2012 Red Sox Season Thread

[Blackout]

Congratulation to David Ortiz on his 400th home run.

yeah

i doubt he makes 500 but there's a small chance

[Zoltan]

Boy, Mr. Ortiz sure knows when to strike while the iron is hot. Taking it to the media, like only Ortiz can do, and complaining about the one year deal he agreed to. I get the point he is making when he says the Sox just throw money at unproven players while he does it year in/year out. However, he should have not signed the one year deal if he was that embarassed by it. I hate this ugly business side of Ortiz.

I thought it was a pretty good contract for David, i mean he is 36. He was a free agent, he didnt have to take the contract.

[Therwil Flyer]

How is it that Chris Sale can slide right into the White Sox rotation and be fantastic, and Daniel Bard try the same thing and end up like this. I dont get it.

Because Chris Sale can throw more than two pitches for strikes and maintain velocity and control for more than two innings?

[Therwil Flyer]

Boy, Mr. Ortiz sure knows when to strike while the iron is hot. Taking it to the media, like only Ortiz can do, and complaining about the one year deal he agreed to. I get the point he is making when he says the Sox just throw money at unproven players while he does it year in/year out. However, he should have not signed the one year deal if he was that embarassed by it. I hate this ugly business side of Ortiz.

OK, so I know Ortiz does this once in a while trying to create some public outrage to put pressure on the club because this is in fact the only leverage he has in contract negotiations. But - and I love David Ortiz- shut the **** up already. It's embarrassing!

He is 36 yo and can't play a defensive position over a full season! He's unhappy that other FA's got those big deals, just look at what other DH's got in the last two years! Nobody forced him to accept arbitration, right? And who are these big contract FA's that were signed this offseason (when he signed the 1 year contract) anyways?

He's been as consistent as they come offensively, and consistently good. For sure. But he's making something more than $14.5m a year. He was humiliated that he had to sign a one year rather than a two year deal. Well, how did that work out for you? Assuming he signs another one year deal north of $14m, he's made roughly $4m more than he would have under a two year $12.5 per year deal!

Oh, and let's not forget, the Sox actually did offer him a two year deal. It just wasn't enough money for him.

Despite being 36 and playing no defensive position, he makes $14.575m this year, earned a combined $84.9125m plus bonuses from the Boston Red Sox Baseball Club, is currently the 5th highest paid player on the Red Sox. But he is ***ing unhappy about it. SHUT THE **** UP, DAVID!

[Mike D.]

I thought it was a pretty good contract for David, i mean he is 36. He was a free agent, he didnt have to take the contract.

Right, no other team offered more, and he accepted arbitration to ensure he got a raise. If the team hadn't offered arbitration, he would surely be signed for less. It was a bit of a gift to him.

That being said, the fact that he and the team haven't gotten together on a 2-year deal is based purely on stubbornness. I'm not sure if it's on Oritz side, the Sox side, or both.

Ortiz wants 2 years. The Sox want protection in case he falls off a cliff, production-wise.

Sign a 2-year incentive-laden deal. Start with a reasonable base...say $8-10 million a year. Tack on incentives that if he hits certain markers, he can make a lot more...heck, $18 million for a monster season, why not?

If he sucks, the Sox are out only slightly more than they're paying him this year. If he does really well, he gets paid a ton of money.

If this kind of deal hasn't been proposed, shame on the front office for not being creative. If it's been offered and Ortiz's camp rejected it, shame on them for not being willing to see past it being "a pay cut" and not being willing to bet on himself.

[Therwil Flyer]

Ortiz wants 2 years. The Sox want protection in case he falls off a cliff, production-wise.

Sign a 2-year incentive-laden deal. Start with a reasonable base...say $8-10 million a year. Tack on incentives that if he hits certain markers, he can make a lot more...heck, $18 million for a monster season, why not?

If he sucks, the Sox are out only slightly more than they're paying him this year. If he does really well, he gets paid a ton of money.

If this kind of deal hasn't been proposed, shame on the front office for not being creative. If it's been offered and Ortiz's camp rejected it, shame on them for not being willing to see past it being "a pay cut" and not being willing to bet on himself.

But that's exactly the deal the Sox offered him, isn't it. I mean I have no way of knowing exactly what the incentives would have been in the contract, but the Sox did offer him a two year contract with a base slightly below $10m (if I remember correctly) with significant incentives.

The Ortiz camp rejected the offer (and wisely so, given that he will make $14.575m this year and something like that next year).

Shame on nobody, except really on Ortiz for bitching about it.

[Therwil Flyer]

The real question of course is, what will they do next offseason? And what will they do with Ryan Lavarnway?

[Dude Paskert]

flipped on the Paw Sox tonight and just when i did, enter Bard. He absolutely self destructed. You will not see him with the big club this season and he could very well be done. Way to go front office/manager...you just killed his career when you agreed to make him a starter. Un@#$%beleiveable

I think a big part of trying to make Bard a starter was the fact that he would foul the sheets so much in close and late situations as a reliever. His stuff would make you think he would be a great closer, but he didn't seem to have the right makeup for that role. It stinks because Aceves is terrible as a closer, 0-6 now and he really deserves that record the way he's pitched. I have no problem with the Paps decision (he lost again last night, too), but they picked up an injury prone guy to "replace" him and have been scrambling since, guess what, he got hurt. Damn, is Foulke still out there and does his arm feel a little better yet???

[Mike D.]

Shame on nobody, except really on Ortiz for bitching about it.

I don't know if they offered this kind of deal or not last year. If they did, and Ortiz didn't take it...then he needs to stop complaining.

He keeps talking about "respect" and "security"...but if you want security, you need to give up a little money.

He seems to want it all...top dollar AND security.

[Therwil Flyer]

I think a big part of trying to make Bard a starter was the fact that he would foul the sheets so much in close and late situations as a reliever. His stuff would make you think he would be a great closer, but he didn't seem to have the right makeup for that role. It stinks because Aceves is terrible as a closer, 0-6 now and he really deserves that record the way he's pitched. I have no problem with the Paps decision (he lost again last night, too), but they picked up an injury prone guy to "replace" him and have been scrambling since, guess what, he got hurt. Damn, is Foulke still out there and does his arm feel a little better yet???

As much as I hated Aceves more than once over the last couple of days, he isn't terrible. He just isn't all that good. Besides trading for Bailey, they also traded for another setup man with closer experience. As terrible as that trade has been value wise, Melancon after his initial meltdown has actually been quite good since his return form Pawtucket.

I think the rationale for making Bard a starter is that as a decent no 4 starter he still would be more valuable than as a very good closer. Also, why do you think he wasn't any good in high leverage situations? A cursory look at his stats from 2009 to 2011 tells me he has been slightly better overall than in high leverage situations and with the exception of 2011 quite comparable (or even better) than Papelbon (Papelbon had a career year in 2011). AM I missing something here? I always thought of Bard as the bullpen ace, so maybe perception is skewed a little bit by my preconceived notion of him as a stud reliever?

[Therwil Flyer]

I don't know if they offered this kind of deal or not last year. If they did, and Ortiz didn't take it...then he needs to stop complaining.

He keeps talking about "respect" and "security"...but if you want security, you need to give up a little money.

He seems to want it all...top dollar AND security.

According to an industry source, the Red Sox have offered designated hitter David Ortiz a two-year deal worth $18 million.

http://www.weei.com/sports/boston/th...rtiz-two-years
Doesn't say anything about incentives though.

So, the Sox did offer him a two year deal at $9m per. He was looking for a two year deal at $12.5m per. That much we know. He then decided to accept arbitration and ended up with a one year deal worth $14.575m.

In all likelihood this will turn out to be a very good deal for him. Unless his next deal is worse than 1 year at roughly $9.5m (ignoring inflation, risk aversion etc), he will be better off than what he wanted in the first place. But yet he has to bitch about it.

This leaves only one conclusion: He is bitching to create pressure on the club so as to gain leverage in the negotiations for his next deal (or he isn't, in which case he's the best paid crybaby on this planet). But be this as it may, the likelihood of him getting a two year offer from any other team out there is very low. Given the readiness (offensively) of Ryan Lavarnway, it will be another one year deal from the Sox. Papi will earn more than $10m for another year and most likely he will be bitching about it for one more year.

[Dude Paskert]

As much as I hated Aceves more than once over the last couple of days, he isn't terrible. He just isn't all that good. Besides trading for Bailey, they also traded for another setup man with closer experience. As terrible as that trade has been value wise, Melancon after his initial meltdown has actually been quite good since his return form Pawtucket.

I think the rationale for making Bard a starter is that as a decent no 4 starter he still would be more valuable than as a very good closer. Also, why do you think he wasn't any good in high leverage situations? A cursory look at his stats from 2009 to 2011 tells me he has been slightly better overall than in high leverage situations and with the exception of 2011 quite comparable (or even better) than Papelbon (Papelbon had a career year in 2011). AM I missing something here? I always thought of Bard as the bullpen ace, so maybe perception is skewed a little bit by my preconceived notion of him as a stud reliever?

Aceves' ERA is 4.32 right now as a closer...similar to a starter having an ERA in the mid 5's. That's pretty awful.

Bard lost 4 games from Sept. 7th on last season...he was a big part of the huge collapse, although there is plenty of blame to go around. His ERA was 2.10 going into the game on the 7th and ended up at 3.33, a big jump over a small stretch of games.
I guess I don't have any hard data to back this up, but my friends and I commented several times during his fine 2010 season that Bard seemed to be good if he came in early in a game or if the score wasn't close, but seemed to struggle uncharacteristically in tight games and late innings. Maybe we were being unfair or operating on a small sample size, but we all felt that way. The big thing that stuck in my mind was how he threw gas on the raging wildfire that was the end to the Bosox 2011 season.

[Dude Paskert]

A friend of mine has family members who rent a luxury box at Fenway, and he was lucky enough to be able to take the free trip the team offered to spring training one year when all the rich folks were too busy to attend. He witnessed Papi ordering a $400,000 car (Bentley?) on a total whim (I think Lucchino was having one delivered and Ortiz had to have one, too), so the guy probably needs to rake in as much money as possible with those spending habits.

But that's exactly the deal the Sox offered him, isn't it. I mean I have no way of knowing exactly what the incentives would have been in the contract, but the Sox did offer him a two year contract with a base slightly below $10m (if I remember correctly) with significant incentives.

The Ortiz camp rejected the offer (and wisely so, given that he will make $14.575m this year and something like that next year).

Shame on nobody, except really on Ortiz for bitching about it.

[Mike D.]

Again, I'd be REALLY interested to see if the Sox offered 2/$18 flat out or with the incentives I'd suggesting. The difference between the two is huge. If they offered that, and Ortiz rejected it, he really has zero right to bitch.

Even if they didn't...he has next to zero reason to bitch.

[Therwil Flyer]

A friend of mine has family members who rent a luxury box at Fenway, and he was lucky enough to be able to take the free trip the team offered to spring training one year when all the rich folks were too busy to attend. He witnessed Papi ordering a $400,000 car (Bentley?) on a total whim (I think Lucchino was having one delivered and Ortiz had to have one, too), so the guy probably needs to rake in as much money as possible with those spending habits.

Not too long ago, he was involved in a minor car accident on his way to Fenway Park. The car he was driving then was a white Audi R8. He also has or used to have a red Mercedes SL (Don't know what model) and a couple of years ago, I remember a pic of him arriving in spring training with a Ferrari...

[Therwil Flyer]

Aceves' ERA is 4.32 right now as a closer...similar to a starter having an ERA in the mid 5's. That's pretty awful.

Bard lost 4 games from Sept. 7th on last season...he was a big part of the huge collapse, although there is plenty of blame to go around. His ERA was 2.10 going into the game on the 7th and ended up at 3.33, a big jump over a small stretch of games.
I guess I don't have any hard data to back this up, but my friends and I commented several times during his fine 2010 season that Bard seemed to be good if he came in early in a game or if the score wasn't close, but seemed to struggle uncharacteristically in tight games and late innings. Maybe we were being unfair or operating on a small sample size, but we all felt that way. The big thing that stuck in my mind was how he threw gas on the raging wildfire that was the end to the Bosox 2011 season.

Aceves's ERA is a bit inflated. His FIP sits around 2.3 or something. I'm on the run right now, but I'll post some numbers when I have a little more time. But, yeah, Bard was horrible at the end of last season. I don't know though if that has had any effect on the decision to make him a starter...

[Boston Boxer]

yeah

i doubt he makes 500 but there's a small chance

pointless comment...shut the hell up

[Mike D.]

pointless comment...shut the hell up

Hey, stop quoting the guy we all have blocked!

On Ortiz...what's really amazing about him reaching 400 HR is that he got such a late start. After his age 24 season, he had 20 career HR. After his age 28 season, he had 58.

In 9 1/2 (not full) seasons in Boston, he's hit 342 HR.

[Boston Boxer]

Hey, stop quoting the guy we all have blocked!

On Ortiz...what's really amazing about him reaching 400 HR is that he got such a late start. After his age 24 season, he had 20 career HR. After his age 28 season, he had 58.

In 9 1/2 (not full) seasons in Boston, he's hit 342 HR.

sorry.

good observation...he did get a late start and reached the 400 hr milestone. Pretty amazing indeed

[Boston Boxer]

Mauro Gomez is a real player. Would be nice to see him and Lavarnway get some extended time in the majors.

[Mike D.]

Mauro Gomez is a real player. Would be nice to see him and Lavarnway get some extended time in the majors.

Tough to find spots for them with Big Papi around and still the best hitter on the team.

I still imagine that Shoppach gets traded sometime after the AS break and Lavarnway is up. He could split catching duties with Salty and get a few at bats at DH and as a pinch hitter.

[Boston Boxer]

meanwhile, Crawford was pulled from the rehab game due to a groin strain. What the heck, this is becoming a joke.

[Zoltan]

Of course that would happen. What else could go wrong this year? I just hope Ellsbury makes it back ok. Hes playing for Pawtucket today according to Don Orsillo.

What do you guys think Josh Beckett's trade value is at this point? What are the odds that he gets moved by the trade deadline?

[Boston Boxer]

Of course that would happen. What else could go wrong this year? I just hope Ellsbury makes it back ok. Hes playing for Pawtucket today according to Don Orsillo.

What do you guys think Josh Beckett's trade value is at this point? What are the odds that he gets moved by the trade deadline?

I think Ellbury is due back after the all star break. The hang nail problem seems to be getting better. We are stuck with the likes of Beckett, Lackey, Dice K, and Crawford. They make too much money and are not producing. If we got rid of them we would have to eat most of the money and get single A players in return. We are screwed.

[9&10]

No sense in trading Beckett IMO. No frickin way we get anything of value. Besides, I still think he can turn things around.

Still, it's pretty sad that the bulk of my rooting has turned toward rooting against the Yankee$. Yes, I already do it 24/7, but it becomes more of a focus when the Red Sox suck.