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Thread: Bad sportsmanship

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jake Patterson View Post

    Last, a topic like this isn't about how you feel as much as it is - what are you teaching the children. Not shaking hands on any field the players and coaches are ALWAYS viewed badly, those shaking hands are not.
    I know that they are, but my point is that they shouldn't be. If kids want to shake hands fine, but making them do it doesn't teach them anything in my opinion. I don't think handshaking has anything to do with sportsmanship or respect. If I were a kid today there is no way I would want to shake hands with another team if they were acting like jerks during the game. If I were a coach I wouldn't make them do it.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megunticook View Post

    I'm scratching my head over the idea that adult involvement has just been in the past 30 years. Yes, kids need to learn how to interact when alone with other kids. And there's probably a lot more "supervised" play now than there used to be. But if you coach a team, you are a role model, like it or not, and that carries extra responsibility to keep your behavior at a high standard.

    I do agree that parents do "hover" more than they used to, and a lot of kids are less independent. I do miss the casual pickup games I used to play with other kids, without adults around, and I think that has great value.
    When I grew up in the 70s there was little parental involvement when kids were playing outside. When I played on teams parents rarely came to games or involved themselves in their kids activities (outside of school). The helicopter parents didn't really start coming along until the early 80s in my experience. I think the Baby Boomers were the parents who really started over-doing it with involvement in their kids activities.

    My parents and most of my friends parents hated kids activities that had a lot of parental involvement (things like Cub Scouts).
    Last edited by EdTarbusz; 04-02-2012 at 02:47 PM.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jake Patterson View Post
    . I always went out of my way to be friendly, respectful, and curtious to everyone I met on the field. The game - if you're coaching - is about the kids. In 25 years I have met coaches who feel they way you do with some refusing to allow their players to shake hands. By the time they get to high school... this usually doesn't work out. There is nothing wrong with going out of your way to be friendly, polite, etc...

    .
    We'll have to disagree here. I don't think a mandatory handshake has anything to do with being friendly or respectful. I think it's a menaingless exercise.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by tradosaurus View Post
    When I coached 10U league team I would have our pitcher call time and go shake hands with the batter he just "plunked" to show that it was not intentional.

    I wish the teams in MLB would line up to shake hands after each game.

    The coach of the opposing team showed his players that if things don't go your way or you feel slighted then to go off and pout. Baseball is more than about winning or losing but how to deal with failure.
    I don't know why, but this makes me cringe when I see it. It's unnecessary and should be handled by just not reacting as to show up the batter or the batter making anything more out of it than what it is.

    My son's hit batters and unless he really blows a kid up, treats it as just another part of the game. As a batter, he does everything he can to simply lay the bat down and take his base without any reaction at all. Kids have done the come over and shake his hand thing and he gets this face like - Are you serious? I'm good - thanks.

    Anytime a coach draws attention to himself, other than in the process of positively dealing with his kids, the kids on the other side, the parents, opposing coaches, umpires, etc., they make themselves look like tools. Is it ok to be frustrated? To blow it? Sure. We're all human. Is it ever ok to make a conscious choice to not take the high road? No!
    There are two kinds of losers.....Those that don't do what they are told, and those that do only what they are told.

  5. #45
    While I don't object to the post-game handshake, as I think it's one of many parts of the youth sports culture that is neither harmful nor awe-inspiring, I do get annoyed with the insincere "good game" that usually accompanies the handshake. Maybe if it really was a good game, but too often I find that mantra being droned through the handshake line after a 12-0 drubbing, and it bugs me. I generally just give a smile and say something nebulous like "Thanks" or "Good luck", if I say anything at all.

  6. #46
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    I have always felt it my responsibility as a coach to help the kids grow as both people as well as baseball players. Taking the time to shake the hand of the other team (and the umpires and their coaches) is something I feel strongly is the right thing to do. I never view it as pro-forma either. It's a chance to thank the other team, the umpires and coaches for the taking the time to play this great game.

    It makes me remember a travel team down in San Diego, the San Diego Saints, a team of inner city boys coached by a really great guy. They are one of the worst baseball teams imaginable, as their coach takes anyone who wants to play no matter what their skill level (and some of those kids were really challenged). He insisted all of the boys line up after the game, take off their hat and bow to the crowd, with the boys thanking the crowd for coming to watch the boys play their games. The coach would always tell the crowd that he was thankful for parents who cared enough about their kids to come watch them play. I have never gone that far, but I really admired him for doing that.

    Every coach has their own style, but I really can't fathom why shaking the hands of the other team can be controversial.

    -JJA

  7. #47
    Yes, helicopter parenting, while usually well-intentioned, can be silly at best and downright harmful to kids at worst. I see that all the time and my wife and I often wonder at how things have changed. It does seem to be a baby-boomer thing, although there are a lot of other factors at play. Seems like the days of running out the door with your glove, ball, and bat on a Saturday afternoon to meet a bunch of kids at the diamond, with your Mom yelling out after you "be home by suppertime" are largely gone. And that's too bad.

    But I still maintain that shaking hands with your opponent on the ballfield after the game is good thing.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by apologist42 View Post
    While I don't object to the post-game handshake, as I think it's one of many parts of the youth sports culture that is neither harmful nor awe-inspiring, I do get annoyed with the insincere "good game" that usually accompanies the handshake. Maybe if it really was a good game, but too often I find that mantra being droned through the handshake line after a 12-0 drubbing, and it bugs me. I generally just give a smile and say something nebulous like "Thanks" or "Good luck", if I say anything at all.
    Good point.

    I don't like hearing kids say "good game" thirty times in a row as fast as they can (when there's 15 people they are shaking hands with) without ever looking at anyone while doing so. Parenting. Some kids know better than that at an early age. Others are left to figure a lot of stuff out on their own.
    There are two kinds of losers.....Those that don't do what they are told, and those that do only what they are told.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by michhood622 View Post
    We played in a 13U tourney but were on the other end of the decision. I know that most people are about the W but I really think our kids won that day. We were winning 4-1 when the game was called for our mistake. And it was a mistake. I was super proud of my son as he was the first kid to get our 2nd place trophy and he immediatley went over to shake each one of the "winners" hands. Most of the kids would not look my son in the eye and a few said hey you won. But hey the kids got their 1st place trophy. YEAH! here is a excert from our head coach:

    I was very sorry to hear how it all went down yesterday. Honestly, at the end of the day, the rule at every other age level and other sanctions (nations) is 27 outs in a weekend. For some reason in usssa when you move to 13s it is 24 outs for the weekend. With the last out Zack pitched, it took him to 25. Not having played any USSSA at 13's ever before, it was an honest mistake on our part and as head coach I take full responsibility. That being said, I will also be discussing this further w the tournament director since Austin actually asked the umpires before he put Zack back out there. The rule was 24 outs, but the umpires and tourney director should have known that and been able to tell our coaches, especially since they asked about that specifically. As far as the way the other team handled it, it is not the way I would have chosen to, because in my opinion the psyche and development of the kids is more important than the engraving on a trophy. I don't think the way it was handled was the right way for the kids on either team. From everything i heard, it sounds like our parents and players handled it with extreme dignity, which I am very proud of.


    At the end of the day, the most disappointing thing is that our boys were not properly rewarded for what they accomplished on the field. I am sure there are all kinds of lessons from this for all of us. Not sure what all of those are at this point, but I do know that the trophy is just a trophy and what the boys did on the field is what matters most. Though the trophy doesn't say it, we all know that our boys won that tournament. I also know that this situation will help fuel these boys on to future success.


    I will be contacting the tourney director to discuss further. That being said, the ruling probably will not change. My hope is that we don't dwell on it, but use it as a stepping stone for our boys and move forward quickly knowing that we have most of our tourneys in front of us. One of the things I preach consistently is that adversity isn't what makes you who you are, it's how you respond to it. I think we will look back on this weekend as a big turning point for our boys, knowing this is what fueled them on to an amazing season. Looking forward to the days ahead with a great group of young men and parents. Thanks for your understanding and commitment. Please let me know if you have any other questions.
    Mich, were you the team playing against Trade's team?
    Last edited by Jake Patterson; 04-02-2012 at 03:33 PM.
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  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by apologist42 View Post
    While I don't object to the post-game handshake, as I think it's one of many parts of the youth sports culture that is neither harmful nor awe-inspiring, I do get annoyed with the insincere "good game" that usually accompanies the handshake. Maybe if it really was a good game, but too often I find that mantra being droned through the handshake line after a 12-0 drubbing, and it bugs me. I generally just give a smile and say something nebulous like "Thanks" or "Good luck", if I say anything at all.
    Well, coming from the coach-pitch side of things, there are times after the game when I hear players from both teams say "Hey, did we win?". So walking along, high-fiving, and saying "good game" is just another part of the post-game ritual. By the way, we also include a post-game prayer at the mound, almost always led by one of our eight year old players. (they quickly volunteer just as the game ends). The opposing team has always joined us. However, I realize this might not work in all areas.
    And just in case it matters, we've been successful on the scoreboard as well.

  11. #51
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    Umm that I do not know. I'm not too sure where Trad is from and our score was 4-1. I live right north of Houston in Tomball TX and the tourney was in Conroe, TX which is real close to Houston.

  12. #52
    I intend to purge myself of meaningless rituals.
    I will no longer open doors for women.
    Instead of saying "God bless you" when someone sneezes, I will say "I hope that isn't the sign of an incipient bronchial infection".
    I remember deconstructing the meaning of meaninglessness......when I was a sophomore in college.
    Most people get over it by the time they reach responsible adulthood.

    Next topic: is it bad sportsmanship when the jerky kids spit in their hands prior to the mandatory meaningless post-game handshake?
    Last edited by skipper5; 04-02-2012 at 05:32 PM.
    Skip

  13. #53
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    Skip, I was thinking about giving up the meaningless ritual of leaving tips. BTW, you can count on one hand the number of times I spit in my hand before shaking hands!
    Granny said Sonny stick to your guns if you believe in something no matter what. Because it's better to be hated for who you are than to be loved for who you're not.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by skipper5 View Post

    Next topic: is it bad sportsmanship when the jerky kids spit in their hands prior to the mandatory meaningless post-game handshake?
    It's not discouraged?

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by EdTarbusz View Post
    I know that they are, but my point is that they shouldn't be. If kids want to shake hands fine, but making them do it doesn't teach them anything in my opinion. I don't think handshaking has anything to do with sportsmanship or respect. If I were a kid today there is no way I would want to shake hands with another team if they were acting like jerks during the game. If I were a coach I wouldn't make them do it.
    Do you let your kids do what they feel like? You must have an interesting household.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by michhood622 View Post
    We played in a 13U tourney but were on the other end of the decision. I know that most people are about the W but I really think our kids won that day. We were winning 4-1 when the game was called for our mistake. And it was a mistake. I was super proud of my son as he was the first kid to get our 2nd place trophy and he immediatley went over to shake each one of the "winners" hands. Most of the kids would not look my son in the eye and a few said hey you won. But hey the kids got their 1st place trophy. YEAH! here is a excert from our head coach:

    I was very sorry to hear how it all went down yesterday. Honestly, at the end of the day, the rule at every other age level and other sanctions (nations) is 27 outs in a weekend. For some reason in usssa when you move to 13s it is 24 outs for the weekend. With the last out Zack pitched, it took him to 25. Not having played any USSSA at 13's ever before, it was an honest mistake on our part and as head coach I take full responsibility. That being said, I will also be discussing this further w the tournament director since Austin actually asked the umpires before he put Zack back out there. The rule was 24 outs, but the umpires and tourney director should have known that and been able to tell our coaches, especially since they asked about that specifically. As far as the way the other team handled it, it is not the way I would have chosen to, because in my opinion the psyche and development of the kids is more important than the engraving on a trophy. I don't think the way it was handled was the right way for the kids on either team. From everything i heard, it sounds like our parents and players handled it with extreme dignity, which I am very proud of.


    At the end of the day, the most disappointing thing is that our boys were not properly rewarded for what they accomplished on the field. I am sure there are all kinds of lessons from this for all of us. Not sure what all of those are at this point, but I do know that the trophy is just a trophy and what the boys did on the field is what matters most. Though the trophy doesn't say it, we all know that our boys won that tournament. I also know that this situation will help fuel these boys on to future success.


    I will be contacting the tourney director to discuss further. That being said, the ruling probably will not change. My hope is that we don't dwell on it, but use it as a stepping stone for our boys and move forward quickly knowing that we have most of our tourneys in front of us. One of the things I preach consistently is that adversity isn't what makes you who you are, it's how you respond to it. I think we will look back on this weekend as a big turning point for our boys, knowing this is what fueled them on to an amazing season. Looking forward to the days ahead with a great group of young men and parents. Thanks for your understanding and commitment. Please let me know if you have any other questions.
    In the end you will never know if you really would have won. The game we played before the championship game (that was called on forfeit in our favor) we were down 3-1 in the last inning against a very good pitcher. We ended up winning 4-3.

    Your coach learned a valuable less which is to understand each tournament specific rules. Do you think your son's coach wouldn't have made an issue if the opposing team's pitcher would have pitches over the maximum innings allowed? I had know problem with our team winning the championship by forfeit because there are rules in place for a reason and knowing those rules is just as important as playing the game.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Jake Patterson View Post
    Mich, were you the team playing against Trade's team?
    As I read his post I was wondering the same thing but their coaches showed class by shaking hands with the opposing team.

    In fact during the game some of us parents were commenting on a few of the good plays the other team were making.

    However, although they were winning 3-1 with two innings left it was possible we could have come back and beat them like we did the team before.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by tradosaurus View Post
    Do you let your kids do what they feel like? You must have an interesting household.
    I'm pretty strict as a father. I don't see any value in a mandatory handshake so if my kid didn't want to do it I wouldn't force him to do it.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by EdTarbusz View Post
    I'm pretty strict as a father. I don't see any value in a mandatory handshake so if my kid didn't want to do it I wouldn't force him to do it.
    That's good. I'm not only a strict father but a strict coach.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by tradosaurus View Post
    In the end you will never know if you really would have won. The game we played before the championship game (that was called on forfeit in our favor) we were down 3-1 in the last inning against a very good pitcher. We ended up winning 4-3.

    Your coach learned a valuable less which is to understand each tournament specific rules. Do you think your son's coach wouldn't have made an issue if the opposing team's pitcher would have pitches over the maximum innings allowed? I had know problem with our team winning the championship by forfeit because there are rules in place for a reason and knowing those rules is just as important as playing the game.

    Oh you must have misunderstood what I meant when I say we won. I was not talking about the game. I'm talking about how our boys responded to what happened. Our kids, coaches, and parents hold themselves to a higher standard. It is not about a 3 dollar peice of plastic. I just don't like the fact that everyone assumes that it is cheating instead of a mistake.

    I do agree with you about anything can happen. We were down 3-0 in the game before the championship and we came back in the last inning to score 4. It is baseball and anything can happen.

    Here is another scenario for you. I am the coach of my younger son's 8u machine pitch team. This past weekend we lost our first game to a team that was 0-4. They had a kid come home for a bang bang play at home. The kid slid head first into home. Blue called him safe, my coach went ballistic saying the kid went out of the baseline. He really did not, but a head first slide is an automatic out in our league.

    Both of the opposing coaches rush homeplate and they are sceaming at these 13-14 yr old umpires, I just keep quiet and I know the oppsosing coaches pretty good. I tell them blue made his call and not to worry about it he is safe. Then after the inning I let the other coaches know about the headfirst slide being an automatic out. Then I let Blue know in a calm manner the rule also, so they can learn. After the game I let my coach know. I told him that we need to be above screaming at the umps and the other team. We need to set an example for these kids that we are trying to teach. It is not about the win and 1 run isnt going to matter. Oh we got dusted and run ruled that game.

    The reason I tell you this is because I learn this from my 13U son's coaches, Our actions define who we are. I promise you that my son's coaches would not have made an issue of a kid going over 1 out.

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