1923 Polo Grounds 3D

[JOVE23]

As far as the rivets, I don't have any photographic evidence on the rivets in my collection. Maybe someone else has had better luck.

EDIT: In this post there is a picture of what would be the opposite side of the girders. I don't see any rivets.

Additionally, here is that same area. You be the judge on rivet-ness:

[JOVE23]

This demolition shot shows some of the outfield girder assemblies and support columns along the 1st base side and in center field.

[NYFan1stYankFan2nd]

Knew it! Scary ehh, when you know who builds what ballpark just by the framing arrangement?

[bkhockey3]

Was able to rivet the main column.

[bkhockey3]

Will wait till tomorrow and if noone can definitively resolve the rivet question, then I'lll just put them on one side.

[bkhockey3]

We're at page 3 already----I better start downloading key images before thread gets bigger.

[JOVE23]

It stinks that Yankee Stadium has a million billion reference photos we can work from while there's a relative dearth for the PG.

[bkhockey3]

JOVE23-----There's even way less of Fenway Park's first years! Well along on riveting one side of girders.

[SultanOfWhat]

There are actually plenty of photos of the Polo Grounds from 1911-1923. Unfortunately, though, there seem to be few of the 1911 construction process.

bk, more large images incoming via e-mail. Probably best to keep a separate folder for the 4 large images I sent a few days ago, and add these to those. It's convenient to have the big images together, as that makes a zoom in to see detail or a crop easy to get. I will probably wind up sending 25-30 large jpgs over the next week or two.


Here's an excellent image (probably from 1911-13) that shows people entering the ballpark down a ramp. We can even read a few of the signs:


[2000 X 1155]




Thought it would be useful to know what the Polo Grounds looked right right before the fire, and after the fire.

Here are two images taken in 1910, the year before the fire. Note the the terminus of the LF and RF grandstands:


[1915 X 989]




Here is a before/after comparison showing the grandstand ends and the bleachers. We can see that the only portion of the stands in fair territory that burned was the section in RF with the second level above it. Not sure if the lower level in fair territory in RF that burned was grandstand or bleachers, but I'll look into it.

[1546 X 1073]




Lastly, here is an image from OD 1918 that suggests where the exterior wall was. I won't focus on that now, as we are trying to get the steelwork set up, but just wanted to share this pic:

[J.E.Fullerton]

I'm not sure I understand what the question is about the rivets. Is it whether the rivets would appear on both sides of the same girder, or on all four sides? Anyway, here's some good rivet detail:



From the 120 page long PG thread, here's a seating diagram of the lower deck that was actually printed on a ticket stub, and a modified version of same removing the non-baseball seating:



This is basically the same as the black field diagram that Chip posted. However the two "Upper Stand" diagrams that Jove23 posted truly are of the upper deck. We can tell this because the 1911 horshoe extending into left and right fields is the same thickness, as the upper deck would be. However the lower deck would have gotten far narrower, both on the field side and on the railroad yard side in left field. Likewise, even right field would have become narrower as the sweep of the stands got pinched by the property line.

Here are some interesting views from both the inside and out of the RF stands, showing the gradual rise of the ramp to the upper deck runway:





The last view also shows that there was at one time only one broad concrete ramp descending from the Speedway. However, the second ramp, which forked off toward the 3rd base side was in place by 1922.

Returning to the issue of seats, here's a good view that is supposedly from the PG, showing Heywood-Wakefield straightbacks (more familiar from Comiskey Park, sporting Prairie School end figurals):



Sultan's third picture from post #29 confirms that the PG in that era did have straightback seats:



I've read that the original 1911 seats sported end figurals with the famous interlocking "NY" logo, as their riser mounted, curved back replacements from the late 1930s did, but I have yet to see any direct evidence for this. I think Stewart Thornley was the one who claimed this in Land of the Giants, and cited a contemporary magazine report in his footnotes, but I was never able to track down the original article.

[bkhockey3]

Will get to other things this weekend, but wanted to really nail the girders, and I thought I did until I saw JE's post showing a closeup of the girder structure-----my model and of YS has L Beams for the criss crosses and T Beams everywhere else. OMG if this is wrong and YS is wrong too. Also created a secondary assembly for those that aren't connected to a main column.

[bkhockey3]

Forget OMG---if girders are wrong then FU<K ME!

[bkhockey3]

For the LF and RF straightaways, would this the configuration----with 2 large columns?

[J.E.Fullerton]

BK,
I'd say that your elevation immediately above with two large girders is almost correct for the LF straightaway, but not for the RF one. For LF, the general configuration seems right to me, but I don't think it would have had the huge column in the back. Since they wouldn't be concerned about obstructing the view backward to the outside as they would about obstructing the view forward onto the field, they had 3 columns at the back for everyone in front obstructing the view. And by having more columns in the back they could use smaller, thinner ones and still have the same strength per section. For instance, on the drawing they list the lower concrete part of the front column as being 22" square, while the rear wall column is only 16" square.

For in RF, there was a roof over the ramps and lower deck , but the whole area past the back of the upper deck was much narrower than it would have been for the corresponding homeplate horseshoe area, so that RF roof would have been much steeper than home plate lower deck roof:


As for the crisscross girders and the horizontal joists, I believe those are 2 L beams back to back. That's what it looks like in the photo and indeed the elevation drawing specifies dimensions for the former like 2 Ls 3 1/2"x 2 1/2"x 1/4" and 2 Ls 3"x 3"x 5/16" for the latter.

Now I have no idea if this also applies to Yankee Stadium, but it shouldn't be a problem for the Polo Grounds to mirror those Ls and put them back to back should it? Either way, I doubt almost anyone would notice such a minor detail when seeing the finished models.

Also, here's the seating diagram that chip posted only with the colours reversed:



Sultan mentioned the rarity of 1911 construction photos; this oldie from Mario Mendoza...HOF Lock is one. An interesting view of the bluff terrain, and starting work on the lower deck with some reinforcement rods in place for some concrete columns .

[J.E.Fullerton]

BK,
I have to correct my last post. I said that your elevation of the straightaway section of the 1911 work was accurate for LF (with a thinner column in the exterior facade), which still stands. The outside view of that side looked like this:



However I didn't think it was accurate for the RF straightaway because of the steep roof over the ramps. But now I notice that that roof was not there before 1912 (apparently the last year the eagle statues graced the roof, they don't appear in 1913 photos):



In fact, we can even see the seam between the original roof and the later addition over the ramps in RF:




In this last one, there's a semi-detached structure off the back of section 24. With the help of this interior view (with excellent girder detail visible) we can identify it as a restroom building:



So, to sum up, the basic framework for the straightaway sections would be identical on both sides for the first few years, but then later it would have had the steeper roof added on over the ramps on the RF side. Meaning, you can use the same template for both, just RF needing some more framing added to it.

[chip]

Bk,

I have started to draw up the plans in AutoCAD and have noticed some
discrepancies in the print that I posted before. The bleachers in front of the
tunnels is missing and the entire stadium is drawn to short. I also think the
RF stands are shifted out I don’t think there was that notch at the end of the
box seats.

I’m at home now and I don’t have access to my cad drawing at work but
I’ve stretched out the blue print to show you what I’m talking about.

[SultanOfWhat]

I'll post some pics to try to help with the structure in a bit, but if bk wants an occasional break from that, I'll also post some pics that deal with other aspects.

Judging from this pic (1923 WS at PG, game 4)...




...this image of Ruth sitting in the stands under suspension in early 1922 seems to also have been taken in the Polo Grounds. Please advise if you agree/disagree. I'll keep looking into it.

[image is 1600 X 1027]




It's good to see things coming to light such as that 1911 construction photo, and the pic of the aftermath of the fire (which someone won on ebay for $21 shipped in July of this year). Here's another find: Peter A. Hoffman in the Polo Grounds circa 1945 examining what seems to be the very ticket/diagram design (the football seating version) posted by chip above in this thread:




A few more details:

This pic from 1911 shows some cross-bracing scaffolding at the city seals frieze on the roof. Too bad it's so blurry:




This crop from a 1911-13 image shows some readable signs:




I think we can safely rule out the city seals frieze from the 1923 Polo Grounds. That frieze is clearly visible in pics of the 1921 WS...




...but it has already been removed in this 1922 image:

[Lpeters199]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1950s-Horace...#ht_2490wt_702

[SultanOfWhat]

Here are some images to add to the discussion. A few are larger, cropped or lightened versions of pics above.




This quaint picket fence actually ran all the way around the back of the bleachers (will post other pics some other time showing other areas). Also, nice view of grandstand end detail:




Note exterior wall blocking out light to the left of the man's hip:




1916:




This one lightened to show 'MEN' sign:




Will work on dating this one from the ads. Probably circa 1920:




A BBF member with 'Anaheim' in his username posted this a while back. A good view of the April 26, 1923 ballpark in one view:

[about 1900 px]



Lots of ads we recognize from 1923, so probably within a few years of the 1923 renovations:




The NYPL image, quite large. NYPL caption a bit unsure as to date:




1937:

[JOVE23]

This picture shows rivets on both sides of the column girder. Is that what you're looking for?

Also, this may not be useful for 1923 but it does show how the train tracks abruptly stop right at the PG in 1950:



Lots of great pictures here: http://www.trainsarefun.com/lirr/odds_ends.htm

1954 aerial view of PG: http://www.historicaerials.com/aeria...3489&year=1954

[chip]

With Columns......

[SultanOfWhat]

Is that year known for that image with the ChiSox in the Polo Grounds? [EDIT: It's probably the 1917 World Series. It's less likely that the White Sox team would take such a photo before a regular season game vs. the Yankees in the Polo Grounds.] The section numbers are different than those seen in the diagram from the 1940s-50s. First, the old photo (looks to be from decades earlier than the diagram), with section numbers on the columns:




Those sections 10-12 seem to be about where sections 26-28 are in the diagram below. Another issue is whether the section numbers for the upper deck are the same as those for the lower deck. They probably were.




Not sure what the other numbers in the interior of the diagram curve mean (1-9, 1-10, 1-13, etc.). Would the number of rows have varied in that fashion?




Photo of some hijinks from 1917:




Some steelwork, and what looks to be a squarish section sign in the upper right:




Columns from a 1912 WS image:






Railings around passage (1912 again):




Another look at the lions:

[SultanOfWhat]

Rivets galore! Full image e-mailed to bk:




LOC link is below. With these huge TIFF files, you can right-click the TIFF link and 'save link as', then select the downloaded image in Picasa and 'save a copy'. You'll end up with a .jpg that is just as clear as the TIFF, but about 70-90% smaller as far as file size.

http://www.loc.gov/pictures/item/ggb2005014487/


It looks like there is a piece of twisted steel at the bottom in the pic above. I thought there were twisted steel elements in other pics, but this is a much closer view.


Looks like a drain pipe in the middle of the column:

[JOVE23]

Maybe the numbers inside the curve are how many seats across each section of box seating had?

[RfkFedEx]

Were those lion faces on the front wall of the upper deck?