2012 Mets Season Thread

[milladrive]

I'm still waiting to read the humorous posts.....

I think the humor to which I was referrring was the delayed reaction I had to Pauly's statement, as well as Blue's follow-up. My failing was to not recognize in the same sentence the escalating personal debate between Paulypal and CMG, which I eventually addressed in the reply to you.

My timing was probably a little off.

As well, I think some folks are probably still mourning the loss of José Reyes. There is another thread for that, and, although, it's still a very small sample size, Tejada is currently doing better than Reyes. It's very possible that the team itself feels a bit more coherent without Reyes. Tejada's not the same type of spotlight stealer, so it's possible the rest of the team has been picking up the lost slack as a unit. This I find refreshing. It may not last all season, but right now I find it refreshing.

[Ralf]

I think the humor to which I was referrring was the delayed reaction I had to Pauly's statement, as well as Blue's follow-up. My failing was to not recognize in the same sentence the escalating personal debate between Paulypal and CMG, which I eventually addressed in the reply to you.

My timing was probably a little off.

As well, I think some folks are probably still mourning the loss of José Reyes. There is another thread for that, and, although, it's still a very small sample size, Tejada is currently doing better than Reyes. It's very possible that the team itself feels a bit more coherent without Reyes. Tejada's not the same type of spotlight stealer, so it's possible the rest of the team has been picking up the lost slack as a unit. This I find refreshing. It may not last all season, but right now I find it refreshing.

Totally agree with this.

[milladrive]

First inning and I'm already seeing yet another "quality" start by Pelfrey. This is a guy who, imho, should be selling real estate, picking up sanitation, or anything other than starting for the Mets. I've so had enough of Mike Pelfrey.

[milladrive]

First inning and I'm already seeing yet another "quality" start by Pelfrey. This is a guy who, imho, should be selling real estate, picking up sanitation, or anything other than starting for the Mets. I've so had enough of Mike Pelfrey.

Okay, so he's settled in. A lot of nice ground ball outs. If he can make it through the sixth without giving up a run (despite the leadoff base hit), I'll be satisfied.

EDIT: Okay, so today I'm surprisingly satisfied with Pelfrey's start. I've still had enough of him and wish he would be dealt to another team, but at least today he's given his team a chance to win.

[milladrive]

Damn......

[Blue387]

The Mets bullpen this afternoon:

[milladrive]

The Mets bullpen this afternoon:

Heh, appropriate clip.

I know hindsight is 20/20, but I said it to myself at the time, so I'll repeat it now here. I think Collins should've removed Ramirez when Rollins and Pence both singled with one out in the eighth. Instead, he left him in, and the game took the turn it took.

Naturally, I'd rather lose 8-2 than 3-2, but I think not keeping an extremely short leash on Ramirez is what did the most damage. Very unusual for Collins, for we all know he rightfully considers every single game an important one. There was no "taking one for the team" involved here, so I can't help but wonder what Terry was thinking.

[Ralf]

Tough loss. This one would have been nice. Duda's misread in the 7th started it, then Ruben's brain fart continued it, and the bullpen sealed it. Good learning day for these young guys. Go get the Braves tomorrow.

[EasilyFound]

Very painful watching Acosta. I understand that walks with the bases loaded happen, but I can't stand watching a pitcher not challenge a hitter when doing so is necessary. Couldn't get the last 9 outs to sweep the Phil in Philly. Simply, a bad loss.

[Paulypal]

If you need to be an excellent fielder and hitter to be called a Major League player, then about half of the player in the MLB don't deserve to be called "players."



You do realize that RF is a difficult position to play for someone who barely played there in the minors, right? He's a LF/1B. Duda is a below-average fielder, so...that makes him not a Major League player? Why don't we send the likes of Duda, Wright, and Murphy down to the minors since they're average to below-average fielders. Get a grip, man. You're definition of a "player" is blatantly obtuse.



Did you really not get the point? Are you seriously taking things out of context? Are they players or not? Jeter, Cano, and Wright are bad fielders - they must not be your definition of a "player", though.



What in the world are you talking about? I'm not anointing Duda as the next Albert Pujols. Saying Duda is an above-average player isn't a stretch. Various scouts such as Law and Sickels see Duda as a good hitter, but poor fielder down the stretch who is a starter caliber player. They must be working for the Mets, though -- since all I read is their PR clippings.



Good lord, do you realize how weak the SS position truly is? If Tejada were a third basemen I would agree, but he isn't. He hits as well as your average utility player and is a good fielder. That is fringe starter/ bench player worthy.



He is.

Basically the fact that you think Duda (or anyone else thinks the same) that Duda is an above average player deems this argument as over as over can be for me because I have no clue what they are looking at.

[Paulypal]

Totally disagree. Some people are just know-it-alls. "Duda sucks, Tejada sucks, Thole sucks, the Mets are AAA team, Alderson doesn't know what he's doing, Jose was the greatest player ever" and on and on..... The schtick is tired.

I'm actually really excited about this year. I want to see how each of these young guys makes it through another full season BEFORE deciding anything. Others seem to know-it-all already.......and without any factual data either.

Assuming your at least partially directing this at me I will respond.

First of all I never for one second consider myself a know it all. Maybe it appears that way because much of what I say and have said in the past about this team has been accurate or has become true in the past 4 years.

When I first started posting on the Met forum it was after the 2008 season (I used to come here and discuss hitting on that forum). I knew or at least felt that the Met window was closed after 2008. 2006-2008 was their WS window. I would come on here pre 2009 season about that I thought they were done, and needed to re tool in certain areas. Lets just say it wasnt a popular opinion on here.

I know I dont come on here with a popular opinion because quite simply I remove myself from being a Met fan and look at the team objectively. I have said it a million times - if the Mets folded today - I still love baseball and would care about it just as much. I dont come on here and see the mirages that other people see. I dont see the Duda mirage. Nor will I talk myself into it. I dont see this young core of talented kids that need time to flourish. I dont see it.

Do I drive the point home? Hell yes. Why? Well for one sometimes I am astounded of things I read on here. I am not sure I am getting the same channel as some others. So I voice my opinion (thats what the forum is about in my opinion). Also I think a good back and fourth disagreement is fun. Baseball "arguments" are usually fun...or at least should be. Its baseball, not lymphoma.

My saying that this is a AAA team and Tejada, Thole, Duda, Gee, etc etc etc are not MLB players yet is not a real knock on the players. Its more of a reflection on what ownership has done. This is the team they have told the fans to hang their hats on. If I have any anger at all - it never comes from what I see on the field because quite honestly I dont expect anything on the field from most of these players. If you dont expect anything you cant be disappointed...and I am never disappointed. If I have any anger or disgust its 100% directed at Wilpon for trying to sell this team to the fans as a real team.

Like you I do not think the Mets should have signed Reyes for anything near what he got, nor do I blame Alderson for any of it.

Its obvious my opinion angers some, and some have gotten personal. Which is fine. What was said about me recently by another forum member doesnt really bother me at all. I understand how much time, effort and emotion fans put into a team. Believe me I do. Then when someone knocks something that your pouring your soul into everyday it can get you po'd. I get it. With that said - when its time to feel differently I will. It will be time...when its time. Its not time yet. Hanging my fandom hopes on names like Tejada, Duda, Thole, Gee are not going to happen. I root for them, hope they win, but I dont drink Kool Aid. I have followed baseball religiously for 40 years, and have seen some pretty poor Mets teams as well as some really good ones (as many others have). I refuse to be blind fan, and think because a players shirt says Mets on the front that suddenly they are good. I think of myself as a much smarter fan than that. So should you.


Nobody on this forum wants me to be wrong (or has wanted me to be wrong) more than me, but I see an organization that has flounded for over 4 years now from top to bottom. Hopefully they prove me wrong, but if taking an honest look at the Mets makes me a know it all then so be it.

[Ralf]

Basically the fact that you think Duda (or anyone else thinks the same) that Duda is an above average player deems this argument as over as over can be for me because I have no clue what they are looking at.

Just curious, you're analysis is so hard-hitting and factually backed, what organization have you worked for again?

I ask because all I hear from most people who have actually been in the business of baseball player development is that Duda is a so-called "late bloomer." They all seem to say that he is an everyday major leaguer too. So odd ......hmm, I just don't know who to believe......

As an admitted layperson and fan, what I see from Duda is a guy that is learning an entirely new position in the big leagues. With that comes growing pains such as learning to read the ball off the bat which is his biggest issue right now. Also, and unfortunately, the Mets are paying someone $18m a year to play a position that is probably best suited for Duda (he even has admitted to his comfort level in LF).

I'm sure you'll respond again with another post with amazing statistical analysis and dazzle us with your "accurate" scouting prowess that will surely put me in my place.....

[Ralf]

As a layperson and fan, here is what I see from this team.

Speaking only of the 25 man roster, I see a team that is missing 5 easily achievable components before being able to consistently compete for the division. And I don't think I'm breaking much new ground here either...

1. A veteran RH hitting RFer who can bat 5th and be a power threat. In this scenario, Duda would be able to move over to a position that is probably more suited for his game (LF). -- take Bay's role
2. A veteran 3rd starter. Someone who can eat up the innings that Pelfrey does but actually keep you in every game. -- take Pelfrey's role
3. A veteran RH hitting bench player who can spell Davis on occasion and provide some additional pop off the bench. -- take Turner's role
4. A steady veteran reliever who has been in the postseason and performed well. (ie Darren Oliver type) -- take Batista's role
5. A RH hitting veteran catcher that has a decent bat. Someone who can play 60+/- games to Thole's 100+/-. -- take Nickeas' role

Other than that, imo, its all about reps and health for the young guys. I think this can happen relatively soon too over the next offseason assuming we keep Hairston and Cedeno, and Torres becomes more of a 4th OFer. By next year we should have some really good depth too at AAA in terms of starting pitching and relievers.

[Gr8Beldini]

I like watching them play for Collins. I don't expect great things this year but there is something to this group that I like and if all things break right it could be an enjoyable season. I doubt it will be a playoff season but it can be fun if it seems like the team has something to build on. I'd like to see them pick some young, fast guys that have underachieved for other teams. Guys like Julio Borbon in Texas or Eric Young in Colorado. Neither guys are or will be stars, but they could likely be picked up without giving up too much.

[CokeMachineGlow]

Just curious, you're analysis is so hard-hitting and factually backed, what organization have you worked for again?

I ask because all I hear from most people who have actually been in the business of baseball player development is that Duda is a so-called "late bloomer." They all seem to say that he is an everyday major leaguer too. So odd ......hmm, I just don't know who to believe......

As an admitted layperson and fan, what I see from Duda is a guy that is learning an entirely new position in the big leagues. With that comes growing pains such as learning to read the ball off the bat which is his biggest issue right now. Also, and unfortunately, the Mets are paying someone $18m a year to play a position that is probably best suited for Duda (he even has admitted to his comfort level in LF).

I'm sure you'll respond again with another post with amazing statistical analysis and dazzle us with your "accurate" scouting prowess that will surely put me in my place.....

I like this guy.

[CokeMachineGlow]

Basically the fact that you think Duda (or anyone else thinks the same) that Duda is an above average player deems this argument as over as over can be for me because I have no clue what they are looking at.

Okay, we'll agree to disagree at this point.

I'm just curious on whether or not the aforementioned "players" are "players" in your definition. You seemed to ignore that point -- and many others -- entirely.

[mandrake]

Okay, we'll agree to disagree at this point.

I'm just curious on whether or not the aforementioned "players" are "players" in your definition. You seemed to ignore that point -- and many others -- entirely.

Did you mean these players: Jeter, Cano, and Wright are bad fielders - they must not be your definition of a "player", though.

Jeter is a bit old for SS. His range is diminished, but he is not now, nor ever was, a 'bad fielder'. Cano is so-so with the glove, but can hit a ton. But David Wright ??? I was at Petco watching the Mets in SD and listening to the Padres announcers on the radio (I think one was Jerry Coleman) and they were saying Wright would start on any team in the National League, and was one of the best 3rd baseman in all of MLB. They also said the Padres would take him that very day if the Mets grew tired of him.

[CokeMachineGlow]

Paulypal's definition of a player is someone who can field and hit. If one is proficient in one area, but is poor in another Paulypal considers them a non-Major League Player. It's a blatantly obtuse definition to get his point across, but maybe he has another explanation.

[Blue387]

Jason Bay makes an amazing grab at the GEICO sign at Turner Field.

September 16, 2011
http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=19282013

April 16, 2012
http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=20671735

[milladrive]

That was an Endy!

And, Gee, what a terrific performance tonight.

[Blue387]

And now Jason Bay hits a home run!

Tomorrow, every Mets batter will get a finger broken.

[Paulypal]

Paulypal's definition of a player is someone who can field and hit. If one is proficient in one area, but is poor in another Paulypal considers them a non-Major League Player. It's a blatantly obtuse definition to get his point across, but maybe he has another explanation.

The old mis quote so I look correct angle. Excellent

I said the player doesn't have to be a gold glover but look like he has done it before. Duda doesn't

Duda is not a MLB player. My opinion. He is on the a team that affords him the opportunity to play because of lack of talent not because of Duda's excess of talent Hopefully I am wrong

[Paulypal]

Just curious, you're analysis is so hard-hitting and factually backed, what organization have you worked for again?

I ask because all I hear from most people who have actually been in the business of baseball player development is that Duda is a so-called "late bloomer." They all seem to say that he is an everyday major leaguer too. So odd ......hmm, I just don't know who to believe......

As an admitted layperson and fan, what I see from Duda is a guy that is learning an entirely new position in the big leagues. With that comes growing pains such as learning to read the ball off the bat which is his biggest issue right now. Also, and unfortunately, the Mets are paying someone $18m a year to play a position that is probably best suited for Duda (he even has admitted to his comfort level in LF).

I'm sure you'll respond again with another post with amazing statistical analysis and dazzle us with your "accurate" scouting prowess that will surely put me in my place.....

Let's see what people in the business have said in the past:

Alex Ochoa - 5 tools can't miss
Lastings Milledge - not trade able. Can't miss
Strawberry- the black Ted Williams
Tim Leary. - the next Seaver
Greg Jeffries - Ty Cobb like. Batting champ

Meaningless

[CokeMachineGlow]

What? It's not about whay the Mets' FO has said in the past, it's about the various scouting reports and analysis done by people outside of the organization. Every team is going to hype their prospects - that's a fact in baseball.

[Paulypal]

What? It's not about whay the Mets' FO has said in the past, it's about the various scouting reports and analysis done by people outside of the organization. Every team is going to hype their prospects - that's a fact in baseball.

If its possible for you to remember correctly instead of selectively....the above mentioned players were all ranked very high by the "experts" not just the Met FO. Based upon recent events that is probably too high of an expectation.