Greatest Baserunner of All Time? A completely new take...

[CandlestickBum]

As I have shown several times now his base stealing rate was in line with league averages.

Don't confuse the issue with facts when people are busy making fact-oids to fit their opinions.

That's what modern USA is all about after all; making up stuff to fit preconcieved notions.
It's so widespread throughout the mainstream media, that it was only a matter of time when regular people started to ape them.
Don't like the color yellow? Make up something to make it bad, villainous even, like yellow dye is made from crushed puppies or something. Instant justification for hating yellow. Just constantly ignore anything to the contrary and you are set for life.

Now go throw out everything yellow in your closet, you puppy hating person you.

[bluesky5]

Yep, on padding....Rickey always ran... when it mattered....and often when it didn't. That's why he's 500 steals ahead of Brock.

Rickey was somewhat like like Pete Rose (or maybe Ichiro) with hits....procure as many as possible, regardless of whether it was pertinent to the outcome of the game. Ichiro bunted in a few situations in 04' when it was completely unwarranted and probably (on average) would have hurt his team's chances of winning. In 78', Rose (biggest ego, stat ***** in history) laid down a bunt in a situation to keep his steak alive. Later, when his streak got stopped at 44, the hick had the audacity/idiocy to complain that he wasn't getting enough good pitches/fastballs to hit. (As if the other team should have been catering to his own personal statistical pursuit.)

Is there a personal vendetta's thread?

[csh19792001]

As I have shown several times now his base stealing rate was in line with league averages.

Right, he ran regardless of the situation.

He also never hustled to stretch a double into a triple, or a single into a double, ala Hal McRae, George Brett, etc. Hence his pathetic doubles/triple totals (and rates) compared to other guys who are supposed to be "not in his universe" in baserunning ability.

[bluesky5]

I apologize it's taken me so log to respond, I look at this thread now and again and never saw this.

Henderson had 66 triples and stole 3rd base 322 times. That puts him on third 388 times.

Henderson had 510 doubles and stole 2nd base 1,080 times. That's putting himself on 2nd 1,590 times.

Barring Cobb, (whose exact stats we don't have) who was probabaly better at getting to 3rd and not quite as good at getting to second, Henderson has no equal or anyone who remotely comes close. The two stand alone far out of sight from whoever is #3 in using their running skills to put themselves in a position to score runs for their team.

BEING on third from a stretching a double into a triple and BEING on third from a double and a steal are the SAME. BEING on second from a stretching a single into a double and BEING on second from a walk / single and a steal are the SAME.

NO. THEY. ARE. NOT. By simple terminology we can see that a double is one base more than a single. -- A steal requires the possibility of a 1. pick-off and a caught stealing. 2. The batter has to either lay off the pitch or 3. swing to protect Rick, costing himself a strike, 4. or try to hit the ball on the ground behind the runner. 5. He can hit a hard liner or 6. ground the ball right to a fielder for a double play (if we talk stretching singles instead of doubles) 7. He may foul the ball off thus creating a strike for himself and 8. giving away the runners intent thus making it 9. easier to throw him out next pitch. That's CS, pick-off, DP's, strike, giving away strategy in exchange for what? A SB. Which is the same? As being in scoring position/3rd for the first pitch? Giving the batter a chance to swing more freely and hit to both sides of the diamond, hit a sac fly to score a run. The best thing that comes out of that is the batter gets the ball in a hole somewhere and Rickey moves 1st-3rd, maybe home, great. But he could have been on 2nd and given the batter a better chance to get a hit and not cost him a strike. If he is on third and made a run out of a fly ball out. This is baseball.

I'm pretty sure this is what goes thru csh19792001's head when he is trying to explain this. I never claimed Rick didn't always hustle either. I can't imagine him getting away with it under Martin to start his career. I only saw the tail end of Rick's career and saw what I perceived to be dogging it. Maybe it was just because of age. I really do not know. I see a selfish player, a likable guy, but a guy who would let up at times to pad his totals. He obviously didn't dog it during big games or we would have heard about it. But competitors want to win all games. There really is no place for not hustling. I can't quantify hustling, I can't tell you how many games Rick's teams won or lost because of it. But I can tell you there is no excuse for it.

Your a better stat man than I, drstrangeglove. What do you think about the guys csh19792001 mentioned as having half Rick's XBH totals?

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Right, he ran regardless of the situation.

He also never hustled to stretch a double into a triple, or a single into a double, ala Hal McRae, George Brett, etc. Hence his pathetic doubles/triple totals (and rates) compared to other guys who are supposed to be "not in his universe" in baserunning ability.

I agree with that, may have been the best at base stealing but his lack of hustle so evident
I don't agree with some calling that smart base running......I'll just take the double, why take a chance and get thrown out at third, absurd.
He was willing to take the chance on stealing, why not just get there in the first place, when it looks like you can make that extra base.

[csh19792001]

I apologize it's taken me so log to respond, I look at this thread now and again and never saw this.



NO. THEY. ARE. NOT. By simple terminology we can see that a double is one base more than a single. -- A steal requires the possibility of a 1. pick-off and a caught stealing. 2. The batter has to either lay off the pitch or 3. swing to protect Rick, costing himself a strike, 4. or try to hit the ball on the ground behind the runner. 5. He can hit a hard liner or 6. ground the ball right to a fielder for a double play (if we talk stretching singles instead of doubles) 7. He may foul the ball off thus creating a strike for himself and 8. giving away the runners intent thus making it 9. easier to throw him out next pitch. That's CS, pick-off, DP's, strike, giving away strategy in exchange for what? A SB. Which is the same? As being in scoring position/3rd for the first pitch? Giving the batter a chance to swing more freely and hit to both sides of the diamond, hit a sac fly to score a run. The best thing that comes out of that is the batter gets the ball in a hole somewhere and Rickey moves 1st-3rd, maybe home, great. But he could have been on 2nd and given the batter a better chance to get a hit and not cost him a strike. If he is on third and made a run out of a fly ball out. This is baseball.

I'm pretty sure this is what goes thru csh19792001's head when he is trying to explain this. I never claimed Rick didn't always hustle either. I can't imagine him getting away with it under Martin to start his career. I only saw the tail end of Rick's career and saw what I perceived to be dogging it. Maybe it was just because of age. I really do not know. I see a selfish player, a likable guy, but a guy who would let up at times to pad his totals. He obviously didn't dog it during big games or we would have heard about it. But competitors want to win all games. There really is no place for not hustling. I can't quantify hustling, I can't tell you how many games Rick's teams won or lost because of it. But I can tell you there is no excuse for it.

Your a better stat man than I, drstrangeglove. What do you think about the guys csh19792001 mentioned as having half Rick's XBH totals?

You said it SO MUCH BETTER than I ever have in this post. Thank you so much for composing this.

And WE can quantify hustling, albeit if somewhat indirectly. When a guy has the same number of career triples as dozens of guys with less than half his at bats, and half his speed, well, there's your evidence. Rickey was supposedly the fastest player in the game and "the best baserunner"...well, clearly, he was dogging it a good portion of the time, and CERTAINLY WAS NOT going all out on the paths those years. (And he was a line drive hitter, like Molitor, Yount, etc., to boot!!!)

His doubles rate, given his ridiculous number of AB's, the fact that he was a line drive (and not HR) hitters with unbelievable speed is also, frankly, pathetic. Rickey wasn't a guy leaving the box "thinking two", he was the lazy guy trotting into first half-assed. I watched him play hundreds of games, and this is how he played. He was known for being lax and, like Manny, having his mind elsewhere during games. When he used to play LF at Yankee Stadium, he would at times talk to fans in the first few rows during at bats.

The more I think about it, the more Rickey seems like the Manny of the generation prior.

[drstrangelove]

Right, he ran regardless of the situation.

He also never hustled to stretch a double into a triple, or a single into a double, ala Hal McRae, George Brett, etc. Hence his pathetic doubles/triple totals (and rates) compared to other guys who are supposed to be "not in his universe" in baserunning ability.

1) We posted facts on his stolen bases. Go ahead and just ignore them and state an unsupported opinion. Henderson's stolen base stats look JUST LIKE Coleman, Butler, Wilson, Raines, Bonds, etc. They all ran when it counted and didn't run when it didn't count. We posted the facts...why not simply reply to the FACTS and dispute them? (Answer: ignore facts that you can't refute and that prove you're wrong.)

2) Baseball does not give you SB when the team does not hold you on or try to throw you out. Teams do not hold you on or try to throw you out when the game is no longer on the line. By your own definiton then, he has NO SB when the game did not count.

3) You have already been shown exactly why Henderson has a low triples rate. Again, you will not respond to the facts given you, so continue to ignore them and repeat yourself.



Despite your belief that playing baseball makes you KNOW all there is to know about baseball (and btw many of us including me have played baseball above little league), it has nothing to do with the facts. I've quoted you several people who played above little league who go by the names of Fisk, Carter, LaRussa, Morgan, and Bill James. Maybe you think because you played baseball, you know more than them. You don't. I gave you quotes from THEM about Henderson, so reply to that post please and explain why you know more than them.

Or continue to ignore that and post more of the same.

[drstrangelove]

I apologize it's taken me so log to respond, I look at this thread now and again and never saw this.



NO. THEY. ARE. NOT. By simple terminology we can see that a double is one base more than a single. -- A steal requires the possibility of a 1. pick-off and a caught stealing. 2. The batter has to either lay off the pitch or 3. swing to protect Rick, costing himself a strike, 4. or try to hit the ball on the ground behind the runner. 5. He can hit a hard liner or 6. ground the ball right to a fielder for a double play (if we talk stretching singles instead of doubles) 7. He may foul the ball off thus creating a strike for himself and 8. giving away the runners intent thus making it 9. easier to throw him out next pitch. That's CS, pick-off, DP's, strike, giving away strategy in exchange for what? A SB. Which is the same? As being in scoring position/3rd for the first pitch? Giving the batter a chance to swing more freely and hit to both sides of the diamond, hit a sac fly to score a run. The best thing that comes out of that is the batter gets the ball in a hole somewhere and Rickey moves 1st-3rd, maybe home, great. But he could have been on 2nd and given the batter a better chance to get a hit and not cost him a strike. If he is on third and made a run out of a fly ball out. This is baseball.

I'm pretty sure this is what goes thru csh19792001's head when he is trying to explain this. I never claimed Rick didn't always hustle either. I can't imagine him getting away with it under Martin to start his career. I only saw the tail end of Rick's career and saw what I perceived to be dogging it. Maybe it was just because of age. I really do not know. I see a selfish player, a likable guy, but a guy who would let up at times to pad his totals. He obviously didn't dog it during big games or we would have heard about it. But competitors want to win all games. There really is no place for not hustling. I can't quantify hustling, I can't tell you how many games Rick's teams won or lost because of it. But I can tell you there is no excuse for it.

Your a better stat man than I, drstrangeglove. What do you think about the guys csh19792001 mentioned as having half Rick's XBH totals?

First, as far as scoring runs are concerned, which is what most of us (not all of us) use to judge the talent and contributions of a player....yes, being on second from a 2 base error, a walk and a steal, a HB plus a balk, a stretched single into a double.....are all the same. You are on second....how you got there does not matter.

Second, you have a lot of scenarios that explain why being on first and trying to steal second are not good. I'm not going to say that some of it does not have some truth in it. But, it was not comprehensive. You have missed the fact that pitchers throw more fastballs when a good base stealer is on base, that pitchers lose concentration and rhythm while great baserunners are on base, that inflelders are more out of position when a great base runner is on base, that pitchouts can give the batter a free "ball" in the count, etc. No one knows what your scenarios or mine work out to in the long run. But....there are teams and players that have been stealing bases since the 1800's. Are we to conclude that some people in this thread now believe that all the base stealing of the last 130 years was stupid?

Third, I posted what other players and managers who ACTUALLY play and manage in the major leagues. Apparently they think great baserunners should steal bases. Apparently, if it HURT the team, then train loads of MLB managers would be telling us that, but instead there are people stealing bases in baseball all the time.

Fourth, the jist of my posts are not that taking an extra base on a hit is bad. It's that taking an extra base is done in many ways as a baserunner. I used Musial as an example (because he played a super long career, was recognized as a smart / agressive runner, and had tons of doubles and triples, but obviously lacked foot speed.) The stats show that Henderson took FIVE TIMES as many bases running as Musial took. Unless you think that taking second on a single, creates 5x as many runs as walking and stealing second, then it's clear who was the better baserunner.

[drstrangelove]

You said it SO MUCH BETTER than I ever have in this post. Thank you so much for composing this.

And WE can quantify hustling, albeit if somewhat indirectly. When a guy has the same number of career triples as dozens of guys with less than half his at bats, and half his speed, well, there's your evidence. Rickey was supposedly the fastest player in the game and "the best baserunner"...well, clearly, he was dogging it a good portion of the time, and CERTAINLY WAS NOT going all out on the paths those years. (And he was a line drive hitter, like Molitor, Yount, etc., to boot!!!)

His doubles rate, given his ridiculous number of AB's, the fact that he was a line drive (and not HR) hitters with unbelievable speed is also, frankly, pathetic. Rickey wasn't a guy leaving the box "thinking two", he was the lazy guy trotting into first half-assed. I watched him play hundreds of games, and this is how he played. He was known for being lax and, like Manny, having his mind elsewhere during games. When he used to play LF at Yankee Stadium, he would at times talk to fans in the first few rows during at bats.

The more I think about it, the more Rickey seems like the Manny of the generation prior.

The only SINGLE fact you have offered to support your view on Henderson was his triples rate, which Ubiquitous comprehensively explained and debunked.

You have offered opinions on his steal rate (debunked), his "padding" (debunked), his contributions as a baserunner (debunked), and lots of personal opinions about his personality.

[csh19792001]

How you got there does not matter.

Boy, you sure said it all with those few words.

The pathetic thing is those who don't even care HOW things happened, just what the statistical ledger states happened- the cold, hard data. Vis-a-vis your ostensible ethos about baseball, why even bother watching games? Why does it matter how a guy got to second? Why do things like hustle matter? Why should everything qualitative be important!? Eschew it all!!

Just look at boxscores! Why would people actually need to see guys to play to see HOW things happened!!?? How tragically myopic. You are missing more than you'll ever know by being so horribly reductive in your analytical, linear, two dimensional approach.

I guess this is endemic (pandemic) to dealing with internet/spreadsheet baseball fans who don't understand or care about the game on a personal, visceral, experiential level. And probably never played it seriously, so...that figures, we suppose...

[csh19792001]

The only SINGLE fact you have offered to support your view on Henderson was his triples rate, which Ubiquitous comprehensively explained and debunked.

Well, welcome back, Savoy.....or whichever screen name you're spewing from at the moment.

Tell all of us how "Ubiquitous" "comprehensively debunked" and explained away Rickey's pathetic triples rate.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Lets face it, there wre times whn Rickey just decided to not go for the extra base when it looked like he could.
I know what 'Im going to hear........who am I to tell Rickey how to run the bases.
There were times even with the young Rickey when some were critical of his base running, did not appear to be going all out. He was times, appeared to be loafing and I agree.

[GiambiJuice]

The way I see it, Henderson was a great baserunner in the same way that Vince Carter or Allen Iverson were great scorers. High volume of shots made, but not as efficient as they could have been if they'd focused on winning, playing defense, etc. and not personal points totals.

Rickey had the talent, the speed, and the baseball smarts to be a great baserunner, but he cared more about being a prolific base stealer. One thing that can be said about his obsession with racking up steals and runs totals and disregarding other areas of the game, is that it probably, ironically, made him a better baseball player. One thing Rickey did as well as anyone, which he doesn't get enough credit for, is draw walks. Tons of walks. And he was taking all these pitches and drawing all these walks before it was "cool" to do so. He was a monster at getting to first base, because that is what his focus was: Let me get to first base so that I can steal second, and then steal third. In the process he had a career OBP over .400, which is remarkable given the length of his career, the mediocrity of his batting average, and the fact that the last thing any pitcher wanted to do was give him first base for free.

[SHOELESSJOE3]

As Yankee fan taking in many games when Rickey played for them, I can tell you he gave all the appearance of...........If I feel like going all out on this day, I'll do it, if not I won't
The idea, the notion that he was playing for the team, not risking getting thrown out going for the exra base, that one won't fly. Although one of the best there were many times when it was all about Rickey, not the team.

[csh19792001]

The way I see it, Henderson was a great baserunner in the same way that Vince Carter or Allen Iverson were great scorers. High volume of shots made, but not as efficient as they could have been if they'd focused on winning, playing defense, etc. and not personal points totals.

Perfect analogies. Extremely astute observations, Mr. GiambiJuice!

Rickey had the talent, the speed, and the baseball smarts to be a great baserunner, but he cared more about being a prolific base stealer.

"The Rickey Crouch" will be burned in our memories forever. How many walks did he draw from that artificially small strike zone? At least 1000.

Absolutely....Rickey had all the talent and speed in the world, and could have been a much better base runner, had he been less obsessed with himself and his own stats (mainly SB totals).

[csh19792001]

As Yankee fan taking in many games when Rickey played for them, I can tell you he gave all the appearance of...........If I feel like going all out on this day, I'll do it, if not I won't.

The idea, the notion that he was playing for the team, not risking getting thrown out going for the exra base, that one won't fly. Although one of the best there were many times when it was all about Rickey, not the team.

Great post, Joe. I agree...and we both watched Rickey for god knows how many games....

Again, Manny Ramirez is resounding in my brain!!!!

[csh19792001]

Typical stat donk/"internet troll" poster riposte:

"BEING on third from a stretching a double into a triple and BEING on third from a double and a steal are the SAME. BEING on second from a stretching a single into a double and BEING on second from a walk / single and a steal are the SAME."

NO. THEY. ARE. NOT. By simple terminology we can see that a double is one base more than a single. -- A steal requires the possibility of a 1. pick-off and a caught stealing. 2. The batter has to either lay off the pitch or 3. swing to protect Rick, costing himself a strike, 4. or try to hit the ball on the ground behind the runner. 5. He can hit a hard liner or 6. ground the ball right to a fielder for a double play (if we talk stretching singles instead of doubles) 7. He may foul the ball off thus creating a strike for himself and 8. giving away the runners intent thus making it 9. easier to throw him out next pitch. That's CS, pick-off, DP's, strike, giving away strategy in exchange for what? A SB. Which is the same? As being in scoring position/3rd for the first pitch? Giving the batter a chance to swing more freely and hit to both sides of the diamond, hit a sac fly to score a run. The best thing that comes out of that is the batter gets the ball in a hole somewhere and Rickey moves 1st-3rd, maybe home, great. But he could have been on 2nd and given the batter a better chance to get a hit and not cost him a strike. If he is on third and made a run out of a fly ball out. This is baseball.

This post should be canonized. It may be THE archetypal "anti internet/spreadsheet fan" post. "I played baseball and actually understand it, as it is played, versus, "I look at stats ex post facto, and pontificate based on those stats, which tell only a fraction of the story."

Could you please recruit some of your buds, who actually PLAYED BASEBALL, to come here and post? Bring some reality and parity to this denizen?

Thanks in advance!!

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Lets face it, there wre times whn Rickey just decided to not go for the extra base when it looked like he could.
I know what 'Im going to hear........who am I to tell Rickey how to run the bases.
There were times even with the young Rickey when some were critical of his base running, did not appear to be going all out. He was times, appeared to be loafing and I agree.

I guess it comes down down to perspective. Throughout his career, Rickey had his supporters and detractors. I saw Ricky play a lot in the 1980's. He was an exciting and productive player. He did loaf on the field as well. I saw that, too. As far back as 1984, his own manager tried to get Rickey to run less in certain situations. From Sports Illustrated May 7, 1984.

Henderson's Dilemma
In 1983 the A's Rickey Henderson hit .292 with 103 walks and had 108 stolen bases in 127 attempts. But now, manager Steve Bows wants Henderson to make some changes in his game, and Henderson doesn't like it.

"They're asking a guy to do everything," Henderson says. "I just don't understand it, a ballplayer of my caliber who's been doing great."

What Boros wants from Henderson is fewer steals of third base with none out or two out, and more pop from his bat. He thinks Henderson, a well-built 195-pounder, should be more conscious of "turning" on fastballs when the count is in his favor. "Perhaps," Boros says, "he shouldn't think as much about walks. I believe Rickey has the ability to hit 20 homers and drive in 70 runs and steal 100 bases."

"I think [changing] takes away from our team," Henderson replies, "and I don't think I can help our ball club better than the way I was doing it."

And Rickey did rub teammates the wrong way as well. From Sports Illustrated Baseball Preview on the NY Yankees (April 15, 1985):

Fleet of foot, sure, but that's only one aspect of new pinstriper Rickey Henderson. The rap sheet says he has a poor attitude and scores low in that all-important category called team play. "I don't think he played as hard as he could last year," says former Oakland teammate Dwayne Murphy.

Now Henderson is in New York, where the press magnifies the most trivial wrong and where the owner uses the daily papers to express his daily wrath. As another former teammate, Boston's Tony Armas, puts it, "He's gonna find out how to play the game. He's got to be serious."

Yankee manager Yogi Berra dismisses the jabs at Henderson, saying he'll judge for himself. "I don't hold with gossip about a player. He comes to us fresh," says Berra. Still, the 26-year-old Henderson should heed the advice of senior Yankee Willie Randolph, whom he supplants as the leadoff hitter: "You can't be thin-skinned and play on this team."

In 1985 Rickey had a monster season. Either he or George Brett should have own the AL MVP, not Don Mattingly. Rickey did crazy things that season like this. From Sports Illustrated, July 8th, 1985.

How hot is hot? In the case of 26-year-old Rickey Henderson, hot is so hot he's melting the game's parameters. Ninety feet is not enough distance between bases. Four balls, three strikes seems unfair to pitchers. Henderson, in fact, is staging the hottest offensive show in recent baseball history.

Despite missing half of spring training and the first 10 games of the season with a sprained left ankle, he was leading the American League in batting (.354), runs (61) and stolen bases (36 in 38 attempts) at week's end. Only four players have won this hit-and-run Triple Crown: Billy Hamilton of the 1891 Phillies, Ty Cobb of the 1909, 1911 and 1915 Tigers, George Sisler of the 1927 St. Louis Browns and Snuffy Stirnweiss of the 1945 Yankees. Batting leadoff, Henderson is also second in on-base percentage (.438) and, incredibly, second in slugging (.550). Asked about his play, Milwaukee DH Ted Simmons mutters: "MVP."

In the 11 Yankee games between June 17 and June 28, Henderson had a .548 average, a .615 on-base percentage, scored 16 runs and stole 15 bases. Not coincidentally, the Yankees won eight of the 11 games and climbed into third, 6 games behind the East Division-leading Blue Jays. "When Rickey hits, we win," says Yankee first baseman Don Mattingly. "It's as simple as that."

When then-scout, now- manager Billy Martin persuaded Yankee owner George Steinbrenner to acquire Henderson from Oakland and sign him to a five-year, $8.6 million contract last December, the clincher to his argument was that Henderson could be the most exciting Yankee since Mickey Mantle. It appears that Martin wasn't exaggerating. Henderson's versatile hitting and exciting running—both on the bases and in the field—have had the fans jumping and shouting. The 5'10", 180-pounder hits from an extreme crouch and uncoils at the plate like a jack-in-the-box. On the bases he reaches high gear in a few short steps. And he's ranging all over centerfield to track down flies and outrun his occasional misjudgments.

And here is a great article on Henderson and Tim Raines from SI, July 28, 1986.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...5066/index.htm

While Rickey loved to to rack up lots of stolen bases, Raines had another perspective.

"If I went out just to steal, I could steal 150 or 170 bases," says Raines. "But I don't steal bases for myself. I'm a situational base runner. When I was young, I could always hit, and that's the way I look at myself."

Raines takes his hitting very seriously. With a .302 career average, he finished third in the NL at .320 last year, and this season he is third at .334. "I looked to Joe Morgan as my idol," he says of the great second baseman, "mainly because of my size and the fact that I then was an in-fielder. And Joe Morgan could hit." When Raines played at Denver in 1980, he kept a George Brett picture over his locker, and his devotion to the Charlie Lau school of hitting is evident in his stance—on his toes in a crouch, bat straight back. "There's absolutely no way one can pitch to him," says Expo reliever Jeff Reardon.

Raines's real goal is to lead the league in hitting. "I think I can get into the .360-.370 area," he says.

I saw Raines a lot in the 80's as well. He was as a good a base stealer as Rickey. I have no doubt Raines could have stolen 130 bases in a season if he really tried. Sans the 1981 strike, Raines may have broken Brock's single season record before Rickey did.

[Jackaroo Dave]

I guess this is endemic (pandemic) to dealing with internet/spreadsheet baseball fans who don't understand or care about the game on a personal, visceral, experiential level. And probably never played it seriously, so...that figures, we suppose...

Please, mister, I'll be good; just stop beating me about the head and shoulders with your resume.

[csh19792001]

I guess it comes down down to perspective.

IMHO, that was certainly the "post of the year" here, Adam (granted, I was away for over a month, but regardless, that was outstanding).

[Honus Wagner Rules]

IMHO, that was certainly the "post of the year" here, Adam (granted, I was away for over a month, but regardless, that was outstanding).

Thanks for the compliment, Chris. You "historical" guys (you, SHOELESSJOE, many others...) inspire to do more and more historical baseball research. What I don't understand is how did Billy Martin deal with Rickey's loafing? Martin was an old school, hard nosed, baseball man as one can get. And he compared Rickey to Micky Mantle???? Whoa?

As an aside recently I've been reading tons of old Sports Illustrated baseball articles. The SI Vault is AWESOME. Especially when you go back further in time, Sports Illustrated had tremendous baseball coverage.

[csh19792001]

What I don't understand is how did Billy Martin deal with Rickey's loafing?

For starters, Martin gave Rickey the green light whenever he got on the bases, esp in 82'.

Second, Rickey was somewhat akin to a surrogate son to Billy.

Billy Martin and Rickey

[Honus Wagner Rules]

For starters, Martin gave Rickey the green light whenever he got on the bases, esp in 82'.

Second, Rickey was somewhat akin to a surrogate son to Billy.

Billy Martin and Rickey

Did Martin really tell Fred Stanley to be thrown out intentionally so Ricky can steal a base? That is so lame.

[bluesky5]

Yea csh19792001 I don't really know and didn't realize or think about how certain nuances may have escaped people. I sometimes wish I understood stats more, but, and if I may quote the 1993 classic Dazed and Confused, "What we need is some good old worthwhile visceral experience." Makes all the difference in the world.

[bluesky5]

First, as far as scoring runs are concerned, which is what most of us (not all of us) use to judge the talent and contributions of a player....yes, being on second from a 2 base error, a walk and a steal, a HB plus a balk, a stretched single into a double.....are all the same. You are on second....how you got there does not matter.

Second, you have a lot of scenarios that explain why being on first and trying to steal second are not good. I'm not going to say that some of it does not have some truth in it. But, it was not comprehensive. You have missed the fact that pitchers throw more fastballs when a good base stealer is on base, that pitchers lose concentration and rhythm while great baserunners are on base, that inflelders are more out of position when a great base runner is on base, that pitchouts can give the batter a free "ball" in the count, etc. No one knows what your scenarios or mine work out to in the long run. But....there are teams and players that have been stealing bases since the 1800's. Are we to conclude that some people in this thread now believe that all the base stealing of the last 130 years was stupid?

Third, I posted what other players and managers who ACTUALLY play and manage in the major leagues. Apparently they think great baserunners should steal bases. Apparently, if it HURT the team, then train loads of MLB managers would be telling us that, but instead there are people stealing bases in baseball all the time.

Fourth, the jist of my posts are not that taking an extra base on a hit is bad. It's that taking an extra base is done in many ways as a baserunner. I used Musial as an example (because he played a super long career, was recognized as a smart / agressive runner, and had tons of doubles and triples, but obviously lacked foot speed.) The stats show that Henderson took FIVE TIMES as many bases running as Musial took. Unless you think that taking second on a single, creates 5x as many runs as walking and stealing second, then it's clear who was the better baserunner.

Musial and Henderson are not similar. If Henderson ran the bases like Stan Musial, whoa. No one is saying base stealing is stupid. Where did that come from? It's not about whether base stealing is better than taking the extra base, it's only about steals because they are the reason a guy is not giving 100%. It's not 2B, 3B v. SB.