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Thread: 1923 Polo Grounds 3D

  1. #126
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    Big pic of LF wall:




    RF wall 1923:




    Chesterfield ad like the one in YS just to the left of the scoreboard:




    Another pic of the aftermath of the 1911 fire:

    Last edited by SultanOfWhat; 11-23-2011 at 05:09 PM.

  2. #127
    Sultan-----once walls and stands are correct, will do so more work to the billboards.
    Chip emailed me his CAD drawings and was able to import them into my program, so the only way I can be off is if I go into retard mode. After scaling Chip's drawing, I found that overall my model was too short, my CF clubhouse structures were too wide, the bleacher stands to wide and not deep enough.
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  3. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by bkhockey3 View Post
    Sultan-----once walls and stands are correct, will do so more work to the billboards.
    Chip emailed me his CAD drawings and was able to import them into my program, so the only way I can be off is if I go into retard mode. After scaling Chip's drawing, I found that overall my model was too short, my CF clubhouse structures were too wide, the bleacher stands to wide and not deep enough.

    What is the specific model date/year of chip's CAD drawings? Things might have been different here and there between the CAD file and the Polo Grounds as it was in April 1923 (particularly in the CF bleachers, as the pics I posted above indicate changes between 1923 and 1924). This of course leaves aside the huge difference in the status of the upper decks, which were undergoing their major extension.


    BTW, does anyone own the Polo Grounds book Land of the Giants? Pages 92-3 have info on the 1923 alterations.

    Much of the book is viewable in Google books:

    http://books.google.com/books?id=_4h...erhang&f=false
    Last edited by SultanOfWhat; 11-23-2011 at 07:56 PM.

  4. #129
    Sultan-----If there were changes to the bleachers I can adjust later--------Chip's drawing gives me accurate data for stands, columns and exits. I think the RF wall has to be shoter than the LF one. Because the LF straightaway stands are higher at the point the wall hits----I made the walls the same height and as you can see, the RF wall would be so high that people in the first rows wouldn't be able to see the field-----it makes sense that the LF wall decreases in height going around to CF cause the walls in front of the bleachers would be the same height (green arrows).
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  5. #130
    Got all the girders in except for the ones between the column ones-------my guess is that there are 2 in between each assembly. Field diamond matches Chip's drawing---not sure how dirt surrounds field grass.
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  6. #131
    I think 2 between each column is correct. Evidence:

    pgcolumns.png

  7. #132
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    Here is Eddie Grant, the man memorialized by the CF monument. This photo was taken in the Polo Grounds in 1913, while Grant was still with the Cincinnati Reds. He was traded to the Giants later that year:




    In case you're wondering what color that darkish uniform was, here is how the BBHOF has the 1913 Reds road uniform:




    A look at the CF bleacher entrance, and its simple railings. Note the railings (handrails) running down into the tunnel:

    1936 WS



    These zooms of the CF bleacher entrances are blurry, but we can see that railings looking like the 1936 version were in place:






    Here's a look at railings (looking quite similar) seen in the grandstand in 1913:




    Looks like there are more "baby-savers" (mesh in the bottom section of the 1913 grandstand railings):




    Here are some playing field dimensions. This is just a starting point, as we should verify these measurements. They are from baseballstatistics.com:

    Left field: 279.67 (1923)
    Left field, second deck: 250 ft.
    Left center, left of bullpen: 447 ft
    Left center, right of bullpen: 455 ft


    Front of clubhouse steps: 460 ft
    Center field: 483 (1923)

    Right center, left of bullpen: 449
    Right center, right of bullpen: 440

    Right field: 257.67 (1923)
    Right field, second deck photographers' perch (probably not there in 1923): 249 ft.


    For the dimensions above that mention bullpens, we will probably have to try to figure out where the bullpen structures visible in later photos correspond to the walls in 1923.

    Here are the "bullpens" in 1923.

    In LF, we can just see the bench, and a possible mound in front of the BVD ad:




    In RF, we are lucky to actually have a pitcher warming up, standing on a visible mound:

    Last edited by SultanOfWhat; 11-23-2011 at 11:20 PM.

  8. #133
    Think I got the bleaccher exits right. New bleachers according to Chip's drawing. Looks like LF wall definitely slopes down and RF doesn't.
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  9. #134
    As a side note to Eddie Grant, if anyone is interested I wrote a story about him and illustrated a card of him on my website. I repost it on Veterans Day each year.
    http://infinitecardset.blogspot.com/.../Eddie%20Grant
    See My Baseball Card Project: www.infinitecardset.blogspot.com

    See My Vintage Sports Posters: www.cieradkowskidesign.blogspot.com

  10. #135
    Moving along!!!!!!!!!
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  11. #136
    That's looking like a fine forest of steel there, BK! I'm sure there will be some tricky bits when it comes to the junction between the curved horseshoe and the straightaways, but so far it's looking great.

    I do have a larger copy of the Sanborn diagram, though the dimesions it lists are all heights, i believe (maybe street widths, too). Unfortunately I'm out of town atm, so i can't post anymore from that for a few days. Those fire maps are nowhere near as good as a real blueprint, but they do have useful info on what the ancillary structures were used for, and should provide decent angles for the ramps from the Speedway.

    I'm willing to bet good money that the PG seats are not the same style as the YS ones. Most of the deadball era seats were Heywood Wakefields, either bent steel (which could take decorative figurals for the aisle seats, as in the custom designs for League park and Braves Field, as well as the generic Prairie School style used at Navin's and Comiskey and even movie theaters) or the cast iron Art Deco style used at Ebbets, Crosley, Forbes, and Wrigley. The Yankee Stadium type of seats came from American Seating, iirc, and were later also used at Fenway and Municipal, though with a grid pattern on the side that YS ones didn't. I just don't think American Seating was doing business with ballparks back in 1911. I made a number of measured drawing of the old seats in my collection, which I can post later....it could be that we might eventually get a good enough view of the PG seats to confirm what style was used there.

  12. #137
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    Polo Grounds seat, from a current eBay listing. Yours for only $4,600. I don't know if this model survived from 1923 or was a later replacement. It looks like that style was in place in the 1950s.



    http://www.ebay.com/itm/Stadium-seat...item43aa3d1cca





    Seat backs and railings from 1960s
    http://www.stadiumpage.com/stadiumgraveyard/polo.html

    Last edited by Chef Bill; 11-24-2011 at 05:38 AM.
    "Chef Bill"
    Boynton Beach, Florida

  13. #138
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    More Polo Grounds seats, found at http://www.collectiblestadiumseats.com/id2.html





    Last edited by Chef Bill; 11-24-2011 at 07:32 AM.
    "Chef Bill"
    Boynton Beach, Florida

  14. #139
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    Very large picture of a Polo Grounds seat, from: http://www.authenticstadiumseats.com/CLASSICPRE.html



    "POLO GROUNDS (NY GIANTS RARE FIGURAL) Home of NY Giants till 1957 & NY Yankees until 1922
    This is a RARE REFINISHED Polo Grounds figural. The figurals were found in the St Augustine ,FL
    Amphitheater in 1988. They were sent their after the demolition of Polo Grounds. The metal sides are all
    original. The wood however rotted off so it was replaced by vintage 1940’s stadium seat wood and repainted to
    give you a museum quality seat."
    Last edited by Chef Bill; 11-24-2011 at 05:32 AM.
    "Chef Bill"
    Boynton Beach, Florida

  15. #140
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    More Polo Grounds seats, from http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/A...ction_ID=35148




    Website description:
    Casual historians of the National Pastime well recount that the Polo Grounds was razed in 1964. However, the history of the glorious shrine is actually a complex account that begins in the formative years of the Senior Circuit. Through an evolution of sites and mishaps, the facility, as we know it, was actually christened in 1911 (cited by modern commentators as "Polo Grounds IV"), and permanent seating was installed the following season. A decade later, there was a meaningful addition to the capacity and, as such, we believe that these conjoined seats date to either 1912 or 1922. As a pair, it's a cast iron tandem, and with mused reminiscences, we note that it features a single armrest for adjacent fans to squabble over. As is evidenced in our photo for these seats, they were designed for a horizontal-surface mounting (thus preempting the nuisance of adaptation for display). But of most profound appeal is that the pair was salvaged from the end of a row, thus providing for the glorious iron figural of the renowned interlocking "NY" logo, long the copyright identity of the Giants.

    Especially impressive here, however, is the superb state of preservation in these seats. We first report that a welding repair was performed on one of the legs (essentially setting an earlier sustained fracture). This repair, very professional and now quite inconspicuous, necessitated no new material, but merely to solidify the original. Otherwise, there's no damage or deterioration to any of the metallic components - particularly noting that there's no rusting at the base of any of the vulnerable six anchoring feet. Further, the mechanism of folding the seats has retained its full integrity - still functioning as originally assembled. In turn, all the wooden slats are original (individually, five for the seats and three for the backrests). About the only qualification (which really lends a welcomed charm) is a small area of compromise on one of the backrest slats. Furthermore, all the bolts securing the slats to the frame remain firmly and properly immobilized. And finally, we report that a little harmless exploring has divulged innumerable coats of paint that remain from the many years of annual Polo Grounds grooming. In that query, it was determined that the original colors were blue-tinted gray on the slats, burnt orange on the iron surfaces, and black on the "NY" logo. As such, the paint on these seats has recently been restored to their first colors, to include the stenciled numbers ... however, the many layers of paint beneath remain unviolated - they were not stripped, thus preserving the full heritage of these seats.

    Epic display pieces of this magnitude are fortunate survivors. Once nearly committed to the trash heap (like so many of their kind), principal fixtures such as these (from the Temple of Coogan's Bluff, no less) are among the genuine treasures of the game's legacy.

    I think one of the big issues for the scholars in the group to resolve is the color of the seats in 1923.

    The description above suggests that they were originally burnt orange and black on the metalwork with blue-grey wooden slats. I think it might be possible that the premium box seats were painted with that motif, while less expensive seats in the lower and upper stand were all green. Seats could have been repainted any number of times over the years. That could explain why examples of both colors survive today.

    Since there probably aren't any color photos readily available from the 1920s, I'll try to find some period written reports that describe the stadium's colors in 1923.
    Last edited by Chef Bill; 11-24-2011 at 08:19 AM.
    "Chef Bill"
    Boynton Beach, Florida

  16. #141
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    Last edited by Chef Bill; 11-24-2011 at 05:40 AM.
    "Chef Bill"
    Boynton Beach, Florida

  17. #142
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    From: http://www.icollector.com/Polo-Groun...-Side_i5331897




    I've seen this picture many times before of Blanche McGraw, widow of Giants manager John McGraw, at the Polo Grounds after the final game of 1957. Found at: http://www.sheastadiumseats.com/

    From: http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/.../2005/766.html

    The ultimate original Polo Grounds stadium seat. This is the rare, and to collectors by far the most desirable, double-figural Polo Grounds style, featuring the Giants' intricate interlocking "NY" design on both sides of the seat. The "NY" defines this seat at a glance as a Polo Grounds seat. To have the "NY" on both sides is the ideal. In addition, this is a freestanding model, which again is the most desirable style, needing no modifications for use or display. In addition to these rare qualities, this is a completely original, unrestored seat, with all original wood and original weathered green paint. Almost all of the Polo Grounds seats in collectors hands are rewooded and completely restored. This is an ideal original model with all of the elements which define this seat as the ultimate of its type. This Polo Grounds seat also comes with a very significant additional provenance, as this very Polo Grounds seat was chosen for exhibit at the museum show of baseball relics and art at the American Folk Art Museum in New York in 2003. The Polo Grounds will always be revered as one of baseball's grandest old ballparks. The stadium was sacred as the home of the Giants from 1891 to 1957. The New York Mets brought baseball back to the Polo Grounds in 1962 and 1963, but it was torn down in 1964 to make room for housing projects, leaving only memories and a few seats as reminders of one of baseball's longest lasting old-time ballparks. This rare double figural freestanding model features "DD 1" stenciled on the backing. There is a small crack in the middle slat and some rusting to the metal components. Well worn as expected from age, use, and the elements, but otherwise Very Good to Excellent condition. Reserve $2,000. Estimate $4,000/$6,000. SOLD FOR $6,380.00
    "Chef Bill"
    Boynton Beach, Florida

  18. #143
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    From: [URL="http://www.digitalballparks.com[/URL]





    "Chef Bill"
    Boynton Beach, Florida

  19. #144
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    It looks like the right field wall did slope slightly after looking at this first photo from Chef Bill.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chef Bill View Post
    From: [URL="http://www.digitalballparks.com[/URL]






  20. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by stlfan View Post
    It looks like the right field wall did slope slightly after looking at this first photo from Chef Bill.
    It looks like the seats in that section slope too.

  21. #146
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    Hey Sultan,

    Here is the way I developed my cad drawing. First I combed the Polo Grounds thread for any and all photos that would help in determining the dimensions. I also used the blue print or seating chart that I posted and the upper deck blue print that someone posted.
    With all of these files I determined that drawing up the final version or post renovation plans would be the way to go. I think that after we get all of the dimensions correct we can actually deconstruct the model to previous versions. I’m mostly doing this because there seems to be far more photos of the post renovation stadium.

    Anyway one thing that I have discovered is that the Giants lied or misrepresented the dimensions. I tried to lay out the outfield using the always represented dimensions of 447’ to the left of the bullpen in RF and 455’ to the right of the bullpen. I also set the front of the clubhouse 483’ away from the plate. I read someplace on line that the front of the bleachers in front of the clubhouse notch was 425’ when the dimension to the clubhouse was 475’. Well I set up the drawing using these dimension and trust me it just didn’t work, the outfield was way to long. So I went searching for more info and found these photos…

    First here is the photo from 1938 with the 447’ and 455’ dimensions.


    and a photo from 1962….


    Notice the dimensions of the 1962 photo it is 422’ to the left of bullpen.
    Also notice that the foul pole did NOT move therefore the infield never moved.
    Something tells me the Mets or MLB checked the dimensions.

    So I then set up my drawing with these dimensions and BINGO it works!

  22. #147
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    chip, that actually makes sense, as I was always a bit skeptical of those distances near the bullpens. They seemed to get too deep too soon from the foul line. Here's are two images that made me a bit suspicious. Camera angles can be deceptive, and we know that the wall ran away from the plate at the same angle as a line from home to second base, but these numbers still seemed a bit odd:







    We should try to find some direct overheads to do some measuring.


    Here are the step-downs in the walls.

    The LF wall seems to have remained the same, with 8 step-downs:




    The RF wall seems to have one step-down, at least (thanks to Chef Bill for pointing this out in the 1957 pic):

    Last edited by SultanOfWhat; 11-24-2011 at 11:49 AM.

  23. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by SultanOfWhat View Post
    chip, that actually makes sense, as I was always a bit skeptical of those distances near the bullpens. They seemed to get too deep too soon from the foul line. Here's are two images that made me a bit suspicious. Camera angles can be deceptive, and we know that the wall ran away from the plate at the same angle as a line from home to second base, but these numbers still seemed a bit odd
    Now that we have a reasonably accurate digital model set up, we can get proper measurements.

    Additionally, you can use this link to measure for yourself.

  24. #149


    The last game of the Giants at the PG. Note the green seats (if you ever make a 1950s version)



    You can see the subway station here a bit. I don't think that layout would have changed much since 1923.
    Last edited by JOVE23; 11-24-2011 at 03:55 PM.

  25. #150
    Love the videos and all those PG seats. Took a long time,but angled the LF wall and saw the RF angle as a change in direction, not a change in height.
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