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Thread: Toe Touch and Heel Plant

  1. #2621
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    Quote Originally Posted by mudvnine View Post
    Yes to the bold (only) it's a drill to feel a specific movement . . . the "how" is for each individual instructor to work out within his own teaching methods/modalities.
    Would you agree that someone presetting by forward-by-coiling to toe-touch WHILE loading the hands rearward, and then performing the drill as shown above, would be close to what you are describing?

  2. #2622
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    Quote Originally Posted by FiveFrameSwing View Post
    Would you agree that someone forward-by-coiling to toe-touch WHILE loading the hands rearward, and then performing the drill as shown above, would be close to what you are describing?
    I think that that's getting a little too far along in the process . . .

    How hard would it be just to start the hands further back and off of the rear shoulder, creating "spacial separation", and not allowing them to move forward as the rear hip starts forward while turning the barrel with them back there?

    Think of it as if it was a "take" drill . . . would you want the hands in that location on a "take" as is basically what is happening in the three "stop" movements before the actual swing?
    In memory of "Catchingcoach" - Dave Weaver: February 28, 1955 - June 17, 2011

  3. #2623
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    Thank you Mud.

    What I am looking to include is a pre-set that allows one to include the shrinkage, or reduction in distance, seen between the "rear shoulder to rear hip".

    Last edited by FiveFrameSwing; 12-24-2011 at 12:23 PM.

  4. #2624
    [QUOTE=FiveFrameSwing;1964624]Hopefully this can be discussed independent of personal attacks towards the presenter and/or his followers .....

    Deleted, References banned member.

    So, the corner is maintaining separation? The fusing he refers to is connection?
    Last edited by Cannonball; 12-24-2011 at 01:28 PM. Reason: Deleted references banned member

  5. #2625
    [QUOTE=FiveFrameSwing;1964624]Hopefully this can be discussed independent of personal attacks towards the presenter and/or his followers .....

    Deleted References banned member

    Five........2 things about this clip.........

    1.) At 3:50 in this clip he demonstrates this action...........



    Which is NOT EVEN CLOSE this action.......One sends the barrel "down under"........The other sends the barrel TOWARD/SEEKING the C-Spine.......The "draw-down" as I call it.....Where the barrel is actually getting closer to/connecting to the C-Spine (spine engine) vs. moving away from it.......



    This AP clip I posted shows exactly what I'm talking about..........Notice how AP's upper C-Spine can still see the barrel?...........This creates a deep corner.......



    This is just a disaster.......And moves the barrel down/away from the C-Spine........



    2.) Also at 3:50.......Did you catch that he called the lower body's action his "Foot Engine"???
    Last edited by Cannonball; 12-24-2011 at 01:29 PM. Reason: Deleted References Banned member

  6. #2626
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    BM ... I have a follow-up ... need to create a GIF first to help describe an action.

    I like what your reference to a C-spine. That is big IMO! If that is what you mean by "draw down", then I agree. That's the 'spine engine'.

  7. #2627
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    Quote Originally Posted by justthefacts View Post
    This connection takes place immediately upon the initiation of the actual intent to swing.
    Quote Originally Posted by FiveFrameSwing View Post
    This here is right on the money.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cannonball View Post
    FFS, which is why I've continually said that connection is a dynamic event.
    Quote Originally Posted by FiveFrameSwing View Post
    Yes ... and connection is not something one establishes early either ... one can pre-set so as to assist in automating connection, but one does not establish connection prior to swing initiation.
    Can someone please define "actual intent to swing"?

    FFS, maybe you since you agreed with it?

    Or maybe you can help me by defining swing initiation?

    Thanks

  8. #2628
    Quote Originally Posted by TDS View Post
    BM, I respectfully disagree with your assessment of when connection occurs with the upper-body running start. Do You believe there to be a hand pivot point? Your student does a better job of maintaining this then CC does with this swing. IMO this pivot point is controlled by the torso or the spine engine. So IMO connection between the spine engine and the hand pivot point is happening long before the last 3 frames of the swing.


    You are free to disagree Tom..........But realize that her BARREL is being drawn down toward her C-Spine during the start of torso rotation.........It's NOT being sent away from it...........The way I view "connection to rotation" or "connected rotation" is that rotation of the torso/shoulders act with EQUAL force/DISTANCE on the direction of the barrel.......If that makes sense to you........

    This is NOT the case in this sequence.........



    Nyman likes this swing.....As well he should.....Calls it a "PCRW" swing........And then says my statement that causing the delay of connected rotation to create this swing is "convoluted".........Which tells me he either doesn't get it....Or is in the midst of revision and purposely "convoluting" so he can shift what I understand is his theory.......

    Posture/Connection/Rotation is NOT the sequence we used to develop this swing.......It's more like Posture/ROTATION/Connection.......Although there's more to it then that........

    Maybe Nyman is Revising his Acronym???.......

  9. #2629
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoardMember View Post
    Nyman likes this swing.....As well he should.....Calls it a "PCRW" swing........And then says my statement that causing the delay of connected rotation to create this swing is "convoluted".........Which tells me he either doesn't get it....Or is in the midst of revision and purposely "convoluting" so he can shift what I understand is his theory.......

    Posture/Connection/Rotation is NOT the sequence we used to develop this swing.......It's more like Posture/ROTATION/Connection.......Although there's more to it then that........

    Maybe Nyman is Revising his Acronym???.......
    Be careful where you go there BM . . . you may be stepping right into the middle of a minefield there . . .
    Quote Originally Posted by mudvnine View Post
    If we go back to the original question "can anyone define/illustrate/prove a "short swing" in relation to the MLB swing pattern?" and remember our "shortest distance" definition, then instead of incorrectly applying "PCR(W)" (Posture, connection, rotation, ("whip" was added later in the game, for those new here) . . . we see that the "elite" (short swing) is better arranged/defined as "PR(W)C".
    I'm just saying . . .
    In memory of "Catchingcoach" - Dave Weaver: February 28, 1955 - June 17, 2011

  10. #2630
    Quote Originally Posted by mudvnine View Post
    Be careful where you go there BM . . . you may be stepping right into the middle of a minefield there . . .

    I'm just saying . . .
    Wow........Great minds think alike...........

    Guess I should've read that thread eh?.........I think I just popped in and left a sarcastic remark and left.........

  11. #2631
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    Quote Originally Posted by HYP View Post
    Can someone please define "actual intent to swing"?

    FFS, maybe you since you agreed with it?

    Or maybe you can help me by defining swing initiation?

    Thanks
    IMO, his use of "intent to swing" was not that one steps into the batter's box with a mindset to swing ... but more the initiation action from 'launch'.

  12. #2632
    Quote Originally Posted by HYP View Post
    Can someone please define "actual intent to swing"?

    FFS, maybe you since you agreed with it?

    Or maybe you can help me by defining swing initiation?

    Thanks
    It's like a rocket launch sequence...............You begin/initiate the sequence........And intent TO swing makes it too late to abort...........



    Initiate and Intent are not synonomous.......IMO anyway........
    Last edited by BoardMember; 12-24-2011 at 01:22 PM.

  13. #2633
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    BM, that is absolutely not a high level take. He take makes her swing long. I've said this many times.... Elite hitters establish bat speed prior to swing commitment without adding length to their swing. Her hands need to travel forward to create bat speed. I see the barrel path.... It has to happen in movement. Dynamic flattening is a term you have used. You know you aren't there yet. You are smart. Saying otherwise is dishonest. Unless it is true that you really can't see it...

  14. #2634
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tewks View Post
    BM, that is absolutely not a high level take. He take makes her swing long. I've said this many times.... Elite hitters establish bat speed prior to swing commitment without adding length to their swing. Her hands need to travel forward to create bat speed. I see the barrel path.... It has to happen in movement. Dynamic flattening is a term you have used. You know you aren't there yet. You are smart. Saying otherwise is dishonest. Unless it is true that you really can't see it...
    While what she does isn't perfect, it's much better than what CC does.

    CC never flattens, or really even tries to flatten.
    Just Google my name to find me.

  15. #2635
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoardMember View Post


    It my opinion, this demonstration missed the mark … and it unfortunately caused the originator of the demo to move in a non-ideal direction for a while.

    I believe this particular demonstration was meant to describe a perceived parallel combination of rear forearm supination and lead-arm pronation … something that was being advocated as occurring forcefully at swing initiation and deep into the swing sequence. This carried into a teaching of late lead-arm pronation … since it was believed that the lead forearm had to pronate as the rear forearm supinated … something that grossly misaligned with reality IMO. This demo misses the mark on multiple fronts … and my best guess for why this took place is that the originator likely missed the importance of the forearm angles … at least at the time they performed the demo. A correlation was drawn of the demonstrated action occurring with the forearms “parallel”, to an action with the forearms in a more normal “triangle” type orientation. You’ve seen Carter’s kid’s demonstration ... ... ... for whatever reason he was selected as a guinea pig for the late lead-arm barrel-dump pronation experiment from hell ... basically an experiment gone bad.

    You’ve probably seen Elk do the action below a hundred times or so ……



    Elk started doing this after Martin came on board. Elk is pre-establishing the ‘feel’ for an action that he refers to as the ‘twirl’ ... an action that he wishes to feel pretty much at the same time that JBooth describes the throwing action. The ‘twirl’ is similar to the ‘swivel’ in terms of directional rotation … but it differs in terms of ‘when’ and ‘what’. Elk is basically preparing to have the feel of ‘lag’ build-up in his swing.

    Even back in the old days SB wished to keep the ‘feel’ that TM was attempting to describe contained to the wrists & hands … sort of a point of disagreement that was never resolved.

    In any event … I personally like the idea of pre-setting the feel in the top hand/wrist to establish lag later in the swing … much like what we see in Bonds’ rearview swing … and it isn’t quite the same as what we see TM demonstrating here IMO.

  16. #2636
    Nyman likes this swing.....As well he should.....Calls it a "PCRW" swing........And then says my statement that causing the delay of connected rotation to create this swing is "convoluted".........Which tells me he either doesn't get it....Or is in the midst of revision and purposely "convoluting" so he can shift what I understand is his theory.......
    The problem at least from my perspective is the inordinate amount of energy and time that is being spent on something that can be qualified/quantified in a very few words. Those words being "prior to initiation of rotation of the barrel of the bat must be positioned such that it lies within the plane of rotation".

    Someone has mentioned previously about wasted bandwidth and I could not agree more with respect to this tipping of the bat and the inordinate emphasis/perceived value*placed on tipping of the bat for what it appears many some magical move associated with a high level swing. The "magic"*of getting the barrel of the bat positioned such that it lies in the plane of rotation of the shoulders.

    Again it appears that there is little or no ability to comprehend what PCRW is. I previously said that PCRW is simply a specification- blueprint or plan as to what elements are present in a high-level *swing,*

    If the swing is developed by telling the player to stand on a head, chew bubblegum say five Hail Mary's and cross their heart and in so doing develop a swing that meets the PCRW specification, then you BoardMember (or anyone else) have done a great job.

  17. #2637
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    Facts, can you comment about how or why you believe PCR has possibly been misunderstood so widely?
    Last edited by Tewks; 12-24-2011 at 01:52 PM.

  18. #2638
    Thanks for the clarification John. I thought your 3 frames of connection meant the arms/ hands did there own thing until then.

    Quote Originally Posted by BoardMember View Post
    You are free to disagree Tom..........But realize that her BARREL is being drawn down toward her C-Spine during the start of torso rotation.........It's NOT being sent away from it...........The way I view "connection to rotation" or "connected rotation" is that rotation of the torso/shoulders act with EQUAL force/DISTANCE on the direction of the barrel.......If that makes sense to you........

    This is NOT the case in this sequence.........



    Nyman likes this swing.....As well he should.....Calls it a "PCRW" swing........And then says my statement that causing the delay of connected rotation to create this swing is "convoluted".........Which tells me he either doesn't get it....Or is in the midst of revision and purposely "convoluting" so he can shift what I understand is his theory.......

    Posture/Connection/Rotation is NOT the sequence we used to develop this swing.......It's more like Posture/ROTATION/Connection.......Although there's more to it then that........

    Maybe Nyman is Revising his Acronym???.......
    Last edited by TDS; 12-24-2011 at 02:09 PM.

  19. #2639
    Quote Originally Posted by Tewks View Post
    BM, that is absolutely not a high level take. He take makes her swing long. I've said this many times.... Elite hitters establish bat speed prior to swing commitment without adding length to their swing. Her hands need to travel forward to create bat speed. I see the barrel path.... It has to happen in movement. Dynamic flattening is a term you have used. You know you aren't there yet. You are smart. Saying otherwise is dishonest. Unless it is true that you really can't see it...
    There's only one person being dishonest here Tewks...........Bla Bla Bla Bla...........Low effort swing Tewks..........Barrel/Bat speed are relevent to the effort..........

    Bla Bla Bla Bla.......HIS hands have to travel forward to create bat speed.........Bla Bla Bla Bla Bla..............



    Work in progress Bla Bla Bla Bla.........15 yo Girl/Pro..........Bla Bla Bla Bla..........

    Do me a favor and put me back on your "ignore list" so I don't have to listen to your BS ok buddy?.........

  20. #2640
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    Quote Originally Posted by FiveFrameSwing View Post
    You’ve probably seen Elk do the action below a hundred times or so ……

    Kind of strange how the shaft of the club ends up against his shoulder.
    Just Google my name to find me.

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