Sons and Daughters, Baseball and Ballet

[tg643]

Private message from Trade to me: You've been brainwashed by the feminist movement. How many boys can get pregnant at 14?

My response: I am a man. I don't need to subjugate women to feel good about myself. I coexist quite well in partnership. We still manage to maintain our personal masculinity and femininity. My daughter did not get pregnant at fourteen or any other age up to twenty-three. Rather than think for her, I raised to to think for herself and be responsible and accountable for her decisions and actions. She is very capable of taking care of herself. She graduated from college PBK while playing a college sport. She now interns for one of the most prestigious law firms in the world before heading off to a prestigious law school. I trust her judgement in men. Her boyfriend, who I expect her to marry after law school is a great guy.

[clayadams]

Any post linked to Trade's offensive post that was deleted went down with it. I lost one too. It's the way links work. If the source is deleted everything connected goes too.

I beg to differ. His post is still there.

[Megunticook]

I find it personally offensive when girls are allowed to play in boy's league.

Wow. Aren't we in the 21st Century now?

Next thing I'm going to read on this board is that it's offensive that women are allowed to vote, or own property, or choose their husband. I guess they should stay barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen.

[BamaYankee]

I'd find it surprising that your daughter's commitment to dance allows for much time to take on baseball seriously enough to play on par with boys for very long. My daughter's 11. She's a beast, and I mean that affectionately. Very good softball and basketball and volleyball player. She got involved with competitive cheer about a year and a half ago. They take that stuff real serious. Right now is her official brief off season and she goes to conditioning classes 2 days a week that are for all intent and purpose mandatory. I've always been of the impression dance and gymnastics were similar in nature also.

Yeah, she's 8 turning 9, and not a member of the company yet. It is twice a week for her at 1.5 hrs at a time. At 11, she will be able to join the company, and then they start to really work. People would be surprised how many hours a day the jr high and high school practice their craft.

[Jake Patterson]

The problem with society is that girls grow up to think they can act and perform like men.

First. this "the" problem??? WTH? Second, Why not let them grow up thinking they should act like just.... people??
Why the distinction? Last, the divorce rate is going down - you should do your research.

They grow up confused and disoriented and the divorce rate keeps increasing because there is no defined gender roles in the marriage.

I had 4 sisters none grew up confused or disorientated... They played sports, got their MBA's and three of them own/ed their own businesses and make - well ... lots.

How many women play in the NFL, NBA, MLB? Oh that's right, none because they can't compete at that level!
So why set up a young girl for failure?

How many 5'4" men make it in the NFL? NBA? So once they are identified as being among the smallest we shouldn't let them play either??? Why set them up for failure??? And why is this falure - let them play until they run out of talent...

[CandlestickBum]

First. this "the" problem??? WTH?

It's a recently popular usage, and drives me crazy, everyone is running around saying variations of this. "The" issue/problem/topic dejure is..........

In that vein:

THE most apt quote for this thread is:
"Better to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt"

[Chris O'Leary]

I'm not sure about the cross-over between baseball/softball and ballet, other than strength and athleticism, but there is a huge cross-over between ballet and soccer. The year some of my girls went up on point, their leg strength went way up and suddenly they could kick the heck out of the ball.

[BamaYankee]

I'm not sure about the cross-over between baseball/softball and ballet, other than strength and athleticism, but there is a huge cross-over between ballet and soccer. The year some of my girls went up on point, their leg strength went way up and suddenly they could kick the heck out of the ball.

Well, my daughter can understand instruction in relation to movement, especially with the feet. I don't know for sure if it is the ballet training-- I think it is. Maybe she is just really damn smart instead. My example earlier was the crow hop. I told her once what I wanted to her to do, and she nailed it first time. Easy for her because it is pretty close to a ballet move she does in class. Later at the cages she showed off again with keeping her feet in line at the plate. I can't quite describe it but the boys I have coached haven't picked up on things quite as quickly.

[Chris O'Leary]

Well, my daughter can understand instruction in relation to movement, especially with the feet. I don't know for sure if it is the ballet training-- I think it is. Maybe she is just really damn smart instead. My example earlier was the crow hop. I told her once what I wanted to her to do, and she nailed it first time. Easy for her because it is pretty close to a ballet move she does in class. Later at the cages she showed off again with keeping her feet in line at the plate. I can't quite describe it but the boys I have coached haven't picked up on things quite as quickly.

This is the mark of a visual learner and a (really) good athlete; they have a direct connection between their eyes and their bodies.

People mock me for saying that I told Torres, "See this? Do this," but that's exactly how it worked.

I never really saw it with my older son, but I've seen it in my younger son; his baseball footwork is very advanced (and seemingly innate) and he can pick up a soccer moves very quickly just by watching clips of good players.

[OnTheBench]

As the dad of a girl who started playing in kindergarten and is still doing so in eighth grade (14s, tryouts are tomorrow), I would say to go for it if it looks like her skill level will put her in the middle of the pack or better on her team. We have not had to deal with any issues with her male teammates or their parents since she has always been a solid contributor on all the teams she has been on, but I could see it being a problem if her skills put her near the bottom. I will also say that it has probably helped that my daughter started playing in kindergarten so it has always been that she was just one of the kids. Your daughter's situation may be different since she will be starting at a later age. If fall ball in Alabama is like it is here (more developmental/recreational than summer ball) then that is definitely the time to try it to see how it goes. For us it has been a great experience.

[clayadams]

I love reading stories like this "OnTheBench" and the OP. I don't think guys like Trado realize just what kind of relationship having such a strong bond over something develops with your daughter. I always supported her dancing, always went to her competitions and recitals. However, I had nothing to teach her, all I could do was watch and be proud. With something like this, we can develop an unbreakable bond. Some of it would still be there with softball, but not to the extent it is with baseball. Thanks for posting OTB.

[Ursa Major]

Coupla thoughts here:

First, to Bama, I've helped coach my niece (who plays 10u softball), and agree that the footwork and hip movement of dance really shortcuts the teaching process.

Reminds of a story of a girl who was one of the few playing in our 9-10 league a few years back; she was very graceful but hadn't played at all before and it took awhile to raise her game, but she was clearly by the middle of her second year one of the better infielders. In the playoffs, the team ran out of pitchers and brought her in to close a tight game. She pitched from the stretch, starting with her hands at her sides and bringing them up with straight elbows until her hands met straight above her head, then she bent her elbows to bring her hands straight down and threw. I'm sure there's a technical ballet term for that movement. After a few pitches, I turned to a body and muttered, "I bet she's had some ballet training". Directly in front of me, a woman who bore a remarkable resemblance to the girl (i.e., obviously her mother) turned to me and in a voice dripping with icicles said, "Actually, she hasn't." Awwwwwkward! She got the first two hitters and finished off the game with a K, and her all-male group of comrades rushed the mound to crush her with congratulations. And I'm sure every one of them -- when faced with attitudes like Tradasaurus' in sports or school or business -- will think back to that moment, or another like it. If we believe - as I do and most folks do - that sports are important because the prepare us for a life where we have to learn teamwork skills for the second most important part of our life (behind family life), isn't it important that we learn how to deal with females as equals? After all, unless you're going to be a monk or a member of Augusta National, you're going to be working with women. And, by the way, she stayed in the league as an above-average player for two more years and, even if she didn't continue on, derived all the benefits of baseball that her male colleagues had and then some, because she'd done it in a milieu dominated by guys.

Three years ago, Ursa Minor played on a 15u summer team that played a couple of games against a largely inner-city, African-American squad that had a slightly chunky young woman on the team. I noticed in warm-ups that her teammates were civil to her but consciously were testing her by throwing the ball as hard as they could to her, and she got each heat-seeker without fuss or complaint. She was the starting catcher and did well, and then came in to close. She struck out two - including Ursa Minor - to end the game, and as we walked back to the car and talked about the game, I kept my ears open for any sign that he was embarassed to be whiffed "by a girl". When he talked about that at-bat, he lamented his failure to have a good approach to the AB but didn't mention a word about her gender, and it's pretty clear that it didn't factor into his feelings about his disappoingment. I was actually pretty proud of him.

As far as strong women leading to a higher divorce rate... well, that's the biggest load of crap I've heard in a long time. (And, if it did, I'm guessing it's attributable to women who finally had the courage to walk out on misogynistic and abusive jerks.) I'm sure it was an overbearing wife that caused Arkansas Coach Bobby Petrino to hire and bonk a 25-year old assistant behind his wife's back. And if you're going to pull this cause & effect down to the case of a girl deciding that she wants to play baseball with boys? Pleeeeze....

[tg643]

I love reading stories like this "OnTheBench" and the OP. I don't think guys like Trado realize just what kind of relationship having such a strong bond over something develops with your daughter. I always supported her dancing, always went to her competitions and recitals. However, I had nothing to teach her, all I could do was watch and be proud. With something like this, we can develop an unbreakable bond. Some of it would still be there with softball, but not to the extent it is with baseball. Thanks for posting OTB.

From all the time my daughter and I spent in the car on weekends traveling to and from travel softball tournaments I was far closer to my daughter than a typical dad. There was very little she wouldn't discuss with me. She called from the hotel Friday night of her first college softball roadtrip. She said when she got on the charter bus she thought of the years of getting in the car with me and all the talks.

I heavily recommend if a girl is still a good baseball player by 7th grade and wants to play through high school, she makes the switch to softball. Startng in 7th grade, for the next three years the boys shoot past the girls physically.

[tg643]

Ursa ... Trade is from East Santorum TX. You head east out of Dallas about one hundred years. You'll find it on the far right of the road.

[shake-n-bake]

I can easily see a girl coming from dance/ballet, or gymnastics, or skating, or cheer being a natural in most other youth sports. The athletic ability necessary is mind blowing. The willingness to make the personal commitment to working toward perfection is a norm. Girls seem to gravitate to what they are truly passionate about. It'd be very rare to hear a complaint from a coach that a girl involved in these sports wasn't all in. We see it all the time in the most traditional boys' sports.

The coaches are tough on the girls. Not mean, but really push in an encouraging way because they know the girls are so devoted. High expectations are common. A lot of us would cry foul about a youth baseball program that demanded so much from a boy. We're talking about taking on a lifestyle. Not to mention girls from these type of backgrounds are used to being center stage. Confidence runs really high here. I don't think it's an "I'm out to prove something" thing.

It's just a matter of physically staying on par with the boys which eventually will come to an end. That and the sports I mentioned require a tremendous amount of sacrifice. School, a little time with friends, and basically everything else devoted to perfection. Gets increasingly more difficult to squeeze in another interest requiring them to be present at specified times.

[JCincy]

Some dance styles and gymnastics heavily emphasize core strengthening and elasticity. This type of training would benefit the athletes of many types of sports: baseball/softball, football, volleyball, soccer, etc... regardless of gender.

[tradosaurus]

Wow. Aren't we in the 21st Century now?

Next thing I'm going to read on this board is that it's offensive that women are allowed to vote, or own property, or choose their husband. I guess they should stay barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen.

You said, I didn't.

[Roothog66]

I don't think you can overlook a very good point that Ursa was making. Let's admit it, to succeed in the workplace, most women have to deal with an environment that is male dominated. I think a girls deciding to stick with baseball and showing what it takes to succeed could be a strong indicator of someone who is going to go far in life. My own daughter played one year of baseball at the 8yo level where she dominated, but decided the next year that she "didn't want to play with boys." It was somewhat disappointing to me. I had started recruiting to put together an all-girl 9u team. A couple of years later, she really doesn't care much for sports, which kills Mom (a high school All-American softball and basketball player). Her passion is now Irish Dance. If you've ever been to one of those competitions, you'd understand how much I wish she'd stayed with baseball!

[tg643]

You said, I didn't.

Trade's posts should come with the same disclaimer as the backside of the point spread gambling cards ... For entertainment purposes only.

[The Glovedoctor]

My wife operates a very large dance studio with a ballet foundation (Royal Academy of Dance syllabus). I can tell you that the girls there don't practice, they train. The serious ones take probably 10 classes a week, and they are all exceptional athletes. Females are different, yes - but to say they are not at a males level are ridiculous. Females can do amazing things with their bodies (please, keep it clean). Playing baseball is not conventional for women, but I invite everyone to google LSU's Mo Isom - a fantastic womans soccer player who is very capable of being on the Tiger football team. It's not likely to happen, but she is capable and it is a possibility.

Anyway, my point is - respect the ladies.

[OnTheBench]

I heavily recommend if a girl is still a good baseball player by 7th grade and wants to play through high school, she makes the switch to softball. Startng in 7th grade, for the next three years the boys shoot past the girls physically.

I would agree that 7th grade is about right. My 8th grade daughter is starting that transition this spring. About 2 months ago she decided she wanted to try out for the high school softball team and made varsity so we are just beginning the process of juggling both sports this week. Fortunately the high school softball season ends about the same time that league play begins in baseball. I suspect that this may be her last year in baseball, which is kind of sad after all these years, but it is probably time. I do think she is capable of making our high school's freshman B team next year based on her size and skill level as well as the likely pool of boys trying out. In this regard, she's 5' 10" and doesn't swing or throw like the vast majority of the softball players I've seen. That came from a lot of hard work on her part to develop her skills using information taught to her from a variety of sources including what I have learned reading this forum. Nevertheless, she knows she doesn't have a chance of making the sophomore team after that so my feeling is that her transition to softball will be complete next year. Our community does have a high school in-house rec baseball league so maybe she will continue there but her competitive baseball days are probably coming to an end.

[Ursa Major]

I don't think you can overlook a very good point that Ursa was making. Let's admit it, to succeed in the workplace, most women have to deal with an environment that is male dominated. I think a girls deciding to stick with baseball and showing what it takes to succeed could be a strong indicator of someone who is going to go far in life. My own daughter played one year of baseball at the 8yo level where she dominated, but decided the next year that she "didn't want to play with boys." It was somewhat disappointing to me. I had started recruiting to put together an all-girl 9u team. A couple of years later, she really doesn't care much for sports, which kills Mom (a high school All-American softball and basketball player). Her passion is now Irish Dance. If you've ever been to one of those competitions, you'd understand how much I wish she'd stayed with baseball!

Yeah, there's a reason that there's a TV series called "Dance Moms" and NOT one called "Baseball Dads." Those Moms would make us look like Quakers by comparison when it comes to overzealousness and self-delusion.

But I appreciate your picking up on the learning lessons that come with co-education in sports. At some point, every kid will have to learn to deal with women in a competitive (i.e., workplace) environment. The sooner that the boys can fully adjust to treating women as equals and comrades (or superiors), the easier it will be to excel in that environment.

Yes, it would be nice if more girls could stay with baseball through high school, but their self-interest dictates that they move over to softball at some point. A cousin's daughter was an all-star catcher with the boys' teams through elementary and middle school, but ultimately realized that she'd topped out at 5'3" at age 12, and the boys were surpassing her. But the toughness developed in the boys game served her well in softball. And she did avoid one recurring problem - umpires insisting that she wear a protective cup when behind the plate.

[tradosaurus]

My wife operates a very large dance studio with a ballet foundation (Royal Academy of Dance syllabus). I can tell you that the girls there don't practice, they train. The serious ones take probably 10 classes a week, and they are all exceptional athletes. Females are different, yes - but to say they are not at a males level are ridiculous. Females can do amazing things with their bodies (please, keep it clean). Playing baseball is not conventional for women, but I invite everyone to google LSU's Mo Isom - a fantastic womans soccer player who is very capable of being on the Tiger football team. It's not likely to happen, but she is capable and it is a possibility.

Anyway, my point is - respect the ladies.

"We reviewed her skill, the things she can do and do well," Miles said at his post practice press briefing. "We kind of felt like there's four guys on the team right now that would be ahead of anybody that tried out the other day, including Mo. I told her that today.

She could never make a major Div 1A football powerhouse. Coach Miles let her try out, I would bet, only to minimize any criticism had he told her to pound salt.

I wonder if motherhood could be considered a career? Because that is what my four daughters are aspiring to acheive.

[Jake Patterson]

I wonder if motherhood could be considered a career?

I feel there is a bigger problem in this country with fatherhood than motherhood...

I would consider it one of the most noble jobs on earth, but it's only a part of what a person can become...

[BamaYankee]

I feel there is a bigger problem in this country with fatherhood than motherhood...

I would consider it one of the most noble jobs on earth, but it's only a part of what a person can become...

Yep. This is very true.