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Thread: BBF Mets franchise HOF round four

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjpm74 View Post
    If you want to use WAR as your primary judge of worthiness, so be it. You voted for at least two people in the last Phillies round who had less WAR or similar WAR to John Franco:

    Dan Casey 20.8
    Von Hayes 27.1

    That is pretty consistently inconsistent and keep in mind that Franco managed to accumulate more WAR than Dan Casey who was a SP who basically had one good year in the pre-modern pitching distance era.
    It's not as inconsistent as you suggest. First, since this is only in terms of performance for the franchise, I consider only the WAR for the franchise. Franco was at his best as a Red, but that's irrelevant to whether he belongs in the Met HOF. I also look at peak performance for the franchise. Casey and Hayes had almost all their value with the Phillies, and within a span of 5 consecutive seasons. Let's look at Franco, Casey and Hayes with my main measures. I'll also throw in the weakest reliever I voted for, Kent Tekulve of the Pirates:

    Franco
    career WAR with franchise 12.8
    best 3 seasons of WAR with franchise 5.2
    best 5 consecutive WAR with franchise 7.2

    Casey
    career WAR with franchise 20.6
    best 3 seasons of WAR with franchise 19.0
    best 5 consecutive WAR with franchise 20.6

    Hayes
    career WAR with franchise 24.8
    best 3 seasons of WAR with franchise 13.1
    best 5 consecutive WAR with franchise 17.8

    Tekulve
    career WAR with franchise 18.8
    best 3 seasons of WAR with franchise 9.7
    best 5 consecutive WAR with franchise 11.4
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  2. #22
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    Tommy Agee
    Wally Backman
    Gary Carter
    Len Dykstra
    Jerry Grote
    Bud Harrelson
    Ron Hunt
    Ed Kranepool
    Dave Magadan
    Lee Mazzilli
    Tug McGraw
    Jesse Orosco
    Rusty Staub
    John Stearns
    Mookie Wilson

    Last time I went with newer guys, this time I go with older guys, stopping around the late 80s.

  3. #23
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    For me I didn't vote for Franco b/c my recollection is of his latter years where he was excrutiating and seemingly incapable of a 1-2-3 inning. Also something about him wearing his Brooklyn on his sleeve or the media doing it just rubbed me the wrong way. Juvenile perhaps but I figured since I blabbed on other stuff I may as well put in my 2 cents.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by jalbright View Post
    Casey
    career WAR with franchise 20.6
    best 3 seasons of WAR with franchise 19.0
    best 5 consecutive WAR with franchise 20.6
    Dan Casey's career WAR with the Phillies franchise is 16.5. Not 20.6. His terrible batting accounts for a net loss of 4.1 when also factoring in his defense.

    Bad batting plus the benefit of a shorter pitching distance puts him comfortably behind Franco in terms of value to the franchise, IMO and we all know that WAR is very suspect when looking at 19th century pitchers as it overstates their value to a given franchise. Pitchers were used until their arms fell apart in that generation for a reason. They were seen as expendable and had to have both feet on the ground when they threw. It is also important to factor in the fact that the rules for pitchers were changing dramatically during Casey's short career and that side arm and overhand pitching were brand new when he debuted:

    PITCHING DISTANCE
    1863 - 45 ft. from front line of pitcher's box to rear of home plate
    1881 - 50 ft.
    1887 - 55.5 ft.
    1890 - 57 ft. (Player's League Only)
    1893 - 60.5 ft. (Present Day Distance)

    PITCHING MOTION
    1845 - Underhand and must keep wrist stiff
    1872 - Pitcher allowed to snap wrist making horizontal curve line
    1879 - Pitcher prohibited from turning his back completely to batter during delivery
    1884 - Side arm pitching motion allowed
    1885 - Overhand pitching motion allowed (NL Only), both feet on ground during delivery
    1887 - Pitcher must start delivery with one foot on back line of box
    Last edited by jjpm74; 02-09-2012 at 10:38 AM.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjpm74 View Post
    Okay, but you had some very questionable people on your Phillies ballots which is the team you are a fan of. It seems hypocritical to vote for the Philly Phanatic but ignore arguments for a person like John Franco or Ed Kranepool in a project that is obviously fan based and not numbers based. Do you really think that the people who own the Mets and operate the Mets HOF would elect someone who was not a significant part of NY Mets history?
    I didn't have time to respond about Kranepool earlier. If we look at the three elements of WAR I use, he can't even come close to Franco:
    career: 4.4
    top 3: 5.1
    top 5 consecutive: 4.7

    That's not impressive for an everyday player, to say the least. If we dig into the WAR at bb-ref, we find that he had only four seasons where his total runs above replacement were less than the run differential between average and replacement for a player with as much playing time as he had:
    1962 when both figures were 0 ( 6 PA);
    1971 when he had three more runs above replacement than average for his playing time;
    1975 when he had his highest total above replacement than average for his playing time, a whopping four runs; and
    1976 when he had two more runs above replacement than an average player for his playing time.

    All other seasons were below average by this measure. In other words, 1) it's being kind to say Kranepool was mediocre, and 2) Kranepool's one notable attribute was his ability to keep a job with the Mets. IMHO, putting Kranepool into the team HOF turns what should be an honor into a gold watch earned solely by a sufficient amount of playing time. I resolutely rrefuse to go there.

    BTW, how many players even close to the level of Kranepool's play have you supported for any other franchise?
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalbright View Post
    I didn't have time to respond about Kranepool earlier. If we look at the three elements of WAR I use, he can't even come close to Franco:
    career: 4.4
    top 3: 5.1
    top 5 consecutive: 4.7

    That's not impressive for an everyday player, to say the least. If we dig into the WAR at bb-ref, we find that he had only four seasons where his total runs above replacement were less than the run differential between average and replacement for a player with as much playing time as he had:
    1962 when both figures were 0 ( 6 PA);
    1971 when he had three more runs above replacement than average for his playing time;
    1975 when he had his highest total above replacement than average for his playing time, a whopping four runs; and
    1976 when he had two more runs above replacement than an average player for his playing time.

    All other seasons were below average by this measure. In other words, 1) it's being kind to say Kranepool was mediocre, and 2) Kranepool's one notable attribute was his ability to keep a job with the Mets. IMHO, putting Kranepool into the team HOF turns what should be an honor into a gold watch earned solely by a sufficient amount of playing time. I resolutely rrefuse to go there.

    BTW, how many players even close to the level of Kranepool's play have you supported for any other franchise?
    This is not mean to knock JJPM at all, but if you look at the Met board HOF (assuming you have 800 spare hours to kill) you will see fellows like Ron Hodges in there. I cannot quite explain it but some sort of spirit of 1962 lovable losers permeates and I cannot say I have been completely unaffected. Part of Kranepool's mystique is the coming straight out of HS in NYC in 1962 and lasting til around 1980. Would he be more or less = to Tom Hutton on the Phillies?

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by jalbright View Post
    BTW, how many players even close to the level of Kranepool's play have you supported for any other franchise?
    It depends on which statistic you are asking about. I haven't been using WAR for this project. I've been mostly relying on all time leader categories for a given franchise, whether or not they are in their team's HOF, etc...

    My focus, though is on John Franco and you really haven't given much of an argument as to what makes a 19th century hurler who's WAR with the Phillies is a whopping 3.8 points away from Franco's with the Mets more valuable than someone who was a fan favorite, played in the modern era, was regarded as a team leader, and is in that franchise's actual Hall of fame beyond saying that you don't like relievers (unless they happen to play for the Phillies).
    Last edited by jjpm74; 02-09-2012 at 02:13 PM.

  8. #28
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    You are running away from Kranepool, as well you might. I didn't vote for Tugger for either the Phils or Mets, and I loved the guy. Tekulve played late in his career for the Phils, but he was significantly better than Franco--and popular with the Pirate fans, to all I ever saw. He's the bottom of the level of reliever I want to vote for. If you don't like Casey, fine. If I have to choose between either voting for both Franco and Casey or voting for neither, I'd prefer to vote for neither, as Casey was a borderline case for me. If Franco had been as good with the Mets as Tekulve was for the Pirates, I'd vote for him. He wasn't, and I won't. As it stands, whether I do or don't vote for him, he won't get elected anyway, in part because some Met fans in this project left him off their ballots also.

    I will also note that part of my argument for Casey dealt with the peak. Casey concentrated his contribution, which Franco did not. Casey's peak is superior to Franco's IMHO, and that is enough for me to put him in and Franco out. If you don't like that approach, you have a right to your opinion, just as I have a right to mine.

    BTW, I don't like the insinuation about Phillie relievers. It's beneath you. By way of further reply, please name a Phillie reliever I voted for other than Tekulve, whom I voted for only in the Pirate election.
    Last edited by jalbright; 02-09-2012 at 02:24 PM.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by PVNICK View Post
    This is not mean to knock JJPM at all, but if you look at the Met board HOF (assuming you have 800 spare hours to kill) you will see fellows like Ron Hodges in there. I cannot quite explain it but some sort of spirit of 1962 lovable losers permeates and I cannot say I have been completely unaffected. Part of Kranepool's mystique is the coming straight out of HS in NYC in 1962 and lasting til around 1980. Would he be more or less = to Tom Hutton on the Phillies?
    The 1962, 1969 and 1986 Mets seem to get the most attention from the fans of the team.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by PVNICK View Post
    This is not mean to knock JJPM at all, but if you look at the Met board HOF (assuming you have 800 spare hours to kill) you will see fellows like Ron Hodges in there. I cannot quite explain it but some sort of spirit of 1962 lovable losers permeates and I cannot say I have been completely unaffected. Part of Kranepool's mystique is the coming straight out of HS in NYC in 1962 and lasting til around 1980. Would he be more or less = to Tom Hutton on the Phillies?
    The closest comparison I can see to Kranepool's nearly 6000 PA is Tony Taylor. Now, Tony was a versatile infielder, but he played a long time in Philly, hustled and was popular--but nothing more than a nice player to have around. He had 11.9 career WAR in Philly, 8.2 in his best three years, and 6.2 in his best 5 consecutive. That's way better than Kranepool.

    I did see the Met HOF here at BBF, but when I saw how many guys they had elected (IIRC it was at least 40), I lost my interest in using that as a measuring stick.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by jalbright View Post
    You are running away from Kranepool, as well you might.
    You are the one who brought up Tekulve. He played for the Phillies, right? By your own admission, he was the weakest reliever you voted for, right?

    I'm not running away from anyone. I simply explained that I am not relying on WAR in this project. PVNick already summed up why Kranepool gets so much attention with this franchise and this isn't the first time, nor will it be the last that someone gets extra attention for longevity with a franchise or in the game itself, depending on the topic/project. Buck O'Neil, the king of being mediocre at a lot of things for a very long time, has an award named after him for this.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by jalbright View Post
    I did see the Met HOF here at BBF, but when I saw how many guys they had elected (IIRC it was at least 40), I lost my interest in using that as a measuring stick.
    Here is the official Mets Hall of Fame:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Mets_Hall_of_Fame

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjpm74 View Post
    Here is the official Mets Hall of Fame:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Mets_Hall_of_Fame
    Franco is only one of seven in that Hall I don't support, along with Staub, Grote, McGraw, Mookie Wilson, G. Carter, Agee (leaving out Harrelson, who also coached for the team).

    Update: I should have said eight, as I left out Kranepool.
    Last edited by jalbright; 02-10-2012 at 04:44 AM.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by jalbright View Post
    Franco is only one of seven in that Hall I don't support, along with Staub, Grote, McGraw, Mookie Wilson, G. Carter, Agee (leaving out Harrelson, who also coached for the team).
    McGraw and Grote are key figures associated with the Amazin' Mets. Agee had two catches that made him a local hero. Carter and Wilson were key players in 1986. Staub made his mark in the 1973 post season. When you have a team that has basically stunk since their inception, the players associated with the team's few successful years tend to get amplified.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjpm74 View Post
    McGraw and Grote are key figures associated with the Amazin' Mets. Agee had two catches that made him a local hero. Carter and Wilson were key players in 1986. Staub made his mark in the 1973 post season. When you have a team that has basically stunk since their inception, the players associated with the team's few successful years tend to get amplified.
    That pretty much sums things up.

  16. #36
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    One day left, and I suspect this will be the last go for this franchise before the second chance and actives/recent retirees elections.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  17. #37
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    This election is concluded, but due to a family emergency, I can't promise whether I'll be able to post the results before next weekend.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  18. #38
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    The Mets had 11 votes, but no one got 75% (9 votes). The franchise now moves into the group which has second chance and/or recent retiree rounds yet to go. Here are the official results:

    8 Wilson, Mookie
    7 Carter, Gary
    7 Franco, John
    7 Harrelson, Bud
    6 Stearnes, John
    5 Grote, Jerry
    5 McGraw, Tug
    5 Orosco, Jesse
    4 Staub, Rusty
    3 Agee, Tommy
    3 Kranepool, Ed
    3 Mazzilli, Lee
    3 McReynolds, Kevin
    2 Backman, Wally
    2 Dykstra, Lenny
    2 Glavine, Tom
    2 Hunt, Ron
    2 Magadan, Dave
    2 Olerud, John
    1 Benitez, Armando
    1 Bonilla, Bobby
    1 Brooks, Hubie
    1 Foster, George
    1 Garrett, Wayne
    1 Hundley, Todd
    1 Reed, Rick
    1 Viola, Frank
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

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