This is our seventy-fifth election in this project. The entire rules follow.
This election will end at 11:59:59 PM EST on November 4, 2011
The prior election, and the ballots of the 2009 voters, are in this thread
Researcher/advocate/mod
This is our seventy-fifth election in this project. The entire rules follow.
This election will end at 11:59:59 PM EST on November 4, 2011
The prior election, and the ballots of the 2009 voters, are in this thread
Last edited by jalbright; 10-31-2011 at 03:27 PM.
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
Rules
1) BBF users in good standing may participate, provided they have not been banned from multiple projects in this forum. Anyone who has been told his or her votes will not count in more than one project in this forum will not have his or her vote counted unless he or she applies to the project manager for the right to vote and gets that request granted. However, if there is more than one vote being cast from any one computer or IP, it must be cleared in advance. Should there be unannounced multiple votes from the same IP, I will investigate the circumstances, and all user names involved may be barred from this project as a result, and all but one of the multiple usernames permanently banned from the site. I only anticipate exceptions for family members living in the same home, but I will entertain requests on other bases. Please note that I and the other mods who participate in the project have the capability of determining the IP from which posts come, and I for one intend to monitor same. I have had to deal with a single user manipulating a project with multiple votes, and I don't intend to repeat the experience.
2) Elections will require a 10 voter quorum. If we do not get ten voters and there are candidate(s) who would be elected no matter what the voters needed to make a quorum did, those candidate(s) will be inducted. Otherwise, no one will be inducted. Further, if we fail to elect a full complement of candidates for the ballot in question in two of any four consecutive elections, the portion(s) of the project failing to meet the election requirement will end. If, for instance, we're doing fine on the player end but not the contributor end, I would drop the contributor end under this rule.
3) We will start in 1936, just as Cooperstown did. For the first election (1936), voters will rank their top 20, taking 10. After that we will go to having voters rank their top 12 players. Points awarded 12-11-10, etc. We will take the top five through 1940, then top three players per year elected until 2010, then two per year. If a voter does not number his selections, I will try to get him/her to do so. If they do not do so before the end of the election period, I may in my sole discretion invalidate the ballot. I have included this provision in order to ease the process of recording the votes. On another point, I know, the 1936 backlog is huge--but that was a historical issue they couldn't avoid, so neither will we.
4) We will also have a contributor ballot, which will elect one a year through 1985, then one every three (3) years. Contributors will be ranked 1 through 5, with points awarded 5-4-3-2-1. Voters may choose to participate in either one of the ballots or both.
5) It is permissible to vote for a candidate on both the contributor and player lists.
6) You are allowed to change your ballot at any time the voting is open. However, if you change your ballot, you've got to notify me (jalbright) by PM or by a new post in the voting thread, or the changes likely will not be registered.
7) Players are eligible at the later of age 45 or the first year thereafter in which the player does not play. If the birthdate is not known, add five years to the first time the player misses a season and has less than 10 games the next season. There is an exception for early death, in which case the year of death plus two will be used if that yields an earlier date.
8) Contributors become eligible at age 65 or in the year of death plus two. whichever comes first.
9) Each election will run for approximately two weeks unless expressly altered by the project manager, contributors and players done simultaneously.
10) No one is excluded from being a candidate, regardless of the league they played in, except those elected in either the contributor or player ballots. At that point, they are removed from further consideration. If there are players who returned to the Negro Leagues or Japan after going to the majors, the departure from the majors will be their career end date for purposes of this project.
11) The standard for including a player on one's ballot is that the player must in the voter's opinion be among the very best eligible players (preferably the number voted on, but if a voter wishes to support someone they feel is 15th in a 12 person ballot instead of one of the top 12, it's too close for anyone to reasonably object. On the other hand, supporting the 25th best eligible candidate on a 12 person ballot is probably beyond the pale). I reserve the power to invalidate ballots which I do not feel are a reasonably knowledgeable, good faith effort to rank the players. One issue I am quite concerned about is that I do not want to see what clearly appear to be attempts to manipulate the ballot so as to elect a candidate. In isolation, I probably could live with this, but if it became a widely used tactic, the project would devolve into something I have no desire to be associated with. Moreover, I think that this position asks everyone else to cast legitimate votes so that you can manipulate the system to favor your pet candidates. I cannot accept that, as it strikes me as unfair to other voters. For example, you can't expect to favor even a legitimate HOF candidate like Bill Dahlen over Babe Ruth to get Dahlen elected without being asked to provide a reasonable justification for ranking Dahlen over Ruth. If you can provide a reasonable justification in that scenario, the ballot will stand. If not, you will be asked to make a change. I realize voters will sometimes have idiosyncratic choices, and I try to allow for that. However, a clear flouting of a consensus is apt to be met with a request that the ballot be justified pursuant to this rule. Certainly, a reasonable justification does not indicate in essence simply that you want Dahlen elected. Furthermore, if I invalidate multiple ballots by the same individual as failing to meet this rule, that individual will forever lose the right to have his/her ballots counted. Voters are encouraged to consider character, sportsmanship, and compliance with the rules and spirit of baseball in their rankings of players.
12) I will post lists of eligible players and contributors before each election. If you have a question about the eligibility of a candidate, please ask. I will provide a list of future eligibility dates as well.
13) My eligibility lists come from all persons in the BBF HOF, BBTF Hall of Merit, and Cooperstown, plus all persons getting a vote in a BBF HOF election in the past year and a half or in a BBWAA election. This is a relatively comprehensive list, and thus I must request that if you want another candidate included, you provide some justification for why said candidate is worthy of getting a vote in this project. The main area I think this might come into play is if a voter supports a person who was eligible for the final selections from the recent pre WWII or Negro League committees but not on my master list. That fact alone would serve as ample justification for putting said candidate on the list. We may learn more about Cuban ball or what have you and thus include others after a case is made for them, however. The contributor list is undoubtedly not as comprehensive, and this fact will be taken into consideration. For players, any request for a multiple time all-star in the all-star era will be approved. Players of that quality will generally be approved without much ado. However, when a player lacks that kind of qualification, I will likely ask for you to get a second from among our voters via a post in the current election thread. When in doubt, I will also require a second for suggested contributors. If a second is forthcoming, the player will be added. If not, the request will be rejected. I want to limit requests and seconds to players or contributors you actually might vote for.
14) Other than the sportsmanship and character issues, players are to be evaluated solely upon their play. I would prefer that if a player is qualified by his play standing alone that he be elected on that basis. However, a candidate may only be elected either as a contributor or a player, but not both. Contributors are the area where the entire body of work during his career in the sport, including his play, managing, scouting, executive, writing, broadcasting or other work in the sport is relevant. Contributors are to be ranked based on who the voter thinks is most worthy of induction into the Contributor group in this project.
15) Any ballot with two (2) or more spots unfilled with eligible candidates is invalid. In the event of the listing of ineligible names, I will try to notify the voter so that he/she can correct the ballot before the end of the voting period. If the change is made timely, it will count. If not, and there are two or more invalid names, the ballot will not be considered valid. If there is only one, the ineligible name will be stricken and all names after it on the affected ballot will be moved up one spot.
16) Any players listed beyond the 12th place for any ballot but the first (in which case it is 20th place) will be ignored. If more than one person is listed as tied for the last available place and the ballot is oversize, all names will be dropped, which may lead to the invalidation of the ballot.
17) Ties are not permitted in ballot listings. I reserve the right to invalidate ballots for use of ties in the rankings, be it within a single ballot or over the course of several ballots. If the voter does not correct such a listing voluntarily, except in the case of an oversize ballot tie for the last eligible place, if do not invalidate the ballot, I will choose the placement of the two "tied" candidates, generally preferring the candidate preferred by the other voters.
18) For any ties between candidates straddling the in/out line of selections, the first thing considered is the ranking of the candidates by the ballots cast. If there are more than two candidates tied, use a 2-1-0 or whatever is appropriate for the number of players tied system. If a voter does not list a candidate, he receives zero points in the tiebreaker procedure. Once one person separates from the tied group, restart with the remaining candidates until there are only as many candidates as the rules call for being elected. If they remain tied after this process, the candidate with the most votes received wins. If it is still tied after that, those with the most #1 votes as the next step, then the most #2 votes and so on to see if that breaks the tie. If not, we will induct all candidates who remain tied at that point.
19) One thing we're going to have to be aware of is the timeline in the case of at least a few contributors. Two which jump out at me are Buck O'Neill, 1976, and Branch Rickey, 1946. I intend to eventually vote for both men, but in 1946, Jackie Robinson was still in Montreal. Really, Branch should wait until at least 1947 after Jackie's success in the majors to get credit for that move. If you think Rickey belongs in the top 5 in 1946 without his role in breaking the color line, that's fine--but he shouldn't get credit for that important success until it actually happened. Buck O'Neill did some important things up until 1976, but after that he was in Ken Burns' Baseball and he was instrumental in the establishment of the Negro Leagues Hall of Fame (both occurred in or around 1994). If you think he belongs based on accomplishments before those two things, that's perfectly acceptable, but please don't credit him with them before they actually happened.
20) I will maintain a thread of the project's history and rules which will provide a listing of all elected candidates.
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
The players who become eligible in 2010 are:
The contributors who become eligible in 2010 are:Code:Biggio , Craig Brown , Kevin Johnson , Randy Morris , Hal Rijo , Jose Stottlemyre , Todd
Code:Bowa , Larry Messersmith , Andy
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
The 2009 player candidates who were not elected had these results in that election:
The 2008 contributor candidates who were not elected had these results in that election:Code:players………………. votes points Brock, Lou 5 43 Bando, Sal 5 39 Rixey, Eppa 6 36 Aparicio, Luis 5 33 McGriff, Fred 3 28 Palmiero, R 4 27 Shocker, Urban 4 27 Puckett, Kirby 4 24 Beckley , Jake 3 23 Mullane , Tony 4 22 Berger , Wally 3 20 Pierce, Billy 5 15 Duffy , Hugh 2 13 Dandridge, Ray 4 11 Sutter, Bruce 3 11 Nettles, Graig 3 10 Saberhagen, B 1 10 Grimes , B 2 9 Lundy , Dick 1 9 Evans, Darrell 1 8 Leach , Tommy 1 8 Randolph, W 2 8 Munson, Thurman 1 7 Quisenberry, D 2 7 Sewell , Joe 1 7 Fingers, Rollie 1 6 Gomez, Lefty 1 6 Bonds, Bobby 1 5 Howard, Frank 1 5 Cepeda, Orlando 1 4 Murphy, Dale 1 4 Newcombe, Don 1 4 Perez, Tony 2 4 Smith, Chino 3 4 Jones, Charley 1 3 Campaneris, B 1 2 Evers, Johnny 1 2 Pike, Lip 1 1 Rice, Sam 1 1
I strongly suggest that you pay attention to these lists, as the leaders of the holdovers are likely to join any strong newcomer candidates as the leaders for winning induction.Code:contributors…………… votes pts Neft, David 5 20 LaRussa, Tony 4 17 Gillick, Pat 6 12 Mizuhara, S 5 9 Schuerhotlz, J 3 9 Harvey, Doug 3 7 Smith, Red 3 7 Martin, Billy 3 7 Harris , Bucky 1 5 Jobe, Frank 1 5 Pompez, Alex 2 5 Harwell, Ernie 1 4 McCarthy, Tommy 1 4 O'Doul, Lefty 1 4 Pesky, Johnny 1 4 Johnson, Davey 1 3 Mauch, Gene 1 2 Uecker, Bob 1 1
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
Members of the Best of Baseball Hall. Last election's inductees are in red.
Players
ContributorsCode:Hank Aaron Pete Alexander Dick Allen Cap Anson Luke Appling Richie Ashburn Earl Averill Frank Baker Ernie Banks Ross Barnes John Beckwith Cool Papa Bell Johnny Bench Charlie Bennett Yogi Berra Akira Bessho Bert Blyleven Wade Boggs Barry Bonds Lou Boudreau Ken Boyer Roger Bresnahan George Brett Dan Brouthers Mordecai Brown Ray Brown Willard Brown Jim Bunning Jesse Burkett Roy Campanella Rod Carew Max Carey Gary Carter Steve Carlton Bob Caruthers Perucho Cepeda Oscar Charleston Cupid Childs Will Clark Fred Clarke John Clarkson Roger Clemens Roberto Clemente Ty Cobb Mickey Cochrane Eddie Collins Jimmy Collins Roger Connor Stan Coveleski Sam Crawford Joe Cronin Bill Dahlen George Davis Andre Dawson Dizzy Dean Ed Delahanty Bill Dickey Martin Dihigo Joe DiMaggio Larry Doby Bobby Doerr Don Drysdale Dennis Eckersley Dwight Evans Buck Ewing Red Faber Bob Feller Wes Ferrell Carlton Fisk Elmer Flick Whitey Ford Willie Foster Nellie Fox Jimmie Foxx Bill Freehan Frankie Frisch Pud Galvin Lou Gehrig Charlie Gehringer Bob Gibson Josh Gibson Jack Glasscock Joe Gordon George Gore Goose Goslin Goose Gossage Frank Grant Hank Greenberg Bobby Grich Heinie Groh Lefty Grove Tony Gwynn Stan Hack Billy Hamilton Isao Harimoto Gabby Hartnett Harry Heilmann Rickey Henderson Billy Herman Keith Hernandez Pete Hill Paul Hines Rogers Hornsby Carl Hubbell Kazuhisa Inao Monte Irvin Joe Jackson Reggie Jackson Ferguson Jenkins Hughie Jennings Grant "Home Run"Johnson Walter Johnson Addie Joss Al Kaline Masaichi Kaneda Tim Keefe Willie Keeler Charlie Keller Joe Kelley King Kelly Harmon Killebrew Ralph Kiner Sandy Koufax Masaaki Koyama Nap LaJoie Barry Larkin Bob Lemon Buck Leonard Pop Lloyd Ted Lyons Biz Mackey Sherry Magee Mickey Mantle Juan Marichal Edgar Martinez Eddie Mathews Christy Mathewson Willie Mays Willie McCovey Joe McGinnity Mark McGwire Bid McPhee Joe Medwick Jose Mendez Minnie Minoso Johnny Mize Paul Molitor Dobie Moore Joe Morgan Eddie Murray Stan Musial Shigeo Nagashima Hal Newhouser Kid Nichols Phil Niekro Katsuya Nomura Hiromitsu Ochiai Sadaharu Oh Alejandro Oms Jim O'Rourke Mel Ott Satchel Paige Jim Palmer Gaylord Perry Eddie Plank Charlie Radbourn Tim Raines Pee Wee Reese Rick Reuschel Cal Ripken, Jr. Robin Roberts Brooks Robinson Frank Robinson Jackie Robinson Bullet Joe Rogan Pete Rose Edd Roush Red Ruffing Amos Rusie Babe Ruth Nolan Ryan Ryne Sandberg Ron Santo Louis Santop Mike Schmidt Tom Seaver Jimmy Sheckard Al Simmons Ted Simmons George Sisler Enos Slaughter Hilton Smith Ozzie Smith Reggie Smith Duke Snider Warren Spahn Tris Speaker Victor Starffin Willie Stargell Joe Start Turkey Stearnes Harry Stovey Mule Suttles Don Sutton Ezra Sutton Bill Terry Sam Thompson Luis Tiant Joe Torre Cristobal Torriente Alan Trammell Pie Traynor Quincy Trouppe Dazzy Vance Arky Vaughan Rube Waddell Honus Wagner Bobby Wallace Ed Walsh Paul Waner John M. Ward Willie Wells Zack Wheat Lou Whitaker Deacon White Hoyt Wilhelm Billy Williams Smoky Joe Williams Ted Williams Jud Wilson Dave Winfield George Wright Early Wynn Jimmy Wynn Carl Yastrzemski Cy Young Robin Yount
Code:Iso Abe Doc Adams Mel Allen Walter Alston Sparky Anderson Red Barber Ed Barrow Buzzue Bavasi Ed Bolden Alexander Cartwright O. P. Caylor Henry Chadwick Frank Chance Charlie Commiskey Charles Conlon Tom Connolly Bobby Cox Jim Creighton Jack Dunn Leo Durocher Al Munro Elias Billy Evans Bob Ferguson Rube Foster Ford Frick Gus Greenlee Clark Griffith Ned Hanlon Vic Harris Whitey Herzog William Hulbert Miller Huggins Ban Johnson Tetsuharu Kawakami Bill Klem Kenesaw Landis Tommy Lasorda Al Lopez Connie Mack Larry MacPhail Joe McCarthy John McGraw Bill McKechnie Marvin Miller Walter O'Malley Buck O'Neill Dickey Pearce Cum Posey A. J. Reach Francis Richter Branch Rickey Phil Rizzuto Jacob Ruppert Vin Scully Frank Selee Ben Shibe Matsutaro Shoriki Billy Southworth Al Spalding Alfred Spink J. G. T. Spink George Steinbrenner Casey Stengel C. I. Taylor Kazuto Tsuruoka Bill Veeck Earl Weaver George Weiss Sol White J. L. Wilkinson Dick Williams Harry Wright
Last edited by jalbright; 10-22-2011 at 09:55 AM.
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
The complete list of eligible players:
The complete list of eligible contributors:Code:Adams , Babe Adams , Bobby Adams , Sparky Aguilera , Rick Allen , Johnny Alou , Jesus Alou , Matty Alou, Felipe Altrock , Nick Aparicio, Luis Archer , Jimmy Arlett , Buzz Austin , Jimmy Avila, Bobby Bailey , Bob Baines , Harold Baker , Dusty Bancroft , Dave Bando, Sal Barry , Jack Bartell , Dick Battin , Joe Bauer , Hank Baylor , Don Beaumont , Ginger Beck , Rod Beckert, Glenn Beckley , Jake Bedrosian , Steve Belanger , Mark Bell , Buddy Bell , George Bender , Chief Benton , Larry Berg , Moe Bergen , Marty Berger , Wally Berry , Charlie Bibby , Jim Bichette , Dante Bigbee , Carson Biggio , Craig Billingham , Jack Bishop , Max Blackwell , Ewell Blades , Ray Blair , Paul Blass , Steve Blue , Lu Blue , Vida Bluege , Ossie Bodie , Ping Boley , Joe Bond , Tommy Bonds , Bobby Bonilla , Bobby Boone, Bob Bottomley , Jim Bowa , Larry Boyer , Clete Bradley , Bill Brecheen , Harry Breitenstein , Ted Brewer , Jim Bridges , Tommy Brock, Lou Brown , Kevin Browning , Pete Browning , Tom Bruton, Bill Buckner , Bill Buhner , Jay Burdette , Lew Burgess , Smoky Burns , George J. Burroughs , Jeff Bush , Joe Bush , Donie Bush , Guy Butler , Brett Cadore , Leon Camilli , Dolph Caminiti , Ken Camnitz , Howie Campaneris , Bert Campbell , Bill Candelaria , John Candiotti , Tom Canseco , Jose Cardenal , Jose Cardenas , Leo Carrasquel. Chico Carrigan , Bill Carroll, Clay Carter , Joe Case , George Cash , Dave Cash, Norm Cavaretta , Phil Cedeno , Cesar Cepeda , Orlando Cey , Ron Chandler , Spud Chapman , Ben Chapman , Ray Chapman , Sam Chase , Hal Chesbro , Jack Cicotte , Eddie Cissell , Bill Clark , Jack Clark , Watty Clarkson , Bus Clift, Harlond Coakley , Andy Colavito, Rocky Coleman , Vince Collins , Shano Combs , Earle Concepcion , Dave Cone, David Conroy , Wid Coombs , Jack Cooper , Andy Cooper , Mort Cooper , Walker Cooper , Wilbur Courtney , Clint Cox , Billy Crandall , Doc Crandall, Del Cravath , Gavvy Criger , Lou Critz , Hughie Cross , Lave Crowder , Al Cruise , Walt Cruz , Jose Cuccinello , Tony Cummings , Candy Cuyler , Kiki Dandridge , Ray Danning , Harry Dark , Alvin Darling , Ron Daubert , Jake Daulton , Darren Davis , Chili Davis , Curt Davis , Eric Davis , Harry Davis , Mark Davis , Spud Day , Leon DeCinces, Doug Dempsey , Rick Denny , John Dent , Bucky Derringer , Paul Deshaies , Jim DiMaggio , Dom Dinneen , Bill Doak , Bill Donaldson, John Donlin , Mike Donovan , Bill Dooin , Red Downing, Bryan Doyle , Jack Doyle , Larry Drabek , Doug Dropo , Walt Duffy , Hugh Dugan , Joe Dunlap , Fred Dunston , Shawon Dykes , Jimmy Dykstra , Lenny Earnshaw , George Easter, Luke Edwards , Hank Ehmke , Howard Eisenreich , Jim Elberfeld , Kid Elliott , Bob Elliott , Jumbo Ellis , Dock Enatsu , Yutaka Ennis, Del Ens , Jewel Erskine , Carl Evans , Darrell Evers , Johnny Face, Roy Fairly , Ron Falkenberg , Cy Fernandez , Sid Fernandez , Tony Ferrell , Rick Fielder , Cecil Fingers , Rollie Finley , Chuck Fitzsimmons , Freddie Flanagan , Mike Fletcher , Art Flood , Curt Fonseca , Lew Forsch, Bob Foster , Eddie Foster , George Franco , John Fraser , Chick Fregosi , Jim Furillo , Carl Gaetti , Gary Galan , Augie Galarraga , Andres Garner , Phil Garver, Ned Garvey , Steve Gelbert , Charlie Gibson , Kirk Gleason , Kid Gomez , Lefty Gonzalez , Mike Gooden , Dwight Gowdy , Hank Grace , Mark Grant , Eddie Grantham , George Greenwell , Mike Griffey, Sr, Ken Grimes , Burleigh Grimm , Charlie Grissom , Marv Groat, Dick Gromek , Steve Grove , Orval Guerrero , Pedro Guidry, Ron Guillen , Ozzie Gullickson , Bill Gustine , Frank Haas , Mule Haddix, Harvey Hafey , Chick Hahn , Noodles Haines , Jesse Hallahan , Bill Harder , Mel Hargrave , Bubbles Hargrove , Mike Harrah , Toby Harrelson , Bud Harris , Bucky Harris , Vic Hatton , Grady Hearn , Jim Hebner , Richie Hegan , Jim Helms, Tommy Hemus , Solly Henderson , Dave Henke , Tom Henrich , Tommy Herman , Babe Hernandez , Willie Hershiser , Orel Herzog , Buck Hickman , Jim Higgins , Mike Hiller , John Hinchman , Bill Hodges, Gil Holmes , Tommy Holtzman , Ken Honeycutt , Rick Hooper , Harry Hooton, Burt Horton , Willie Hough, Charlie Houtteman , Art Howard , Frank Howard, Elston Hoy , Dummy Hoyt , Waite Hrabosky , Al Hrbek , Kent Huggins , Miller Hunter , Catfish Hurst , Bruce Hutchinson , Fred Irwin , Charlie Jackman , Will Jackson , Sonny Jensen , Jackie John , Tommy Johnson , Bob Johnson , Davey Johnson , Judy Johnson , Randy Jones , Charley Jones , Doug Jones , Fielder Jones , Sam P. Jordan , Tim Jorgenson , Mike Judge , Joe Jurges , Billy Kaat, Jim Kamm , Willie Kawakami , Tetsuharu Kell , George Keltner , Ken Kennedy , Terry Kerr , Dickie Kessinger , Don Key , Jimmy Kile , Darryl Killefer , Bill Kilroy , Matt Kinder , Ellis Kingman , Dave Klein , Chuck Kling , Johnny Kluszewski, Ted Knabe , Otto Knight , Ray Koosman , Jerry Kremer , Ray Kress , Red Kruk , John Krukow , Mike Kuenn, Harvey Kuhel , Joe Kuzava , Bob Lange , Bill Lanier , Hal Lansford , Carney Larkin , Henry Larsen, Don Latham , Arlie Lavagetto , Cookie Law, Vern Lazzeri , Tony Leach , Freddy Leach , Tommy Lee , Bill Lee , Bill (Spaceman) Leever , Sam Lemon , Chet Leonard , Dennis Leonard , Emil (Dutch) Lewis , Duffy Lewis, Buddy Lindstrom , Freddie Lobert , Hans Lockman , Whitey Lolich, Mickey Lollar, Sherm Lombardi , Ernie Lonborg , Jim Long , Herman Lopat , Ed Lopes , Davey Lopez , Al Lowe , Bobby Lowenstein , John Lucas , Red Lundy , Dick Luque , Dolf Luzinski, Greg Lyle , Sparky Lynn , Fred Lyons , Denny Madlock , Bill Maglie , Sal Maloney, Jim Mancuso , Gus Manush , Heinie Maranville , Rabbit Marberry , Firpo Marion , Marty Maris, Roger Marquard , Rube Marshall , Mike G. Martin , Morrie Martin , Pepper Martinez , Dennis Martinez, Edgar Mathews , Bobby Mattingly , Don May , Lee Mays , Carl Mazeroski , Bill McAleer , Jimmy McCarthy , Tommy McCarver , Tim McCormick , Frank McCormick , Jim McDaniel , Lindy McDougald, Gil McGowan , Bill McGraw , Tug McGriff, Fred McGwire, Mark McInnis , Stuffy McLain , Denny McLean , Larry McMahon, Don McManus , Marty McMillan, Roy McNally , Dave McVey , Cal Meadows , Lee Messersmith , Andy Meusel , Bob Miksis , Eddie Milan , Clyde Millan , Felix Miller , Bing Miller , Dots Miller , Hack Mitchell , Kevin Monday , Rick Money , Don Monroe , Bill Montgomery , Jeff Moon, Wally Moore , Jo-Jo Moore , Terry Moran , Pat Morris , Hal Morris , Jack Mostil , Johnny Mota, Manny Mulcahy , Hugh Mullane , Tony Mungo , Van Munson , Thurman Murcer , Bobby Murphy , Dale Murphy , Danny Murray , Red Myer , Buddy Myers , Randy Nehf , Art Nettles , Graig Newcombe , Don Newsom , Bobo Nicholson , Bill Niekro , Joe Northey , Ron O'Doul , Lefty Oeschger , Joe O'Farrell , Bob O'Leary , Charlie Oliva, Tony Oliver , Al O'Neill , Paul O'Neill , Steve O'Neill , Tip Orr , Dave Pabor , Charlie Pafko , Andy Palmeiro , Rafael Parker , Dave Parrish , Lance Parrish , Larry Pascual, Camilo Paskert , Dode Pearson , Monte Peckinpaugh , Roger Peitz , Heinie Pena , Tony Pendleton , Terry Pennock , Herb Perdue , Hub Perez , Tony Perkins , Cy Perranoski , Ron Perry , Jim Pesky , Johnny Petrocelli, Rico Phillippe , Deacon Phillips , Tony Pierce , Billy Pike , Lip Piniella, Lou Pinson, Vada Pipp , Wally Podres, Johnny Poles , Spotswood Porterfield , Bob Powell , Boog Power , Vic Pruett , Hub Puckett , Kirby Puhl , Terry Quinn , Jack Quisenberry , Dan Randolph , Willie Raschi , Vic Raymond , Bugs Reardon , Jeff Redding , Dick Reiser , Pete Remsen , Jack Remy , Jerry Reynolds , Allie Rice , Del Rice , Jim Rice , Sam Richard, J R Richardson , Bobby Richardson , Hardy Righetti , Dave Rijo , Jose Ring , Jimmy Ritchey , Claude Rivers , Mickey Rixey , Eppa Robertson , Dave Roe , Preacher Rolfe , Red Rommel , Eddie Root , Charlie Rosen, Al Rucker , Nap Rudolph , Dick Ruel , Muddy Russell , Bill Ryan , Jimmy Saberhagen , Bret Sain , Johnny Samuel , Juan Sanguillen , Manny Sauer , Hank Sax , Steve Schacht , Al Schaefer , Germany Schalk , Ray Schang , Wally Schoendienst , Red Schreckengost , Ossie Schulte , Frank Scott , Everett Scott , George Scott , Jack Scott , Mike Selkirk , George Severeid , Hank Sewell , Joe Sewell , Luke Sewell , Rip Seymour , Cy Shantz, Bobby Sherdel , Bill Shocker , Urban Short , Chris Siebert , Sonny Sievers , Roy Simmons, Curt Singleton , Ken Sisti , Sibby Smalley , Roy Smith , Earl Smith , Lee Smith , Lonnie Smith , Sherry Sparks , Tully Speier, Chris Stahl , Jake Stanky , Eddie Stanley , Mickey Staub , Rusty Steinbach , Terry Steinfeldt , Harry Stephens , Vern Stephenson , Riggs Stewart , Dave Stieb , Dave Stottlemyre , Mel Stottlemyre , Todd Strawberry , Darryl Street , Gabby Suhr , Gus Sukeforth , Clyde Sundberg , Jim Sutcliffe , Rick Sutter , Bruce Sweeney , Bill Tannehill , Jesse Tartabull , Danny Taylor , Ben Tebbetts , Birdie Tekulve, Kent Templeton , Garry Tenace , Gene Tenney , Fred Thevenow , Tommy Thomas , Ira Thomson , Bobby Thornton , Andre Tiernan , Mike Tinker , Joe Tobin , Jim Toney , Fred Torgeson, Earl Torrez , Mike Travis, Cecil Trout , Dizzy Trucks , Virgil Tudor , John Turner , Terry Uhle , George Valentine , Ellis Valenzuela , Fernando Valo , Elmer Van Haltren , George Vander Meer , Johnny Veach , Bobby Vernon , Mickey Viola , Frank Walberg , Rube Walker , Harry Wallach , Tim Walters , Bucky Wambsganss , Bill Waner , Lloyd Warfield , Frank Warneke , Lon Watson , Bob Weiss , Walt Welch , Bob Welch , Mickey Wells , David Werber , Billy Wertz, Vic West , Sam Westrum , Wes White , Sol White , Will White, Frank Whitehill , Earl Williams , Cy Williams , Ken Williamson , Ned Willis , Vic Wills, Maury Wilson , Hack Wilson , Jim Wilson , Jimmie Wilson , Willie Witt , Whitey Wood , Joe Wood , Wilbur Wright , Glenn Wyatt , Whit Yamamoto , Koji Yeager , Steve Yerkes , Steve York , Rudy Young , Pep Youngs , Ross Zachary , Tom Zimmer , Chief
Code:Alou , Felipe Ashford, Emmet Autry, Gene Bancroft , Frank Barlick, Al Berger , Sy Bouton , Jim Bowa , Larry Brickhouse , Jack Buck , Jack Bulkely , Morgan Busch , Augie Cambria , Joe Campbell , Jim Canel, Buck Caray , Skip Caray, Harry Carrigan, Bill Chandler, Happy Chylak , Nestor Conlan , Jocko Cooper , Andy Cummings , Candy Dark , Alvin Davids , Bob Dinneen , Bill Doubleday , Abner Doucet , Jacques Dreyfuss , Barney Dyer , Eddie Dykes , Jimmy Feller, Sherm Fetzer, John Flood , Curt Foster , John B. Fowler, Bud Fregosi , Jim Fullerton , Hugh Giles , Warren Gillick , Pat Gleason , Kid Gonzalez , Mike Gowdy , Curt Grimm, Charlie Haak , Howie Haney , Fred Harridge, Willie Harris , Bucky Harvey, Doug Harwell, Ernie Hemond , Roland Heydler, John Hillerich , John Hodges, Gil Hodges, Russ Houk , Ralph Howsam, Bob Hubbard , Cal Hutchinson , Fred Jobe , Frank Johnson, Davey Kaat , Jim Krichell, Paul Kuenn , Harvey Kuhn , Bowie Lanier , Hal Lanigan, Ernest Lardner , Ring Leavitt, Jr. , Charles W. Luque , Dolf MacPhail, Lee Manley , Effa Martin , Billy Mauch , Gene McCarthy , Tommy McCarver, Tim McGowan, Bill Messersmith , Andy Mills , A. G. Mizuhara, Shigeru Moran , Pat Murnane, Tim Murtaugh, Danny Mutrie , Jim Navin , Frank Neft , David Nelson , Lindsey Norworth, Jack O'Day, Hank O'Doul, Lefty O'Neill, Steve Osborn , Frank Palmer , Pete Pasquel, Jorge Patkin, Max Pesky , Johnny Piniella, Lou Pompez , Alex Pulliam, Harry Ramirez, Felo Reese , Jimmie Rice, Grantland Richards, Paul Ritter , Lawrence Robinson , Wilbert Schoendienst, Red Schuerholtz , John Selig , Bud Sewell , Luke Sheppard, Bob Smith, Red Stallings , George Street, Gabby Tanner , Chuck Thayer , Ernest Tyson, Ty Uecker , Bob van der Ahe, Chris Virdon, Bill Warfield , Frank Weyer , Lee Wilson , Horace Wrigley, Phil Yawkey, Tom
Last edited by jalbright; 10-24-2011 at 04:06 PM.
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
My ballot
Players
1. Randy Johnson
2. Craig Biggio
3. Sal Bando
4. Hugh Duffy
5. Tony Mullane
6. Graig Nettles
7. Bobby Bonds
8. Willie Randolph
9. Bruce Sutter
10. Dan Quisenberry
11. Chino Smith
12. Darrell Evans
Contributors
1. Tony LaRussa
2. David Neft
3. Pat Gillick
4. Shigeru Mizuhara
5. John Scheurholtz
On the contributor side, John Scheurholtz joins the ballot. There are two new player candidates, in spots 1 and 2: Randy Johnson and Craig Biggio. Darrell Evans returns to the ballot in the #12 spot.
My queue:
Players: Yutaka Enatsu and Bus Clarkson
Contributors: Bucky Harris, and Alex Pompez
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Registered User
Players:
1. Randy Johnson
2. Craig Biggio
3. Lou Brock
4. Jake Beckley
5. Tony Mullane
6. Ray Dandridge
7. Luis Aparicio
8. Eppa Rixey
9. Billy Pierce
10. Rafael Palmeiro
11. Sam Rice
12. Kirby Puckett
Contributors:
1. Harry Caray
2. Tony LaRussa
3. David Neft
4. John Schuerholz
5. Bob Uecker
2004 & 2007
Players:
1. Randy Johnson
2. Craig Biggio
3. Lou Brock
4. Luis Aparicio
5. Eppa Rixey
6. Wally Berger
7. Sal Bando
8. Bruce Sutter
9. Dan Quisenberry
10. Kirby Puckett
11. Ray Dandridge
12. Chino Smith
Contributors:
1. David Neft
2. Shigeru Mizuhara
3. Tony LaRussa
4. Alex Pompez
5. John Scheurholtz
Registered User
01. Randy Johnson
02. Craig Biggio
03. Jake Beckley
04. Urban Shocker
05. Wally Berger
06. Sal Bando
07. Billy Pierce
08. Willie Randolph
09. Tony Mullane
10. Chino Smith
11. Eppa Rixey
12. Hugh Duffy
01. Frank Jobe
02. Lefty O'Doul
03. Pat Gillick
04. Shigeru Mizuhara
05. Tony LaRussa
Registered User
Players:
1. Randy johnson
2. Sal Bando
3. Kirby Puckett
4. Craig Biggio
5. Urban Shocker
6. Thurman Munson
7. Kevin Brown
8. Hugh Duffy
9. Dale Murphy
10. Charley Jones
11. Bruce Sutter
12. Lip Pike
Contributors:
1. David Neft
2. Alex Pompez
3. Pat Gillick
4. Billy Martin
5. Tony LaRussa
Contributor queue: Shigeru Mizuhara, Jocko Conlan, Cal Hubbard, Lefty O'Doul
Player queue: Wally Schang, Dave Cone, Jake Beckley, Hardy Richardson, Chino Smith
Last edited by jjpm74; 10-24-2011 at 04:50 PM. Reason: added Dave Cone to my queue
1. Randy Johnson
2. Craig Biggio
3. Fred McGriff
4. Rafael Palmeiro
5. Tommy Leach
6. Lou Brock
7. Kevin Brown
8. Frank Howard
9. Orlando Cepeda
10. Tony Perez
11. Johnny Evers
12. Ray Dandridge
of this year: Darrell Evans
back soon: Sal Bando, Vada Pinson
in the wings: Dave bancroft, Maranville, Puckett, Larry Doyle, Bob Elliott, Dale Murphy, Oliva, Shocker, Willis and Tommy John to name a few or make that a bunch.
1. Red Smith
2. Tommy McCarthy
3. Doug Harvey
4. Shigeru Mizuhara
5. Pat Gillick
OSHA-certified Moderator
1. Randy Johnson
2. Craig Biggio
3. Kirby Puckett
4. Fred McGriff
5. Burleigh Grimes
6. Luis Aparicio
7. Lefty Gomez
8. Eppa Rixey
9. Jake Beckley
10. Lou Brock
11. Ray Dandridge
12. Tony Perez
Contributors
1. Tony LaRussa
2. Bucky Harris
3. Ernie Harwell
4. Doug Harvey
5. Red Smith
Missed LaRussa the last time around.
Tom Tresh George Kell Mark Fidrych Bob Feller
Ernie Harwell Soupy Sales Alex Chilton Sparky Anderson
Joe Nuxhall Gary Carter MCA Emanuel Steward
Sonny Elliot Dave Brubeck Earl Weaver Stan Musial
Jonathan Winters Neil Armstrong Roger Ebert Anthony Zahler
Ray Manzarek
a posse ad esse
Players
1. Randy Johnson
2. Craig Biggio
3. Rafael Palmeiro
4. Eppa Rixey
5. Kevin Brown
6. Joe Sewell
7. Rollie Fingers
8. Luis Aparicio
9. Wally Berger
10. Billy Pierce
11. Kirby Puckett
12. Graig Nettles
Three more newbies replace the elected.
Contributors
1. John Schuerholz
2. Pat Gillick
3. Davey Johnson
4. Billy Martin
5. Doug Harvey
Another small shakeup - I've decided to bump up Pat Gillick and add Doug Harvey instead of Augie Busch, in hopes of getting more GMs and/or umpires elected.
September 16, 2012: The Losing Streak Ends
Registered User
1 Randy Johnson
2 Lou Brock
3 Craig Biggio
4 Fred McGriff
5 Eppa Rixey
6 Luis Aparicio
7 Sal Bando
8 Tony Mullane
9 Urban Schocker
10 Billy Pierce
11 Jake Beckley
12 Burliegh Grimes
Contributors
1 David Neft
2 Tony LaRussa
3 Pat Gillick
4 Billy Martin
5 Red Smith
Bleed the Freak
Shouldn't David Cone be eligible?
Born in 1963, but I don't see him amongst the listed eligibles, and he hasn't been mentioned in the top newbies.
Thanks.
Researcher/advocate/mod
You're right, and he now is going to be so listed.Originally Posted by Jar of Flies
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Bleed the Freak
Ballot 2010:
1 Randy Johnson
2 Kevin Brown
3 Craig Biggio
4 Bret Saberhagen
5 Dick Lundy
6 Darrell Evans
7 Rafael Palmeiro
8 David Cone
9 Don Newcombe
10 Urban Shocker
11 Graig Nettles
12 Billy Pierce
Contributors:
1 Tony LaRussa
2 Johnny Pesky
3 Pat Gillick
4 John Schierholtz
5 Shigeru Mizuhara
After doing a detailed analysis of starting pitchers, I came to one conclusion: Kevin Brown had an outstanding under the radar career.
By the numbers, I can't help but put Kevin Brown #2 on my ballot. By WAR, Baseball Prospectus/Joe Dimino/my adjusted
WARP/PA figures, and Fangraphs -FIP make Brown toast of the town compared to the current eligibles.
Main argument against is the depth of 1990s starting pitchers. Plenty of 1970s hurlers were elected, including Rick Reuschel,
Jim Palmer, and Don Sutton who are lower on my totem pole. PLEASE PLEASE CONSIDER BROWN! THANKS!
Factoring all three measures, I show Saberhagen as moving a notch ahead of the remaining competition. Was dominate
in the 1980s and was a quality hurler in the early 90s. Career value similar to remaining eligibles, but peak separates him for me.
Please take a close look at his candidacy.
Posting of top 15 seasons by leading candidates from the backlog:
WAR seasons of 1 or greater.
67.3 8.4 7.5 6.5 6.4 5.8 5.4 4.6 4.4 3.3 3.2 2.9 2.5 2.5 2.1 1.8 Brown
57.2 8.6 7.3 7.0 6.7 5.0 3.5 3.4 3.3 2.8 2.6 2.3 1.8 1.5 1.4 0.0 Saberhagen
58.1 8.5 6.7 6.6 5.8 4.6 4.2 3.7 3.7 3.3 2.8 2.6 1.8 1.6 1.2 1.0 Cone
57.9 7.3 6.1 5.2 5.0 4.9 4.4 4.1 4.1 4.1 4.0 3.5 3.1 2.1 0.0 0.0 Newcombe
55.9 7.6 7.0 5.6 5.4 5.4 5.3 4.7 4.4 4.1 3.2 1.6 1.6 0.0 0.0 0.0 Shocker
52.4 6.9 6.9 6.2 5.4 5.2 5.0 3.5 3.2 2.5 2.3 1.9 1.2 1.2 1.1 0.0 Pierce
55.0 8.4 7.6 6.2 6.2 5.3 4.7 4.7 3.4 3.3 2.7 1.5 1.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 Appier
56.1 7.7 6.8 6.5 6.4 6.3 5.6 4.9 3.9 2.9 2.1 1.6 1.4 0.0 0.0 0.0 Stieb
56.2 7.5 6.6 6.3 4.6 4.6 4.4 4.4 4.2 2.9 2.8 2.4 2.3 2.0 1.2 0.0 Finley
51.8 8.1 7.7 7.3 7.0 5.4 4.9 3.6 3.5 3.1 1.2 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 Willis
54 10.6 10.2 6.8 6.6 5.6 5.1 5.0 2.7 1.8 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 McCormick (54.5)
50. 10.1 8.5 5.8 4.8 3.5 3.0 2.9 2.8 2.8 2.4 1.9 1.8 0.0 0.0 0.0 Cicotte (50.1)
50.6 6.0 5.3 4.7 4.0 4.0 3.8 3.8 3.3 2.9 2.8 2.2 2.1 2.0 2.0 1.9 Rixey
48. 11.7 5.4 4.4 3.8 3.7 3.3 3.1 2.9 2.7 2.6 2.2 1.6 1.2 0.0 0.0 Gooden (48.6)
59.3 8.0 7.8 6.7 5.9 5.6 5.3 4.5 4.0 3.6 3.2 2.8 2.1 0.0 0.0 0.0 Mullane
55.3 7.3 6.9 6.7 5.8 4.0 3.5 3.2 3.0 3.0 2.3 2.3 2.3 2.0 1.9 1.1 Hershiser
53.0 8.8 7.0 6.4 4.7 3.9 3.8 3.7 3.5 3.5 2.3 2.1 1.6 1.6 0.0 0.0 Adams
Newcombe estimated with negro league and war credit - reasonable approximation.
McCormick and Mullane estimated with discounts to AA/UL play - quite tough to nail down.
Rixey moves to 54.7 career WAR
Interpretation of Joe Dimino's PA updated for revised Baseball Prospectus DERA figures.
0.944 0.129 0.110 0.098 0.092 0.086 0.085 0.075 0.056 0.038 0.037 0.036 0.031 0.026 0.024 0.023 Brown
0.841 0.141 0.107 0.100 0.096 0.082 0.050 0.049 0.041 0.040 0.035 0.035 0.024 0.024 0.017 0.000 Saberhagen
0.929 0.122 0.098 0.095 0.093 0.083 0.080 0.075 0.075 0.056 0.051 0.035 0.032 0.021 0.013 0.000 Cone
0.778 0.097 0.096 0.092 0.084 0.064 0.061 0.059 0.056 0.052 0.041 0.022 0.021 0.019 0.015 0.000 Newcombe
0.767 0.110 0.098 0.085 0.076 0.072 0.071 0.059 0.058 0.057 0.040 0.023 0.017 0.001 0.000 0.000 Shocker
0.769 0.108 0.087 0.085 0.078 0.074 0.061 0.051 0.043 0.043 0.036 0.031 0.025 0.019 0.018 0.010 Pierce
0.828 0.125 0.103 0.096 0.089 0.081 0.076 0.066 0.062 0.051 0.034 0.023 0.021 0.000 0.000 0.000 Appier
0.748 0.115 0.094 0.092 0.091 0.070 0.069 0.057 0.054 0.052 0.025 0.014 0.010 0.002 0.000 0.000 Stieb
0.823 0.137 0.084 0.080 0.078 0.068 0.067 0.049 0.047 0.042 0.039 0.035 0.032 0.028 0.025 0.011 Finley
0.665 0.094 0.087 0.085 0.078 0.073 0.058 0.046 0.037 0.036 0.025 0.022 0.012 0.010 0.000 0.000 Willis
0.494 0.096 0.066 0.064 0.057 0.050 0.048 0.047 0.026 0.024 0.015 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 McCormick
0.712 0.143 0.142 0.075 0.066 0.043 0.042 0.041 0.037 0.030 0.027 0.026 0.019 0.016 0.003 0.000 Cicotte
0.782 0.093 0.078 0.072 0.066 0.054 0.053 0.050 0.047 0.042 0.041 0.039 0.039 0.038 0.036 0.033 Rixey
0.747 0.182 0.086 0.059 0.057 0.054 0.053 0.053 0.049 0.040 0.039 0.034 0.023 0.006 0.006 0.006 Gooden
0.412 0.084 0.079 0.050 0.048 0.043 0.035 0.023 0.018 0.016 0.014 0.002 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 Mullane
0.744 0.110 0.109 0.096 0.085 0.059 0.045 0.037 0.036 0.030 0.028 0.028 0.026 0.025 0.016 0.015 Hershiser
0.731 0.109 0.092 0.086 0.062 0.056 0.054 0.050 0.047 0.044 0.042 0.029 0.023 0.023 0.011 0.005 Adams
Notes - Rixey vaults to .895 career
Interpretation of Fangraphs -FIP.
43.5 6.1 4.7 4.1 4.1 4.1 3.9 3.4 3.0 2.4 2.3 1.8 1.5 1.0 0.9 0.2 Brown
34.1 5.5 4.5 3.8 2.9 2.9 2.7 2.5 1.8 1.7 1.7 1.5 1.1 0.9 0.6 0.0 Saberhagen
32.9 3.7 3.7 3.5 3.2 3.0 2.9 2.7 2.7 2.4 1.9 1.4 1.1 0.6 0.0 0.0 Cone
28.3 4.0 3.6 3.1 3.1 3.0 2.6 2.6 2.4 1.8 1.2 1.0 0.1 0.0 0.0 0.0 Newcombe
22.8 4.4 3.3 2.4 2.3 2.3 1.7 1.7 1.4 1.4 0.8 0.8 0.2 0.0 0.0 0.0 Shocker
30.9 4.3 3.8 3.7 3.6 3.4 3.3 1.7 1.7 1.5 1.3 1.1 0.7 0.4 0.3 0.3 Pierce
30.4 4.9 3.9 3.5 3.5 3.3 3.0 2.8 2.2 1.5 1.0 0.5 0.2 0.0 0.0 0.0 Appier
23.3 3.4 3.0 2.9 2.7 2.4 2.2 2.1 1.7 1.0 1.0 0.5 0.4 0.0 0.0 0.0 Stieb
28.9 3.0 3.0 2.7 2.7 2.6 2.4 2.3 2.3 2.3 2.1 1.3 0.8 0.5 0.5 0.4 Finley
23.2 4.0 3.2 3.2 2.6 2.2 1.9 1.7 1.4 1.3 1.2 0.3 0.2 0.0 0.0 0.0 Willis
15.6 4.7 2.5 2.4 1.8 1.3 1.2 0.7 0.7 0.1 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 McCormick
28.3 5.5 4.4 3.6 3.0 2.6 2.2 1.9 1.8 1.5 0.8 0.7 0.6 0.0 0.0 0.0 Cicotte
32.3 3.5 3.1 2.8 2.8 2.7 2.6 2.4 2.2 2.1 2.0 1.5 1.2 1.2 1.1 1.0 Rixey
30.0 6.4 5.3 3.4 3.0 2.6 2.5 1.8 1.7 1.2 1.0 0.8 0.4 0.0 0.0 0.0 Gooden
24.0 4.4 4.3 3.7 2.6 2.2 1.7 1.5 1.4 1.2 0.7 0.2 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 Mullane
22.4 3.8 3.7 3.1 2.7 2.4 1.9 1.3 1.2 1.0 0.9 0.3 0.2 0.0 0.0 0.0 Hershiser
30.4 4.3 4.0 3.4 3.4 2.8 2.3 2.3 2.2 1.8 1.2 0.8 0.7 0.7 0.4 0.1 Adams
Rixey jumps to 34.8
WPA
33.8 Brown
28.9 Saberhagen
25.6 Cone
Newcombe
Shocker
51.8 Pierce
26.9 Appier
22.3 Stieb
18.9 Finley
Willis
McCormick
Cicotte
Rixey
21.1 Gooden
Mullane
17.6 Hershiser
Adams
Players post 1950 are analyzed by baseball-reference WPA, estimates made for previous seasons
After Brown and Saberhagen, things become much cloudier, with personal methods of value causing large, but reasonable disagreement
within the backlog. My personal rankings show Cone, Newcombe, Shocker, and Pierce as ballot worthy.
Cone appears a nudge ahead of the remaining competition in WAR, PA, FIP, but it's quite close, and a tweak in system
or the emphasis of Win Shares could keep Coney lost in the shuffle.
I have spoken at length about Don Newcombe previous - a lot of assumptions place him on the ballot, understandable
if no else likes him as well - glad jjpm74 thinks he's worthy, just not at this juncture.
Shocker could easily be flipped with Pierce, deserves WWI credit, solid candidate, and groundswell of existing support by
the electorate only enhances his placement, along with Pierce - whose WPA puts him above the remaining candidates.
While the raw numbers show Kevin Appier as worthy of being included on my ballot and Chuck Finley to a lesser extent, I have
subjectively bumped them down a few notches with the high volume of greater candidates from the 1990s.
Glut of 1880s candidates Jim McCormick, Tony Mullane, Jim Whitney, and Charlie Buffinton all have virtues - difficult to
assess whether they belong above the crop eligible - were the 1880s as impressive as the 1970s or 1990s, or is it a challenge
of trying to approximate value in a game very different than today - John Clarkson, Tim Keefe, and Old Hoss Radbourn
were no brainers for the project, and Bob Caruthers and Pud Galvin were also selected. Bobby Mathews longevity
and Mickey Welch 300 victories earn them a nod of recognition, I just don't see them as quite as worthy.
Dave Stieb, Vic Willis, Eddie Cicotte, Eppa Rixey, Doc Gooden, Orel Hershiser, and Babe Adams are all within the
consideration set, but the standards for the Best of Baseball are tough, leaving them in the dust.
Rixey's career is quite impressive, a notch ahead of underrated Jack Quinn, but his peak makes him fall short for me.
Stieb's place among 1980s hurlers is elite - he may be overrlooked and due for a spot on ballot.
Among the relief crowd, Bruce Sutter, Lee Smith, and Rollie Fingers are of interest, and Trevor Hoffman will be in the mix
A convincing argument could move one of these guys into the near ballot queue.
A couple fans of Dan Quisenberry - I'm just not seeing it, but loved his windup and delivery.
Last edited by Jar of Flies; 10-25-2011 at 04:44 PM.
Researcher/advocate/mod
We've reached the 10 vote mark on both ballots, so we've reached the quorum mark. Here are the players which we'll add in 2011.
I'll be adding Glavine, Maddux, Schilling and Walker to my ballot.Code:Belle , Albert Glavine , Tom Justice , David McDowell , Jack Maddux, Greg Moyer, Jamie Schilling, Curt Walker , Larry Wetteland , John
On the contributor side, we'll add Bob Watson.
Last edited by jalbright; 10-25-2011 at 04:44 PM.
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Registered User
On paper, Kevin Brown is a clear HOFer. The problem is, he is also linked to PEDs and unlike someone like Clemens, the question, "is Kevin Brown still a HOFer without the use of PEDs" is much harder to answer which is what is keeping him off most ballots and also why I have him below rather than above Shocker.
Regarding Stieb, AG2004 did an excellent Keltner on him. Stieb is a tougher one to tie down given the brevity of his career. One other pitcher from that era that doesn't get enough attention is Frank Viola (even though he isn't a HOFer, IMO):Dave Stieb, Vic Willis, Eddie Cicotte, Eppa Rixey, Doc Gooden, Orel Hershiser, and Babe Adams are all within the
consideration set, but the standards for the Best of Baseball are tough, leaving them in the dust.
Researcher/advocate/mod
just bumping thread in hopes of getting more votes.
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Researcher/advocate/mod
We stayed at 10 votes in both ballots, and elected Craig Biggio, Lou Brock and Randy Johnson among the players and Tony LaRussa among the contributors. We'll give the official player results first:
Now the contributor results:Code:Player……………… votes pts Johnson, Randy 10 120 Biggio, Craig 10 106 Brock, Lou 5 41 Bando, Sal 5 40 Rixey, Eppa 6 37 Aparicio, Luis 5 34 Brown, Kevin 4 31 McGriff, Fred 3 28 Palmiero, R 4 28 Puckett, Kirby 5 26 Beckley , Jake 4 25 Shocker, Urban 4 24 Mullane , Tony 3 20 Berger , Wally 3 19 Pierce, Billy 5 17 Duffy , Hugh 3 15 Dandridge, Ray 4 12 Munson, Thurman 2 12 Sutter, Bruce 3 11 Nettles, Graig 3 10 Randolph, W 2 10 Grimes , B 2 9 Saberhagen, B 1 9 Evans, Darrell 2 8 Leach , Tommy 1 8 Lundy , Dick 1 8 Quisenberry, D 2 7 Sewell , Joe 1 7 Bonds, Bobby 1 6 Fingers, Rollie 1 6 Gomez, Lefty 1 6 Smith, Chino 3 6 Cone, David 1 5 Howard, Frank 1 5 Cepeda, Orlando 1 4 Murphy, Dale 1 4 Newcombe, Don 1 4 Perez, Tony 2 4 Jones, Charley 1 3 Evers, Johnny 1 2 Rice, Sam 1 2 Pike, Lip 1 1
Code:Contributor….. votes pts LaRussa, Tony 8 28 Neft, David 5 22 Gillick, Pat 7 20 Mizuhara, S 5 11 Schuerhotlz, J 5 11 Smith, Red 3 7 Harvey, Doug 3 6 Martin, Billy 3 6 Pompez, Alex 2 6 Caray, Harry 1 5 Jobe, Frank 1 5 Harris , Bucky 1 4 McCarthy, Tommy 1 4 O'Doul, Lefty 1 4 Pesky, Johnny 1 4 Harwell, Ernie 1 3 Johnson, Davey 1 3 Uecker, Bob 1 1
Last edited by jalbright; 11-05-2011 at 11:52 AM.
Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
Bookmarks