# Thread: BBCOR question for a math person

1. ## BBCOR question for a math person

Can one BBCOR bat be "hotter" than another?

Based on this comment from Dr. Nathan here:
http://www.baseballnews.com/features...bbcor_bats.htm
"With the BBCOR approved bats, the average seems to be .48 or .49, and at the very upper level, .50. The limit was at .50."

I am curious if it is possible to determine how big an impact a .04 (or .02) change in BBCOR value would make.

The protocol and formulas used to calculate BBCOR are here:
http://www.stevetheump.com/NCAABBCORProtocol.doc

Can we make assumptions about a bat and keep them constant
Length: 33
Weight: 30
MOI: 8538 (the limit for a 33/30)
BP: ?

and the other inputs to the model like inbound ball velocity, etc. to solve for Vr (Ball rebound velocity) given two different BBCOR values?

Then if we can have two different Vr's we could calculate what that would mean to ball distance using assumptions about trajectory etc?

2. No takers?

Has anyone come across any info on what the BBCOR value was on the hot broken in composites? I know they chose .50 because it was about the performance of the best wood, and that was supposed to represent about a 5% reduction in batted ball speed (over the hot composite bats or over regular BESR bats?) but have you seen any mention in articles about what the BBCOR values were of the "hot" bats? Was it .52 or .55 or .6? What are we talking about in terms of meaningful BBCOR value changes to cause a 5% drop in BBS?

3. duplicate post
Last edited by NoonTime; 12-21-2011 at 11:24 AM.

4. On another board I found a poster who's handle is EastonEngineer.... I asked him the following:

EE,
Thanks for your great info here! Question about the impact of BBCOR value differences on BBS. I have read various quotes from Dr. Nathan:
http://www.baseballnews.com/features...bbcor_bats.htm
"“With the BBCOR approved bats, the average seems to be .48 or .49, and at the very upper level, .50. The limit was at .50. "

and from here:
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/ar...-college-bats/
"The net outcome of all that effort was that I was able to show that for NCAA-type bats (which have a fairly narrow range of lengths and weights), BBCOR provided a direct correlation with BBS. By that I mean, if bat A has a higher BBCOR than bat B, then bat A will have a higher BBS than bat B."

So it's clear that some bats are going to be closer to the .50 limit than others, but what kind of impact on Batted Ball Speeds would a reduction or say .02 or .04 have?

What was the BBCOR value of a broken in "hot" composite BESR bat?

In general do you think manufacturers are going to be able to tune composites more precisely than alloy to get as close to the .50 limit as possible?

Cheers,
NoonTime
Generally speaking, a higher BBCOR will yield a higher BBS, but it's not a 1:1 correlation. You also have to take into consideration that the BBS he's referring to is not an on-field measurement, it's just the predicted batted-ball speed based on a calculation (very similar to the calculation used for ASA softball). Speaking generally though, a higher BBCOR yields a higher calculated BBS, and higher on field batted ball speed.

The correlation between BBCOR and BBS, numerically, has been debated. In my dissertation, I proposed that a 1 mph change in BBS would be equivalent to 0.016 point in BBCOR. In my testing experience here at Easton, I would say it's less than that, maybe more like 0.011.

A good high end BESR bat would probably be approaching 0.550 BBCOR. That means a high end BBCOR bat is producing about 4-5mph less than a BESR bat, which I would equate to about 30 feet or so in distance.

As it stands, most manufacturers have no issues putting alloy bats right on the limit. The problem with composites is break-in. The key is to minimize break-in so that the bat can be very close to the limit out of the wrapper, and not go over with use. I really think we do a good job of it, our new composite BBCORs are entirely different from last year. Other manufacturers haven't been so lucky yet, but I do expect that some of them will get there, and it will be because of the tune-ability that composites provide.

5. Originally Posted by NoonTime
No takers?

Has anyone come across any info on what the BBCOR value was on the hot broken in composites? I know they chose .50 because it was about the performance of the best wood, and that was supposed to represent about a 5% reduction in batted ball speed (over the hot composite bats or over regular BESR bats?) but have you seen any mention in articles about what the BBCOR values were of the "hot" bats? Was it .52 or .55 or .6? What are we talking about in terms of meaningful BBCOR value changes to cause a 5% drop in BBS?
What are the BBCOR "hot bats" that you're talking about?

As I said in a different thread, last season, I didn't see any actual difference in performance on the field between the a \$70 bat and ones that were \$200 and on up.

6. Originally Posted by mudvnine
What are the BBCOR "hot bats" that you're talking about?

As I said in a different thread, last season, I didn't see any actual difference in performance on the field between the a \$70 bat and ones that were \$200 and on up.
In the bold part that you cited, I was talking about the actual BBCOR value of the old BESR bats...

The Easton engineer guy answered the question by saying "A good high end BESR bat would probably be approaching 0.550 BBCOR."

Because I don't know how to do the math... I was attempting to draw some conclusions (possibly faulty) based on this... If we know an old BESR bat had a BBCOR value of .55, and the new BBCOR certified bats can have no higher than .50, and the on field difference (for high swing speeds) between "BESR" and "BBCOR" is about 30 feet of distance, then possibly we could conclude that the on field difference between a limit BBCOR certified bat (.50) and a BBCOR certified bat that was more under the limit (say .45) for the same high swing speed would be another 30 feet.

Based on EE's comments about most manufactures being able to get close to .50 with their alloy (especially given another year to get it right) I wouldn't think there would be much difference between various alloy BBCORs and whatever differences there are would be further mitigated by the generally slower swing speeds at the HS level. (which is all in line with your on field observations)

It does sound like there could be larger differences when comparing one composite BBCOR bat to another when it comes to the impact of the actual BBCOR value of the bat because of the different break in properties. One company may be able to start closer to .50 if their composite material doesn't increase in BBCOR value over time. Other companies may need to start more below .50 BBCOR because they know over time there will be an increase in BBCOR value of their composite.

All of this probably weighs in less than the MOI differences of the bats and the location/size of the sweet spot when it comes to on field performance for a particular hitter.

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how much hotter were the pre BESR bats compared to the BESR bats?

8. Originally Posted by NoonTime
All of this probably weighs in less than the MOI differences of the bats and the location/size of the sweet spot when it comes to on field performance for a particular hitter.
I will make a correction to my initial thoughts regarding the "no difference" between the bats . . .

There was a Nike BBCOR bat that a team showed up with in one game, and that bat had a distinctly different sound to it, as balls "jumped" off of it like none other I'd seen. So much so, that I was going to question the umpire about it and ask him to confirm that it was indeed a certified "BBCOR" bat (I saw a kid once slip in a BESR bat after the umpire's inspection).

However, as luck would have it, their final hitter of the inning flew out deep, and he and the 1st base coach jogged back to their dugout (our dugouts are backwards, we sit in the "visitors" dugout as the "home" team on our field), so I was able to pick the bat up and "inspect it" myself as I headed over the the 3rd base coach's box.

Well, it was stamped with all of the appropriate markings, so I just carried back to them. . . and beat it to death against their dugout fence!!! No I didn't . . . but don't think it didn't cross my mind.

9. Originally Posted by mudvnine
I will make a correction to my initial thoughts regarding the "no difference" between the bats . . .

There was a Nike BBCOR bat that a team showed up with in one game, and that bat had a distinctly different sound to it, as balls "jumped" off of it like none other I'd seen. So much so, that I was going to question the umpire about it and ask him to confirm that it was indeed a certified "BBCOR" bat (I saw a kid once slip in a BESR bat after the umpire's inspection).

However, as luck would have it, their final hitter of the inning flew out deep, and he and the 1st base coach jogged back to their dugout (our dugouts are backwards, we sit in the "visitors" dugout as the "home" team on our field), so I was able to pick the bat up and "inspect it" myself as I headed over the the 3rd base coach's box.

Well, it was stamped with all of the appropriate markings, so I just carried back to them. . . and beat it to death against their dugout fence!!! No I didn't . . . but don't think it didn't cross my mind.

10. Originally Posted by NoonTime
Yep, thought about that also . . .

Other strange thing was that when I went searching for that specific bat, I had a VERY hard time finding it, and an even harder time trying to locate a place to purchase one.

So they either did the above, found a prototype bat that wasn't to be "officially" released (I know a couple guys in our area the work for various bat companies, who hand out "test" bats), or it was just a VERY good legal bat.

I'm hoping and going with the third . . . an in all honesty, they were a very good hitting team. So while I'm sure the bat played some small part, they did square up a lot of ball quite nicely that I have to give them credit for . . . the bat alone, certainly didn't beat us that day.

11. Originally Posted by dominik
how much hotter were the pre BESR bats compared to the BESR bats?
Not sure Dom,
Pre BESR it sounds like they had bigger barrels and a larger min drop requirement too I think. Here are some interesting history type readings...

http://www.kettering.edu/physics/dru...CAA-stats.html

http://www.startribune.com/sports/67...6&c=y#continue

Of note was the section in the article about Jack MacKay
"MacKay was hired as a consultant by Louisville Slugger manufacturer Hillerich & Bradsby in 1989 in the company's attempt to catch up with California-based Easton Sports, Inc., which controlled much of the early aluminum bat market. He developed the full barrel design that he says led to the offensive explosion and corresponding concerns in college baseball. According to MacKay, he left the company in 1997 after seeing the speeds produced by the bats he helped design. Hillerich & Bradsby executives say MacKay quit over a contract dispute when he tried to join a competitor."

What is interesting is that in the 1998 CWS (The 1998 season being what prompted the BESR changes) from the Kettering article:
"During the 1998 College World Series between the University of Southern California Trojans and Arizona State University Sun Devils (USC won 21-14) at least 35 out of 111 CWS records were broken and 17 more were tied.[7,8] Both teams used Louisville Slugger aluminum bats. "

12. Another good history type read:

http://espn.go.com/gen/s/2000/0329/453294.html

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Originally Posted by NoonTime
great video

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BBCOR is an attempt to create a "model" that simultes the performance of wood bats. So.............are all wood bats created equally?

No. Ash, Maple, bamboo, birch, hickory all perform differently.

BBCOR bats all perform similarlly, but in my opinion, the big difference is in handle flex. It is hard to judge a BBCOR bat is Johny's hands and then compare it to Steve, or Billy. Why? Because they each may prefer a different handle flex. BBCOR's are different. You gotta experiment to find what works best for one kid or another.

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Originally Posted by NoonTime

http://espn.go.com/gen/s/2000/0329/453294.html
"A Brown University study commissioned by the NCAA in 1997 (www.nisss.org/Bsbll.htm) concluded that "bat speed was shown to have a stronger correlation with bat [balance point] than bat weight."

So why do bat companies not give a good definition of balance point? They only give 2 choices balance and end load. Very vague. i think Easton posted MOI for 1 year and has now stopped. Dont trust bat companies. But all you dads are so zealous to get Johny the best equipment , when wood would be the best.

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"It was a bold step for the NCAA, and it brought repercussions. Easton sued the NCAA, alleging the new regulations would interfere with its business practices."

WTF is this? Are you kidding me? This show how corrupt the bat co.'s are

More from the article:
"Louisville Slugger and Easton made millions by improving bat performance year after year. "It costs about the same to make a wood bat versus an aluminum bat," Mackay says. "About \$25. But you can't sell a wood bat for \$300."
Last edited by LAball; 12-25-2011 at 01:11 AM.

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"Andrew Sanchez might disagree. Last year, the Cal State Northridge pitcher had his skull fractured by a ball hit by a Louisville Slugger bat. Sanchez has sued the NCAA and the bat-maker, alleging that the NCAA and Louisville Slugger "should have known that the high powered bats increased the risk of injuries to pitchers."

Wood bats would be nice

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Yes, didn't you have preference for an aluminum bat? They all had the same BESR standard and did not break in like the old composite bats. The best indicator is to see what the college players are swinging. Schools have bat contracts but the players are allowed to pick which bat within the brand contract. There's a lot of good information at baseball bat reviews.

19. So a kid calls into a local radio station (700 WLW) to speak with former MLB player Tracy Jones.

"Tracy, my dad told me to call you, because I'm struggling at the plate."
"What's the problem?"
"Well I make contact, but I just can't seem to hit the ball very hard."
"Okay, here's what you do... pop off that plastic cap at the end of your bat. Pull out anything side the bat, foam or whatever and then jam in as many tennis balls as you can. Then put the cap back on the top of the bat and seal it with crazy glue."

20. NoonTime,

What are you trying to prove? I’m not seeing the point. BBCOR is the newest standard and has been for 2 years now in college and has made it through its 1st year in HS, and its 2nd in Ca HSs. Of course the companies will be improving their products. And in what world wouldn’t that happen?

What’s going to be the next great leap, will be when the non-wood manufacturers can churn out specific models like they do for wood. I read where LS has made 8,000 models, but today’s players choose from only about 300 popular models. When a player can order a bat to specific dimensions and weights from a company, that company will likely monopolize the business.

21. Originally Posted by scorekeeper
NoonTime,

What are you trying to prove? I’m not seeing the point. BBCOR is the newest standard and has been for 2 years now in college and has made it through its 1st year in HS, and its 2nd in Ca HSs. Of course the companies will be improving their products. And in what world wouldn’t that happen?

What’s going to be the next great leap, will be when the non-wood manufacturers can churn out specific models like they do for wood. I read where LS has made 8,000 models, but today’s players choose from only about 300 popular models. When a player can order a bat to specific dimensions and weights from a company, that company will likely monopolize the business.
Hey Scorekeeper... not sure I was trying to "prove" anything but I came up with a question and with my limited math skills I turned to the board for help... so the "point" was to satisfy my own curiosity. This thread was from last December and as discussions were flying around heading into last season, I was thinking about "Can one BBCOR bat be "hotter" than another?" So after reading the various links posted and the quote "With the BBCOR approved bats, the average seems to be .48 or .49, and at the very upper level, .50. The limit was at .50." I was curious if it is possible to determine how big an impact a .04 (or .02) change in BBCOR value would make given assumptions of same values for the other inputs to the given equations... would it be 5'? 15'? 30'?

I do not know where your angle of "Of course the companies will be improving their products." as I agree with that. They just won't be improving them by having the BBCOR value above .50 though Yes, tailor made bats would be cool.... but I'd be happy with just published MOI and size and location of sweet spot as IMO that is (or should be) the determining factor in picking a bat (I assume that most manufacturers should be able to get very close to the .50 limit for the actual BBCOR value, so that should play less of a deciding factor in what makes one bat "better" for a particular hitter than another.)

22. Originally Posted by NoonTime
… I do not know where your angle of "Of course the companies will be improving their products." as I agree with that. They just won't be improving them by having the BBCOR value above .50 though Yes, tailor made bats would be cool.... but I'd be happy with just published MOI and size and location of sweet spot as IMO that is (or should be) the determining factor in picking a bat (I assume that most manufacturers should be able to get very close to the .50 limit for the actual BBCOR value, so that should play less of a deciding factor in what makes one bat "better" for a particular hitter than another.)
Have you ever seen a wood bat’s MOI stamped on it anywhere? I haven’t, but I know darn well every model is slightly different, and to tell the truth, I don’t think its very important that a player needs to know that, as they should pitch a bat based on its “feel”, and go from there. There are some things better left to the individual.

23. Originally Posted by scorekeeper
Have you ever seen a wood bat’s MOI stamped on it anywhere? I haven’t, but I know darn well every model is slightly different, and to tell the truth, I don’t think its very important that a player needs to know that, as they should pitch a bat based on its “feel”, and go from there. There are some things better left to the individual.
Nope...but they do stamp the model number... and from year to year a P72 is a P72 and a I13L is a I13L. You telling me you don't think it's important that a player who is comfortable with and wants to swing a P72 gets another P72 when they order new bats? Once you know you like the "feel" of a P72 you can just go get another and be reasonably confident the balance and "feel" of the bat will be the same/similar as the last. Although you do hear stories of guys that are/were notoriously picky even when choosing their bats out of the shipment of "their" bats.

Thus far anyway, that is not how it works with metal bats... names change, materials change, construction changes. You get manufacturer word that bats are balanced or bats are end-loaded. You get anecdotal evidence and online reviews to further attempt to provide clarity. If you have time and access to all the different bats available by all means, step right up, close your eyes, swing away and go for the "feel". And then the next time you are in the market for a new bat you can do it all over again. Or if you "know" that you perform best with a 33"/30oz, 9100 MOI , with a sweet spot located slightly more toward the end of the barrel, you can just start there.... kinda like you would with wood and your particular favorite model.

Anyway.. the beauty is..even if/when they provide the information on each bat... those that want to go strictly by feel or by looks or by what superstar endorses it can still do so.... However, those that would rather buy their new car actually knowing the horsepower and MPG would also have that ability

24. Originally Posted by NoonTime
Nope...but they do stamp the model number... and from year to year a P72 is a P72 and a I13L is a I13L. You telling me you don't think it's important that a player who is comfortable with and wants to swing a P72 gets another P72 when they order new bats? Once you know you like the "feel" of a P72 you can just go get another and be reasonably confident the balance and "feel" of the bat will be the same/similar as the last. Although you do hear stories of guys that are/were notoriously picky even when choosing their bats out of the shipment of "their" bats.

Thus far anyway, that is not how it works with metal bats... names change, materials change, construction changes. You get manufacturer word that bats are balanced or bats are end-loaded. You get anecdotal evidence and online reviews to further attempt to provide clarity. If you have time and access to all the different bats available by all means, step right up, close your eyes, swing away and go for the "feel". And then the next time you are in the market for a new bat you can do it all over again. Or if you "know" that you perform best with a 33"/30oz, 9100 MOI , with a sweet spot located slightly more toward the end of the barrel, you can just start there.... kinda like you would with wood and your particular favorite model.

Anyway.. the beauty is..even if/when they provide the information on each bat... those that want to go strictly by feel or by looks or by what superstar endorses it can still do so.... However, those that would rather buy their new car actually knowing the horsepower and MPG would also have that ability
Its never been required before because non-woods have historically been bought by how “hot” they are rather than how they feel. But now that there’s been a “speed limit’ introduced, players will have to start looking for something else to base choosing their bats on. The nice thing about wood has always been that as long as it gets close to what you want, it can be fine tuned with some sandpaper, a wood file, steel wool, a bone, or something else. Kinda tough to do that when there are only a relatively few manufacturers with maybe 10 different models each.

Most players have lost the ability to make those kinds of changes because they never had to, but now I’m thinking it will come back. More tape on the grip, less, bigger knobs made by wrapping more tape around them, and of course my all time favorite, and what I taught my son when he was only 9, the application of lead tape to change the swing weight.

In the end, if someone is so picky they feel they need to actually know all the details, what is there to know they can’t find out for themselves in just a few minutes? But whatever is going to happen, it will happen when customers demand it enough, its just that simple.

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