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Thread: Pirates BBF Franchise HOF round three

  1. #1
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    Pirates BBF Franchise HOF round three

    This election will close on January 28, 2012, at 7:00 a.m EST.

    This is the third round for this franchise. The secong round is here.

    We inducted the following players:
    Babe Adams
    Barry Bonds
    Max Carey
    Fred Clarke
    Roberto Clemente
    Wilbur Cooper
    Bob Friend
    Ralph Kiner
    Vern Law
    Tommy Leach
    Sam Leever
    Bill Mazeroski
    Dave Parker
    Willie Stargell
    Pie Traynor
    Andy Van Slyke
    Arky Vaughan
    Honus Wagner
    Paul Waner

    Now the contributors:
    Joe Brown
    Barney Dreyfuss
    Danny Murtaugh

    PLEASE READ THE FORMAT AND RULES SECTION BEFORE VOTING. THANK YOU.

    FORMAT AND RULES

    Purpose: The purpose of this project is to create a Hall of Fame for each franchise whereby each franchise will honor those individuals whose contributions and accomplishments are most notable, significant, and enduring to that franchise's history. This project is not about simply honoring those with the best statistics with each franchise.

    Standards: Each franchise has its own unique history and context, and thus contributions and accomplishments that may stand out remarkably within one franchise's history, may not be so remarkable in another franchise's history. Standards from franchise to franchise will inherently vary, and thus there should be no impetus to create equal standards among the franchises or to aspire to the standards of the National Baseball Hall of Fame. Consequently, subjectivity within the context of the franchise in question will play an inevitable role when considering an individual's contributions and accomplishments with respect to that franchise. In sum, a franchise's Hall of Fame should be unaffected by the standards and contexts of other franchises as well as the National Baseball Hall of Fame, and should be entirely a product of its own history.

    Election Format: Elections will be conducted one franchise at a time starting in chronological order with the oldest continuously and currently operational franchise. Each election will last approximately five days.
    - Ballot Size: Voters can select up to 15 players and 5 contributors per election. There is no minimum ballot size.
    - Ballot Editing: To account for ongoing discussion, voters may edit their ballots as often as necessary through the end of an election.
    - Election Percentage: Any individual that is listed on at least 75% of either the player or contributor submitted ballots will be elected to that team's Hall of Fame. In instances where an individual receive votes as both a player and a contributor, that individual will be elected if listed on at least 75% of ballots in either category or if the individual's combined vote total is at least 75% of the category with the greatest number of ballots submitted. However, a minimum of six votes is needed for election.
    - Subsequent Rounds: After an election has been performed for each franchise, a second round of elections will commence, again proceeding in chronological order. A third round of elections (and perhaps beyond) may also be held depending on interest.

    Eligibility:
    - Players: Players may be considered by any currently operational franchise for which they appeared and are eligible either immediately upon officially retiring or after having not appeared at any level of professional baseball for an entire season for reasons not due to injury.
    - Contributors: Individuals that contributed in other capacities to a franchise may be considered, including managers, coaches, executives, owners, and broadcasters. Mascots are eligible. Contributors that are still active may only be elected by their current employing franchise, and cannot be considered by prior employing franchises until no longer active (this does not apply to individuals who are employed by a franchise only in nominal and/or non-integral ways, such as in scouting, consulting, or public relations capacities).
    - Multiple Capacities: The totality of contributions and accomplishments with respect to a franchise are to be considered, and thus an individual can only be elected once by a franchise. For purposes of ballot size limits, an individual should be designated either a player or contributor based on what the voter perceives to be the individual's greater role with the franchise. An individual should not be listed as either a player or contributor merely to facilitate ballot space for the other category.
    - Relocations/Renaming: Franchises that have relocated and/or been renamed, may still consider and elect individuals that were with the franchise prior to the relocation/renaming.
    - Multiple Franchises: An individual may be considered and elected by multiple franchises.

    PITTSBURGH PIRATES
    Franchise History
    - Founded: 1882 (AA from 1882-1886, NL since)
    - Former Locations/Names: Pittsburgh Alleghenys (1882-1890)

    Titles
    - World Series Championships: 5 (1909, 1925, 1960, 1971, 1979)
    - Pennants: 9 (1901, 1902, 1903, 1909, 1925, 1927, 1960, 1971, 1979)
    - Division Titles: 9 (1970, 1971, 1972, 1974, 1975, 1979, 1990, 1991, 1992)
    - Wild Card Berths: 0

    Helpful Links
    The following links are all courtesy of baseball-reference.com, baseball-almanac.com, and wikipedia.com and may assist voters in determining an individual's impact on this franchise:
    - Franchise Almanac
    - All Batters
    - All Pitchers
    - Batting Leaders
    - Pitching Leaders
    - Most Common Positional Starters
    - Most Common Pitching Staff Alignments
    - Managers
    - Notable Owners and Executives
    - Notable Broadcasters

    Award Recipients
    - MVP Recipients (7): Barry Bonds (1992), Barry Bonds (1990), Willie Stargell (1979), Dave Parker (1978), Roberto Clemente (1966), Dick Groat (1960), Paul Waner (1927)

    - Cy Young Recipients (2): Doug Drabek (1990), Vern Law (1960)

    - RoY Recipients (1): Jason Bay (2004)

    - Batting Triple Crown (0):

    - Pitching Triple Crown (0):

    Multiple All Star Selections (no adjustment for double selections for 1959-1962)
    Code:
    Rank 	Player			Selections
    1	Roberto Clemente	15
    2	Bill Mazeroski		10
    3	Arky Vaughan		8
    t4	Smoky Burgess		7
    t4	Willie Stargell		7
    t6	Roy Face		6
    t6	Dick Groat		6
    8	Ralph Kiner		5
    t9	Bobby Bonilla		4
    t9	Bob Elliott		4
    t9	Bob Friend		4
    t9	Dave Parker		4
    t9	Tony Pena		4
    t9	Rip Sewell		4
    t9	Paul Waner		4
    t16	Frankie Gustine		3
    t16	Jason Kendall*		3
    t16	Al Oliver		3
    t16	Freddy Sanchez*		3
    t16	Manny Sanguillen	3
    t16	Bob Skinner		3
    t16	Frank Thomas		3
    t16	Andy Van Slyke		3
    t24	Gene Alley		2
    t24	Matty Alou		2
    t24	Jason Bay*		2
    t24	Barry Bonds		2
    t24	Vince DiMaggio		2
    t24	Phil Garner		2
    t24	Brian Giles		2
    t24	Vern Law		2
    t24	Bill Madlock		2
    t24	Dick Stuart		2
    t24	Pie Traynor		2
    t24	Bob Veale		2
    t24	Mike Williams		2
    
    * Player is currently active
    Notable Player List
    The following is a list of retired players who with this franchise had at least 3,000 plate appearances (or 2,500 if predominantly played during the 19th Century), 1,000 innings pitched, or appeared as pitcher in 200 games. This list is purely meant as a guide for players who contributed to this franchise over some modicum of time, though players with this franchise not appearing on this list may still be considered by voters, as it is entirely possible that a player may have made a significant and lasting contribution to this franchise despite having a relatively short tenure with the franchise.

    Code:
    Players (100)
    Babe Adams
    Gene Alley
    Matty Alou
    Clyde Barnhart
    Ginger Beaumont
    Jake Beckley
    Jay Bell
    Lou Bierbauer
    Carson Bigbee
    Steve Blass
    Barry Bonds
    Bobby Bonilla
    Max Butcher
    Howie Camnitz
    John Candelaria
    Max Carey
    Fred Carroll
    Fred Clarke
    Roberto Clemente
    Donn Clendenon
    Wilbur Cooper
    Murry Dickson
    Patsy Donovan
    Doug Drabek
    Bob Elliott
    Dock Ellis
    Bones Ely
    Roy Face
    Elbie Fletcher
    Larry French
    Bob Friend
    Pud Galvin
    George Gibson
    Brian Giles
    Dave Giusti
    George Grantham
    Charlie Grimm
    Dick Groat
    Frankie Gustine
    Lee Handley
    Pink Hawley
    Richie Hebner
    Frank Killen
    Ralph Kiner
    Jeff King
    Bruce Kison
    Ron Kline
    Ray Kremer
    Vern Law
    Tommy Leach
    Sam Seever
    Lefty Leifield
    Jose Lind
    Bill Madlock
    Al Martin
    Bill Mazeroski
    Al McBean
    Doggie Miller
    Bob Moose
    Omar Moreno
    Ed Morris
    Johnny Morrison
    Al Oliver
    Dave Parker
    Tony Pena
    Deacon Phillippe
    Johnny Ray
    Jerry Reuss
    Rick Rhoden
    Claude Ritchey
    Don Robinson
    Jim Rooker
    Jim Russell
    Manny Sanguillen
    Scott Sauerbeck
    Rip Sewell
    Bob Skinner
    Mike Smith
    Willie Stargell
    Rennie Stennett
    Gus Suhr
    Bill Swift
    Jesse Tannehill
    Kent Tekulve
    Frank Thomas
    Salomon Torres
    Pie Traynor
    Andy Van Slyke
    Arky Vaughan
    Bob Veale
    Bill Virdon
    Honus Wagner
    Bob Walk
    Lloyd Waner
    Paul Waner
    Mike Williams
    Vic Willis
    Chief Wilson
    Kevin Young
    Notable Managers (with at least 300 games managed with this franchise or at least one pennant win)
    Code:
    Manager			Games		Win %	WS Titles	Pennants	Div Titles	Wild Cards
    Hugo Bezdek		356		.470
    Al Buckenberger		336		.565
    Donie Bush		427		.580			1
    Fred Clarke		2427		.595	1		4
    Jewel Ens		344		.513
    Frankie Frisch		1085		.505
    George Gibson		733		.549
    Fred Haney		462		.353
    Gene Lamont		647		.457
    Jim Leyland		1716		.496					3
    Lloyd McClendon		782		.430
    Bill McKechnie		707		.583	1
    Billy Meyer		774		.412
    Danny Murtaugh		2068		.540	2		5		4
    Horace Phillips		621		.482
    John Russell		485		.384
    Larry Shepard		320		.514
    Chuck Tanner		1398		.509	1		1		1
    Jim Tracy		324		.417
    Pie Traynor		868		.530
    Bill Virdon		291		.560			1		1
    Harry Walker		409		.549
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  2. #2
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    My balllot:

    Players:
    Ginger Beaumont
    Jake Beckley
    Bobby Bonilla
    John Candelaria
    Roy Face
    Elbie Fletcher
    Pud Galvin
    Brian Giles
    Ed Morris
    Al Oliver
    Tony Pena
    Deacon Phillippe
    Manny Sanguillen
    Jesse Tannehill
    Bob Veale

    Contributor:
    Bob Prince
    Chuck Tanner
    Last edited by jalbright; 01-25-2012 at 07:06 AM.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  3. #3
    Players
    Gene Alley
    Jay Bell
    Bobby Bonilla
    Smoky Burgess
    Doug Drabek
    Bob Elliott
    Roy Face
    Brian Giles
    Dick Groat
    Al Oliver
    Tony Pena
    Manny Sangullen
    Rick Rhoden
    Rip Sewell
    Bob Veale

    Contributors
    John Forbes
    John Galbreath
    Bill McKechnie
    Bob Prince
    Chuck Tanner

  4. #4
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    Players
    Ginger Beaumont
    Jake Beckley
    John Candelaria
    Bob Elliott
    Elbie Fletcher
    Brian Giles
    Richie Hebner
    Jason Kendall
    Ed Morris
    Al Oliver
    Deacon Phillippe
    Manny Sanguillen
    Mike Smith
    Jesse Tannehill
    Lloyd Waner

    Contributors
    Donie Bush
    George Gibson
    Bill McKechnie
    Chuck Tanner
    Bill Virdon
    *** Submit your personal HOF as your ballot for the Single Ballot BBF Hall of Fame! *** Also: Buck the Fraves!

  5. #5
    Players:

    Ginger Beaumont

    Jake Beckley

    John Candelaria

    Elbie Fletcher

    Brian Giles

    Jason Kendall

    Ed Morris

    Al Oliver

    Deacon Phillipe

    Bob Veale


    Contributors:

    Bill McKechnie

    Bob Prince

    Chuck Tanner
    Last edited by NJRob65; 01-14-2012 at 08:49 PM.

  6. #6
    Haven't voted yet, but I will. I normally don't do a lot of lobbying, but I'll state categorically that, except for a couple of managers and GM/owner types, NOBODY was a bigger contributor to Pittsburgh Pirates baseball than Bob Prince. I guess you had to live it to understand it, but for more than 25 years Prince was more than the voice of the Pirates- he embodied the spirit, heart, and soul of the players and the team through his broadcasts. EVERYBODY in the tri-state area had an opinion of Prince- and it wasn't always positive, though it usually was. Prince had the uncanny ability to make everybody talk about baseball and the Pirates. He also played a very large role in helping Roberto Clemente become a hero to the Pirates fans. He glossed over Clemente's rough edges, he relentlessly played up (and sometimes overplayed) Clemente's abilities, he became a spokesman in many ways for Clemente, who for years (understandably) didn't speak English particularly well. Prince, in many ways, WAS baseball in Pittsburgh.

  7. #7
    Players:

    Jake Beckley
    Ginger Beaumont
    Bobby Bonilla
    Doug Drabek
    Bob Elliott
    Roy Face
    Pud Galvin
    Brian Giles
    Dick Groat
    Ed Morris
    Al Oliver
    Tony Pena
    Deacon Phillippe
    Rip Sewell
    Jesse Tannehill

    Contributors:

    Bob Prince (thanks BigRon for reminding me how important he's been to this franchise)
    Chuck Tanner

    Quote Originally Posted by jalbright View Post
    Vern Law
    Vern Law was elected last election

  8. #8
    Ginger Beaumont
    John Candelaria
    Elroy Face
    Brian Giles- a short run, but he was almost uniformly excellent
    Dick Groat- surprised he hasn't gotten more support
    Jason Kendall
    Al Oliver
    Tony Pena
    Deacon Phillipe
    Rip Sewell
    Gus Suhr- I'm the only one?
    Kent Tekulve- seriously, he hasn't been elected yet? No other votes? What gives?
    Bob Veale
    Bill Virdon
    Lloyd Waner

    I like Elliott, Drabek, Blass, MAlou, Burgess, Hebner- if there's a fourth round

    Contributors

    John Galbreath
    Bill McKechnie
    Bob Prince
    Chuck Tanner

  9. #9
    When I was putting my ballot together I didn't have Kent Tekulve down, just assuming he'd been elected in round 2. Then I looked. I guess i'm amazed that no one else has voted for Tekulve. He was a really good relief pitcher for the Pirates for more than 10 years, really not that far behind Quisenberry.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjpm74 View Post
    Vern Law was elected last election
    So he was. I went for Oliver instead.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  11. #11
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    We've got six votes, which is enough to elect someone. We need two more to have a shot at another election for this franchise.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  12. #12
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    bumping the thread.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  13. #13
    Players
    Jake Beckley
    Smoky Burgess
    John Candelaria
    Doug Drabek
    Bob Elliott
    Pud Galvin
    Roy Face
    Dick Groat
    Al Oliver
    Tony Pena
    Manny Sanguillen
    Rip Sewell
    Kent Tekulve

    Contributors
    John Forbes
    John Galbreath
    Bill McKechnie
    Bob Prince
    Chuck Tanner

  14. #14
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    Tony Pena
    Brian Giles
    Manny Sanguillen
    Roy Face
    Kent Tekulve
    Deacon Phillippe
    Jake Beckley
    Lloyd Waner
    Ginger Beaumont
    John Candelaria
    Doug Drabek
    Al Oliver
    "It ain't braggin' if you can do it!" Dizzy Dean

    "I sure was having a picnic with Frisch. You oughta seen the fellows in the clubhouse when I was puttin' him on. They was duckin' behind posts, tryin' to keep Frank from seein' how they was laughin', an' I had a time keepin' a straight face myself. I hope Frank manages the Cardinals forever. I sure love to drive that Dutchman nuts!" Dizzy Dean

  15. #15
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    I'll add a vote for Bob Prince.

    We're at eight votes for players, so I'll be looking at the results more closely to see if this franchise gets another round of voting. There are seven contributor votes, and that's one shy of what's needed to keep that part of the ballot to have a chance of continuing.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herr28 View Post
    Tony Pena
    Brian Giles
    Manny Sanguillen
    Roy Face
    Kent Tekulve
    Deacon Phillippe
    Jake Beckley
    Lloyd Waner
    Ginger Beaumont
    John Candelaria
    Doug Drabek
    Al Oliver
    Welcome to the voting, herr28! While I'm glad to have your input, in the future, please do me the favor of alphabetizing your list of persons voted for. I use a spreadsheet with the names alphabetized, and following that simple request makes it so much easier for me to compile the results. Thank you.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  17. #17
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    Sorry about that! Will alphabetize in the future! Thanks for your work!
    "It ain't braggin' if you can do it!" Dizzy Dean

    "I sure was having a picnic with Frisch. You oughta seen the fellows in the clubhouse when I was puttin' him on. They was duckin' behind posts, tryin' to keep Frank from seein' how they was laughin', an' I had a time keepin' a straight face myself. I hope Frank manages the Cardinals forever. I sure love to drive that Dutchman nuts!" Dizzy Dean

  18. #18
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    I'm changing my ballot, dropping Ray Kremer and Mike Smith and replacing them with Roy Face and Tony Pena.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  19. #19
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    We had eight player and seven contributor ballots. That will end the contributor ballots, but we did elect a couple of contributors this time. The player ballot will continue, with eight more candidates elected this time. I'll present both lists, those above the "======" line being elected, the rest not.

    8 Oliver, Al
    7 Giles, Brian
    6 Beaumont, Ginger
    6 Beckley, Jake
    6 Candelaria, John
    6 Face, Roy
    6 Pena, Tony
    6 Phillippe, Deacon
    = ================
    5 Sanguillen, Manny
    4 Drabek, Doug
    4 Elliott, Bob
    4 Groat, Dick
    4 Morris, Ed
    4 Sewell, Rip
    4 Veale, Bob
    3 Bonilla, Bobby
    3 Fletcher, Elbie
    3 Galvin, Pud
    3 Kendall, Jason
    3 Tannehill, Jesse
    3 Tekulve, Kent
    3 Waner, Lloyd
    2 Burgess, Smoky
    1 Alley, Gene
    1 Bell, Jay
    1 Hebner, Richie
    1 Rhoden, Rick
    1 Smith, Mike
    1 Suhr, Gus
    1 Virdon, Bill


    Now the contributors:
    7 Tanner, Chuck
    6 Prince, Bob
    = ===========
    5 McKechnie, Bill
    3 Galbreath, John
    2 Forbes, John
    1 Bush, Donie
    1 Gibson, George
    1 Virdon, Bill
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  20. #20
    A couple of comments. I voted for Pena, but I believe he was third among Kendall, Sanguillen, and himself AS PIRATES. All 3 had similar OPS+ as Pirates (Kendall was highest), but Kendall and Sanguillen both played well over 50% more games as Pirates. Pena was a better defensive catcher than Kendall, but Kendall has 31.5 career WAR as A Pirate, Sanguillen 24.3, and Pena 19.3. Strictly as a Pirate I believe Kendall was the best of the three.

    Also, Lloyd Waner, while not deserving of Cooperstown, played long and well for the Pirates. He was almost strictly a singles hitter, but in 14 seasons with the Pirates plus fractions of 3 other seasons, he amassed 2317 hits while playing a fine centerfield.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by BigRon View Post
    A couple of comments. I voted for Pena, but I believe he was third among Kendall, Sanguillen, and himself AS PIRATES. All 3 had similar OPS+ as Pirates (Kendall was highest), but Kendall and Sanguillen both played well over 50% more games as Pirates. Pena was a better defensive catcher than Kendall, but Kendall has 31.5 career WAR as A Pirate, Sanguillen 24.3, and Pena 19.3. Strictly as a Pirate I believe Kendall was the best of the three.

    Also, Lloyd Waner, while not deserving of Cooperstown, played long and well for the Pirates. He was almost strictly a singles hitter, but in 14 seasons with the Pirates plus fractions of 3 other seasons, he amassed 2317 hits while playing a fine centerfield.
    Kendall is the best catcher in Pirate history, the fact that he has yet to make the Pirate BBF HOF after three rounds of voting is egregious. As you correctly stated, he had a higher war than both Manny Sanguilen, who received more votes in this round than Kendall and Tony Pena, who was elected.

    Waner doesn't have as strong a case, but he did manage to accumulate a 24.8 WAR for the Pirates.

  22. #22
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    I realized I had voted for Roy Face but not Kent Tekulve. When I compare their Pirate careers, it's tough to choose which was better. I think I should support both.:

    Let's look at Roy Face and Kent Tekulve of the Pirates with my main measures:

    Tekulve
    career WAR with franchise 18.8
    best 3 seasons of WAR with franchise 9.7
    best 5 consecutive WAR with franchise 11.4

    Face
    career WAR with franchise 16.9
    best 3 seasons of WAR with franchise 8.7
    best 5 consecutive WAR with franchise 10.3

    This would tilt the balance toward Tekulve. However we can also compare Tekulve and Face with the Pirates in terms of how they performed against the relievers who were their peers. Tekulve had five rankings better than that, a 4th in 1978, a 5th in 1983, a 7th in 1979, a 13th in 1981, and an 18th in 1982. When we compare Face to his peer relievers, he was better than Tekulve: 2d overall in 1956 and 1962, 3d overall in 1959, 7th in 1960, 8th in 1958, 14th in 1966 and 1967, and 18th in 1957. It's a close call between them, depending on what you give the most weight to.
    Last edited by jalbright; 02-12-2012 at 01:03 PM.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

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