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Thread: Ranking the HoF Players: 21-25

  1. #1

    Ranking the HoF Players: 21-25

    Project Summary: To rank the worthiness of the players inducted into the National Baseball Hall of Fame from most worthy to least worthy.

    Election Format: Voters will submit ballots ranking their 10 most worthy remaining Hall of Fame players in order of worthiness. Each first place vote will be worth 10 points, with each successive rank being worth one point less than the previous rank, ending in a tenth place vote being worth 1 point. Players will also receive one additional point for each ballot they are listed on and players must be listed on at least three ballots in order to be elected. The five players with the highest support at the end of each election will be elected in the order of their support. Elections will last approximately seven days.
    - Tiebreakers: In the event of a tie among players at the end of an election, the first tiebreaker will number of first place votes in that election. The second tiebreaker will be total number of ballot appearances in that election. In the event that there remains a tie, there will be a three day run-off by poll. Players that lose in a run-off will slot into the next ranking spot.

    Factors to Consider: As this project focuses on players inducted into the National Baseball Hall of Fame, subjective qualities beyond just statistics should be taken into consideration in determining a player's relative worthiness. In that vein, the voting guidelines that the BBWAA is to follow in actual National Baseball Hall of Fame elections, may be instructive (though not necessarily determinative in this project): "Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played."

    Player Eligibility: Only players that have been elected to the National Baseball Hall of Fame as players are eligible, including Negro League players and 19th Century players. A complete list of individuals that have been inducted as players is available at the National Baseball Hall of Fame's website, and is recreated below along with each player's corresponding BBF Rank as determined by this project:

    Results
    1) Babe Ruth
    2) Willie Mays
    3) Ty Cobb
    4) Ted Williams
    5) Hank Aaron
    6) Honus Wagner
    7) Walter Johnson
    8) Lou Gehrig
    9) Cy Young
    10) Stan Musial
    11) Mickey Mantle
    12) Rogers Hornsby
    13) Jackie Robinson
    14) Tris Speaker
    15) Josh Gibson
    16) Eddie Collins
    17) Satchel Paige
    18) Grover Alexander
    19) Frank Robinson
    20) Joe DiMaggio

    Master List
    Code:
    Player				BBF Rank
    Hank Aaron			5
    Grover Alexander		18
    Roberto Alomar
    Cap Anson
    Luis Aparicio
    Luke Appling
    Richie Ashburn
    Earl Averill
    Frank Baker
    Dave Bancroft
    Ernie Banks
    Jake Beckley
    Cool Papa Bell
    Johnny Bench
    Chief Bender
    Yogi Berra
    Bert Blyleven
    Wade Boggs
    Jim Bottomley
    Lou Boudreau
    Roger Bresnahan
    George Brett
    Lou Brock
    Dan Brouthers
    Mordecai Brown
    Ray Brown
    Willard Brown
    Jim Bunning
    Jesse Burkett
    Roy Campanella
    Rod Carew
    Max Carey
    Steve Carlton
    Gary Carter
    Orlando Cepeda
    Frank Chance
    Oscar Charleston
    Jack Chesbro
    Fred Clarke
    John Clarkson
    Roberto Clemente
    Ty Cobb				3
    Mickey Cochrane
    Eddie Collins			16
    Jimmy Collins
    Earle Combs
    Roger Connor
    Andy Cooper
    Stan Coveleski
    Sam Crawford
    Jo Cronin
    Kiki Cuyler
    Ray Dandridge
    George Davis
    Andre Dawson
    Leon Day
    Dizzy Dean
    Ed Delahanty
    Bill Dickey
    Martin Dihigo	
    Joe DiMaggio			20
    Larry Doby
    Bobby Doerr
    Don Drysdale
    Hugh Duffy
    Dennis Eckersley
    Johnny Evers
    Buck Ewing
    Red Faber
    Bob Feller
    Rick Ferrell
    Rollie Fingers
    Carlton Fisk
    Elmer Flick
    Whitey Ford
    Bill Foster
    Nellie Fox
    Jimmie Foxx
    Frankie Frisch
    Pud Galvin
    Lou Gehrig			8
    Charlie Gehringer
    Bob Gibson
    Josh Gibson			15
    Lefty Gomez
    Joe Gordon
    Goose Goslin
    Rich Gossage
    Frank Grant
    Hank Greenberg
    Burleigh Grimes
    Lefty Grove
    Tony Gwynn
    Chick Hafey
    Jesse Haines
    Billy Hamilton
    Gabby Hartnett
    Harry Heilmann
    Rickey Henderson
    Billy Herman
    Pete Hill
    Harry Hooper
    Rogers Hornsby			12
    Waite Hoyt
    Carl Hubbell
    Catfish Hunter
    Monte Irvin
    Reggie Jackson
    Travis Jackson
    Ferguson Jenkins
    Hugh Jennings
    Judy Johnson
    Walter Johnson			7
    Addie Joss
    Al Kaline
    Tim Keefe
    Willie Keeler
    George Kell
    Joe Kelley
    George Kelly
    King Kelly
    Harmon Killebrew
    Ralph Kiner
    Chuck Klein
    Sandy Koufax
    Nap Lajoie
    Tony Lazzeri
    Bob Lemon
    Buck Leonard
    Freddie Lindstrom
    Pop Lloyd
    Ernie Lombard
    Ted Lyons
    Biz Mackey
    Mickey Mantle			11
    Heinie Manush
    Rabbit Maranville
    Juan Marichal
    Rube Marquard
    Eddie Mathews
    Christy Mathewson
    Willie Mays			2
    Bill Mazeroski
    Tommy McCarthy
    Willie McCovey
    Joe McGinnity
    Bid McPhee
    Joe Medwick
    Jose Mendez
    Johnny Mize
    Paul Molitor
    Joe Morgan
    Eddie Murray
    Stan Musial			10
    Hal Newhouser
    Kid Nichols
    Phil Niekro
    Jim O’Rourke
    Mel Ott
    Satchel Paige			17
    Jim Palmer
    Herb Pennock
    Tony Perez
    Gaylord Perry
    Eddie Plank
    Kirby Puckett
    Charles Radbourn
    Pee Wee Reese
    Jim Rice
    Sam Rice
    Cal Ripken
    Eppa Rixey
    Phil Rizzuto
    Robin Roberts
    Brooks Robinson
    Frank Robinson			19
    Jackie Robinson			13
    Bullet Rogan
    Edd Roush
    Red Ruffing
    Amos Rusie
    Babe Ruth			1
    Nolan Ryan
    Ryne Sandberg
    Louis Santop
    Ray Schalk
    Mike Schmidt
    Red Schoendienst
    Tom Seaver
    Joe Sewell
    Al Simmons
    George Sisler
    Enos Slaughter
    Hilton Smith
    Ozzie Smith
    Duke Snider
    Warren Spahn
    Tris Speaker			14
    Willie Stargell
    Turkey Stearnes
    Bruce Sutter
    Mule Suttles
    Don Sutton
    Ben Taylor
    Bill Terry
    Sam Thompson
    Joe Tinker
    Cristobal Torriente
    Pie Traynor
    Dazzy Vance
    Arky Vaughan
    Rube Waddell
    Honus Wagner			6
    Bobby Wallace
    Ed Walsh
    Lloyd Waner
    Paul Waner
    John Ward
    Mickey Welch
    Willie Wells
    Zack Wheat
    Hoyt Wilhelm
    Billy Williams
    Joe Williams
    Ted Williams			4
    Vic Willis
    Hack Wilson
    Jud Wilson
    Dave Winfield
    Early Wynn
    Carl Yastrzemski
    Cy Young			9
    Ross Youngs
    Robin Yount
    Links to Previous Elections
    Election 1-5
    Election 6-10
    Election 11-15
    Election 16-20
    Last edited by DoubleX; 09-07-2011 at 09:16 AM.

  2. #2
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    1. Christy Mathewson
    2. Cap Anson
    3. Tom Seaver
    4. Lefty Grove
    5. Mike Schmidt
    6. Rickey Henderson
    7. Roberto Clemente
    8. Napoleon Lajoie
    9. Jimmie Foxx
    10. Joe Williams
    Quote
    "A ballplayer has to just go out and be mean. You can't play half-heartedly. If you do, there's someone right over your shoulder that'll take your job away. If you don't do your job, what they're paying you for, why should they pay you? You just can't put in eight hours, that's what a lot of people don't realize about athletes. Very few people realize the pressure." Dave Kingman

  3. #3
    1) Cap Anson - 10
    2) Roberto Clemente - 9
    3) Lefty Grove - 8
    4) Mike Schmidt - 7
    5) Tom Seaver - 6
    6) Johnny Bench 5
    7) Christy Mathewson - 4
    8) Jimmie Foxx - 3
    9) Oscar Charleston - 2
    10) Yogi Berra - 1

  4. #4
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    1. Mathewson - 10
    2. Clemente - 9
    3. Anson - 8
    4. Seaver - 7
    5. Lajoie - 6
    6. Grove - 5
    7. Greenberg - 4
    8. Oscar Charleston - 3
    9. Monte Ward - 2
    10. Jimmie Foxx - 1

    I take the "worthy" to mean other "stuff" can or should count or else it would just be a give me your all-time rankings poll. Anyhew Greenberg as a Jewish star in anti-Semitic days and an eaerly if not first to enter the draft certainly deserves bonus points, plus his influence on Ralph Kiner.
    Pop Lloyd, Spahn, Koufax, Bench, Morgan, Schmidt should be coming soon

  5. #5
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    1. Oscar Charleston
    2. Joe Williams
    3. Joe Morgan
    4. Mike Schmidt
    5. Rickey Henderson
    6. Turkey Stearnes
    7. Mel Ott
    8. Bob Gibson
    9. Lefty Grove
    10. Tom Seaver
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by PVNICK View Post
    I take the "worthy" to mean other "stuff" can or should count or else it would just be a give me your all-time rankings poll.
    This is a good example of the ambiguity of the rules for this project. Other "stuff" is going to mean something different to every voter. I'm suggesting that DoubleX should be more specific in the rules regarding what criteria voters should consider and emphasize, so we're all pulling in the same direction, rather than in 20 widely divergent modes of analysis.
    Eradicate, wipe out and abolish redundancy.

    Free El Duque!(and Mark Mulder) -- discover how the HOF rules are cheating this renowned member of Torre's Yankees dynasty and ask the HOF to include him on the ballot for the next BBWAA election.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freakshow View Post
    This is a good example of the ambiguity of the rules for this project. Other "stuff" is going to mean something different to every voter. I'm suggesting that DoubleX should be more specific in the rules regarding what criteria voters should consider and emphasize, so we're all pulling in the same direction, rather than in 20 widely divergent modes of analysis.
    so far I've and from what I read others have had Jackie Robinson and the color barrier, Clemente and Nicaragua, Mathewson the "icon", Monte Ward the unionizer, Cap Anson as the 1800s larger than life figure, DiMaggio as DiMaggio, What I threw in about Greenberg, in addition to I think King Kelly as the games first superstar, for all I know Seaver as a latter day Matty ...

    add as edit: I don't think there is anything wrong with all that. In a way it makes sense to honor those whose contributions or personalities loomed larger than the lines of numbers left behind before those who may have had equal numbers oir better but whose contributions maybe could be described as being just 9-5.
    Last edited by PVNICK; 09-07-2011 at 11:06 AM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by PVNICK View Post
    In a way it makes sense to honor those whose contributions or personalities loomed larger than the lines of numbers left behind
    And I reject this. I do not consider a guy's QScore* when assessing a player's HOF worthiness. Unfortunately, that seems to be a major factor in some voters' analysis.

    *a measurement of the familiarity and appeal of a brand, company, celebrity, or television show used in the United States
    Last edited by Freakshow; 09-07-2011 at 12:09 PM. Reason: omit "many"
    Eradicate, wipe out and abolish redundancy.

    Free El Duque!(and Mark Mulder) -- discover how the HOF rules are cheating this renowned member of Torre's Yankees dynasty and ask the HOF to include him on the ballot for the next BBWAA election.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Freakshow View Post
    And I reject this. I do not consider a guy's QScore* when assessing a player's HOF worthiness. Unfortunately, that seems to be a major factor in many voters' analysis.

    *a measurement of the familiarity and appeal of a brand, company, celebrity, or television show used in the United States
    I'm going to tell you what I've told others in the past - if you really have issues with the way a project is running, then don't be a part of it. That's certainly not what I want you to choose because I know the value you bring to projects on here, but as a project runner, it becomes quite irksome when a member or two persists in complaining about how a project is run because it's not run in the manner in which that member or two believes is ideal. What's ideal to you is going to be objectionable to someone else anyway, which speaks to the heart of the issue here - no matter what rules are in place, I'll never be able to control the inherent diversity of opinions and interpretations, especially with a subject like the Baseball Hall of Fame which invites an element of subjectivity.

    I started this project as it seemed like a fun and somewhat novel idea, tried to create parameters that I felt were fair (though with some clarifications as some feedback came in, including from yourself), and hope that people enjoy it. I'll never be able to control the fact that people have different interpretations and opinions, that's just something that's naturally going to happen. Understanding that, I tried to put some safeguards in place (such as awarding extra points for total ballots). But ultimately, if anyone has a real issue with this internet board project, then don't partake. This project is what it is, even if it's not what you feel it should be.

  10. #10
    1. Oscar Charleston
    2. Cap Anson
    3. Christy Mathewson
    4. Warren Spahn
    5. Nap Lajoie
    6. Tom Seaver
    7. Jimmie Foxx
    8. Mel Ott
    9. Johnny Bench
    10. Joe Morgan

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleX View Post
    I'm going to tell you what I've told others in the past - if you really have issues with the way a project is running, then don't be a part of it.
    Obviously; and I am a part of this. If I can't persuade you to modify the rules in ways that I see as more rational and leading to a better result, so be it.

    I would ask other voters to keep in mind that the name is the "Hall of Fame." That does not mean that you become more worthy of election the more famous you are. It's the exact opposite; election to the HOF is intended to confer fame upon you. People are not being elected because they are famous; rather they become famous because the honor of membership has been bestowed upon them.
    Eradicate, wipe out and abolish redundancy.

    Free El Duque!(and Mark Mulder) -- discover how the HOF rules are cheating this renowned member of Torre's Yankees dynasty and ask the HOF to include him on the ballot for the next BBWAA election.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Freakshow View Post
    Obviously; and I am a part of this. If I can't persuade you to modify the rules in ways that I see as more rational and leading to a better result, so be it.

    I would ask other voters to keep in mind that the name is the "Hall of Fame." That does not mean that you become more worthy of election the more famous you are. It's the exact opposite; election to the HOF is intended to confer fame upon you. People are not being elected because they are famous; rather they become famous because the honor of membership has been bestowed upon them.
    I think most of us are mostly looking at stats in these rankings. My only reason for introducing King Kelly so early is that Cap Anson was NOT the only 19th century superstar and was not the first cultural icon, contrary to the belief of some participating in this project. If people are going to insist of ranking a 19th century player so early, despite the game's primitive nature pre-1892, IMO, that player should be King Kelly and not Cap Anson. Outside of him, the rest on my ballot are who I believe to be the best HOFers not yet ranked.

    Ballot:

    1. Tom Seaver
    2. Mike Schmidt
    3. Oscar Charleston
    4. Lefty Grove
    5. Yogi Berra
    6. King Kelly
    7. Johnny Bench
    8. Joe Williams
    9. Joe Morgan
    10. Rickey Henderson

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Freakshow View Post
    I would ask other voters to keep in mind that the name is the "Hall of Fame." That does not mean that you become more worthy of election the more famous you are. It's the exact opposite; election to the HOF is intended to confer fame upon you. People are not being elected because they are famous; rather they become famous because the honor of membership has been bestowed upon them.
    And I certainly won't stop you from trying to persuade others of your viewpoint. Discussion in any project in here is key.

    And in the vein of differences of opinion, while I see what you're saying in that being elected to the Hall of Fame is what endows "Fame", I think when comparing the already Famous, there may be subjective factors that may make a player feel more "Famous" and thus more worthy of the "Fame" designation than others. As jjpm said, I believe statistics are the driving force here for most voters, but also don't think it's everything

  14. #14
    1. Mike Schmidt
    2. Christy Mathewson
    3. Jimmie Foxx
    4. Cap Anson
    5. Mel Ott
    6. Pop Lloyd
    7. Napoleon Lajoie
    8. Tom Seaver
    9. Warren Spahn
    10. Lefty Grove
    Last edited by dgarza; 09-08-2011 at 12:19 PM.

  15. #15
    1. Lefty Grove
    2. Oscar Charleston
    3. Cap Anson
    4. Tom Seaver
    5. Christy Mathewson
    6. Harmon Killebrew
    7. Mike Schmidt
    8. Rickey Henderson
    9. Roberto Clemente
    10. Joe Morgan

  16. #16
    1) Christy Mathewson (10)
    2) Tom Seaver (9)
    3) Cap Anson (8)
    4) Rickey Henderson (7)
    5) Mike Schmidt (6)
    6) Lefty Grove (5)
    7) Jimmie Foxx (4)
    8) Kid Nichols (3)
    9) Napoleon Lajoie (2)
    10) Oscar Charleston (1)
    Last edited by Cowtipper; 09-07-2011 at 01:32 PM.

  17. #17
    I'm an Anson man myself, so maybe I shouldn't even be bringing this up, but I'm really curious -- how is it that involvement with the Ku Klux Klan has been at least mentioned as a possible black mark in the case of Hornsby and even Speaker, yet nobody seems to be the least bit concerned about Anson's alleged role in drawing the color line?

    I actually believe his responsibility for that has been grossly exaggerated, in fact I regard him as something of a scapegoat, but there's no denying he said the things he said, did the things he did, and drew the color line very firmly for himself, even if perhaps he couldn't actually do much to impose it on the rest of the baseball world.
    “Money, money, money; that is the article I am looking after now more than anything else. It is the only thing that will shape my course (‘religion is nowhere’).” - Ross Barnes

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Beady View Post
    I'm an Anson man myself, so maybe I shouldn't even be bringing this up, but I'm really curious -- how is it that involvement with the Ku Klux Klan has been at least mentioned as a possible black mark in the case of Hornsby and even Speaker, yet nobody seems to be the least bit concerned about Anson's alleged role in drawing the color line?

    I actually believe his responsibility for that has been grossly exaggerated, in fact I regard him as something of a scapegoat, but there's no denying he said the things he said, did the things he did, and drew the color line very firmly for himself, even if perhaps he couldn't actually do much to impose it on the rest of the baseball world.
    It is true that he played a role, but he was not alone, and later in life when money was scarce, he had no problem taking the field against black ball players. Still, if anyone is holding KKK ties against Hornsby and Speaker, they should definitely be holding his insistence that MLB be "whites only" against Anson.

  19. #19
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    01. Oscar Charleston
    02. Lefty Grove
    03. Mike Schmidt
    04. Tom Seaver
    05. Joe Morgan
    06. Jimmie Foxx
    07. Rickey Henderson
    08. Christy Mathewson
    09. Yogi Berra
    10. Johnny Bench

  20. #20
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    1) Anson
    2) Schmidt
    3) Henderson
    4) Bench
    5) Seaver
    6) Berra
    7) Charleston
    8) Grove
    9) Mathewson
    10) Morgan

  21. #21
    1 - Oscar Charleston
    2 - Rickey Henderson
    3 - Cap Anson
    4 - Lefty Grove
    5 - Christy Mathewson
    6 - Cal Ripken Jr.
    7 - Tom Seaver
    8- Mike Schmidt
    9 - Nap Lajoie
    10 - Kid Nichols

  22. #22
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    1. Roberto Clemente - 10 Points, Ballot #5 (Everything stated by DX)
    2. Cal Ripken Jr. - 9 Points, Ballot #5 (You can call him saving baseball a myth, but there are plenty of myths about old-timers still propagated around. Plus, no recent hall of famer is near Cal's level of fame)
    3. John Montgomery Ward - 8 Points, Ballot #4 (Founded Players Union and Players League)
    4. Cap Anson - 7 Points, Ballot #4 (Greatest player of the 19th century).
    5. King Kelly - 6 Points, Ballot #4 (Huge innovator for the game. Arguably baseball's first super-star)
    6. Yogi Berra - 5 Points, Ballot #2 (Arguably the greatest catcher to play the game; Known as much for playing baseball as much as he is for his "Yogi-isms")
    7. Mike Schmidt - 4 Points, Ballot #1 (Arguably the greatest 3B of all time; also arguably the best position player of the last 40 years, and the best player from the most competitive era in baseball, the 1980's)
    8. Tom Seaver - 3 Points, Ballot #1 (Greatest pitcher eligible of post WWII baseball; known as a member of the 'Miracle Mets')
    9. Hank Greenberg - 2 Points, Ballot #1 (SEE PVNICK)
    10. Christy Mathewson - 1 Point, Ballot #1 (Known as the Christian Gentleman; one of the games top 10 pitchers; died at a young age due to complications from a war-time accident; one of the first pitchers to popularize the screwball)
    Last edited by The Dude; 09-08-2011 at 04:01 AM.
    AL East Champions: 1981 1982
    AL Pennant: 1982
    NL Central Champions: 2011
    NL Wild Card: 2008

    "It was like coming this close to your dreams and then watching them brush past you like a stranger in a crowd. At the time you don't think much of it; you know, we just don't recognize the significant moments of our lives while they're happening. Back then I thought, 'Well, there'll be other days.' I didn't realize that that was the only day." - Moonlight Graham

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by The Dude;1925660[B
    2. Cal Ripken Jr. - 9 Points, Ballot #5[/B] (You can call him saving baseball a myth, but there are plenty of myths about old-timers still propagated around. Plus, no recent hall of famer is near Cal's level of fame)
    What makes Cal Ripken more famous than Tony Gwynn, Ozzie Smith, Kirby Puckett or Rickey Henderson? All of them were on the same level "fame" wise as Ripken in his day. It could also be argued that Nolan Ryan was the most famous player from that era since he achieved notoriety around the end of his career and his no hitter pitched the same day Rickey Henderson broke the all time SB record actually caused Sporting News to do a split front page the next day.

    Cal Ripken was one of the best in his day, but was he really more famous than the others of his generation?

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by jjpm74 View Post
    What makes Cal Ripken more famous than Tony Gwynn, Ozzie Smith, Kirby Puckett or Rickey Henderson? All of them were on the same level "fame" wise as Ripken in his day.
    All these players had some popularity, of course. But some were simply hotter than others. Rickey Henderson and Tony Gwynn were stars, but they were overshadowed by other players of the times. Puckett was always smiling, so he was even more popular. Ozzie Smith was even more famous, often overrated, was a "spokesperson" of sorts, made many TV/program/show appearances.

    Quote Originally Posted by jjpm74 View Post
    Cal Ripken was one of the best in his day, but was he really more famous than the others of his generation?
    I'm going to say YES, at least he became more popular as his overall value diminished. Cal Ripken's fame grew as he aged, I believe. Ripken made 16 straight ASG Starting appearances (19 games total). No one else reaches to that kind of popular "fame". Ozzie Smith came the closest from the 80s/90s, I believe.
    Last edited by dgarza; 09-08-2011 at 06:56 AM.

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by dgarza View Post
    10. Wade Boggs
    Rethinking Boggs making my list so soon. He's low man on the totem pole, so he's really not making much of a difference here. If I replace him, It would be with Dan Brouthers or Lefty Grove. Not sure if it's worth make any low ranking changes now. Might just wait until the next round.

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