Barry Larkin Vs Alan Trammell

[jalbright]

Aches, I'm curious. did you read my post #27? Larkin and Trammell are really being compared to at most 500 other shortstops, who had what can be called real careers. The 1% thing is a misperception.

In one sense, that's true. In the sense he used it, he's right. And, if you want to look at it another way, it's less than 1%, as lots of guys who played professionally didn't make it to the majors. You're arguing over how to define something. IMHO, the better way of looking at it is that if the candidate is in the top 20 at his position, that's a good argument for his induction. If he's in the top 15, he almost certainly belongs, and if he's not in the top 25, he almost certainly doesn't belong.

[Dick Groat's syndrome]

In one sense, that's true. In the sense he used it, he's right. And, if you want to look at it another way, it's less than 1%, as lots of guys who played professionally didn't make it to the majors. You're arguing over how to define something. IMHO, the better way of looking at it is that if the candidate is in the top 20 at his position, that's a good argument for his induction. If he's in the top 15, he almost certainly belongs, and if he's not in the top 25, he almost certainly doesn't belong.

So, I guess the question for aches and pains is, does Larkin not make the top 15 or 20 at shortstop for you? And/or do you only induct up to number 5? 10? x?

[ol' aches and pains]

IMHO, the better way of looking at it is that if the candidate is in the top 20 at his position, that's a good argument for his induction. If he's in the top 15, he almost certainly belongs, and if he's not in the top 25, he almost certainly doesn't belong.

So, I guess the question for aches and pains is, does Larkin not make the top 15 or 20 at shortstop for you? And/or do you only induct up to number 5? 10? x?

You have to take it on a case-by-case basis. Larkin may be in the top 20, but there are already 23 shortstops in the HOF, and they're not kicking out Rabbit Maranville to make room for Larkin. There may not be 20 shortstops deserving of the Hall of Fame. There are only 16 catchers, and 15 third basemen. Still, if Larkin gets in, it won't be a travesty, but nobody's going to convince me that Trammel (or his teammate Jack Morris) is a Hall-of-Famer.

[jjpm74]

If you took the ten best seasons from both players and added them together into a 20 year career, you might get ONE HOFer.

What they needed was some consistency at first base and a poem written about them.

If you really believe that, name 20 SS and 20 2B who are more deserving i.e. better. You should have no problem doing so.

[davewashere]

You have to take it on a case-by-case basis. Larkin may be in the top 20, but there are already 23 shortstops in the HOF, and they're not kicking out Rabbit Maranville to make room for Larkin. There may not be 20 shortstops deserving of the Hall of Fame. There are only 16 catchers, and 15 third basemen. Still, if Larkin gets in, it won't be a travesty, but nobody's going to convince me that Trammel (or his teammate Jack Morris) is a Hall-of-Famer.

See, I don't think mistakes of the past should hold back deserving players today. Of course Rabbit Maranville was a mistake, and so were a dozen or so other guys. That doesn't mean there isn't room for Larkin. On the flip side, I don't believe those mistakes should be used to lower the bar for the HOF. Can't we just ignore those obvious mistakes like Maranville and move on? The voters have not always been particularly savvy when judging talent from the past, and at times the voters (and I'm speaking specifically about the VC here) were downright corrupt.

[ol' aches and pains]

See, I don't think mistakes of the past should hold back deserving players today.

I don't either. I was just using that as an example to show you can't use an arbitrary number like 20 or 25 to determine who is or isn't a Hall-of-Famer.

Of course Rabbit Maranville was a mistake, and so were a dozen or so other guys. That doesn't mean there isn't room for Larkin. On the flip side, I don't believe those mistakes should be used to lower the bar for the HOF. Can't we just ignore those obvious mistakes like Maranville and move on?

Yes. We are moving on, as of today.

The voters have not always been particularly savvy when judging talent from the past, and at times the voters (and I'm speaking specifically about the VC here) were downright corrupt.

When I evaluate players, I don't use WAR, because I don't believe in comparing players to imaginary replacement players. Besides, trying to figure out how it's calculated makes my head hurt.

I have my own system. I compare them to a real flesh-and-blood player. I use Frenchy Bordagaray of the old Brooklyn Dodgers, because his stats are fairly typical, and I like his nickname. Frenchy was a free spirit. He was the only player in the 1930's with a mustache. You could say he was 40 years ahead of his time. He once spat on an umpire, a la Roberto Alomar, but instead of issuing some wishy-washy apology, Frenchy took his punishment like a man, although he did say "The fine was more than I expectorated."

I call my system Wins Topping Frenchy (WTF). If your stats aren't better than Frenchy's I disregard you, unless of course you've got a really interesting story to tell.

[chicagowhitesox1173]

I don't either. I was just using that as an example to show you can't use an arbitrary number like 20 or 25 to determine who is or isn't a Hall-of-Famer.



Yes. We are moving on, as of today.



When I evaluate players, I don't use WAR, because I don't believe in comparing players to imaginary replacement players. Besides, trying to figure out how it's calculated makes my head hurt.

I have my own system. I compare them to a real flesh-and-blood player. I use Frenchy Bordagaray of the old Brooklyn Dodgers, because his stats are fairly typical, and I like his nickname. Frenchy was a free spirit. He was the only player in the 1930's with a mustache. You could say he was 40 years ahead of his time. He once spat on an umpire, a la Roberto Alomar, but instead of issuing some wishy-washy apology, Frenchy took his punishment like a man, although he did say "The fine was more than I expectorated."

I call my system Wins Topping Frenchy (WTF). If your stats aren't better than Frenchy's I disregard you, unless of course you've got a really interesting story to tell.

Thats somewhat interesting about his mustache. I just read his wikipedia after you posted this and this cant be true but it said the 72 A's were the first team since Bordagaray to wear mustache's. There had to of been at least one guy who had a mustache between 1945 and 1972. Also i think it said Wally Schang was the last guy to have one before Bordagaray in 1914. So from 1915 to 1972 bordagaray was the only playe4r to have a mustache from what wikipedia says.

hour and a half until the voting im kinda excited to watch it on the mlb channel.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

I call my system Wins Topping Frenchy (WTF). If your stats aren't better than Frenchy's I disregard you, unless of course you've got a really interesting story to tell.

How about Moe Berg. He's interesting because:

1) He had a unibrow
2) Was a catcher
3) Worked for the OSS and spied on Japan
4) Began his baseball career at age 7 playing for the Methodist Episcopal Church baseball team
5) Could speak Latin, Greek, French, Spanish, Italian, German and Sanskrit.
6) Had a career -6.0 WAR.

[ol' aches and pains]

How about Moe Berg. He's interesting because:

1) He had a unibrow
2) Was a catcher
3) Worked for the OSS and spied on Japan
4) Began his baseball career at age 7 playing for the Methodist Episcopal Church baseball team
5) Could speak Latin, Greek, French, Spanish, Italian, German and Sanskrit.
6) Had a career -6.0 WAR.

Love Moe Berg. He spoke seven languages, and couldn't hit in any of them.

[chicagowhitesox1173]

How about Moe Berg. He's interesting because:

1) He had a unibrow
2) Was a catcher
3) Worked for the OSS and spied on Japan
4) Began his baseball career at age 7 playing for the Methodist Episcopal Church baseball team
5) Could speak Latin, Greek, French, Spanish, Italian, German and Sanskrit.
6) Had a career -6.0 WAR.

yeah he deff was to. I remember reading a story how he played in some kind of allstar game in Japan and took a day off to take pictures on some highrise of Tokyo and the military actually used those photos to help em in WW2. This was in the 30's so we must have had our eye on Japan for awhile before WW2.

[Cougar]

Love Moe Berg. He spoke seven languages, and couldn't hit in any of them.

Eight...he spoke English too!

[Cougar]

yeah he deff was to. I remember reading a story how he played in some kind of allstar game in Japan and took a day off to take pictures on some highrise of Tokyo and the military actually used those photos to help em in WW2.

There was a really good biography of Moe Berg out not so long ago. He was a genuine International Man of Mystery. At one point during the war he went to a conference in occupied Denmark to see how close the great Danish physicist Niels Bohr was to splitting the atom and thereby give Nazi Germany the A-bomb. If Bohr were too close, Berg had orders to murder him. Fortunately for Bohr (and humanity), he wasn't.

EDIT: Incidentally, in order for Berg to judge Bohr's progress, he had to be well-versed in the state-of-the-art nuclear physics and propulsion science of the day, which, well, pretty much was rocket science. Moe Berg was genuinely brilliant -- he didn't just have a gift for languages -- he had a gift for everything!

[Dick Groat's syndrome]

I don't either. I was just using that as an example to show you can't use an arbitrary number like 20 or 25 to determine who is or isn't a Hall-of-Famer.

Yet you use the equally arbitrary 1%, and you seem to arbitrarily distinguish between players. Alan Trammell and Barry Larkin are basically the same player no matter how you slice it.

[Steven Gallanter]

How about Moe Berg. He's interesting because:

1) He had a unibrow
2) Was a catcher
3) Worked for the OSS and spied on Japan
4) Began his baseball career at age 7 playing for the Methodist Episcopal Church baseball team
5) Could speak Latin, Greek, French, Spanish, Italian, German and Sanskrit.
6) Had a career -6.0 WAR.

Yes, Meritorious Contributions are legitimate. I would have no problem with the selection of Moe Berg on that basis. On a different note I think that "Tommy John surgery" would be significant for inclusion of Tommy John as a Meritorious Contributor.

Dale Murphy's significance as the 1st. sports star of the cable era, not Michael Jordan or Hulk Hogan, bolsters Murphy's already deserving cause

[Cougar]

Trammell made a big jump this year, and will make an even bigger jump next year, even in the face of the crowded ballot, because of the similarity between him and Larkin and the realization that if Larkin is a HOFer, Trammell must be too.

Trammell will get in very fast via the VC, I predict...probably in tandem with Lou Whitaker.