer baselines pretty much eliminate this garbage.

We worked on this a little in practice today. We have maybe one kid (our stud CF) who's quick enough to score on a rundown, but we got pretty much everyone else out.

But, you're just giving in to the terrorists if you allow that nonsense to force you to play your best infielder at third base. As Chris points out, at that level a lot more balls will go to the second baseman than even to the shortstop, much less 3B.

We ended up moving our 3B to SS, and brought in the second string RF to play 3B. I would have kept 3B where he was and brought one of our stud outfielders in to SS, but I'm not complaining too much. We have a scrimmage with another All-Star team tomorrow, I think it will be very educational.

[Baseball gLove]

Duplicate post

[Baseball gLove]

Man, this is a first. I've never seen an AS team that wasn't made up of 90% SS. So, I have no idea how to help.

That is what I told my son when he did not hustle on a base hit up the middle. I told him "All Stars means there will be 5 or 6 shortstops that will throw you out at first if you do not hustle."

[Jesse]

We scrimmaged a Little League All-Star team yesterday (we’re Dixie). Great game, we ended up being very evenly matched with the other team. You can’t always tell in a scrimmage because both teams are still experimenting, but the final score was 13-13. Lots of excitement, both teams gave it everything they had. The game lasted almost 3 hours because no one wanted to stop playing.

As far as action, SS got a little excitement, but not much. I think he only made two plays in six innings (with no errors). He did get some action cutting off throws from the OF and covering steals, but shared that with 2B. The majority of balls were hit to the right side of the field or to the pitcher. The pull hitters usually got it into the OF. We had our weakest OF’er in RF, which I suspect will change. 3B saw a lot of action. Any time a runner reached third, our catcher went after him. If the runner was two steps off the base, he was throwing. We got some outs that way and gave up a few runs. Our catcher has a gun. Got two runners out trying to steal second, throwing from his knees, and I lost count of how many he got at third.

The other team was more conservative about throwing, and more conservative with their baserunning. Hitting and pitching were pretty even. The other team was more disciplined I think, with extremely vocal coaches. We were more aggressive and our coaches don’t do a whole lot of talking. The head coach shares my philosophy of turning the kids loose and letting them play which I think is great. You take more chances that way, and sometimes you get burned, but it’s a lot more fun to watch and I think the kids enjoy it more. The other team was a class organization though, very impressive. It was neat to see that both styles can be effective.

Overall it was a great confidence builder for the kids, and the coaches, to see how we stack up against another AS team. We’re a lot more optimistic going into the tournament than we were.

[azmatsfan]

It's my understanding the SS position is reserved for the manager's son, unless he's pitching of course.

[songtitle]

It's my understanding the SS position is reserved for the manager's son, unless he's pitching of course.

Of course. This is why you coach.

[Jesse]

LOL. The SS is my son. The thing is, I'd rather have him at 3B, I think that's the better position for him. I have to admit he did a good job at SS yesterday though.

[JCincy]

It's my understanding the SS position is reserved for the manager's son, unless he's pitching of course.

Lol... my son has never played in a game at SS, 1B, or pitcher. Not sure how I wound up being the coach.

[Jesse]

Played our first game of the tournament last night. Lost 8-4 to a very good team. SS did not get a single ball hit his way in 6 innings. We play again tonight - hopefully he'll see some action. So far SS has been the least active part of the infield.