Okay---issues already------the first image shows the upper deck stands in blue, and the white lines are traced from the image reference---except for cutting rows on the sides, everything is accurate, including the curvature from 3rd to 1st. The second image shows two white lines whichare the exact profiles of the UD and LD stands traced from the blueprints, with both decks in exact position relative to eachother. Green arrow----LD, red arrow---UD. Going on the assumption that the metalwork blueprint I'm following are the assemblies that we find in the curved part of the ballpark, I'm not sure how to jive this with the reference image behind the wireframe. Yikes----HELP!
Maybe this better shows how the stands in position don't seem to match the photo reference.
It looks to me like the problem is that the horshoe part of the upper deck just starts too far back toward Coogan's Bluff, relative to the lower deck. The curvature of the two decks might match if the horshoe of UD was shifted toward the river; the lowest tier of the UD should be directly behind the aisle separating the box seats from the grandstand seats in LD and directly above the two entrance wells.
I realise that you arrived at that configuration by overlaying the different seating diagrams, and that it does fit the new work in center, but either one or both of those diagrams must be skewed in length somewhat. I'd suggest going off the lot dimensions given in the article as a starting point: the property line was 740' east to west and 519'8" north to south. The center point of the curvature was 471' from the 8th ave property line.
"The engineers for the stadium are the Osborn Engineering Company of Cleveland, Ohio. The entire structural work is being erected from their plans and supervised by them, the general contracters being the Snare and Triest Company of New York City. Mr. Irving L. Daniels, of Cleveland, is the resident engineer. Mr. Henry B.Herts, architect, of New york City, has been retained to develop the architectural features of the stadium. The steelwork is being executed by the American Bridge Company. Hy-Rib and expanded metal are being used throughout for panel work."
I will post some images that might help later today. But I just wanted to post this amazing pic that just came to light. I assumed that someone had to have taken a photo of the Polo Grounds right after the fire in 1911, and here is such an image:
[image size 1915 X 781]
So now at least we can see what was left before the 1911 re-build started.
Sultan------Now that there's reference, maybe I should build the 1911 post-fire version! Great shot! Girder assembly done except for rivets----waiting to know if rivets would appear on both side!
JE-----so I should use the lower deck image as the guide and fit the upper deck according to the giders?
Additionally, I think the photo that is labeled "upper stand" is actually the first deck.
EDIT: I just saw your render of the girders. Good job! I think the long girder/column is encased in concrete inside the concourse. Reference:
Last edited by JOVE23; 11-17-2011 at 01:13 PM.
Thought I posted this a while ago, but post not showing up---started the monument.
JOVE23---didn't notice image said upper stand---assumed it was the lower deck!
As far as the rivets, I don't have any photographic evidence on the rivets in my collection. Maybe someone else has had better luck.
EDIT: In this post there is a picture of what would be the opposite side of the girders. I don't see any rivets.
Additionally, here is that same area. You be the judge on rivet-ness:
Last edited by JOVE23; 11-17-2011 at 01:40 PM.
This demolition shot shows some of the outfield girder assemblies and support columns along the 1st base side and in center field.
Knew it! Scary ehh, when you know who builds what ballpark just by the framing arrangement?
RYS to NYS: "Obi-Lonn never told you what happened to your father."
NYS: "He told me enough. He told me you killed him - in the 1970s!!"
RYS: "No, I am your father..."
NYS: "No, it's not true, that's impossible!!!!"
RYS: "Look beyond my respirator pods and my upper crown; you know it to be true!
Was able to rivet the main column.
Will wait till tomorrow and if noone can definitively resolve the rivet question, then I'lll just put them on one side.
We're at page 3 already----I better start downloading key images before thread gets bigger.
It stinks that Yankee Stadium has a million billion reference photos we can work from while there's a relative dearth for the PG.
JOVE23-----There's even way less of Fenway Park's first years! Well along on riveting one side of girders.
There are actually plenty of photos of the Polo Grounds from 1911-1923. Unfortunately, though, there seem to be few of the 1911 construction process.
bk, more large images incoming via e-mail. Probably best to keep a separate folder for the 4 large images I sent a few days ago, and add these to those. It's convenient to have the big images together, as that makes a zoom in to see detail or a crop easy to get. I will probably wind up sending 25-30 large jpgs over the next week or two.
Here's an excellent image (probably from 1911-13) that shows people entering the ballpark down a ramp. We can even read a few of the signs:
[2000 X 1155]
Thought it would be useful to know what the Polo Grounds looked right right before the fire, and after the fire.
Here are two images taken in 1910, the year before the fire. Note the the terminus of the LF and RF grandstands:
[1915 X 989]
Here is a before/after comparison showing the grandstand ends and the bleachers. We can see that the only portion of the stands in fair territory that burned was the section in RF with the second level above it. Not sure if the lower level in fair territory in RF that burned was grandstand or bleachers, but I'll look into it.
[1546 X 1073]
Lastly, here is an image from OD 1918 that suggests where the exterior wall was. I won't focus on that now, as we are trying to get the steelwork set up, but just wanted to share this pic:
Last edited by SultanOfWhat; 11-17-2011 at 08:24 PM.
I'm not sure I understand what the question is about the rivets. Is it whether the rivets would appear on both sides of the same girder, or on all four sides? Anyway, here's some good rivet detail:
From the 120 page long PG thread, here's a seating diagram of the lower deck that was actually printed on a ticket stub, and a modified version of same removing the non-baseball seating:
This is basically the same as the black field diagram that Chip posted. However the two "Upper Stand" diagrams that Jove23 posted truly are of the upper deck. We can tell this because the 1911 horshoe extending into left and right fields is the same thickness, as the upper deck would be. However the lower deck would have gotten far narrower, both on the field side and on the railroad yard side in left field. Likewise, even right field would have become narrower as the sweep of the stands got pinched by the property line.
Here are some interesting views from both the inside and out of the RF stands, showing the gradual rise of the ramp to the upper deck runway:
The last view also shows that there was at one time only one broad concrete ramp descending from the Speedway. However, the second ramp, which forked off toward the 3rd base side was in place by 1922.
Returning to the issue of seats, here's a good view that is supposedly from the PG, showing Heywood-Wakefield straightbacks (more familiar from Comiskey Park, sporting Prairie School end figurals):
Sultan's third picture from post #29 confirms that the PG in that era did have straightback seats:
I've read that the original 1911 seats sported end figurals with the famous interlocking "NY" logo, as their riser mounted, curved back replacements from the late 1930s did, but I have yet to see any direct evidence for this. I think Stewart Thornley was the one who claimed this in Land of the Giants, and cited a contemporary magazine report in his footnotes, but I was never able to track down the original article.