Bad sportsmanship

[EdTarbusz]

I get your point but we're dealing with kids here. It's supposed to be fun not serious. Saying 'good game' is just a way of saying 'hey, thanks for coming out to play'. In fact you don't even have to say 'good game' if it bothers that much. You can just shake their hands to let them know that you appreciate them coming out to play. If you don't appreciate them coming out to play, then that's a dfferent story.

Just playing the game should be enough. it was when I was a kid and I don't think people my age are worse for it.

[tradosaurus]

As far as the OP, I'm not a big fan of going over the pitch limit being an automatic forfeit. That ends up penalizing the players on both teams for what could have been an honest mistake. To me it would seem more fair to take the pitcher out as soon as the mistake is noticed, eject the manager, and suspend him for the following game (or the first game of the next tournament if it's the last game.) That way the manager is held accountable, yet the players still get to play and earn their victory.

Once the infraction is brought to the umpire he has no choice but to enforce the tournament rules. The only option would have been for my son's coach not to say anything and then after the game inform the coach that his pitcher had gone over the pitch limit. That pitcher probably threw at least 70 pitches in that game and probably another 35 pitches the day before.

We abided by the rules and I would think it reasonable for the other team to have to abide by the rules.

[Jake Patterson]

Rather than worry about whether the handshake is empty or not, I'm interested to know if there are any situations where any of you would not have your team shake hands with the opposing team following a game.

40 seasons - 25 games a season (to make the math easy) 1,000 games - I never had a situation arise where I did not think it appropriate... I tried to have my players rise above the negatives that can happen in a game.... Now with that said my players did get into a fist fight once, while shaking hands.

It started with neof my Korean playesr who after breaking everyone up said ... "all I said coach was 'good game'" then he smiled...
I asked another player from Korea what he said - he said "something like your mother smells like goat." The whole team got a good laugh - and the player sat the bench for a game.

[azmatsfan]

Once the infraction is brought to the umpire he has no choice but to enforce the tournament rules. The only option would have been for my son's coach not to say anything and then after the game inform the coach that his pitcher had gone over the pitch limit. That pitcher probably threw at least 70 pitches in that game and probably another 35 pitches the day before.

We abided by the rules and I would think it reasonable for the other team to have to abide by the rules.

I didn't mean to imply your coach did anything wrong. I would have done the same. I was referring to the rule itself. Well, not the rule so much, but the consequences. It's just a shame that the coach's actions resulted in the kids for both teams not being able to finish out the game.

[Roothog66]

Well, coming from the coach-pitch side of things, there are times after the game when I hear players from both teams say "Hey, did we win?". So walking along, high-fiving, and saying "good game" is just another part of the post-game ritual. By the way, we also include a post-game prayer at the mound, almost always led by one of our eight year old players. (they quickly volunteer just as the game ends). The opposing team has always joined us. However, I realize this might not work in all areas.
And just in case it matters, we've been successful on the scoreboard as well.

John, I have to say that the postgame prayer at this age bothers me. Growing up, I played on several teams that did this (and I am from the south). I always joined in depite the fact that I was an atheist and it made me feel very uncomfortable (my parents were good Southern Baptists). The only thing that would have made me feel more uncomfortable would have been feeling I wasn't part of the team.

[tradosaurus]

John, I have to say that the postgame prayer at this age bothers me. Growing up, I played on several teams that did this (and I am from the south). I always joined in depite the fact that I was an atheist and it made me feel very uncomfortable (my parents were good Southern Baptists). The only thing that would have made me feel more uncomfortable would have been feeling I wasn't part of the team.

I'm a Christian and the post game prayer bothers me also because there are coaches praying to God while living in open adultery. Personally I think prayer should be left out of sports since God doesn't give a crap who wins or loses especially in sports which are played on Sunday.

[EdTarbusz]

I would tell a coach in no uncertain terms that my 8 year old son was not to take part in a post-game prayer. I don't think sports is the proper place for religous displays.

[leecemark]

--Unless its a church team I'd agree that prayers have no place in the team routine. You have no idea what all your kids beliefs may be. I really don't understand the dozens of posts against handshaking though. We already know you think its pointless, Ed. Unless you think it is shomehow actively harmfull to the kids - and I can't imagine how it would be - then cusading against it and turning the thread into one long argument between you and everyone else is pretty pointless. BTW this is not new. We did it when I played Little League in the 60s and the kids I coach now do it pretty much the same way. So far I've never had a kid complain about it or any issues between kids on the other team during the postgame hand shakes.

[EdTarbusz]

-- We already know you think its pointless, Ed. Unless you think it is shomehow actively harmfull to the kids - and I can't imagine how it would be - then cusading against it and turning the thread into one long argument between you and everyone else is pretty pointless. .

Then what is the purpose of a message board? What's wrong with responding to other peoples responses?

[songtitle]

Ed, have you been in Tuscaloosa very long? BTW, I thought they all prayed to Bear Bryant.

[EdTarbusz]

Ed, have you been in Tuscaloosa very long? BTW, I thought they all prayed to Bear Bryant.

I've been here for about 10 years. I'm a transplant from the mid-west. I'm not sure about Bear Bryant but Nick Saban is approaching deity status here.

[leecemark]

Then what is the purpose of a message board? What's wrong with responding to other peoples responses?

--Nothing wrong with it. I just don't understand why you are so opposed to handshaking that you need to repeat the point over and over again.

[EdTarbusz]

--Nothing wrong with it. I just don't understand why you are so opposed to handshaking that you need to repeat the point over and over again.

Because I'm commenting on other peoples comments. I opposed to it because I don't think it teaches kids anything of value. Other people here think it teaches respect and sportamanship and I disagree with them.

[PhilliesPhan22]

It reinforces in that generation (The Everyone-gets-a-trophy/Me First Generation) more of what will be their downfall; that they will be rewarded simply for showing up and not putting forth a winning effort. There is an entire generation (those 23 and younger) who have been raised to believe that they are super special just because they are alive and that life owes them something. Those boys learned a terrible lesson in sportsmanship. If I were coaching that team, they would have played the game until the end, win or lose. Winning doesn't feel good unless you earn it.

[EdTarbusz]

It reinforces in that generation (The Everyone-gets-a-trophy/Me First Generation) more of what will be their downfall; that they will be rewarded simply for showing up and not putting forth a winning effort. There is an entire generation (those 23 and younger) who have been raised to believe that they are super special just because they are alive and that life owes them something. .

I think the generation you mention are people who were born after about 1975 (about 37 and younger), but it became a lot more pronounced in the 1990s.

[Cannonball]

It reinforces in that generation (The Everyone-gets-a-trophy/Me First Generation) more of what will be their downfall; that they will be rewarded simply for showing up and not putting forth a winning effort. There is an entire generation (those 23 and younger) who have been raised to believe that they are super special just because they are alive and that life owes them something. Those boys learned a terrible lesson in sportsmanship. If I were coaching that team, they would have played the game until the end, win or lose. Winning doesn't feel good unless you earn it.

PhilliesPhan, the "earn it" statement is troubling. One team, for whatever reason including just not knowing the rule, violated the rules that the game was being held under. Therefore, the team that won did earn it. This has noting to do with the "Age of Entitlement." It has to do with rules of the game/tournament and to suggest that the team that won didn't earn their win is wrong imo.

[jacjacatk]

It reinforces in that generation (The Everyone-gets-a-trophy/Me First Generation) more of what will be their downfall; that they will be rewarded simply for showing up and not putting forth a winning effort. There is an entire generation (those 23 and younger) who have been raised to believe that they are super special just because they are alive and that life owes them something. Those boys learned a terrible lesson in sportsmanship. If I were coaching that team, they would have played the game until the end, win or lose. Winning doesn't feel good unless you earn it.

I think the generation you mention are people who were born after about 1975 (about 37 and younger), but it became a lot more pronounced in the 1990s.

My dad is convinced this problem started in the mid-late '60s. Not coincidentally, his dad thought it began in the early '50s.

There have always been, and always will be, people who fit your description. I've known a large number of people from my generation (I'm 42) through sports (and otherwise), and a lot of kids (now young men) through my kids' sports, and the vast majority of them don't fit this description.

[EdTarbusz]

My dad is convinced this problem started in the mid-late '60s. Not coincidentally, his dad thought it began in the early '50s.

There have always been, and always will be, people who fit your description. I've known a large number of people from my generation (I'm 42) through sports (and otherwise), and a lot of kids (now young men) through my kids' sports, and the vast majority of them don't fit this description.

I think there are about as many who have a hard time adjusting to adulthood as there are who don't because of constantly being rewarded as kids (at least that I've come across). Both at work and at school I come across people, especially in their 20s, who have a lot harder of a time dealing with adversity and receiving less positive motivation than I saw when I was in my 20s. I'm 47 and didn't grow up with the idea of constantly reinforcing kids self-esteem. As I said earlier, I think this is sokething that came along with baby boomer parents.

I think winning a game on technicality because a rules violation probably sends a bad message to kids and is something that contributes to sports being less fun for kids today than they were in the past when things were less regimented and a lot less adult driven.

[HYP]

Agreed...this would be a good thing for kids to see and emulate. You channel your aggression and competitive spirit into the game, and when the game is over you set that aside and pay respect to your opponent, whether you've won or lost. For my money, that's what "real men" do.

They just played a 3 hour game. They arrived at the park 3 to 5 hours before game time. So that puts them there between 6 to 8 hours and they have to do this 162 times a year. Not to mention all of the practice time they put in and travel. I'm thinking shaking hands at the end is a little to much to ask. I know when I am done with my work day I don't shake all of the guys I work with hands. I just want to get home.

[EdTarbusz]

They just played a 3 hour game. They arrived at the park 3 to 5 hours before game time. So that puts them there between 6 to 8 hours and they have to do this 162 times a year. Not to mention all of the practice time they put in and travel. I'm thinking shaking hands at the end is a little to much to ask. I know when I am done with my work day I don't shake all of the guys I work with hands. I just want to get home.

I think if pro baseball players want to show respect for their opponents they should take the opponent to dinner and pick up the check.

[HYP]

Yes, helicopter parenting, while usually well-intentioned, can be silly at best and downright harmful to kids at worst. I see that all the time and my wife and I often wonder at how things have changed. It does seem to be a baby-boomer thing, although there are a lot of other factors at play. Seems like the days of running out the door with your glove, ball, and bat on a Saturday afternoon to meet a bunch of kids at the diamond, with your Mom yelling out after you "be home by suppertime" are largely gone. And that's too bad.

But I still maintain that shaking hands with your opponent on the ballfield after the game is good thing.

Not just directed at you but others as well. Just quoting your post. IMO, a helicopter parent is someone who is always questioning the coach, telling his/her kid how to swing, throw during a game or practice. Not one who is showing their kid how to be a good human. That's their job. So if a parent or a coach tells you to shake your opponents hand out of respect after a game. They are showing them how to be a good human. How to "fit" into society. My son had a banner in his room, that I had made that read 4 things.

1) Play Hard
2)Learn A Lot
3)Be a Good Human
4)Enjoy the Journey

If that makes me a helicopter parent then I am glad I was. My kid turned out great and has good friends and takes care of business. He is now gone to college and taking care of himself and doing a great job of it. On his spring break he came home and actually thanked me for teaching him what I have taught him. Brought a tear to my eye. I then punched him in the arm and told him to quit being a girl.

[EdTarbusz]

. So if a parent or a coach tells you to shake your opponents hand out of respect after a game. They are showing them how to be a good human. .

I agree with half of what you say. Teaching a kid about etiquette is a parents job, not a coaches. I think a coach is there to teach about the game, not to give life lessons. Especially with younger kids.

[HYP]

What I posted above is what I think something like a mandatory handshake rule teaches a kid. I think forcing empty gestures on a kid is detrimental to them.

Teach them that it is not an empty gesture then they will not being demonstrating an empty gesture. We teach our players that there is more to life then just winning or playing the game. That there should be respect for your opponent and that the hand shake at the end is one way of showing that respect. I am sure there are times when they do not feel that "respect" in their hearts all the time but they should still demonstrate it.

[EdTarbusz]

Teach them that it is not an empty gesture then they will not being demonstrating an empty gesture. We teach our players that there is more to life then just winning or playing the game. That there should be respect for your opponent and that the hand shake at the end is one way of showing that respect. I am sure there are times when they do not feel that "respect" in their hearts all the time but they should still demonstrate it.

I don't agree with that. I think the best way to show respect to your opponents is to play hard and play fair. I don't think a mandatory hand shake shows any kind of respect. I think the way to teach a kid that a hand shake is not an empty gesture is to let them do it on their own without being told to do it. I think making it mandatory makes it meaningless.

[HYP]

I agree with half of what you say. Teaching a kid about etiquette is a parents job, not a coaches. I think a coach is there to teach about the game, not to give life lessons. Especially with younger kids.

IMO, part of teaching the game is teaching respect for the game and part of that respect is demonstrating respect for your opponent and one of the few ways to show respect towards your opponent is to shake their hands after the game.

It is something we do and teach. Honestly, if you don't like it, it doesn't affect me. If a player on a team I coached refused to shake hands after a game. He would not be playing on my team.