Swing Thoughts

[Jslo]

Hello, long time lurker... I finally signed up

I'm wondering if anyone has thoughts on my sons swing. Here are a few clips, some are at the Baseball Performance Training Center and some are at his hitting T setup in the garage:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6Weq1zm544&sns=em

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVnQg8gKA0I&sns=em

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pcdSKL_s54&sns=em

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJdERWwJ8l0&sns=em

Thanks for any feedback!

[cbb]

bug squish

[Jslo]

bug squish

What do you mean by that? And how do you fix it? Thanks!

[DodgerFan21627]

He is lacking separation between upper and lower body which means he's losing out on some power, but I really like the bat path. Not really where it begins but what it does during the swing.

[omg]

Bad lower body: steps in bucket (yes, just a little but enough), back leg action inconsistent, no hip cock, stride is pointless-doesn't step straight at pitcher, doesn't time pitch, no positive move toward pitcher, no aggressive move toward pitcher, he pretty much stands in the same place and swings (yes it gives him balance,yes he makes good contact but so what-not going to result in hard, smoked line drives), been coached up too much-not natural

[Jake Patterson]

Jslo,
He not that far off.... He's obviousy been coached.
Again, with players like this I like to go a little beyond the clips and analyze key points of the swing.
Look at this and compare him to some of the better clips in Pic Clips and Sites


zzz.PNG

[Jslo]

This is really helpful. I have been watching his swing develop and eventually I don't "see" things as cleanly. He is working on being more natural, and yes maybe overcoached.

[Jslo]

Jslo,
He not that far off.... He's obviousy been coached.
Again, with players like this I like to go a little beyond the clips and analyze key points of the swing.
Look at this and compare him to some of the better clips in Pic Clips and Sites


zzz.PNG

Here is this clip I threw together- thanks to Chris O for the Pujols clip, and this is game footage from late last season of my son.

[mudvnine]

"Jslo",

While I understand what "DodgerFan21627" is getting at when he says, "He is lacking separation between upper and lower body which means he's losing out on some power", I have come to use the term "loading" in it's place, as "separation" IMO, is simply a "result/effect" of proper loading.

So, in your son's swing, he has no really loading of any type around the rear leg (lower half), that would, in itself bring the hands/torso/upper half (referenced in several different way) rearward.

Once he has loaded the lower half (while the upper half is still "loading") and begins to open the lower half to the incoming pitch, he will be creating a "stretch" along the rear torso ("axillary lines" for those so inclined)......so you now have the lower half turning forward with the upper half turning/remaining rearward......hence, "separation".

Separating the upper half from the lower half, or "the hands from the rear hip", and not "the hands from the lead leg/foot" as you'll often times hear.

Something like this.....



If you look quickly, I think you can see him "step-in" to close/coil the rear hip, and as he does, his upper half also turns rearward ("effect", not "cause"....ie. don't counter-rotate or turn the shoulders independently)......as the pitch approaches, his lower half begins to the ball as he keeps his upper half/shoulders from moving, until they are eventually pulled/turned into the swing by the now rapidly accelerating lower half.

Yes, I know.....that was a lot to take in. So to make it easier in the beginning, have him start by, "going backwards to go forwards" (using his legs and hips, and not his shoulders to turn rearward), then work from there.


Best of luck,
mud -

[DodgerFan21627]

"Jslo",

While I understand what "DodgerFan21627" is getting at when he says, "He is lacking separation between upper and lower body which means he's losing out on some power", I have come to use the term "loading" in it's place, as "separation" IMO, is simply a "result/effect" of proper loading.

So, in your son's swing, he has no really loading of any type around the rear leg (lower half), that would, in itself bring the hands/torso/upper half (referenced in several different way) rearward.

Once he has loaded the lower half (while the upper half is still "loading") and begins to open the lower half to the incoming pitch, he will be creating a "stretch" along the rear torso ("axillary lines" for those so inclined)......so you now have the lower half turning forward with the upper half turning/remaining rearward......hence, "separation".

Separating the upper half from the lower half, or "the hands from the rear hip", and not "the hands from the lead leg/foot" as you'll often times hear.

Something like this.....



If you look quickly, I think you can see him "step-in" to close/coil the rear hip, and as he does, his upper half also turns rearward ("effect", not "cause"....ie. don't counter-rotate or turn the shoulders independently)......as the pitch approaches, his lower half begins to the ball as he keeps his upper half/shoulders from moving, until they are eventually pulled/turned into the swing by the now rapidly accelerating lower half.

Yes, I know.....that was a lot to take in. So to make it easier in the beginning, have him start by, "going backwards to go forwards" (using his legs and hips, and not his shoulders to turn rearward), then work from there.


Best of luck,
mud -

Thanks for explaining that better than I could.

[mudvnine]

Here is this clip I threw together- thanks to Chris O for the Pujols clip, and this is game footage from late last season of my son.

Good clips.....look at their hips.

Although Pujols loads differently than Pena (style), he accomplishes the same thing(s).

1. Turns the lower half rearward (subtle, but compare the front knees/hips in this case), which in turn moves the upper half rearward.
2. Turns the lower half forward as the upper half turns/remains rearward.
3. Accelerating hip(s) pull the upper half around.....(it's not the shoulders/arms powering the swing, but the rear leg/hip).

Your son is more shoulders/arms and should be more leg/hip.

[omg]

Here is this clip I threw together- thanks to Chris O for the Pujols clip, and this is game footage from late last season of my son.

http://vimeo.com/35803844

Yes, coaching has fouled him up. He just sits there and attempts to spin. As mentioned, his "load" is poor or nonexistent. He makes no positive toward the ball and pitcher. Had he not been coached up he might have developed this.

Forget Pujois as a model. Forget Pujois as a model. Pujois has developed a brilliant disciplined style that is based on his strength and skill. He and the Ryan Howard/Mark Mcguire types have made the appropriate trade-offs between power and contact. For normal human beings these styles are not the best.

[Jslo]

These are all great insights. I'm going to try and keep it simple in terms of what to say all at once can be overwhelming. I think if I try to nurture a little more natural swing motion, less rigid, with a better load and stride that initiates with the hips and an intentional hip cock this will help him.

He tend's to hit opposite field, especially in games. Rarely a pull. I think it may all be a chain reaction in terms of opening too early and not setting back as part of a hip cock which prevents the desired uncoil effect using too much arms, and not enough lower body and with the bat as a stick instead of a whip that is lashing the ball HARD?

I love some of the Mantle clips. There is a violence to his swing that I just love. He stinkin HATES the ball coming in and just LASHES it with his full body. Love it.

Talking about how swings look and feel is kinda hard as you all know very well, but this is really helpful.

Adding to the confusion is his coaches from his travel ball are telling him one thing (more linear which I don't love), and his Baseball Performance swing coach is telling him another (more rotational/high-level which I love). So, YES OVERCOACHED lol.

He is handling it well.

[omg]

Adding to the confusion is his coaches from his travel ball are telling him one thing (more linear which I don't love), and his Baseball Performance swing coach is telling him another (more rotational/high-level which I love). So, YES OVERCOACHED lol.

Like chasing Red Bull with Niquil.

[Jslo]

Like chasing Red Bull with Niquil.

That's hilarious.

[cbb]

Forget Pujois as a model. Forget Pujois as a model. Pujois has developed a brilliant disciplined style that is based on his strength and skill. He and the Ryan Howard/Mark Mcguire types have made the appropriate trade-offs between power and contact. For normal human beings these styles are not the best.

agree 100%!!

[Jslo]

Good thought. People have to find their own rhythm and swing. However mechanics still need to be in place! Here is a swing from practice tonight in live pitch cage.
We are working on getting the hips more involved, a better load, and moving toward the pitcher. Swing to hurt the ball.

http://youtu.be/-GR7zEbbDpc

[mudvnine]

Good thought. People have to find their own rhythm and swing.

I think this is the right thought process, however, I'm still not really seeing any in your son's swing.

Some have described it as "dancing with the pitcher", others like "backwards to go forwards", but whichever cue or way you go about it.....he needs to get some sort of "pre-swing" movement (ie. rhythm), so he's not trying to start his swing from a dead stop.

We are working on getting the hips more involved, a better load, and moving toward the pitcher. Swing to hurt the ball.

These are all good things that I think are becoming more visible, but I think he needs something that puts him in better "rhythm" with the pitcher, and not just "moving toward" him.


Keep up the good work, and best of luck,
mud -

[jbooth]

Hello, long time lurker... I finally signed up

I'm wondering if anyone has thoughts on my sons swing. Here are a few clips, some are at the Baseball Performance Training Center and some are at his hitting T setup in the garage:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6Weq1zm544&sns=em

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVnQg8gKA0I&sns=em

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pcdSKL_s54&sns=em

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJdERWwJ8l0&sns=em

Thanks for any feedback!

I agree with what most others have said. He doesn't bring his hands back and in, (load), he doesn't start the lower half before the top, and he doesn't drive his backside through.

Read this;

[mudvnine]

Notice in the first three frames that his hands stayed behind or at the original red line while the lower half was moving/turning forward.....that is "separation"..........and that they (the hands) didn't come forward until they were pulled into play by that lower half.

[Jslo]

That is really cool, great analysis. I'm working with him now to incorporate some kind of front leg load/kick timing mechanism. I think it will help him "get back" (load) and not dip forward as the first move when the pitch is coming. It will set him up to other correct fundamental things.

[omg]

There is another way for a hitter to improve as opposed to the let's look at video, let's tinker with the swing, let's apply the latest theory/analysis to the swing,let's review rotational (or whatever) theory, let's repeat this process over and over, etc.

It's called the "go out on a field and throw your son/player batting practice method." Or go to a commercial cage. Let player hit. Say little.Give compliments. Be patient. Repeat over and over.

[Jslo]

Yes, today was just soft toss and t work. I encouraged him alot to just try a leg lift for timing. To work on getting back (If you dont have your hips coming back, how can you have them go forward through?)

I think he is doing alot better, you all have helped a ton he is totally fired up and said he can feel the difference in pop in the swing and at contact. Feels he is hitting with more authority when he gets back. Here is a clip, I think swing 1 and 4 he does lift, but its a cheating lift ie he lifts but leans fwd to compensate. Swings 2 and 3 he lifts and compensates by rotating more back than down...thus allowing him to rotate through with the hips and keeping the hands back, working on seperation. This has been amazingly helpful to have other eyes on his swing.

[Jake Patterson]

Yes, today was just soft toss and t work. I encouraged him alot to just try a leg lift for timing. To work on getting back (If you dont have your hips coming back, how can you have them go forward through?)

I think he is doing alot better, you all have helped a ton he is totally fired up and said he can feel the difference in pop in the swing and at contact. Feels he is hitting with more authority when he gets back. Here is a clip, I think swing 1 and 4 he does lift, but its a cheating lift ie he lifts but leans fwd to compensate. Swings 2 and 3 he lifts and compensates by rotating more back than down...thus allowing him to rotate through with the hips and keeping the hands back, working on seperation. This has been amazingly helpful to have other eyes on his swing.

He has no load.

[jbooth]

There is another way for a hitter to improve as opposed to the let's look at video, let's tinker with the swing, let's apply the latest theory/analysis to the swing,let's review rotational (or whatever) theory, let's repeat this process over and over, etc.

It's called the "go out on a field and throw your son/player batting practice method." Or go to a commercial cage. Let player hit. Say little.Give compliments. Be patient. Repeat over and over.

That's just nonsense. Have you seen all the bad swings being made at cages? Do you see them improve? You don't get better just continuing to swing however you swing.
Repeating the same swing over and over and expecting to get better is insanity.