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Thread: Ranking the HoF Players: 132-135

  1. #1

    Ranking the HoF Players: 132-135

    Project Summary: To rank the worthiness of the players inducted into the National Baseball Hall of Fame from most worthy to least worthy.

    Election Format: Voters will submit ballots ranking their 10 most worthy remaining Hall of Fame players in order of worthiness. Each first place vote will be worth 10 points, with each successive rank being worth one point less than the previous rank, ending in a tenth place vote being worth 1 point. Players will also receive one additional point for each ballot they are listed on and players must be listed on at least three ballots in order to be elected. The five players with the highest support at the end of each election will be elected in the order of their support. Elections will last approximately seven days.
    - Tiebreakers: In the event of a tie among players at the end of an election, the first tiebreaker will be the total number of ballot appearance in that election. The second tiebreaker will be total number of points irrespective of number of ballots. The third tiebreaker will be the number first place votes in that election. In the event that there remains a tie for the fifth and final spot in an election, there will be a three day run-off by poll. Players that lose in a run-off will slot into the next ranking spot.

    Factors to Consider: As this project focuses on players inducted into the National Baseball Hall of Fame, subjective qualities beyond just statistics should be taken into consideration in determining a player's relative worthiness. In that vein, the voting guidelines that the BBWAA is to follow in actual National Baseball Hall of Fame elections, may be instructive (though not necessarily determinative in this project): "Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played."

    Player Eligibility: Only players that have been elected to the National Baseball Hall of Fame as players are eligible, including Negro League players and 19th Century players. A complete list of individuals that have been inducted as players is available at the National Baseball Hall of Fame's website, and is recreated below along with each player's corresponding BBF Rank as determined by this project:

    Results
    1) Babe Ruth
    2) Willie Mays
    3) Ty Cobb
    4) Ted Williams
    5) Hank Aaron
    6) Honus Wagner
    7) Walter Johnson
    8) Lou Gehrig
    9) Cy Young
    10) Stan Musial
    11) Mickey Mantle
    12) Rogers Hornsby
    13) Jackie Robinson
    14) Tris Speaker
    15) Josh Gibson
    16) Eddie Collins
    17) Satchel Paige
    18) Grover Alexander
    19) Frank Robinson
    20) Joe DiMaggio
    21) Oscar Charleston
    22) Mike Schmidt
    23) Lefty Grove
    24) Tom Seaver
    25) Cap Anson
    26) Christy Mathewson
    27) Rickey Henderson
    28) Jimmie Foxx
    29) Nap Lajoie
    30) Joe Morgan
    31) Johnny Bench
    32) Mel Ott
    33) Warren Spahn
    34) Yogi Berra
    35) Cal Ripken
    36) George Brett
    37) Pop Lloyd
    38) Kid Nichols
    39) Eddie Mathews
    40) Bob Feller
    41) Roberto Clemente
    42) Bob Gibson
    43) Joe Williams
    44) Carl Yastrzemski
    45) Hank Greenberg
    46) Dan Brouthers
    47) Steve Carlton
    48) Sandy Koufax
    49) Ed Delahanty
    50) Johnny Mize
    51) Al Kaline
    52) Turkey Stearnes
    53) Wade Boggs
    54) Charlie Gehringer
    55) Mickey Cochrane
    56) Reggie Jackson
    57) Arky Vaughan
    58) Roger Connor
    59) Nolan Ryan
    ---Top 25% Cutoff---
    60) Robin Yount
    61) Rod Carew
    62) Tony Gwynn
    63) Carl Hubbell
    64) Roy Campanella
    65) Ernie Banks
    66) Sam Crawford
    67) Duke Snider
    68) George Davis
    69) King Kelly
    70) John Ward
    71) Eddie Murray
    72) Bullet Rogan
    73) Harmon Killebrew
    74) Buck Ewing
    75) Billy Hamilton
    76) Gaylord Perry
    77) Carlton Fisk
    78) Paul Waner
    79) Juan Marichal
    80) Al Simmons
    81) John Clarkson
    82) Martin Dihigo
    83) Robin Roberts
    84) Willie McCovey
    85) Frankie Frisch
    86) Phil Niekro
    87) Eddie Plank
    88) Gary Carter
    89) Whitey Ford
    90) Tim Keefe
    91) Mordecai Brown
    92) Luke Appling
    93) Brooks Robinson
    94) Ferguson Jenkins
    95) Willie Stargell
    96) Frank Baker
    97) Jim Palmer
    98) Joe Cronin
    99) Bill Dickey
    100) Jesse Burkett
    101) Harry Heilmann
    102) Fred Clarke
    103) Buck Leonard
    104) Hoyt Wilhelm
    105) Ed Walsh
    106) Bert Blyleven
    107) Barry Larkin
    108) Gabby Hartnett
    109) Dave Winfield
    110) George Sisler
    111) Mule Suttles
    112) Joe Medwick
    113) Jim O'Rourke
    114) Jud Wilson
    115) Ozzie Smith
    116) Paul Molitor
    117) Charles Radbourn
    118) Monte Irvin
    ---Top 50% Cutoff---
    119) Ryne Sandberg
    120) Roberto Alomar
    121) Ron Santo
    122) Billy Williams
    123) Willie Keeler
    124) Willie Wells
    125) Cristobal Torriente
    126) Dennis Eckersley
    127) Zack Wheat
    128) Larry Doby
    129) Amos Rusie
    130) Goose Goslin
    131) Bill Terry

    Master List
    Code:
    Player				BBF Rank
    Hank Aaron			5
    Grover Alexander		18
    Roberto Alomar			120
    Cap Anson			25
    Luis Aparicio
    Luke Appling			92
    Richie Ashburn
    Earl Averill
    Frank Baker			96
    Dave Bancroft
    Ernie Banks			65
    Jake Beckley
    Cool Papa Bell
    Johnny Bench			31
    Chief Bender
    Yogi Berra			34
    Bert Blyleven			106
    Wade Boggs			53
    Jim Bottomley
    Lou Boudreau
    Roger Bresnahan
    George Brett			36
    Lou Brock
    Dan Brouthers			46
    Mordecai Brown			91
    Ray Brown
    Willard Brown
    Jim Bunning
    Jesse Burkett			100
    Roy Campanella			64
    Rod Carew			61
    Max Carey
    Steve Carlton			47
    Gary Carter			88
    Orlando Cepeda
    Frank Chance
    Oscar Charleston		21
    Jack Chesbro
    Fred Clarke			102
    John Clarkson			81
    Roberto Clemente		41
    Ty Cobb				3
    Mickey Cochrane			55
    Eddie Collins			16
    Jimmy Collins
    Earle Combs
    Roger Connor			58
    Andy Cooper
    Stan Coveleski
    Sam Crawford			66
    Joe Cronin			98
    Kiki Cuyler
    Ray Dandridge
    George Davis			68
    Andre Dawson
    Leon Day
    Dizzy Dean
    Ed Delahanty			49
    Bill Dickey			99
    Martin Dihigo			82
    Joe DiMaggio			20
    Larry Doby			128
    Bobby Doerr
    Don Drysdale
    Hugh Duffy
    Dennis Eckersley		126
    Johnny Evers
    Buck Ewing			74
    Red Faber
    Bob Feller			40
    Rick Ferrell
    Rollie Fingers
    Carlton Fisk			77
    Elmer Flick
    Whitey Ford			89
    Bill Foster
    Nellie Fox
    Jimmie Foxx			28
    Frankie Frisch			85
    Pud Galvin
    Lou Gehrig			8
    Charlie Gehringer		54
    Bob Gibson			42
    Josh Gibson			15
    Lefty Gomez
    Joe Gordon
    Goose Goslin			130
    Rich Gossage
    Frank Grant
    Hank Greenberg			45
    Burleigh Grimes
    Lefty Grove			23
    Tony Gwynn			62
    Chick Hafey
    Jesse Haines
    Billy Hamilton			75
    Gabby Hartnett			108
    Harry Heilmann			101
    Rickey Henderson		27
    Billy Herman
    Pete Hill
    Harry Hooper
    Rogers Hornsby			12
    Waite Hoyt
    Carl Hubbell			63
    Catfish Hunter
    Monte Irvin			118
    Reggie Jackson			56
    Travis Jackson	
    Ferguson Jenkins		94
    Hugh Jennings
    Judy Johnson
    Walter Johnson			7
    Addie Joss
    Al Kaline			51
    Tim Keefe			90
    Willie Keeler			123
    George Kell
    Joe Kelley
    George Kelly
    King Kelly			69
    Harmon Killebrew		73
    Ralph Kiner
    Chuck Klein
    Sandy Koufax			48
    Nap Lajoie			29
    Barry Larkin			107
    Tony Lazzeri
    Bob Lemon
    Buck Leonard			103
    Freddie Lindstrom
    Pop Lloyd			37
    Ernie Lombardi
    Ted Lyons
    Biz Mackey
    Mickey Mantle			11
    Heinie Manush
    Rabbit Maranville
    Juan Marichal			79
    Rube Marquard
    Eddie Mathews			39
    Christy Mathewson		26
    Willie Mays			2
    Bill Mazeroski
    Tommy McCarthy
    Willie McCovey			84
    Joe McGinnity
    Bid McPhee
    Joe Medwick			112
    Jose Mendez
    Johnny Mize			50
    Paul Molitor			116
    Joe Morgan			30
    Eddie Murray			71
    Stan Musial			10
    Hal Newhouser
    Kid Nichols			38
    Phil Niekro			86
    Jim O’Rourke			113
    Mel Ott				32
    Satchel Paige			17
    Jim Palmer			97
    Herb Pennock
    Tony Perez
    Gaylord Perry			76
    Eddie Plank			87
    Kirby Puckett
    Charles Radbourn		117
    Pee Wee Reese
    Jim Rice
    Sam Rice
    Cal Ripken			35
    Eppa Rixey
    Phil Rizzuto
    Robin Roberts			83
    Brooks Robinson			93
    Frank Robinson			19
    Jackie Robinson			13
    Bullet Rogan			72
    Edd Roush
    Red Ruffing
    Amos Rusie			129
    Babe Ruth			1
    Nolan Ryan			59
    Ryne Sandberg			119
    Ron Santo			121
    Louis Santop
    Ray Schalk
    Mike Schmidt			22
    Red Schoendienst
    Tom Seaver			24
    Joe Sewell
    Al Simmons			80
    George Sisler			110
    Enos Slaughter
    Hilton Smith
    Ozzie Smith			115
    Duke Snider			67
    Warren Spahn			33
    Tris Speaker			14
    Willie Stargell			95
    Turkey Stearnes			52
    Bruce Sutter
    Mule Suttles			111
    Don Sutton
    Ben Taylor
    Bill Terry			131
    Sam Thompson
    Joe Tinker
    Cristobal Torriente		125
    Pie Traynor
    Dazzy Vance
    Arky Vaughan			57
    Rube Waddell
    Honus Wagner			6
    Bobby Wallace
    Ed Walsh			105
    Lloyd Waner
    Paul Waner			78
    John Ward			70
    Mickey Welch
    Willie Wells			124
    Zack Wheat			127
    Hoyt Wilhelm			104
    Billy Williams			122
    Joe Williams			43
    Ted Williams			4
    Vic Willis
    Hack Wilson
    Jud Wilson			114
    Dave Winfield			109
    Early Wynn
    Carl Yastrzemski		44
    Cy Young			9
    Ross Youngs
    Robin Yount			60
    Ranking by Primary Position
    Catcher (10): Josh Gibson (15), Johnny Bench (31), Yogi Berra (34), Mickey Cochrane (55), Roy Campanella (64), Buck Ewing (74), Carlton Fisk (77), Gary Carter (88), Bill Dickey (99), Gabby Hartnett (108)

    First Base (14): Lou Gehrig (8), Cap Anson (25), Jimmie Foxx (28), Hank Greenberg (45), Dan Brouthers (46), Johnny Mize (50), Roger Connor (58), Eddie Murray (71), Harmon Killebrew (73), Willie McCovey (84), Buck Leonard (103), George Sisler (110), Mule Suttles (111), Bill Terry (131)

    Second Base (10): Rogers Hornsby (12), Jackie Robinson (13), Eddie Collins (16), Nap Lajoie (29), Joe Morgan (30), Charlie Gehringer (54), Rod Carew (61), Frankie Frisch (85), Ryne Sandberg (119), Roberto Alomar (120)

    Shortstop (13): Honus Wagner (6), Cal Ripken (35), Pop Lloyd (37), Arky Vaughan (57), Robin Yount (60), Ernie Banks (65), George Davis (68), John Ward (70), Luke Appling (92), Joe Cronin (98), Barry Larkin (107), Ozzie Smith (115), Willie Wells (124)

    Third Base (9): Mike Schmidt (22), George Brett (36), Eddie Mathews (39), Wade Boggs (53), Brooks Robinson (93), Frank Baker (96), Jud Wilson (114), Paul Molitor (116), Ron Santo (121)

    Left Field (15): Ted Williams (4), Stan Musial (10), Rickey Henderson (27), Carl Yastrzemski (44), Ed Delahanty (49), Al Simmons (80), Willie Stargell (95), Jesse Burkett (100), Fred Clarke (102), Joe Medwick (112), Jim O'Rourke (113), Monte Irvin (118), Billy Williams (122), Zack Wheat (127), Goose Goslin (130)

    Center Field (11): Willie Mays (2), Ty Cobb (3), Mickey Mantle (11), Tris Speaker (14), Joe DiMaggio (20), Oscar Charleston (21), Turkey Stearnes (52), Duke Snider (67), Billy Hamilton (75), Cristobal Torriente (125), Larry Doby (128)

    Right Field (14): Babe Ruth (1), Hank Aaron (5), Frank Robinson (19), Mel Ott (32), Roberto Clemente (41), Al Kaline (51), Reggie Jackson (56), Tony Gwynn (62), Sam Crawford (66), King Kelly (69), Paul Waner (78), Harry Heilmann (101), Dave Winfield (109), Willie Keeler (123)

    Pitcher (35): Walter Johnson (7), Cy Young (9), Satchel Paige (17), Grover Alexander (18), Lefty Grove (23), Tom Seaver (24), Christy Mathewson (26), Warren Spahn (33), Kid Nichols (38), Bob Feller (40), Bob Gibson (42), Joe Williams (43), Steve Carlton (47), Sandy Koufax (48), Nolan Ryan (59), Carl Hubbell (63), Bullet Rogan (72), Gaylord Perry (76), Juan Marichal (79), John Clarkson (81), Martin Dihigo (82), Robin Roberts (83), Phil Niekro (86), Eddie Plank (87), Whitey Ford (89), Tim Keefe (90), Mordecai Brown (91), Ferguson Jenkins (94), Jim Palmer (97), Hoyt Wilhelm (104), Ed Walsh (105), Bert Blyleven (106), Charles Radbourn (117), Dennis Eckersley (126), Amos Rusie (129)

    Ranking by Primary Decade
    1880s (10): Cap Anson (25), Dan Brouthers (46), Roger Connor (58), King Kelly (69), John Ward (70), Buck Ewing (74), John Clarkson (81), Tim Keefe (90), Jim O'Rourke (113), Charles Radbourn (117)

    1890s (8): Cy Young (9), Kid Nichols (38), Ed Delahanty (49), George Davis (68), Billy Hamilton (75), Jesse Burkett (100), Willie Keeler (123), Amos Rusie (129)

    1900 (7): Honus Wagner (6), Christy Mathewson (26), Nap Lajoie (29), Sam Crawford (66), Eddie Plank (87), Mordecai Brown (91), Fred Clarke (102)

    1910s (10): Ty Cobb (3), Walter Johnson (7), Tris Speaker (14), Eddie Collins (16), Grover Alexander (18), Pop Lloyd (37), Joe Williams (43), Frank Baker (96), Ed Walsh (105), Zack Wheat (127)

    1920s (10): Babe Ruth (1), Rogers Hornsby (12), Oscar Charleston (21), Turkey Stearnes (52), Bullet Rogan (72), Frankie Frisch (85), Harry Heilmann (101), George Sisler (110), Cristobal Torriente (125), Goose Goslin (130)

    1930s (22): Lou Gehrig (8), Josh Gibson (15), Satchel Paige (17), Lefty Grove (23), Jimmie Foxx (28), Mel Ott (32), Hank Greenberg (45), Charlie Gehringer (54), Mickey Cochrane (55), Arky Vaughan (57), Carl Hubbell (63), Paul Waner (78), Al Simmons (80), Martin Dihigo (82), Joe Cronin (98), Bill Dickey (99), Gabby Hartnett (108), Mule Suttles (111), Joe Medwick (112), Jud Wilson (114), Willie Wells (124), Bill Terry (131)

    1940s (8): Ted Williams (4), Stan Musial (10), Joe DiMaggio (20), Bob Feller (40), Johnny Mize (50), Luke Appling (92), Buck Leonard (103), Monte Irvin (118)

    1950s (10): Mickey Mantle (11), Jackie Robinson (13), Warren Spahn (33), Yogi Berra (34), Eddie Mathews (39), Roy Campanella (64), Duke Snider (67), Robin Roberts (83), Whitey Ford (89), Larry Doby (128)

    1960s (15): Willie Mays (2), Hank Aaron (5), Frank Robinson (19), Roberto Clemente (41), Bob Gibson (42), Sandy Koufax (48), Al Kaline (51), Ernie Banks (65), Harmon Killebrew (73), Juan Marichal (79), Willie McCovey (84), Brooks Robinson (93), Hoyt Wilhelm (104), Ron Santo (121), Billy Williams (122)

    1970s (15): Tom Seaver (24), Joe Morgan (30), Johnny Bench (31), Carl Yastrzemski (44), Steve Carlton (47), Reggie Jackson (56), Nolan Ryan (59), Rod Carew (61), Gaylord Perry (76), Carlton Fisk (77), Phil Niekro (86), Ferguson Jenkins (94), Willie Stargell (95), Jim Palmer (97), Bert Blyleven (106)

    1980s (14): Mike Schmidt (22), Rickey Henderson (27), Cal Ripken (35), George Brett (36), Wade Boggs (53), Robin Yount (60), Tony Gwynn (62), Eddie Murray (71), Gary Carter (88), Dave Winfield (109), Ozzie Smith (115), Paul Molitor (116), Ryne Sandberg (119), Dennis Eckersley (126)

    1990s (2): Barry Larkin (107), Roberto Alomar (120)

    Links to Previous Elections
    Election 1-5
    Election 6-10
    Election 11-15
    Election 16-20
    Election 21- 25
    Election 26-30
    Election 31-35
    Election 36-40 (41)
    Election 42-45
    Election 46-50
    Election 51-55
    Election 56-60
    Election 61-65
    Election 65-70
    Election 71-75
    Election 75-80 (81)
    Election 82-85
    Election 86-90
    Election 91-95
    Election 96-100
    Election 101-105 (106)
    Election 107-110
    Election 111-115
    Election 116-120
    Election 121-125
    Election 126-130 (131)

  2. #2
    We elected six players last time, so we'll only elect 4 this time (barring more ties):

    1) Dazzy Vance
    2) Kirby Puckett
    3) Rube Waddell
    4) Don Drysdale
    5) Lou Boudreau
    6) Dizzy Dean
    7) Cool Papa Bell
    8) Jimmy Collins
    9) Pee Wee Reese
    10) Joe Gordon

    It's getting really tough to round out the ballot. On the near horizon: Stan Coveleski, Goose Gossage, Billy Herman, Hugh Jennings, Joe Kelley, Ralph Kiner, Ted Lyons, Red Ruffing, Don Sutton, Sam Thompson

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    7,090
    Blog Entries
    4
    1. Dazzy Vance - 10
    2. Frank Chance - 9
    3. Rube Waddell - 8
    4. Kirby Puckett - 7
    5. Jimmy Collins - 6
    6. Cool Papa Bell - 5
    7. Lou Brock - 4
    8. Hal Newhouser - 3
    9. Don Drysdale - 2
    10. Louis Santop - 1

    some possibilities are Kiner, Mackey, Gordon, McGinnity, McPhee, Lyons, Coveleski, Sutton, Galvin

  4. #4
    1 - Max Carey
    2 - Rich Gossage
    3 - Joe Gordon
    4 - Lou Boudreau
    5 - Early Wynn
    6 - Hal Newhouser
    7 - Ted Lyons
    8 - Dizzy Dean
    9 - Jimmy Collins
    10 - Pie Traynor

    My next batch, in order - Billy Herman, Sam Thompson, Dazzy Vance, Rube Waddell, Red Ruffing, Bid McPhee, Louis Santop

  5. #5
    1) Lou Brock
    2) Pud Galvin
    3) Joe McGinnity
    4) Sam Rice
    5) Don Sutton
    6) Kirby Puckett
    7) Rube Waddell
    8) Don Drysdale
    9) Joe Kelley
    10) Edd Roush
    Check out my stuff for sale on eBay! Currently selling New York Yankees, St. Louis Cardinals, Baltimore Orioles, Boston Red Sox, San Francisco Giants, Tampa Bay Rays and Washington Nationals card lots! Player lots of Tony Gwynn, Felix Hernandez, Nolan Ryan and Giancarlo Stanton! Plus a guide on how to get autographs ... for free!

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  6. #6
    1. Sam Thompson
    2. Goose Gossage
    3. Chuck Klein
    4. Ralph Kiner
    5. Billy Herman
    6. Orlando Cepeda
    7. Kirby Puckett
    8. Andre Dawson
    9. Don Drysdale
    10. Hugh Duffy

    Soon: Mickey Welch, Richie Ashburn, Pud Galvin, Elmer Flick

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    southeastern PA
    Posts
    14,922
    Blog Entries
    34
    1. Joe Gordon
    2. Pee Wee Reese
    3. Hugh Jennings
    4. Don Drysdale
    5. Lou Boudreau
    6. Hal Newhouser
    7. Jim Bunning
    8. Joe Kelley
    9. Willard Brown
    10. Ray Brown
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Balmer, Merlin
    Posts
    7,575
    1. Cool Papa Bell (10)
    2. Rube Waddell (9)
    3. Lou Boudreau (8)
    4. Hal Newhouser (7)
    5. Billy Herman (6)
    6. Biz Mackey (5)
    7. Pee Wee Reese (4)
    8. Louis Santop (3)
    9. Pete Hill (2)
    10 Enos Slaughter (1)
    Stan Coveleski
    Dazzy Vance
    Frank Grant
    Ray Brown
    Willard Brown
    Don Drysdale
    Frank Chance
    Earl Averill
    Joe McGinnity
    Jimmy Collins
    Last edited by J W; 02-14-2012 at 03:03 PM.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    5,002
    1. Cool Papa Bell
    2. Lou Brock
    3. Don Drysdale
    4. Dizzy Dean
    5. Hal Newhouser
    6. Orlando Cepeda
    7. Don Sutton
    8. Pee Wee Reese
    9. Andre Dawson
    10. Ralph Kiner

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
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    Balmer, Merlin
    Posts
    7,575
    With the slotting of Bill Terry, I would like to point out for those who gave Fred Clarke player/manager credit that Frank Chance deserves much of the same. He played and managed for a full decade (1905-1914), winning four pennants and two World Series in that span. His career win-loss% as a manager is .644. During those years his playing time dwindled from full seasons to barely playing games, even though he carried career rate averages into year seven of his tenure.

    As a player, his 135 OPS+ and stellar glove would have waltzed him into Cooperstown if he had played more than six seasons with at least 100 games. To wit, Chance gets a boost on my list for playing/managing and is now in the waiting room. Note that Hughie Jennings is not on my list; I do not believe he should get as much credit as he began managing at age 38 (not that Jennings is a bottom feeder).

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by J W View Post
    With the slotting of Bill Terry, I would like to point out for those who gave Fred Clarke player/manager credit that Frank Chance deserves much of the same. He played and managed for a full decade (1905-1914), winning four pennants and two World Series in that span. His career win-loss% as a manager is .644. During those years his playing time dwindled from full seasons to barely playing games, even though he carried career rate averages into year seven of his tenure.

    As a player, his 135 OPS+ and stellar glove would have waltzed him into Cooperstown if he had played more than six seasons with at least 100 games. To wit, Chance gets a boost on my list for playing/managing and is now in the waiting room. Note that Hughie Jennings is not on my list; I do not believe he should get as much credit as he began managing at age 38 (not that Jennings is a bottom feeder).
    But Jennings was a far better player in his prime than Chance ever was. Jennings was the best player in baseball over a 5 year period (1894-1899), and led baseball in WAR for position players in 1895, 1896, 1897 and 1898.

  12. #12
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    Balmer, Merlin
    Posts
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    Well, if you talk in terms of WAR, Chance and Jennings arrive at nearly the same spot in nearly the same number of plate appearances (Chance - 49.5/5103, Jennings - 46.4/5648) so despite Jennings' better peak I see them as comparable. Chance actually accrued more WAR in less time.

    In totality, I would put Jennings slightly ahead of Chance in player value because shortstops simply didn't hit like that in the 19th century (to my knowledge). I'm still not giving him a boost based on player/managing.
    Last edited by J W; 02-14-2012 at 03:54 PM.

  13. #13
    A key difference between Clarke and Chance is that Clarke had a much longer and more productive career as a player than Chance, and the player accomplishments is the main focus here, with the player/managerial aspect a nice aside. Chance is entering my radar, but the fact that he had just six seasons in which he played more than 100 games, really hurts him in this project. The fact that he decided to focus on managing more, while enhancing his overall Hall of Fame case, I think actually hurts him here because it greatly truncated his playing career.

    Clarke on the other hand, really had a full career as a player and with a 132 OPS+ and 73.4 WAR in nearly 10000 plate appearances, probably wasn't too far off from being elected anyway when we elected him at 102. The managerial aspect may have only slightly hastened his election. I'm sure the managerial component will expedite Chance's election as well, but his playing career doesn't register nearly as much as Clarke's (or Terry's or Jennings') and that's why he isn't getting much mention yet.

  14. #14
    1. Don Drysdale
    2. Dizzy Dean
    3. Goose Gossage
    4. Frank Chance
    5. Max Carey
    6. Pud Galvin
    7. Kirby Puckett
    8. Phil Rizzuto
    9. Joe Gordon
    10. Johnny Evers

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by J W View Post
    Well, if you talk in terms of WAR, Chance and Jennings arrive at nearly the same spot in nearly the same number of plate appearances (Chance - 49.5/5103, Jennings - 46.4/5648) so despite Jennings' better peak I see them as comparable. Chance actually accrued more WAR in less time.
    Yes, Chance was really good for almost the entire time that he played. Jennings on the other hand was the greatest player of his time for 5 years, and then was not all that good for the rest of his career, when he threw his arm out for good and had to move to 1B.

  16. #16
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    1. Sam Thompson
    2. Dizzy Dean
    3. Chuck Klein
    4. Joe McGinnity
    5. Dazzy Vance
    6. Rube Wadell
    7. Joe Gordon
    8. Lou Brock
    9. Ralph Kiner
    10. Enos Slaughter
    "It ain't braggin' if you can do it!" Dizzy Dean

    "I sure was having a picnic with Frisch. You oughta seen the fellows in the clubhouse when I was puttin' him on. They was duckin' behind posts, tryin' to keep Frank from seein' how they was laughin', an' I had a time keepin' a straight face myself. I hope Frank manages the Cardinals forever. I sure love to drive that Dutchman nuts!" Dizzy Dean

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Balmer, Merlin
    Posts
    7,575
    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleX View Post
    A key difference between Clarke and Chance is that Clarke had a much longer and more productive career as a player than Chance, and the player accomplishments is the main focus here, with the player/managerial aspect a nice aside.
    That is true, which is why we slotted Clarke just outside the top 100 and why I have Chance just making my "waiting room" now, even though I'm giving him a big boost. I'm expecting Chance to land around #160.

  18. #18
    1. Lou Brock
    2. Pud Galvin
    3. Dizzy Dean
    4. Sam Thompson
    5. Don Drysdale
    6. Biz Mackey
    7. Ralph Kiner
    8. Cool Papa Bell
    9. Dazzy Vance
    10. Joe Gordon

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Balmer, Merlin
    Posts
    7,575
    Out of curiosity I checked out our rankings among Negro/Latin League players:

    1. Josh Gibson (15)
    2. Satchel Paige (17)
    3. Oscar Charleston (21)
    4. Pop Lloyd (37)
    5. Smokey Joe Williams (43)
    6. Turkey Stearnes (52)
    7. Bullet Joe Rogan (72)
    8. Martin Dihigo (82)
    9. Buck Leonard (103)
    10. Mule Suttles (111)
    11. Jud Wilson (114)
    12. Monte Irvin (118)
    13. Willie Wells (124)
    14. Cristobal Torriente (125)

    So far, 10.7% of the players we've ranked are primarily based on their Negro League play. We're just over half-way in our rankings and we've elected 14/29 players... so it looks like we're going to continue ranking them at about the same rate. Even the bottom quarter should have its fair share of players who, according to the research done by historians, may not have been all that good.

    Obviously the biggest benefactor of the Negro Leaguers is the 1930s club, netting 6 players among its exorbitant number of 22. That said, a higher percentage of players in the 1920s (4/10) come from Black and Latin baseball.

  20. #20
    JW, I was wondering how we were doing with Negro Leaguers, so thanks for putting that together.

    My guess as we get to less familiar Negro Leaguers is that we may see most of the remaining players bunched together around the end of the 100s/beginning of the 200s.

    Also, election ends tommorrow.

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    5,002
    I think the main reason that the guys whose peak was in the '30's are more firmly entrenched in the historical record is because of the relatively high profile of the league that was operating then.

  22. #22
    This election is over, here are the results (keep in mind we elected only 4 this time):

    1) Don Drysdale - 53 (45 points, 8 votes; 1 first place)
    2) Dizzy Dean - 47 (41 points, 6 votes)
    3) Lou Brock - 41 (36 points, 5 votes; 2 first place)
    4) Rube Waddell - 39 (34 points, 5 votes)

    5) Kirby Puckett - 34 (29 points, 5 votes)
    6) Joe Gordon - 32 (26 points, 6 votes; 1 first place)
    7) Dazzy Vance - 32 (28 points, 4 votes; 2 first place)
    8) Hal Newhouser - 31 (26 points, 5 votes)
    9) Cool Papa Bell - 31 (27 points, 4 votes; 2 first place)
    10) Lou Boudreau - 31 (27 points, 4 votes)
    11) Sam Thompson - 30 (27 points, 3 votes; 2 first place)
    12) Rich Gossage - 29 (26 points, 3 votes)
    13) Pud Galvin - 26 (23 points, 3 votes)
    14) Pee Wee Reese - 22 (18 points, 4 votes)
    15) Ralph Kiner - 18 (14 points, 4 votes)
    16) Max Carey - 18 (16 points, 2 votes; 1 first place)
    t17) Frank Chance - 18 (16 points, 2 votes)
    t17) Chuck Klein - 18 (16 points, 2 votes)
    19) Joe McGinnity - 17 (15 points, 2 votes)
    20) Jimmy Collins - 14 (11 points, 3 votes)
    21) Billy Herman - 14 (12 points, 2 votes)
    t22) Orlando Cepeda - 12 (10 points, 2 votes)
    t22) Biz Mackey - 12 (10 points, 2 votes)
    t22) Don Sutton - 12 (10 points, 2 votes)
    25) Hugh Jennings - 9 (8 points, 1 vote)
    26) Sam Rice - 8 (7 points, 1 vote)
    t27) Andre Dawson - 7 (5 points, 2 votes)
    t27) Joe Kelley - 7 (5 points, 2 votes)
    29) Early Wynn - 7 (6 points, 1 vote)
    30) Louis Santop - 6 (4 points, 2 votes)
    t31) Jim Bunning - 5 (4 points, 1 vote)
    t31) Ted Lyons - 5 (4 points, 1 vote)
    33) Enos Slaughter - 4 (2 points, 2 votes)
    34) Phil Rizzuto - 4 (3 points, 1 vote)
    t35) Willard Brown - 3 (2 points, 1 vote)
    t35) Pete Hill - 3 (2 points, 1 vote)
    t37) Ray Brown - 2 (1 point, 1 vote)
    t37) Hugh Duffy - 2 (1 point, 1 vote)
    t37) Johnny Evers - 2 (1 point, 1 vote)
    t37) Edd Roush - 2 (1 point, 1 vote)
    t37) Pie Traynor - 2 (1 point, 1 vote)

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