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Thread: BBF Mets franchise HOF round four

  1. #1
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    BBF Mets franchise HOF round four

    This election will close on February 18, 2012, at 7:00 a.m EST.

    This is the third round for this franchise. The previous round is here


    We inducted the following players:
    Edgardo Alfonso
    David Cone
    Ron Darling
    Sid Fernandez
    Dwight Gooden
    Keith Hernandez
    Howard Johnson
    Cleon Jones
    Jerry Koosman
    Al Leiter
    Jon Matlack
    Mike Piazza
    Tom Seaver
    Darryl Strawberry


    PLEASE READ THE FORMAT AND RULES SECTION BEFORE VOTING. THANK YOU.

    FORMAT AND RULES

    Purpose: The purpose of this project is to create a Hall of Fame for each franchise whereby each franchise will honor those individuals whose contributions and accomplishments are most notable, significant, and enduring to that franchise's history. This project is not about simply honoring those with the best statistics with each franchise.

    Standards: Each franchise has its own unique history and context, and thus contributions and accomplishments that may stand out remarkably within one franchise's history, may not be so remarkable in another franchise's history. Standards from franchise to franchise will inherently vary, and thus there should be no impetus to create equal standards among the franchises or to aspire to the standards of the National Baseball Hall of Fame. Consequently, subjectivity within the context of the franchise in question will play an inevitable role when considering an individual's contributions and accomplishments with respect to that franchise. In sum, a franchise's Hall of Fame should be unaffected by the standards and contexts of other franchises as well as the National Baseball Hall of Fame, and should be entirely a product of its own history.

    Election Format: Elections will be conducted one franchise at a time starting in chronological order with the oldest continuously and currently operational franchise. Each election will last approximately five days.
    - Ballot Size: Voters can select up to 15 players and 5 contributors per election. There is no minimum ballot size.
    - Ballot Editing: To account for ongoing discussion, voters may edit their ballots as often as necessary through the end of an election.
    - Election Percentage: Any individual that is listed on at least 75% of either the player or contributor submitted ballots will be elected to that team's Hall of Fame. In instances where an individual receive votes as both a player and a contributor, that individual will be elected if listed on at least 75% of ballots in either category or if the individual's combined vote total is at least 75% of the category with the greatest number of ballots submitted. However, a minimum of six votes is required to elect anyone.
    - Subsequent Rounds: After an election has been performed for each franchise, a second round of elections will commence, again proceeding in chronological order. A third round of elections (and perhaps beyond) may also be held depending on interest.

    Eligibility:
    - Players: Players may be considered by any currently operational franchise for which they appeared and are eligible either immediately upon officially retiring or after having not appeared at any level of professional baseball for an entire season for reasons not due to injury.
    - Contributors: Individuals that contributed in other capacities to a franchise may be considered, including managers, coaches, executives, owners, and broadcasters. Mascots are eligible. Contributors that are still active may only be elected by their current employing franchise, and cannot be considered by prior employing franchises until no longer active (this does not apply to individuals who are employed by a franchise only in nominal and/or non-integral ways, such as in scouting, consulting, or public relations capacities).
    - Multiple Capacities: The totality of contributions and accomplishments with respect to a franchise are to be considered, and thus an individual can only be elected once by a franchise. For purposes of ballot size limits, an individual should be designated either a player or contributor based on what the voter perceives to be the individual's greater role with the franchise. An individual should not be listed as either a player or contributor merely to facilitate ballot space for the other category.
    - Relocations/Renaming: Franchises that have relocated and/or been renamed, may still consider and elect individuals that were with the franchise prior to the relocation/renaming.
    - Multiple Franchises: An individual may be considered and elected by multiple franchises.

    Franchise History
    - Founded: 1962 (NL for entire existence)
    - Former Locations/Names:

    Titles
    - World Series Championships: 2 (1969, 1986)
    - Pennants: 4 (1969, 1973, 1986, 2000)
    - Division Titles: 5 (1969, 1973, 1986, 1988, 2006)
    - Wild Card Berths: 2 (1999, 2000)

    Helpful Links
    The following links are all courtesy of baseball-reference.com, baseball-almanac.com, and wikipedia.com, and may assist voters in determining an individual's impact on this franchise:
    - Franchise Almanac
    - All Batters
    - All Pitchers
    - Batting Leaders
    - Pitching Leaders
    - Most Common Positional Starters
    - Most Common Pitching Staff Alignments
    - Managers
    - Notable Owners and Executives
    - Notable Broadcasters

    Award Recipients
    - MVP Recipients (0):

    - Cy Young Recipients (4): Dwight Gooden (1985), Tom Seaver (1975), Tom Seaver (1973), Tom Seaver (1969)

    - RoY Recipients (4): Dwight Gooden (1984), Darryl Strawberry (1983), Jon Matlack (1972), Tom Seaver (1967)

    - Batting Triple Crown (0):

    - Pitching Triple Crown (1): Dwight Gooden (1985)

    Multiple All Star Selections (no adjustment for double selections for 1959-1962)
    Code:
    Rank 	Player			Selections
    1	Tom Seaver		9
    t2	Mike Piazza		7
    t2	Darryl Strawberry	7
    4	David Wright*		5
    t5	Carlos Beltran*		4
    t5	Gary Carter		4
    t5	Dwight Gooden		4
    t5	John Stearns		4
    t9	Keith Hernandez		3
    t9	Jon Matlack		3
    t9	Jose Reyes*		3
    t12	Richie Ashburn		2
    t12	Bobby Bonilla		2
    t12	David Cone		2
    t12	Sid Fernandez		2
    t12	Tom Glavine		2
    t12	Jerry Grote		2
    t12	Bud Harrelson		2
    t12	Todd Hundley		2
    t12	Ron Hunt		2
    t12	Howard Johnson		2
    t12	Jerry Koosman		2
    t12	Pedro Martinez		2
    t12	Willie Mays		2
    t12	Jesse Orosco		2
    t12	Rick Reed		2
    t12	Frank Viola		2
    t12	Billy Wagner		2
    
    * Player is currently active
    Notable Managers (with at least 300 games managed with this franchise or at least one pennant win)
    Code:
    Manager			Games		Win %	WS Titles	Pennants	Div Titles	Wild Cards
    Yogi Berra		588		.497
    Dallas Green		512		.447			1		1
    Gil Hodges		649		.523	1		1		1
    Art Howe		323		.424
    Davey Johnson		1012		.588	1		1		2
    Jerry Manuel		417		.489
    Willie Randolph		555		.544			1
    Casey Stengel		582		.302
    Joe Torre		709		.405
    Bobby Valentine		1003		.534			1				2
    Wes Westrum		380		.375
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  2. #2
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    My ballot:

    John Stearns
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  3. #3
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    Gary Carter
    John Franco
    Bud Harrelson
    Kevin McReynolds
    Jesse Orosco
    John Stearns
    Mookie Wilson
    "It ain't braggin' if you can do it!" Dizzy Dean

    "The last guy who ran as badly as Bill Buckner was Long John Silver." Mark Heisler, sportswriter

    "I'm getting by on three pitches now - a curve, a change-up, and whatever you want to call that thing that used to be a fastball." Frank Tanana

  4. #4
    My first thought is that an expansion team with a 50 year history doesn't merit 4 rounds of HOF voting. I'll take a look at the eligibles and decide whether I'll cast a vote.

  5. #5
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    Players
    Lenny Dykstra
    John Franco
    Wayne Garrett
    Tom Glavine
    Jerry Grote
    Bud Harrelson
    Dave Magadan
    Lee Mazzilli
    Tug McGraw
    Kevin McReynolds
    John Olerud
    Jesse Orosco
    Rick Reed
    John Stearns
    Mookie Wilson
    *** Submit your personal HOF as your ballot for the Single Ballot BBF Hall of Fame! ***

  6. #6
    Once again on John Franco:

    I'd like to remind everyone voting for this franchise that John Franco was elected to the NY Mets Hall of Fame this year:

    Read here for more.

    Another article that shows just how important Franco is to his fans.

    This guy was the heart and soul of the Mets for 14 years. For a project like this, it is important to not just crunch numbers and think about the role a given player had for a given franchise and the impact he had as a leader and to fans of the team who were the ones who watched and cheered for him every day.

    For the stat minded, John Franco is one of the all time saves leaders and put up an impressive career as a closer.

    The fact that he is not getting better support at this time is one of the shortfalls of having a team based HOF project outside of the team's forum.

  7. #7
    Players:

    Tommy Agee
    Wally Backman
    Hubie Brooks
    Gary Carter
    George Foster
    John Franco
    Jerry Grote
    Bud Harrelson
    Ed Kranepool
    Lee Mazzili
    Tug McGraw
    Kevin McReynolds
    Rusty Staub
    Mookie Wilson

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigRon View Post
    My first thought is that an expansion team with a 50 year history doesn't merit 4 rounds of HOF voting. I'll take a look at the eligibles and decide whether I'll cast a vote.
    You can post a blank ballot to express that opinion if you wish. Just make it clear that it is an intentionally blank ballot. I think such a stance is quite defensible at this point, and as you can see from my ballot, I'm very close to taking that stance myself, as I named only Stearns.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  9. #9
    Tommie Agee
    Armando Benitez
    Bobby Bonilla
    Gary Carter
    John Franco
    Tom Glavine
    Jerry Grote
    Bud Harrelson
    Todd Hundley
    Ron Hunt
    John Olerud
    Jesse Orosco
    John Stearns
    Frank Viola
    Mookie Wilson

  10. #10
    Mookie Wilson

  11. #11
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    We have six voters so far, enough to elect someone if there was total agreement on a candidate (there isn't). If they get two more votes, there's some chance they could go on--but looking at the current tallies, I suspect this is the last round for this franchise.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  12. #12
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    Carter
    Grote
    Harrelson
    McGraw
    Orosco
    Staub
    Mookie Wilson

  13. #13
    Gary Carter
    John Franco
    Bud Harrelson
    Ed Kranepool
    Tug McGraw
    Rusty Staub
    John Stearnes
    Mookie Wilson

    I can see BigRon's point, but I believe we've have overlooked some pretty important players to the Mets' history.

  14. #14
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    Gary Carter
    John Franco
    Ed Kranepool

    I posted this last time, but unfortunatley at the end of the election, and seem to have picked up on this one late, too, so may be making the same mistake, but here is my plea for Kranepool - I'm surprised he is getting so little support. He was certainly not a superstar, but he was on the Mets every year in the 60's and 70's. I would never vote a player into Cooperstown based solely on longevity, but it is something special for a player to be on one team so long. And with his 97 career OPS+, he wasn't as bad as he is sometimes remembered (granted, you want more from your IB/OF, but this isn't just about stats). Due to my age i didn't really start following baseball until the late 70's, but I can't think of the first two decades of the Mets without including Kranepool. Through 5the Mets 50 years of existence, he is still their all time leader in hits, games played and at-bats, second in total bases and doubles, and top 10 in runs, triples, RBIs and homeruns. While that might be more indicitive of the anemic Mets offense over the years, someone that high up on all their leaderboards deserves to be in the team hall of fame.

  15. #15
    FWIW, I think that all three of the people you are voting for have the strongest cases for inclusion who have not yet been elected. I'm surprised by the lack of support for Kranepool.

  16. #16
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    I know what standards I'm looking for, but I don't think it's outlandish for voters to expect several all-star type years or a MVP/Cy Young type year (especially the Cleon Jones model--in a surprise World Series year). Carter was a four time all-star with the Mets. Now, that arguably has something to do with 1) his reputation, and 2) his competition in the NL for a catching slot. Even so, he was a 4 time all-star. Franco was a one time all-star for the franchise, but closers are a bit limited, so perhaps that can be forgiven. Kranepool, though was only a one time all-star in 1965--probably the Met representative in a day when every team had at least one all-star. If you look at Kranepool's WAR, he never had a season as good as 2 WAR--and five is all-star level. In fact, his career WAR is 4.4. At that level of play, I don't care how long Kranepool was a Met. I'm not a Met fan, and I'm not going to get a largely emotionally based case--and one of the prices this project exacts is that those types of casesfor players are exceedingly tough to succeed with. All that said, if they fail again and you want to try one last time in the second chance (or VC?) opportunity for the franchise, you are welcome to do so.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by jalbright View Post
    I know what standards I'm looking for, but I don't think it's outlandish for voters to expect several all-star type years or a MVP/Cy Young type year (especially the Cleon Jones model--in a surprise World Series year). Carter was a four time all-star with the Mets. Now, that arguably has something to do with 1) his reputation, and 2) his competition in the NL for a catching slot. Even so, he was a 4 time all-star. Franco was a one time all-star for the franchise, but closers are a bit limited, so perhaps that can be forgiven. Kranepool, though was only a one time all-star in 1965--probably the Met representative in a day when every team had at least one all-star. If you look at Kranepool's WAR, he never had a season as good as 2 WAR--and five is all-star level. In fact, his career WAR is 4.4. At that level of play, I don't care how long Kranepool was a Met. I'm not a Met fan, and I'm not going to get a largely emotionally based case--and one of the prices this project exacts is that those types of casesfor players are exceedingly tough to succeed with. All that said, if they fail again and you want to try one last time in the second chance (or VC?) opportunity for the franchise, you are welcome to do so.
    Okay, but you had some very questionable people on your Phillies ballots which is the team you are a fan of. It seems hypocritical to vote for the Philly Phanatic but ignore arguments for a person like John Franco or Ed Kranepool in a project that is obviously fan based and not numbers based. Do you really think that the people who own the Mets and operate the Mets HOF would elect someone who was not a significant part of NY Mets history?

  18. #18
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    Think what you will. I've stated my reasoning, and my vote will stay as it is.

    I will say that the standards I used for Phillie players were precisely the same as I'm using for the Mets. I've tried to use similar standards for contributors, but the truth is at that level personal knowledge can affect who one supports (or doesn't). By Saam was a very long time broadcaster of Phillie games, but I wasn't going to beef about nobody else joining me in supporting him. Had he drawn some more support, I might have tried to make a case for him.

    If you had my vote for Kranepool, that would make three--and you currently would need seven to get him elected. It's quite clear I'm hardly one of the few standing in his way. As for Franco, I haven't been very supportive of relievers in this project, and he suffers from that as have all other relievers.
    Last edited by jalbright; 02-09-2012 at 07:08 AM.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  19. #19
    I'll reluctantly cast a vote for 1 player:

    John Franco.

    I considered Orosco, who was effective, but I chose to vote for the guy who had a lot of identification with the Mets.

    I could definitely see not voting for anyone.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by jalbright View Post
    As for Franco, I haven't been very supportive of relievers in this project, and he suffers from that as have all other relievers.
    If you want to use WAR as your primary judge of worthiness, so be it. You voted for at least two people in the last Phillies round who had less WAR or similar WAR to John Franco:

    Dan Casey 20.8
    Von Hayes 27.1

    That is pretty consistently inconsistent and keep in mind that Franco managed to accumulate more WAR than Dan Casey who was a SP who basically had one good year in the pre-modern pitching distance era.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjpm74 View Post
    If you want to use WAR as your primary judge of worthiness, so be it. You voted for at least two people in the last Phillies round who had less WAR or similar WAR to John Franco:

    Dan Casey 20.8
    Von Hayes 27.1

    That is pretty consistently inconsistent and keep in mind that Franco managed to accumulate more WAR than Dan Casey who was a SP who basically had one good year in the pre-modern pitching distance era.
    It's not as inconsistent as you suggest. First, since this is only in terms of performance for the franchise, I consider only the WAR for the franchise. Franco was at his best as a Red, but that's irrelevant to whether he belongs in the Met HOF. I also look at peak performance for the franchise. Casey and Hayes had almost all their value with the Phillies, and within a span of 5 consecutive seasons. Let's look at Franco, Casey and Hayes with my main measures. I'll also throw in the weakest reliever I voted for, Kent Tekulve of the Pirates:

    Franco
    career WAR with franchise 12.8
    best 3 seasons of WAR with franchise 5.2
    best 5 consecutive WAR with franchise 7.2

    Casey
    career WAR with franchise 20.6
    best 3 seasons of WAR with franchise 19.0
    best 5 consecutive WAR with franchise 20.6

    Hayes
    career WAR with franchise 24.8
    best 3 seasons of WAR with franchise 13.1
    best 5 consecutive WAR with franchise 17.8

    Tekulve
    career WAR with franchise 18.8
    best 3 seasons of WAR with franchise 9.7
    best 5 consecutive WAR with franchise 11.4
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  22. #22
    Tommy Agee
    Wally Backman
    Gary Carter
    Len Dykstra
    Jerry Grote
    Bud Harrelson
    Ron Hunt
    Ed Kranepool
    Dave Magadan
    Lee Mazzilli
    Tug McGraw
    Jesse Orosco
    Rusty Staub
    John Stearns
    Mookie Wilson

    Last time I went with newer guys, this time I go with older guys, stopping around the late 80s.

  23. #23
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    For me I didn't vote for Franco b/c my recollection is of his latter years where he was excrutiating and seemingly incapable of a 1-2-3 inning. Also something about him wearing his Brooklyn on his sleeve or the media doing it just rubbed me the wrong way. Juvenile perhaps but I figured since I blabbed on other stuff I may as well put in my 2 cents.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by jalbright View Post
    Casey
    career WAR with franchise 20.6
    best 3 seasons of WAR with franchise 19.0
    best 5 consecutive WAR with franchise 20.6
    Dan Casey's career WAR with the Phillies franchise is 16.5. Not 20.6. His terrible batting accounts for a net loss of 4.1 when also factoring in his defense.

    Bad batting plus the benefit of a shorter pitching distance puts him comfortably behind Franco in terms of value to the franchise, IMO and we all know that WAR is very suspect when looking at 19th century pitchers as it overstates their value to a given franchise. Pitchers were used until their arms fell apart in that generation for a reason. They were seen as expendable and had to have both feet on the ground when they threw. It is also important to factor in the fact that the rules for pitchers were changing dramatically during Casey's short career and that side arm and overhand pitching were brand new when he debuted:

    PITCHING DISTANCE
    1863 - 45 ft. from front line of pitcher's box to rear of home plate
    1881 - 50 ft.
    1887 - 55.5 ft.
    1890 - 57 ft. (Player's League Only)
    1893 - 60.5 ft. (Present Day Distance)

    PITCHING MOTION
    1845 - Underhand and must keep wrist stiff
    1872 - Pitcher allowed to snap wrist making horizontal curve line
    1879 - Pitcher prohibited from turning his back completely to batter during delivery
    1884 - Side arm pitching motion allowed
    1885 - Overhand pitching motion allowed (NL Only), both feet on ground during delivery
    1887 - Pitcher must start delivery with one foot on back line of box
    Last edited by jjpm74; 02-09-2012 at 10:38 AM.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjpm74 View Post
    Okay, but you had some very questionable people on your Phillies ballots which is the team you are a fan of. It seems hypocritical to vote for the Philly Phanatic but ignore arguments for a person like John Franco or Ed Kranepool in a project that is obviously fan based and not numbers based. Do you really think that the people who own the Mets and operate the Mets HOF would elect someone who was not a significant part of NY Mets history?
    I didn't have time to respond about Kranepool earlier. If we look at the three elements of WAR I use, he can't even come close to Franco:
    career: 4.4
    top 3: 5.1
    top 5 consecutive: 4.7

    That's not impressive for an everyday player, to say the least. If we dig into the WAR at bb-ref, we find that he had only four seasons where his total runs above replacement were less than the run differential between average and replacement for a player with as much playing time as he had:
    1962 when both figures were 0 ( 6 PA);
    1971 when he had three more runs above replacement than average for his playing time;
    1975 when he had his highest total above replacement than average for his playing time, a whopping four runs; and
    1976 when he had two more runs above replacement than an average player for his playing time.

    All other seasons were below average by this measure. In other words, 1) it's being kind to say Kranepool was mediocre, and 2) Kranepool's one notable attribute was his ability to keep a job with the Mets. IMHO, putting Kranepool into the team HOF turns what should be an honor into a gold watch earned solely by a sufficient amount of playing time. I resolutely rrefuse to go there.

    BTW, how many players even close to the level of Kranepool's play have you supported for any other franchise?
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

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