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Thread: Call was correct

  1. #1

    Call was correct

    The call was correct tonight, from the Kauffman Stadium site...

    above surrounding fenceline is a home run. Below surrounding fenceline is in play.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by SavoyBG View Post
    The call was correct tonight, from the Kauffman Stadium site...

    above surrounding fenceline is a home run. Below surrounding fenceline is in play.
    What I'm wondering, was that the ground rule in place before that play actually took place. If that is the case even though it seems odd to me since the ball never left the playing field, then I wouild agree.
    Or did the umps just make a judgement call and decide it was a home run.
    Last edited by SHOELESSJOE3; 08-17-2011 at 09:23 PM.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by SHOELESSJOE3 View Post
    What I'm wondering, was that the ground rule in place before that play actually took place. If that is the case even though it seems odd to me since the ball never left the playing field, then I wouild agree.
    Or did the umps just make a judgement call and decide it was a home run.
    Gerardi on the post game show said that DaMuth told him that the ground rule is that the ball only has to clear the first fence. This was discussed at the ground rules in the first game of the series. The ruling was that the ball hit the top of the first fence, then caromed off of the second fence, which is the one with the railing.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by SavoyBG View Post
    The call was correct tonight, from the Kauffman Stadium site...

    above surrounding fenceline is a home run. Below surrounding fenceline is in play.
    Are you speaking of the small portion of fence between the top of the wall and the top railing. Then that would mean if the ball strikes the railing and stays in the park, it would be a home run.
    That makes no sense since the top rail is the last barrier to be cleared for a home run.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by SavoyBG View Post
    The call was correct tonight, from the Kauffman Stadium site...

    above surrounding fenceline is a home run. Below surrounding fenceline is in play.
    No, here's what it actually says:
    "Foul poles -- above surrounding fenceline is a home run. Below surrounding fenceline is in play."

    How come you left off the words "foul poles"? That rule doesn't seem to have anything to do with that HR/double.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by SHOELESSJOE3 View Post
    Are you speaking of the small portion of fence between the top of the wall and the top railing. Then that would mean if the ball strikes the railing and stays in the park, it would be a home run.
    That makes no sense since the top rail is the last barrier to be cleared for a home run.
    Like I said, the ground rule is that the ball only has to go over the first fence. Yes, if the ball strikes the railing it is a HR.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by SavoyBG View Post
    Like I said, the ground rule is that the ball only has to go over the first fence. Yes, if the ball strikes the railing it is a HR.
    Watch this and see if you change your mind. Even Frank White and a Royals official say it should not have been a HR.
    http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?c_...me_pk%3D288746

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by ipitch View Post
    Watch this and see if you change your mind. Even Frank White and a Royals official say it should not have been a HR.
    http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?c_...me_pk%3D288746
    I'm aware of that, but neither of them is an umpire. Players and broadcasters do not know the rules, whether it's the playing rules or the ground rules.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SavoyBG View Post
    I'm aware of that, but neither of them is an umpire. Players and broadcasters do not know the rules, whether it's the playing rules or the ground rules.
    Nice blanket statement there! This from the person that says a rule about the FOUL POLE means that the call was correct?!?!? Bizarre.

    As for now, the title of this thread should be "call was incorrect".

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by SavoyBG View Post
    Gerardi on the post game show said that DaMuth told him that the ground rule is that the ball only has to clear the first fence. This was discussed at the ground rules in the first game of the series. The ruling was that the ball hit the top of the first fence, then caromed off of the second fence, which is the one with the railing.
    I guess if it was discussed then the call would be correct. Sounds like a screwy ground rule, you would think they would make it simple, if the ball goes into the seated area, a homer , if not then still in play. Why would it even be a ground rule double if it never bounced from the playing and over a fence or wall.

  11. #11
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    It's the messed up set up there that caused this. Look at about the 2:00 minute mark in the vid IP linked, there's the first fence with the signage and a padded solid top, that then has an additional foot of chain link on top of it with vertical padded poles and a second green padded horizontal rail above the first one, and the top of that is 12" in front of the stadium wall's rail. This is pretty clear at 1:56.

    http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?c_...me_pk%3D288746

    The ball hit the top of the first green padded area below the top of the fence and bounced off the chain link and back into play. In most ballparks bounding off the wall back into play is not a ground rule double, forget HR.

    Expect the umpires thought it bounced off the blue rail? Too many horizontal surfaces too close together for darn sure.

  12. #12
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    Here's a good angle of the wall. I would think that the ball should have to clear the pad on top of the chain link to be a HR.
    9906042-large.jpg

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    Sixty minutes after Joakim Soria fanned Jorge Posada with the bases loaded to end the game, umpire supervisor Steve Palermo had the four umpires on the left-field warning track and held an animated conversation with DeMuth. It was a strong indication DeMuth made a mistake.
    http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/yanke...4HpodcNFDmBKdK


    If you saw Billy Butler's home run on Wednesday night, you know that the umpires blew the call.

    The ball never cleared the fence, hitting off the back part of the wall, a chain-link fence that was considered in play. The only problem? Dana DeMuth, the crew chief, didn't remember what the rules were.

    The Yankees were understandably livid, though they were unable to do anything about it. Joe Girardi didn't file a protest at the time of the call, leaving him helpless to do anything after the game.
    http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/yan...-blow-it-in-kc

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by CandlestickBum View Post
    It's the messed up set up there that caused this. Look at about the 2:00 minute mark in the vid IP linked, there's the first fence with the signage and a padded solid top, that then has an additional foot of chain link on top of it with vertical padded poles and a second green padded horizontal rail above the first one, and the top of that is 12" in front of the stadium wall's rail. This is pretty clear at 1:56.

    http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?c_...me_pk%3D288746

    The ball hit the top of the first green padded area below the top of the fence and bounced off the chain link and back into play. In most ballparks bounding off the wall back into play is not a ground rule double, forget HR.

    Expect the umpires thought it bounced off the blue rail? Too many horizontal surfaces too close together for darn sure.
    Why did they make this so complicated. All they had to do with the ground rule was use common sense, make the rule the way it is most other parks. Any ball that hits the padded area or even that top rail and then bounces into the seated area is a home run.

    Any ball that hits the padded area or rail and bounds back on the field is...........what ever the runner can get. I have no idea where some thought it should be a double.

    In I believe all parks, any ball that bounces off the top of the wall and clears all barrriers is a home run. Back on the field, in play, runner gets what he could. I guess thats too simple.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by SHOELESSJOE3 View Post
    Why did they make this so complicated. All they had to do with the ground rule was use common sense, make the rule the way it is most other parks. Any ball that hits the padded area or even that top rail and then bounces into the seated area is a home run.

    Any ball that hits the padded area or rail and bounds back on the field is...........what ever the runner can get. I have no idea where some thought it should be a double.
    It appears that that IS the rule. The umpires just got the call wrong.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by ipitch View Post
    It appears that that IS the rule. The umpires just got the call wrong.
    OK, that makes sense, sounds better. I guess none of the umps knew that, how could that be, they discuss the rules before games.

  17. #17
    http://umpireejections.blogspot.com/

    Rule 1.04 defines the outer limit of The Playing Field as a "fence, stand or other obstruction on fair territory." Rule 2.00 FAIR TERRITORY specifies that fair territory encompasses "the bottom of the playing field fence [extended] perpendicularly upwards."

    Notice from the picture above, that the chain link fence and padding appears to be slightly recessed from the playing field fence (you may have to look towards the left-center field area to see it). In other words, the ~ three foot high chain link fence and its corresponding padding ("an obstruction") is on the out of play side of the fence defined by Rule 1.04. It is not flush with the wall, is not perpendicular to the ground at the point in which the fence defined by Rule 1.04 begins, and therefore, is not part of the playing field. By virtue of all that rules review, the umpires got it right.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by SavoyBG View Post
    http://umpireejections.blogspot.com/

    Rule 1.04 defines the outer limit of The Playing Field as a "fence, stand or other obstruction on fair territory." Rule 2.00 FAIR TERRITORY specifies that fair territory encompasses "the bottom of the playing field fence [extended] perpendicularly upwards."

    Notice from the picture above, that the chain link fence and padding appears to be slightly recessed from the playing field fence (you may have to look towards the left-center field area to see it). In other words, the ~ three foot high chain link fence and its corresponding padding ("an obstruction") is on the out of play side of the fence defined by Rule 1.04. It is not flush with the wall, is not perpendicular to the ground at the point in which the fence defined by Rule 1.04 begins, and therefore, is not part of the playing field. By virtue of all that rules review, the umpires got it right.
    I get their point Savoy, they contend that it struck the chain link fence and that is behind the wall, where the ball first made contact.
    Does that mean if the ball strikes only the chain link fence and bounds back on to the field, it would be a home run, looks that way to me.
    That is what confuses some. We are accustomed to what the rule is in any park, a ball that hits the top of a barrier and bounds back on the field is not a home run. But the fact that this chain link fence is behind the wall, it's a home run.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by SavoyBG View Post
    http://umpireejections.blogspot.com/

    Rule 1.04 defines the outer limit of The Playing Field as a "fence, stand or other obstruction on fair territory." Rule 2.00 FAIR TERRITORY specifies that fair territory encompasses "the bottom of the playing field fence [extended] perpendicularly upwards."

    Notice from the picture above, that the chain link fence and padding appears to be slightly recessed from the playing field fence (you may have to look towards the left-center field area to see it). In other words, the ~ three foot high chain link fence and its corresponding padding ("an obstruction") is on the out of play side of the fence defined by Rule 1.04. It is not flush with the wall, is not perpendicular to the ground at the point in which the fence defined by Rule 1.04 begins, and therefore, is not part of the playing field. By virtue of all that rules review, the umpires got it right.
    Probably nothing will ever convince you, but MLB has already admitted that it was a blown call.

    MINNEAPOLIS -- Brian Cashman said he spoke to current Major League Baseball executive Joe Torre and the former Yankees manager admitted the umpires made a mistake on the home run call that helped the Royals win on Wednesday night.

    "We talked to MLB today and Joe Torre at Cooperstown (where the owners meetings were held) acknowledged a mistake was made," Cashman said Thursday. "There is nothing we can do but move on. At least it was acknowledged. It is what it is."


    Billy Butler's third-inning home run didn't clear a small second fence in left-center field but was ruled a home run on the field and following a replay look.

    The homer was part of a four-run inning in the Royals' 5-4 win over the Yankees.

    Girardi did not immediately protest the game, leaving the Yankees with no option to rectify the call.

    "Joe could have protested immediately, but I've been around a long time; I don't think baseball would uphold the protest," Cashman said. "I would be shocked if Major League Baseball upheld a managerial protest."

    Torre, executive VP of baseball operations, ironically made a presentation to owners Thursday revealing MLB's plans to upgrade umpiring.

    Replays showed Butler's ball hitting the top of the fence then hitting the chain-link railing about a foot behind it and falling onto the warning track. During the replay viewing, Butler had his helmet on and appeared ready to go to second base.

    What the umpires told Yankees first-base coach Mick Kelleher during the ground rules meeting before Monday night's game and what DeMuth told Girardi in the third inning Wednesday night differed.

    According to Kelleher, he was told a home run had to clear both walls. Girardi said he was instructed the ball only had to clear one wall.

    "I figured he knew the rules," Girardi said of crew chief Dana DeMuth, who was at second base. "The reason I didn't protest is I believed the umpire."

    Sixty minutes after the game, umpire supervisor Steve Palermo had the four umpires on the left-field warning track and held an animated conversation with DeMuth. It was a strong indication DeMuth made a mistake.

    Through the Royals' PR department, the umpires declined comment on the situation.

    "At least it was acknowledged," Cashman said. "Joe Torre did it in Cooperstown I talked to Peter Woodfork (an MLB senior VP).

    "We have to move on. we made our share of mistakes last night. We had our chances to win the game."
    Last edited by ipitch; 08-18-2011 at 12:40 PM.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by ipitch View Post
    Probably nothing will ever convince you, but MLB has already admitted that it was a blown call.
    Yes, I just saw this. Makes more sense that the ball should have to clear both walls if they are right next to each other, but that's not what the rulebook says. This looks like the pine tar thing to me, where the umpire made the correct ruling based on the rulebook, but the league then stuck it up the umpire's arse and ruled against what the rulebook says.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ipitch View Post
    Probably nothing will ever convince you, but MLB has already admitted that it was a blown call.

    Ya know IP, he just might be onto something. You know all those big windows in the wall at Mays Field? They have screens that are indented from the perpendicular, soooooo.. hit the screen and.......HOME RUN!

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by SavoyBG View Post
    Yes, I just saw this. Makes more sense that the ball should have to clear both walls if they are right next to each other, but that's not what the rulebook says. This looks like the pine tar thing to me, where the umpire made the correct ruling based on the rulebook, but the league then stuck it up the umpire's arse and ruled against what the rulebook says.
    By the way, the same player (Butler) hit a ball to the same spot earlier this year against the Angels. It was also reviewed and upheld as a HR, based on the rules in the rulebook and the umpires understanding of the ground rule for that park. The fact that Torre is now saying something different about the ground rule does not mean that the call was wrong at the time that it was made.

  23. #23
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    Definitely not an HR. It must clear the top fence. I have seen a zillion balls hit the top fence and carom back and that was the first one ever called an HR.

    Years ago I saw what has to be the oddest homerun in Kauffman history. Sal Bando hit a ball that when it landed wedged itself between the top of the main fence and the bottom of the top fence. For whatever reason the umps immediately ruled that an HR so it wasn't an ITPHR.
    Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball

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    Quote Originally Posted by SavoyBG View Post
    Yes, I just saw this. Makes more sense that the ball should have to clear both walls if they are right next to each other, but that's not what the rulebook says. This looks like the pine tar thing to me, where the umpire made the correct ruling based on the rulebook, but the league then stuck it up the umpire's arse and ruled against what the rulebook says.
    I would guess that the ground rule supersedes the rulebook, at least in this case. Each ballpark has its own ground rules that may not be covered anywhere in the MLB rulebook. While it says "fair territory encompasses the bottom of the playing field fence [extended] perpendicularly upwards", that may just refer to simple vertical walls, and not the rather unusual wall at Kaufmann.

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    Here's his HR from June 1. This one appears (to me) to go behind the chain link fence, but I'm anything but sure.
    https://secure.mlb.com/media/video.j...nt_id=15437971

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