1980 CKL Hall of Fame Ballot

[leecemark]

--Welcome to the 1980 CKL Hall of Fame voting. Voting is open to active CKL owners and 75% of eligible votes is required for election. I'll hold off on adding the poll for a few days for discussion and also in case I missed an eligible candidate.
--New candidates are Roy White, 3rd team LFer on the 70s All Decade team, and Andy Messersmith, 2nd team SP on that team. Their career stats are attached below.
--Also eligible this year are real life Hall of Famers Lou Brock and Jim Hunter. Both had solid CKL careers, but didn't make the All Decade teams for either the 60s or 70s and don't seem likley to be serious candidates for our Hall.
--Returning candidates and their percentages last year;
Maury Wills, 1st team SS on 60s All Decade team, 70%
Dick McAuliffe, 1st team 2B on 60s All Decade team, 40%
Jimmy Wynn, 3rd team CF on 60s All Decade team, 40%
Norm Cash, 3rd team 1B on 60s All Decade team 30%

[leecemark]

--Roy White was a solid start for all 11 seasons he was active in the CKL, but managed to play for 8 different teams over that span anyway. He scored 100 runs 4 times, peaking at an impressive 142 in 1973. He hit a career high .342 with a .442 OBP thjat season.
--Andy Messersmith was the first pick in the 1968 rookie draft. He was drafted by the Knights - but never played a game for them as he was traded to the Angels for 2nd pick Bobby Bonds plus a 3rd rounder before the draft was over. He debuted in the Angels pen that year and graduated to the rotation in his 2nd season. He was traded to the Iron the next year and went 18-6 to help them to the playoffs. After a couple decent years he had his first (and only) 20 win season with a 2.82 era for the 73 Iron. He signed as a free agent with the Gold Sox and won 19 with a 2.72 his first year with them. He slumped off the following 2 seasons then moved on to the Skipjacks in 77. He won 10 games for them before blowing out his shoulder. He missed 78 and 79 trying to rehab before annoucning his retirement this offseason.

[leecemark]

Voting is now open. Poll will be up one week.

[J W]

Messersmith actually won (and lost) more games in less innings pitched than in real life. He also faced more batters - a testament to increase in WHIP from 1.14 to 1.26. Unfortunately I'm guessing he's comparable to the other really good starting pitchers who didn't accrue enough time. I'm just saying we shouldn't sleep on him.

Roy White... how does he stack up to Tony Oliva and Al Kaline?

[leecemark]

--Olivo had a great peak and was easy for me to support even though his career numbers don't add up to as much as some others (he is close on the same basis in real life, but his big years were bigger - against better competition - in the CKL). White was more of a steady performer, who always had a regular job and usually batted at the top of the order so he piled up some pretty good numbers. He is probably not that far off the Kaline profile, but I didn't vote for Kaline either. I think a Hall of Famer should have at least a few years where they are a reasonable MVP candidate.

[Windy City Fan]

Could we see Kaline, Cash, and Wynn's career lines as well?

As for White, he looked like a MVP caliber in 72. I know he didn't win, but he had to finish in the top ten. Did he have any other seasons where he finished in the top 10? And how many all star selections did he get? The biggest knock I can see for White is the shortness of his career. Only 11 seasons and unlike Kaline, he doesn't have any MLB experience to pad the resume with.

[leecemark]

Norm Cash
--Stormin Norman was voted second team 1B on the 1960s All Decade team. He made 3 All Star teams and was in the top 10 in the MVP voting 3 times as well, peaking at 4th in 1961. Cash spent the bulk of his career (9 1/2 years) with the Hard Cider and was a key cog in their great run over those seasons. He ends his career 8th all time in RBI and 9th in HR. Attached Files
cash..txt (8.0 KB, 7 views)

--Looks copying Cash's stats from his HoF debut in 1975 didn't work as a link. You can check those in the 75 Hall of Fame ballot thread
--McAuliffe debuted in 76, Wills in 73 and Wynn in 78 if you want to see their writeup and stats please check those threads.
--White was a 3 time All Star and finished 5th in the 72 MVP vote, his only appearance in the top 10.

[catcher24]

Stats on the four new eligibles:


brock.JPG

hunter.JPG

messersmith.JPG

white.JPG

[catcher24]

Stats on the four primary returning eligibles:

cash.jpg

mcauliffe.JPG

wills.JPG

wynn.JPG

[catcher24]

Of the group, I would lean most strongly towards Wynn, with Cash and McAuliffe close behind. That being said, I haven't voted on any of them previously and would have to be persuaded to do so now. I don't support any of the new candidates at all, as I don't believe any of them have a very strong case for induction.

[leecemark]

if anyone wants to cast a "none of the above" ballot, vote for other and post saying that it is a blank ballot

[Windy City Fan]

Voted Wynn and Cash. I also meant to vote for Wills, but forgot to include him. Can you please factor that into the results?

Looked hard at White, but he comes up a little short to me. Wynn seems to be a decent bottom run candidate to me and White isn't quite the hitter, has less steals, and was primarily a corner outfielder while Wynn played significant time in CF.

[catcher24]

At this point my ballot would be blank, but I haven't posted that yet. Waiting to see if anyone can convince me on Cash or Wynn.

[leecemark]

--Only 2 days left to get your ballot in

[Windy City Fan]

Kaline had a .300/.372/.460 line in 1558 games and 6661 PA. He played a lot of CF for the Diablos and spent most of his time in pitcher's parks, but he is generally considered the bottom threshold of our HOF. Cash had almost identical playing time and a better slash line, but he did play a less demanding position and in a more neutral park. He also had an arguably better peak with seasons good enough to finish 4th, 7th, and 6th in MVP voting.

Wynn had a similar slash line to Kaline, played a better CF defensively and had speed on the bases. He also had several seasons as a MVP candidate finishing 6th and 7th three other times.

They are both very comparable to Kaline. Some might even argue better. So if Kaline is in, Cash and Wynn should be in.

[J W]

I agree completely WCF. I think Norm Cash is the biggest omission we've got so far.

That said, I also voted for Maury Wills and Dick McAuliffe. Wills has been very close for several years now.

[catcher24]

Kaline had a .300/.372/.460 line in 1558 games and 6661 PA. He played a lot of CF for the Diablos and spent most of his time in pitcher's parks, but he is generally considered the bottom threshold of our HOF. Cash had almost identical playing time and a better slash line, but he did play a less demanding position and in a more neutral park. He also had an arguably better peak with seasons good enough to finish 4th, 7th, and 6th in MVP voting.

Wynn had a similar slash line to Kaline, played a better CF defensively and had speed on the bases. He also had several seasons as a MVP candidate finishing 6th and 7th three other times.

They are both very comparable to Kaline. Some might even argue better. So if Kaline is in, Cash and Wynn should be in.

I agree also Craig. However, seeing as how I didn't vote for Kaline, I won't be voting for Cash and Wynn.

Put me down for a blank ballot, Mark.

[leecemark]

Lew, please vote for other (only) to adjust the percentages. Thanks

[Windy City Fan]

Well with Lew's empty ballot and my missing vote for Wills, I believe that puts him at 6 out of 8 ballots, or 75%.

[catcher24]

OK, I added it Mark. I still can't see Wills, but apparently there are only two of us who don't. McAuliffe was far more valuable IMHO and would certainly get my vote ahead of Wills, as would Cash and Wynn. Wills had a .352 OBP, got caught stealing almost exactly one third of the time (which, if I recall the sabremetrics I've seen is just about the break even point for being a valuable offensive tool), and looking at the encyclopedia didn't carry that great a glove either (not in the top 25 of shortstops with 200+ games). Just my two cents, though.

[Erik Bedard]

I voted for Wills for the first time this year after not voting for him for a long time, but I agree that McAuliffe was better, and, 20 years in, probably still the second-best 2B in the history of the league (after Morgan). Maybe the second best MIF, even. I've been voting for him since he appeared on the ballot and will continue to do so.

[catcher24]

I voted for Wills for the first time this year after not voting for him for a long time, but I agree that McAuliffe was better, and, 20 years in, probably still the second-best 2B in the history of the league (after Morgan). Maybe the second best MIF, even. I've been voting for him since he appeared on the ballot and will continue to do so.

I think I could be swayed on McAuliffe. It won't happen on Wills, because I honestly don't see him as that great a player.

[J W]

I'm sure voting for McAuliffe; but then, I'm also voting for Wills and Cash and Wynn. I don't know what else can be said about them though. If I had to pick one out of the four it would be Cash... the 6.5 RC27 is a more significant number for a first baseman than one might think. How many people can you really name that played a majority of their games at 1B, and to date have a better CKL career than Cash?

[leecemark]

--McAuliffe was better at his best than the others. Cash had the most good years, with Wynn just behind or maybe not actually behind depending on on much of a positional advantage you give. Wills was never a great player, but he was amoung the better SS in the league for a decade and remains the best career SS in CKL history. I'd rank them McAuliffe, Wills/in-out line/Cash, Wynn.

[J W]

Let me follow up on my last comment regarding Cash:

Highest RC/27 all time (off Lew's site):

1. Mickey Mantle - 9.5
2. Willie Mays - 7.4
3. Roger Maris - 7.2
4. Hank Aaron - 6.9
5. Leon Wagner - 6.7 (!!)
6. Frank Robinson - 6.7
7. Willie McCovey - 6.7
8. Willie Stargell - 6.6
9. Reggie Jackson - 6.6
10. Ken Singleton - 6.6

...Cash comes in at 6.5 RC/27. He's right there with some very big names.

On a related note, McAuliffe's 5.9 RC/27 looks very good considering he's a MIF.