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Thread: 2012 Cardinals Season Thread

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by philliesfiend55 View Post
    "Oh , Frank. You're so ABOVE AVERAGE! " - Hot Lips Houlihan (Loretta Swit) embracing Major Frank Burns (Larry Linville) in a MASH television series episode.

    The St.Louis Cardinals have become a later version of the 1997 & 2003 Florida Marlins - an ABOVE AVERAGE team, that simply got hot at the right time.
    Lets say the Cards go to another World Series....what will the narrative be?

    Decent/barely above average team blindly finds its way to its 3rd World Series in seven years? Don't think so.

    Look at the players that the Cardinals have featured the past 7 years:

    Pujols, Rolen, Edmonds, Carpenter, Wainwright, Berkman, Holliday, Beltran, Molina, Furcal, Freese, Mulder, Craig, Motte, etc. If this is all we knew about a team that went to 3 WS in seven years, everybody would say "no s**t - look at those players."

    Look at the 2010 Celtics...the 1991 Penguins...2010 Packers...2000 Yankees.. Nobody was surprised when those teams full of great players won (or almost won) championships with mediocre records. These Cardinal teams (who have also been ravaged by injuries each year) are no different.
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  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew C. View Post
    1. The Cards had an insane amount of regular season injuries all three seasons - more than typical. I know, the Phillies were too, etc. and they have some room to gripe as well.
    2. Looking at pure talent on the field, I'd take the Cardinal teams over the 2006 Padres, the 2006 Tigers, the 2011 Brewers, and the 2012 Nats. Probably the 2012 Ginats too if they advance. Maybe the 2006 Mets too, given they had no starting pitching other than an aging Glavine. And of course for being so much worse, the Cards made the playoffs again while the superior Phillies and Brewers didn't even make the playoffs.
    3. 88 wins and 90 wins are not "merely above average". With so many factors involved, there is little difference statistically speaking between an 88 win team and a 94 win team. 54% vs. 58% is a coin flip given 162 games. They did have the leagues 2nd best run differential.
    4. Keep in mind that from 1985 to 2005, the Cardinals lost eight postseason series...7 of which were by teams with worse records. They lost 3 series to teams with 10+ fewer wins. One with more runs allowed than runs scored. That stunk too, but things like this come full circle.
    5. All 3 teams were shock-full of All Stars and multiple at least borderline HOFers. I'd take the consistent of talent over much more random W/L record any day when evaluating a team's greatness. While the Nats and A's and O's had the big W/L records and Cinderella stories, it is the teams with experience and talent who are left, W/L records be damned.
    well if a 162 games season is a coinflip and a short series is a coinflip too doesn't that mean the whole game of baseball is a coinflip? what is the best way to find out the best team?

    Or is MLB just a big entertainment but of limited value in finding the best team in baseball.
    I now have my own non commercial blog about training for batspeed and power using my training experience in baseball and track and field.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by dominik View Post
    well if a 162 games season is a coinflip and a short series is a coinflip too doesn't that mean the whole game of baseball is a coinflip? what is the best way to find out the best team?

    Or is MLB just a big entertainment but of limited value in finding the best team in baseball.
    I never said the season (for everybody) is a coinflip. When did I say that? I said 58% vs. 54% is a coinflip. I only said that record is nowhere close to a perfect gauge of talent. Studies from Tom Tango show that a teams true talent in a given season can range from 10 wins from actual wins. Which is why a team like Arizona can go from 95 wins to 82 wins with the same talent. Record only partially captures talent. But the misinformed look at a team with 93 wins vs. a teams with 88 wins and say "it is such an upset if the 88 win team wins". Statistically speaking, there is little difference in 93 or 88 wins. That is the difference from a couple of lucky bounces or blown calls each for both teams. Or one blah player having a fluke good year for one team and one star having a fluke bad year for the other team.

    So which is is: the 2006-2012 loaded-with-talent Cardinlas are really a mediocre team who have miraculously found itself in possibly 3 World Series or... 3 possible World Series teams loaded with talent underperformed/got unlucky/injured a lot in the regular season? The former is a popular narrative from many people.

    Nobody said anything about the regular season being a coinflip.

    For the regular season to be a coinflip, then there would be no correlation between payroll or talent and wins - that is preposterous.
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  4. #44
    well a short series can go either way even when a .400 team meets a .600 team. the .600 team will win a ot more series but a few times a year the .400 team will win the series too. in that regard 88 vs 93 really don't mean a lot to predict a short series.

    but what is the purpose of the baseball season if basically all 10 playoff teams are within a win percentage rage that doesn't allow to distinguish their talent?
    I now have my own non commercial blog about training for batspeed and power using my training experience in baseball and track and field.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by dominik View Post
    well a short series can go either way even when a .400 team meets a .600 team. the .600 team will win a ot more series but a few times a year the .400 team will win the series too. in that regard 88 vs 93 really don't mean a lot to predict a short series.

    but what is the purpose of the baseball season if basically all 10 playoff teams are within a win percentage rage that doesn't allow to distinguish their talent?
    That is why so many people do not like so many teams in the playoffs. Many do not like playoffs at all. It would be a crazy long season to find "true talent" of every team. And not "all 10 teams" A .630 win teams is likely more talented than a .530 team. Anything within .05 is not very indicative.
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  6. #46
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    Where the heck are all the Cardinal fans anyhow? This forum is almost as dead as the Brewers forum!

    Which by the way has been claimed by Phillies fans. I will soon be overrunning it with YouTube video's of feral cats and drunken fistfights. Much like the Vet.
    "I go all out. And I'm going to bring that to the table every day, in good times and bad times." - Eric Byrnes

    "...far too many people want to retroactively apply today's standards to yesterday's players, as if they played the game under the same assumptions and just heedlessly and obdurately plowed on in their own groove." - Los Bravos

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluesky5 View Post
    Where the heck are all the Cardinal fans anyhow? This forum is almost as dead as the Brewers forum!

    Which by the way has been claimed by Phillies fans. I will soon be overrunning it with YouTube video's of feral cats and drunken fistfights. Much like the Vet.
    Nothin' doing right now. There are lots of Cardinal fans at BBF, not sure why they don't poste here more often.
    1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

    1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

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  8. #48
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    I always wondered why there wasn't more activity on our Cardinals site too. But, being a diehard Cards fan I am also to blame for not posting more. I will work to change that.

    Any talk on whether or not we are going to sign anyone else? I see we got Choate and Wiggy, and was sad to see Skip go. I hope he does well and gets a lot of playing time with the Dodgers. He was always one of my favorite Birds while he was playing. I was hoping that Berkman would go back to Houston and DH, but they just signed Pena and may not be looking at Lance anymore. I hope he also lands somewhere he can get plenty of playing time. Those two were great clubhouse guys, and important pieces to that 2011 Championship team. Has Lohse been signed by someone? I liked him while living in Minneapolis and he came up as a baby faced kid.

    Like Matthew C. posted a while ago, I also like our chances this year with that 6 or so possible starters we have going into camp. Some real good young arms there! I am real excited about 2013, and I hope we can get some good posting here on our site! Go Cardinals!
    "It ain't braggin' if you can do it." Dizzy Dean

  9. #49
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    There never has been much activity here, so by default I think we all avoid it a little. Collectively, that deadens the board to the point it is now.I'm as diehard as they come, born and raised there, attended 5 different Series, Cetennial Celebration, watch them play at Wrigley, New Comiskey or whatever they call it now, Riverfront and Great American, etc.

    But starting a thread that might get three/four other posters? Not my style. You have to start somewhere though...
    "Herman Franks to Sal Yvars to Bobby Thomson. Ralph Branca to Bobby Thomson to Helen Rita... cue Russ Hodges."

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew C. View Post
    1. The Cards had an insane amount of regular season injuries all three seasons - more than typical. I know, the Phillies were too, etc. and they have some room to gripe as well.
    The Cards were well below average in games missed to the DL in the last 3 seasons
    http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index...-list-summary/

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by filihok View Post
    The Cards were well below average in games missed to the DL in the last 3 seasons
    http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index...-list-summary/
    Surprising numbers - I'd like to see how injuries for key or top players shape up. A lot of of injuries to big names.
    Last edited by Bothrops Atrox; 12-24-2012 at 12:25 PM.
    1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

    1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

    1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014 2015


    The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
    The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

  12. #52
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    I was thinking the same thing when I looked at that graph. Losing Waino all 2011, then Carp almost all this year are two major subtractions from a rotation. Not too mention the loss of Berkman almost all year, Furcal down the stretch, Craig to 2 DL stints, and in 2011 when Holliday had his appendectomy and the frequent stints on the DL that Freese had in those first couple years...

    Those are some big producers missing from the field. I still think it is amazing that our team has done as well as it has through all that! Cardinals fans could certainly appreciate Phillies' fans pain having to go without Howard and Utley for as long as they did.
    "It ain't braggin' if you can do it." Dizzy Dean

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