Youth Baseball

[Jake Patterson]

OK some support for my long-time soap-boxing on youth baseball (and too much TB)...

Had a discussion this afternoon with long-time head coach for the Quinnipiac Bobcats - Dan Gooley (scouting at our Legion game) ... I asked him what he thought of year round baseball for youngsters... He told me what every college coach and professional coach has told me... "There is nothing good about it."

He felt we are losing too many talented players because we burn them out way too young. "Let them play basketball or soccer... there's so much they can learn from other sports."

Also, in NC this past week and saw my nephew in a Cal Ripken play-off... Parents are the same everywhere!

Ok.. soapbox put away.

[The Flush]

My 8YO son will roll right into flag football a couple weeks after baseball is over. He will probably still want me to throw with him and hit balls to him for a while after football begins, but he will eventually forget about baseball for a while once the world series is over and college football is in full swing. Winter will be indoor soccer and basketball and then by spring he will probably be ready for baseball again. We will probably work in some golf in there sometime too. Right now he likes everything and it is completely up to him whether or not he plays anything. Right now baseball is his favorite, but that could change once football starts. I am planning on him getting an academic scholarship for college though I won't complain if we hit the lottery or he gets an athletic scholarship (both of which probably have the same odds).

[mcp]

I don't think you'll get too much argument that YEAR ROUND baseball is probably not a good thing. I agree that most kids should play multiple sports...and in our area, the vast majority of the best baseball players also play football, basketball, etc. I don't know many that only play baseball all year long.

I may be off base, but from what I personally have gotten out of your posts is a general tone that youth Travel Ball is no good in general. I disagree with that. I think there are some great things that come out of playing TB, but it has to be with moderation. And yes, I agree that for 10 and under, there is little value...and the chance of burnout later is greatly increased if they do play too much ball at those ages.

[songtitle]

There is always lots of confusion on this topic. Maybe we could categorize pleasure/displeasure based on the following.

1. 3/4 TBall
2. 5/6 TBall
3. 6U TBall Allstars
4. 6U Tball travel team - no overnight stays
5. 6U Tball travel team with one National tourney
6. 6U TBall travel team - year round many tourneys and overnight
7. 8U travel team - no overnight
8. 8U travel team - one National tourney
9. 8U travel team - year round many tourneys and overnight
10. 10U/12U travel team - local tourneys
11. 10U/12U travel team - one National tourney
12. 10U/12U travel team - year round many tourneys and overnight

I would not be involved in 1, 6, or 9. And 12 would have to be limited. But I'm OK if others want to do it.

[Chris O'Leary]

There is always lots of confusion on this topic. Maybe we could categorize pleasure/displeasure based on the following.

1. 3/4 TBall
2. 5/6 TBall
3. 6U TBall Allstars
4. 6U Tball travel team - no overnight stays
5. 6U Tball travel team with one National tourney
6. 6U TBall travel team - year round many tourneys and overnight
7. 8U travel team - no overnight
8. 8U travel team - one National tourney
9. 8U travel team - year round many tourneys and overnight
10. 10U/12U travel team - local tourneys
11. 10U/12U travel team - one National tourney
12. 10U/12U travel team - year round many tourneys and overnight

I would not be involved in 1, 6, or 9. And 12 would have to be limited. But I'm OK if others want to do it.

10 and 11 are enough.

[The Uncoach]

At 10U/12U #9.5 should read "House League in conjunction with lots of detailed practice for the select travel team to play some local travel games along with a few tournaments." We've got some local civic-based teams here playing 7-9 weekends of tournaments in the Summertime. They don't even have the most basic of plays with runners on 1st and 3rd practiced, because the coaches don't know any better. Practice consists of some BP, catching flies and infield. Beyond that, they go play a bunch of games reinforcing bad habits. What a joke.

[bbb3601]

This is my last season coaching travel. My son is going into hs next year and I have decided that if he want to play summer next year then he can go find a new team. Travel has provided me with many memories good and bad. I have seen the burnout 1st hand, and feel it comes from the parents. The kids do enjoy the extra games against top teams that travel provides them, but usually it is daddy ball dominated. We tried to break that mold, but as the old saying go's their is always 1 on every team, and that 1 always finds a way to ruin it. After 6 years in this journey i find myself moving over to Jake's side more and more. If I had it to do over I would have started at 11/12ish, but hey I never claimed to have all the answers. In my mind i guess i justified it by the shelf full of $5 trophy's, but we all know that is just another form of daddy ball (atleast I am honest)..........My kid isn't burnt out yet, and I so can't wait to sit on the sidelines in the chair, enjoying hs baseball. nothing more nothing less. Enjoy the ride gang as it is over in a blink of an eye. Our last tournament we dedicated to the late Coach Weaver. We didn't do as well as hoped, but his dvd helped our catcher throw out 12 kids in 4 games. Musta done something right as 5 of our kids will play high school ball starting next year. Was it travel ball that got them there? Doubtful, but it had it moments! Thank you all on this board for helping me every single step of the way. Now onto my lil 6 y/o daughter that has asked me to sign her up for softball next year!! Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!!!!!!

[shake-n-bake]

Baseball starts in HS.

All the year round team baseball prior to that is counter productive.

A kid can (mine has) stay connected to baseball year round AND participate in many other activities.

What blows kids up is way too much emphasis on the present. The present is a time to buy into the philosophy that what matters is - Having Fun and Getting Better. Not their's or mom and dad's craziness about pecking order, stats, and lofty projections.

My son's focus has rarely been on what's happening now. He'd give up an all-star season in a heartbeat to participate in something else that he felt would more improve his knowledge and skills if it were only offered up at the same time.

Baseball IS fun. Not Baseball is supposed to be fun. When people say too much baseball is bad, I immediately feel like they are bolting down a rabbit hole into a different world. What's bad is the wrong perspective and priorities.

IMHO the right perspective ought to be that spending the time getting better is where the fun lies for a kid. They play and do other things with the intent of being good at them. Don't make it more complicated than it really is. That's the problem.

[mudvnine]

TAfter 6 years in this journey i find myself moving over to Jake's side more and more. If I had it to do over I would have started at 11/12ish, but hey I never claimed to have all the answers.

This is exactly what most of us "older dads" say in retrospect of our kids' baseball "experience".

It is the ones "still in the process" that defend the younger TB teams with great vim and vigor. Nothing wrong with that, as most of us were exactly like that when we were at that stage of the game.

In my mind i guess i justified it by the shelf full of $5 trophy's, but we all know that is just another form of daddy ball (atleast I am honest)..........

LOL!!! Yep, I eventually recognized the "trophy parade" . . . From the 5 and 6 foot "team" trophies prominently displayed in the living room, that eventually made it to the office/guest bedroom, then to the back patio, then garage, and finally the trash truck.

Heck, many times my boys ended up starting their "trophy parade" in the garage, as they weren't out there for the trophies, but rather just trying to play the game and have fun . . . EVEN WITH the parents there.

My kid isn't burnt out yet, and I so can't wait to sit on the sidelines in the chair, enjoying hs baseball. nothing more nothing less.

If they make it to HS baseball, "you done fine" . . .

Enjoy the ride gang as it is over in a blink of an eye.

It definitely does go by so very fast and why I wish that I hadn't let youth baseball consume our lives the way I did.

I can now only share what I consider my mistakes in the hopes that it may help others see the big picture. And yes, we have many baseball friends and acquaintances that did/are doing exactly the same thing that we did . . . regardless of my "warning" or not.

Our last tournament we dedicated to the late Coach Weaver. We didn't do as well as hoped, but his dvd helped our catcher throw out 12 kids in 4 games.

I was lucky and fortunate to be able to call Coach Weaver "my friend" (as did many), even though we lived on opposite costs. He was truly one of a kind and will be greatly missed by many.

RIP Dave . . .

Musta done something right as 5 of our kids will play high school ball starting next year. Was it travel ball that got them there? Doubtful, but it had it moments!

Thank you all on this board for helping me every single step of the way. Now onto my lil 6 y/o daughter that has asked me to sign her up for softball next year!! Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!!!!!!

I don't have a daughter, but have watched a few games . . . even at the college level.

Organized cheers from the dugout??? Ahhhhhhh!!!!!!

[shake-n-bake]

At 13, this was my son's first year of travel baseball. Where's the massive appeal? Going into this season we had concerns over the amount of games and how that'd effect his ability to find time to work on specific areas of his game.

Maybe it's different where the weather allows for more practice time prior to the season and even during the early part of the season. Here it's little emphasis on practice and let's play 4 or 5 games on a weekend and then maybe another during the week. That makes you a better player? Wasn't working for my son and it made the decision rather easy to move on.

[ckehl2]

At 10U/12U #9.5 should read "House League in conjunction with lots of detailed practice for the select travel team to play some local travel tournaments.

I agree, our house league plays about 12 games. I remember when I was a kid I would have loved to play more than that. I did, but it was pick up games in the neighborhood. My 9 yo plays in the house league, and a community based travel team. Played in our one and only tournament this past weekend. We play in our local BR state tournament for all-stars next weekend. After that baseball will be over, we'll take a break and move on to basketball. But it's always his choice on what and how much he plays. :-)

[Jake Patterson]

. Our last tournament we dedicated to the late Coach Weaver. We didn't do as well as hoped, but his dvd helped our catcher throw out 12 kids in 4 games. Musta done something right as 5 of our kids will play high school ball starting next year.

I am certain this made Dave smile!

Was it travel ball that got them there? Doubtful, but it had it moments! Thank you all on this board for helping me every single step of the way. Now onto my lil 6 y/o daughter that has asked me to sign her up for softball next year!! Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!!!!!!

I coached both girls and boys for a number of years... Girls are a lot of fun to coach... Just don't treat them like boys

[jdfromfla]

My deal has always been to find a better alternative, I found one.
In the decades since TB started, it's evolved more and more and certainly isn't what it was when it started. I've never ever heard someone who actually gets a paycheck from the sport (College level or pro coach..even the majority of hs coaches I've met) endorse travel, particularly year round travel, from the age of 5/6, they may...may endorse limited tourney action beginning at 12, but for the most part, they are the biggest critics of it...If one takes a moment to logically think that one out...they know what shape a player has to be in to be able to deal with it (Physically and mentally)..they as a rule recommend more differentiated sports and activities and the very best require players to get away for at least a months time, many fall to the side of 3 months or more. It is a particular kind of thought process to think for what ever reason that a parent knows better than that collective knowledge....or some guy who used to play college ball thinking he can create an empire influencing some gullable "well-meaning" parents with good hard cash. So I speak out against the early travel and urge folks to go to those places I mentioned and learn about it from a healthy, long term approach...to learn how to field grounders and correctly receive fundementals training from people geared toward producing excellence which is aimed for the future. Almost all colleges provide skills training in the form of camps, clinics, seminars. The pros also provide things like this and many..many old pros give clinics nation wide (MLB Players Association)...many times it is offered at times when you'll be needing some form of daycare and are competitive and some times cheaper. Another key point is the good ones also understand burn out and attitude (Real hard to get cocky when you stand next to a fella who brings 95 or can hit 475' rockets off the bat when you're 6), so fun is emphasized and respect is taught AND displayed. Another thing you as a parent will learn how they feel about travel and why. I know I sound like a commercial but it just amazes me how easy it was for me to make contacts and friends that have lasted a life time, with players and coaches at the very highest levels of the game, and has gotten my youngest son the benefits of scrutiny from MLB (2 different teams) directly because of this.

[songtitle]

The Baseball America article, 2005 Baseball For The Ages , that we recently talked about is a good example of why parents play travel.

What's worse? The travel ball? Or a Baseball America article on the best 12 yos in the country?

12 yo Kid #1 (son of former MLB player)

He is one of the strongest 12-year-olds I’ve ever seen

he spent the last five seasons playing for the Georgia Seminoles and is a lifetime .600 hitter. As a 10-year-old, he was the MVP of the 2003 USSSA World Series as the Seminoles won a national title.

12 yo Kid#2

He was at his best at the prestigious USSSA Elite 24 World Series at Disney World, where he was named the tournament MVP and led the Oklahoma City Mets to their third national title in five years.

[JRH11]

Let me ask this question.........What do you all consider as "travel?" How far? Does that mean hotel stays?

My son's "travel team" is 10U. Our league is comprised of teams from local communities, so our travel is 45 minute drive at the most. We play a few tournaments in St. Louis, which still only require about 45-50 mins of drive time. We'll play about 35 games this season. Some parents want more, and some want less. We are in the middle of our league standings. We can't compete with the top few teams as all of our kids play club soccer. For us, basbeall is a three month sport. We are over and done come July 11. The top team in our league played 80 games at 9U including 18 tournaments. It will be the same this year at 10U. Their roster is full of kids who play basketball in winter, but no soccer. I can't compete with that.

[JRH11]

Of the high school seniors who were just drafted or signed LOI to play D1........would love to know what those kids were doing at 8, 10, 12 y/o. How many games? Mulitple sports until what age? Etc?

[mudvnine]

The Baseball America article, 2005 Baseball For The Ages , that we recently talked about is a good example of why parents play travel.

What's worse? The travel ball? Or a Baseball America article on the best 12 yos in the country?

12 yo Kid#2

He was at his best at the prestigious USSSA Elite 24 World Series at Disney World, where he was named the tournament MVP and led the Oklahoma City Mets to their third national title in five years.

Something else interesting in the Kid#2 article . . .

Gill ranks with Robert Stock (2002) and Ryan Klem (2003) as the most dominant 12-year-old pitchers of his generation.

Robert Stock has spent the last three seasons bouncing around "A" ball and not even as a pitcher . . .

Year   Age          Tm    Lg  Lev Aff   BA  OBP  SLG
2009    19     2 Teams 2 Lgs Rk-A STL .294 .363 .494
2009    19 JohnsonCity  APPY   Rk STL .322 .386 .550
2009    19  QuadCities  MIDW    A STL .095 .208 .095
2010    20  QuadCities  MIDW    A STL .213 .300 .277
2011    21     2 Teams 2 Lgs A-A+ STL .216 .260 .307
2011    21  QuadCities  MIDW    A STL .176 .241 .275
2011    21   PalmBeach  FLOR   A+ STL .270 .289 .351
3 Seasons                             .238 .313 .347
A (3 seasons)                       A .202 .287 .267
Rk (1 season)                      Rk .322 .386 .550
A+ (1 season)                      A+ .270 .289 .351


(It should be noted though, that he did have an excellent college career at USC on the bump and at the plate.)

And Ryan Klem spent the past two seasons at South Mountain Community College in Arizona, with a 4-3 record from a total of 56-2/3 innings pitched. He was not drafted in this years MLB selection process.

These are not necessarily the stats one might expect from two of the "most dominant 12-year-old pitchers of [their] generation."

Now they're both still young, have more years ahead of them to change things up, and I wish them both the very best, but I'm not convinced a lot is really learned, nor the future predicted . . . from the stats/performance of a 12 year old.

To answer your question though, I don't necessarily have a problem with this . . .

The dominance of powerful travel leagues over the traditional recreation leagues is also becoming more pronounced in the 13-17 age groups, as weaker players fall by the wayside after age 12 and the best teenage players seek the best competition available.

In fact, I'm don't really see a problem with some of the better 12 year olds, and even some of the best 11's participating in an abbreviated TB season.

It's the remainder of the 11U and below "TB" teams that play extended seasons that I have a problem with . . . "JRH11" I think a 35 game schedule, over a three month season is more than acceptable.

It's not the "travel" that's the problem, it's the sport dominating the lives of kids who don't know any better, being pushed into it by parents who should, but can't see the forest through the trees.
Not pointing fingers or calling anyone out on this, as I was just as guilty with my youngest son.

[azmatsfan]

Let me ask this question.........What do you all consider as "travel?" How far? Does that mean hotel stays?

My son's "travel team" is 10U. Our league is comprised of teams from local communities, so our travel is 45 minute drive at the most. We play a few tournaments in St. Louis, which still only require about 45-50 mins of drive time. We'll play about 35 games this season. Some parents want more, and some want less. We are in the middle of our league standings. We can't compete with the top few teams as all of our kids play club soccer. For us, basbeall is a three month sport. We are over and done come July 11. The top team in our league played 80 games at 9U including 18 tournaments. It will be the same this year at 10U. Their roster is full of kids who play basketball in winter, but no soccer. I can't compete with that.

I'll probably sound like one of those naive parents, but I don't think travel ball in and of itself is bad. Here in the Phoenix area there are hundreds of "travel teams". Or at least that's what we call them. Very few ever travel outside the valley. We're lucky to have a lot of opportunities. I'm starting a 9U "travel" team this fall with my youngest son. We are playing in a league where we'll play 14 games. Then we'll play one of the bigger USSSA tournaments in November to cap off the season. I plan to pitch the boys only two innings max per game and focus on development and having fun. This experience is typical of travel teams for boys under twelve. Sure there are a few clubs in town that advertise for "Elite 9U Players", but those are in the minority. I want to make sure we don't paint travel ball with too broad of a brush.

[hitnpeas]

I'll probably sound like one of those naive parents, but I don't think travel ball in and of itself is bad. Here in the Phoenix area there are hundreds of "travel teams". Or at least that's what we call them. Very few ever travel outside the valley. We're lucky to have a lot of opportunities. I'm starting a 9U "travel" team this fall with my youngest son. We are playing in a league where we'll play 14 games. Then we'll play one of the bigger USSSA tournaments in November to cap off the season. I plan to pitch the boys only two innings max per game and focus on development and having fun. This experience is typical of travel teams for boys under twelve. Sure there are a few clubs in town that advertise for "Elite 9U Players", but those are in the minority. I want to make sure we don't paint travel ball with too broad of a brush.

When you state you are starting a travel team, can you explain to me your process? Did you have tryouts or get kids from your local league that you have seen play?

[shake-n-bake]

It boils down to the adults running the show. Where they are putting instruction and having fun over winning it works. There's adults that all they talk about is the "competition" like the kids are going to develop freakishly because they are playing a legendary 13 y/o team that's on par with the Yankees. There's others that look at it for what it really is - only part of the equation in the kids improving and having a fun experience.

However, I see an attitude amongst the adults (especially the coaches and the parents quasi-coaching / over participating) that just because their kid got on a team that isn't open to everyone, the uniforms are upgraded, and they're playing a lot of games that their kids are on their way to big things.

Truth is the upgraded competition is a plus, but being on a travel team isn't a guarantee that the instruction is better. The quality of the instruction and commitment to teaching and mentoring is where a kid is going to most improve.

[shake-n-bake]

There's not been much said about pitching issues. 5 or 6 games a week with all or most of them coming in a couple or three days coupled with playing teams that do have good players and will expose all but the best arms on your team can be a bad situation. Throw in coaching that values winning over teaching. You may also have kids moving up in field size and now the pitching pool shrinks and hitters gain more advantage. It's a real issue in travel ball.

My son played on a team that didn't have a lot of pitching going into the year. There were kids that pitched 12u that didn't really adapt to 60'. It wasn't good. My son made it clear going into the season that he didn't want to be a "pitcher". He wanted to be a "player" that also pitched. The writing was on the wall that this season was going to end badly.

[azmatsfan]

When you state you are starting a travel team, can you explain to me your process? Did you have tryouts or get kids from your local league that you have seen play?

We had a really enthusiastic group of 8U players this year in our LL. The kids love baseball and the families were good, so I thought I would start a team to play in the fall, with the idea that they will play LL again in the Spring. I invited eight or nine kids from our league to join the team, a couple others are from a neighboring LL, and one literally showed up on my doorstep. No tryouts. I told the parents I'm not trying to field a championship team. I want boys that are enthusiastic about baseball and want to learn the game. I hope to challenge them without overwhelming them. I'm sure I'll be posting questions on here as I have my first experience managing baseball outside of LL.

[JRH11]

So, are we advocating more training (proper training) and less playing? I think that's part of the problem.

[The Uncoach]

So, are we advocating more training (proper training) and less playing? I think that's part of the problem.

Yes. The problem with that is all the local rec organizations would actually have to take the time to find the right coaches who actually know how to teach the game instead of the first dad in line who can throw a little BP and schedule a bunch of tournaments.

[The Flush]

Yes. The problem with that is all the local rec organizations would actually have to take the time to find the right coaches who actually know how to teach the game instead of the first dad in line who can throw a little BP and schedule a bunch of tournaments.

We don't appear to have a long line of dads waiting to be coaches in our local rec league. In fact the same dads usually get their arms twisted to be coaches even when they don't want to. I volunteered to coach this year because I thought I could do a slightly better job than the coaches my son has had in the past and I am willing to spend time trying to educate myself about how to teach the game. I would gladly step aside for a more qualified coach, but their are not many around here.

I think it would be better if we only played once a week and practiced twice a week instead of our current 2-3 games a week and zero practices (due to lack of field availability). Most of our teams are lucky to get 4-5 practices in before the season and only the diehards find time to practice once the season starts. I figure 90% of my son's ability was developed in the back yard and the rest from games, organized practice, TV, and video games.