Bad sportsmanship

[michhood622]

Umm that I do not know. I'm not too sure where Trad is from and our score was 4-1. I live right north of Houston in Tomball TX and the tourney was in Conroe, TX which is real close to Houston.

[skipper5]

I intend to purge myself of meaningless rituals.
I will no longer open doors for women.
Instead of saying "God bless you" when someone sneezes, I will say "I hope that isn't the sign of an incipient bronchial infection".
I remember deconstructing the meaning of meaninglessness......when I was a sophomore in college.
Most people get over it by the time they reach responsible adulthood.

Next topic: is it bad sportsmanship when the jerky kids spit in their hands prior to the mandatory meaningless post-game handshake?

[Cannonball]

Skip, I was thinking about giving up the meaningless ritual of leaving tips. BTW, you can count on one hand the number of times I spit in my hand before shaking hands!

[EdTarbusz]

Next topic: is it bad sportsmanship when the jerky kids spit in their hands prior to the mandatory meaningless post-game handshake?

It's not discouraged?

[tradosaurus]

I know that they are, but my point is that they shouldn't be. If kids want to shake hands fine, but making them do it doesn't teach them anything in my opinion. I don't think handshaking has anything to do with sportsmanship or respect. If I were a kid today there is no way I would want to shake hands with another team if they were acting like jerks during the game. If I were a coach I wouldn't make them do it.

Do you let your kids do what they feel like? You must have an interesting household.

[tradosaurus]

We played in a 13U tourney but were on the other end of the decision. I know that most people are about the W but I really think our kids won that day. We were winning 4-1 when the game was called for our mistake. And it was a mistake. I was super proud of my son as he was the first kid to get our 2nd place trophy and he immediatley went over to shake each one of the "winners" hands. Most of the kids would not look my son in the eye and a few said hey you won. But hey the kids got their 1st place trophy. YEAH! here is a excert from our head coach:

I was very sorry to hear how it all went down yesterday. Honestly, at the end of the day, the rule at every other age level and other sanctions (nations) is 27 outs in a weekend. For some reason in usssa when you move to 13s it is 24 outs for the weekend. With the last out Zack pitched, it took him to 25. Not having played any USSSA at 13's ever before, it was an honest mistake on our part and as head coach I take full responsibility. That being said, I will also be discussing this further w the tournament director since Austin actually asked the umpires before he put Zack back out there. The rule was 24 outs, but the umpires and tourney director should have known that and been able to tell our coaches, especially since they asked about that specifically. As far as the way the other team handled it, it is not the way I would have chosen to, because in my opinion the psyche and development of the kids is more important than the engraving on a trophy. I don't think the way it was handled was the right way for the kids on either team. From everything i heard, it sounds like our parents and players handled it with extreme dignity, which I am very proud of.


At the end of the day, the most disappointing thing is that our boys were not properly rewarded for what they accomplished on the field. I am sure there are all kinds of lessons from this for all of us. Not sure what all of those are at this point, but I do know that the trophy is just a trophy and what the boys did on the field is what matters most. Though the trophy doesn't say it, we all know that our boys won that tournament. I also know that this situation will help fuel these boys on to future success.


I will be contacting the tourney director to discuss further. That being said, the ruling probably will not change. My hope is that we don't dwell on it, but use it as a stepping stone for our boys and move forward quickly knowing that we have most of our tourneys in front of us. One of the things I preach consistently is that adversity isn't what makes you who you are, it's how you respond to it. I think we will look back on this weekend as a big turning point for our boys, knowing this is what fueled them on to an amazing season. Looking forward to the days ahead with a great group of young men and parents. Thanks for your understanding and commitment. Please let me know if you have any other questions.

In the end you will never know if you really would have won. The game we played before the championship game (that was called on forfeit in our favor) we were down 3-1 in the last inning against a very good pitcher. We ended up winning 4-3.

Your coach learned a valuable less which is to understand each tournament specific rules. Do you think your son's coach wouldn't have made an issue if the opposing team's pitcher would have pitches over the maximum innings allowed? I had know problem with our team winning the championship by forfeit because there are rules in place for a reason and knowing those rules is just as important as playing the game.

[tradosaurus]

Mich, were you the team playing against Trade's team?

As I read his post I was wondering the same thing but their coaches showed class by shaking hands with the opposing team.

In fact during the game some of us parents were commenting on a few of the good plays the other team were making.

However, although they were winning 3-1 with two innings left it was possible we could have come back and beat them like we did the team before.

[EdTarbusz]

Do you let your kids do what they feel like? You must have an interesting household.

I'm pretty strict as a father. I don't see any value in a mandatory handshake so if my kid didn't want to do it I wouldn't force him to do it.

[tradosaurus]

I'm pretty strict as a father. I don't see any value in a mandatory handshake so if my kid didn't want to do it I wouldn't force him to do it.

That's good. I'm not only a strict father but a strict coach.

[michhood622]

In the end you will never know if you really would have won. The game we played before the championship game (that was called on forfeit in our favor) we were down 3-1 in the last inning against a very good pitcher. We ended up winning 4-3.

Your coach learned a valuable less which is to understand each tournament specific rules. Do you think your son's coach wouldn't have made an issue if the opposing team's pitcher would have pitches over the maximum innings allowed? I had know problem with our team winning the championship by forfeit because there are rules in place for a reason and knowing those rules is just as important as playing the game.

Oh you must have misunderstood what I meant when I say we won. I was not talking about the game. I'm talking about how our boys responded to what happened. Our kids, coaches, and parents hold themselves to a higher standard. It is not about a 3 dollar peice of plastic. I just don't like the fact that everyone assumes that it is cheating instead of a mistake.

I do agree with you about anything can happen. We were down 3-0 in the game before the championship and we came back in the last inning to score 4. It is baseball and anything can happen.

Here is another scenario for you. I am the coach of my younger son's 8u machine pitch team. This past weekend we lost our first game to a team that was 0-4. They had a kid come home for a bang bang play at home. The kid slid head first into home. Blue called him safe, my coach went ballistic saying the kid went out of the baseline. He really did not, but a head first slide is an automatic out in our league.

Both of the opposing coaches rush homeplate and they are sceaming at these 13-14 yr old umpires, I just keep quiet and I know the oppsosing coaches pretty good. I tell them blue made his call and not to worry about it he is safe. Then after the inning I let the other coaches know about the headfirst slide being an automatic out. Then I let Blue know in a calm manner the rule also, so they can learn. After the game I let my coach know. I told him that we need to be above screaming at the umps and the other team. We need to set an example for these kids that we are trying to teach. It is not about the win and 1 run isnt going to matter. Oh we got dusted and run ruled that game.

The reason I tell you this is because I learn this from my 13U son's coaches, Our actions define who we are. I promise you that my son's coaches would not have made an issue of a kid going over 1 out.

[Hank1974]

I know of a coach that was aware of a pitcher who was about to break the inning limit.
He could have taken the win on a technicality. Instead, he called over to the other coach to let him know.
Whether the opposing coach consciously knew he was about to reach the limit is unknown, but I felt this was a very classy move by the other skip.

[mellowthunder]

"

Oh you must have misunderstood what I meant when I say we won. I was not talking about the game. I'm talking about how our boys responded to what happened. Our kids, coaches, and parents hold themselves to a higher standard. It is not about a 3 dollar peice of plastic. I just don't like the fact that everyone assumes that it is cheating instead of a mistake.

I do agree with you about anything can happen. We were down 3-0 in the game before the championship and we came back in the last inning to score 4. It is baseball and anything can happen.

Here is another scenario for you. I am the coach of my younger son's 8u machine pitch team. This past weekend we lost our first game to a team that was 0-4. They had a kid come home for a bang bang play at home. The kid slid head first into home. Blue called him safe, my coach went ballistic saying the kid went out of the baseline. He really did not, but a head first slide is an automatic out in our league.

Both of the opposing coaches rush homeplate and they are sceaming at these 13-14 yr old umpires, I just keep quiet and I know the oppsosing coaches pretty good. I tell them blue made his call and not to worry about it he is safe. Then after the inning I let the other coaches know about the headfirst slide being an automatic out. Then I let Blue know in a calm manner the rule also, so they can learn. After the game I let my coach know. I told him that we need to be above screaming at the umps and the other team. We need to set an example for these kids that we are trying to teach. It is not about the win and 1 run isnt going to matter. Oh we got dusted and run ruled that game.

The reason I tell you this is because I learn this from my 13U son's coaches, Our actions define who we are. I promise you that my son's coaches would not have made an issue of a kid going over 1 out.

Very well said. I completely agree with your approach.

[songtitle]

The forfeit rule is intended to publicly shame the coach that cheats and favors (possible) injury over winning.

It worked as intended in this case.

the opposing coaches refused to have their team shake hands with us

The opposing coach had 2 options during his shaming - the high road, or the low road. He doubled down on the low road.

At this point, the parents of his players have 2 options - stay or leave.

[skipper5]

I don't see any value in a mandatory handshake so if my kid didn't want to do it I wouldn't force him to do it.

I sincerely hope your son has more common sense and devotion to TEAM values than you do.
On the other hand, your objection to the hypocrisy of "mandatory" social rituals is so sophomoric that I'm beginning to suspect that you're spoofing us.
Shame on me for continuing to take the bait.

[EdTarbusz]

I sincerely hope your son has more common sense and devotion to TEAM values than you do.
On the other hand, your objection to the hypocrisy of "mandatory" social rituals is so sophomoric that I'm beginning to suspect that you're spoofing us.
Shame on me for continuing to take the bait.

What team value does a mandatory handshake evoke? Is it teaching that an insincere compliment is better than no compliment? That an empty gesture is better than no gesture? That mindless participation in something is better than learning to think for yourself?

[Jake Patterson]

What team value does a mandatory handshake evoke? Is it teaching that an insincere compliment is better than no compliment? That an empty gesture is better than no gesture? That mindless participation in something is better than learning to think for yourself?

Ed, persoanlly, I feel if you need to ask that question, there is no answer that we can give here within the limits of a discussion board that will allow you to see the value....

Maybe we should drop the topic.

[EdTarbusz]

Ed, persoanlly, I feel if you need to ask that question, there is no answer that we can give here within the limits of a discussion board that will allow you to see the value....

Maybe we should drop the topic.

What I posted above is what I think something like a mandatory handshake rule teaches a kid. I think forcing empty gestures on a kid is detrimental to them.

[Jake Patterson]

What I posted above is what I think something like a mandatory handshake rule teaches a kid. I think forcing empty gestures on a kid is detrimental to them.

Once again, you see it as empty I do not.

[mellowthunder]

What I posted above is what I think something like a mandatory handshake rule teaches a kid. I think forcing empty gestures on a kid is detrimental to them.

The game is not that serious, life is not that serious. If you feel like the other team sucked and they are not worthy of a handshake, then fair enough don't shake their hands. Most people can usually find something good to say without feeling like they're compromising their integrity.

[Cannonball]

What I posted above is what I think something like a mandatory handshake rule teaches a kid. I think forcing empty gestures on a kid is detrimental to them.

Ed, then I am sure you feel the same about the singing of our National Anthem before ball games and saying the Pledge of Allegiance at the start of the school day. In fact, the only worthy actions would then be those that the player thinks of themselves without any prompting.

[EdTarbusz]

The game is not that serious, life is not that serious. If you feel like the other team sucked and they are not worthy of a handshake, then fair enough don't shake their hands. Most people can usually find something good to say without feeling like they're compromising their integrity.

If I was on the that sucky team I would not want to hear a lot of insincere 'good game' from the other team. I think it would mean more coming from the winning team if they came over and said 'good game' because they wanted to and not because it was team or league rules.

[EdTarbusz]

Ed, then I am sure you feel the same about the singing of our National Anthem before ball games and saying the Pledge of Allegiance at the start of the school day. In fact, the only worthy actions would then be those that the player thinks of themselves without any prompting.

This is what I believe.

I'm sure it's another discussion but I am no fan of either the National Anthem before games or the Pledge of Allegience before school.

[azmatsfan]

Rather than worry about whether the handshake is empty or not, I'm interested to know if there are any situations where any of you would not have your team shake hands with the opposing team following a game.

[mellowthunder]

If I was on the that sucky team I would not want to hear a lot of insincere 'good game' from the other team. I think it would mean more coming from the winning team if they came over and said 'good game' because they wanted to and not because it was team or league rules.

I get your point but we're dealing with kids here. It's supposed to be fun not serious. Saying 'good game' is just a way of saying 'hey, thanks for coming out to play'. In fact you don't even have to say 'good game' if it bothers that much. You can just shake their hands to let them know that you appreciate them coming out to play. If you don't appreciate them coming out to play, then that's a dfferent story.

[azmatsfan]

As far as the OP, I'm not a big fan of going over the pitch limit being an automatic forfeit. That ends up penalizing the players on both teams for what could have been an honest mistake. To me it would seem more fair to take the pitcher out as soon as the mistake is noticed, eject the manager, and suspend him for the following game (or the first game of the next tournament if it's the last game.) That way the manager is held accountable, yet the players still get to play and earn their victory.