Justin Verlander 2012

[Edgartohof]

Just thought I should add some more early season speclation to the mix and pose a question.

Will Verlander be as effective in 2012 as he was in his MVP/Cy Young winning 2011 season? And if so, will he win the MVP again?


Obviously voters are willing to hand the MVP over to a pitcher, especially when there is no clear cut hitter who should win. But would they give it to a pitcher 2 years running? Especially the same pitcher?

Verlander was quite impressive last year with a league leading 24 wins, 2.40 ERA and 250+ IP with a sub-1.000 WHIP.

And he is off to a good start so far this season, though it is only 2 starts in for him. He as of this posting has yet to give up a run and is just being his usual dominant self.

[dominik]

no MVP again but he will be dominant again.

I wonder why he didn't have a monster season before? that guy clearly has the best stuff in all majors. can dial it up to 100 and has a wicked curve too.

[catbox_9]

MVP seems rather unlikely. He's pitching today and has 7 scoreless innings so far.

[m8644]

MVP seems rather unlikely. He's pitching today and has 7 scoreless innings so far.

not anymore. Rays scored 4 in the 9th, all charged to verlander.

[RaysFan_98]

Rays touched him for 4 today.

[dominik]

I don't really understand why managers still let pitchers pitch complete games if nothing is on the line.

yeah 9 out of 10 times verlander wins this but even if he does this takes a lot of gas out of him needed for the postseason. I hate this old school managers who let their ace throw 110 pitches (not in this game but often happens) in such games just because it is old school.

verlander had only throw 81 pitches after 8. considering that the tigers play in a really ppor division and are very likely to win by 10+ give verlander some short nights. nobody cares if they win 98 or 103. but what does matter is having a fresh pitcher in the postseason. same happens with halladay in philly. those guys are abused.

I have no problem with a manager having his ace throwing 150 pitches in game 7 of the world series. but I see no reason to not lift a starter after 7 when you are up with 4 runs. really no need to push them to the limit.

[RaysFan_98]

I don't really understand why managers still let pitchers pitch complete games if nothing is on the line.

yeah 9 out of 10 times verlander wins this but even if he does this takes a lot of gas out of him needed for the postseason. I hate this old school managers who let their ace throw 110 pitches (not in this game but often happens) in such games just because it is old school.

verlander had only throw 81 pitches after 8. considering that the tigers play in a really ppor division and are very likely to win by 10+ give verlander some short nights. nobody cares if they win 98 or 103. but what does matter is having a fresh pitcher in the postseason. same happens with halladay in philly. those guys are abused.

I have no problem with a manager having his ace throwing 150 pitches in game 7 of the world series. but I see no reason to not lift a starter after 7 when you are up with 4 runs. really no need to push them to the limit.

Did you watch the game? He was touching 97-100MPH on his FB in the 9th.

[dominik]

Did you watch the game? He was touching 97-100MPH on his FB in the 9th.

yeah. he did not lose this one because of fatique. but in the post season those extra innings can hurt you. no need to let a pitcher pitch 250 innings when you can win the division with 220 innings out of him.

[Rich the Giants fan]

Oh yeah, that one extra inning is going to kill him, just like it used to do with all those pitchers who used to throw 300+ innings a year.

(sarcasm)

[dominik]

Oh yeah, that one extra inning is going to kill him, just like it used to do with all those pitchers who used to throw 300+ innings a year.

(sarcasm)

don't you think that 250 innings in one year is too much in these days? that might have worked in the 60s but let's not forget this is a much higher scoring era= more batters faced per inning and probably also more pitches per batter (because of the smaller strikezone and thus more patient hitters). also the postseason is longer today so you need too save more bullets for that too.

I think 220 innings is plenty enough in these days. I wouldn't let my ace throw much more if I didn't need to. Why should I? more innings don't make the arm any better.

[Rich the Giants fan]

don't you think that 250 innings in one year is too much in these days? that might have worked in the 60s but let's not forget this is a much higher scoring era= more batters faced per inning and probably also more pitches per batter (because of the smaller strikezone and thus more patient hitters). also the postseason is longer today so you need too save more bullets for that too.

I think 220 innings is plenty enough in these days. I wouldn't let my ace throw much more if I didn't need to. Why should I? more innings don't make the arm any better.

Only because they haven't been conditioned to throw that many innings. I personally think part of the reason pitchers get injured nowadays is because they don't throw enough, which is due to the over-reaction by owners who don't want to pay pitcher so many millions a year only to see them get hurt. Innings have gone down because pitchers are babied now. Pitchers could pitch as many innings as they used to if they were conditioned to but the combination of the owners fear of injuries and the increased useage and specialization of the bullpen over the past 3-4 decades means that we'll never see pitchers used that way again.

[GiambiJuice]

Verlander was excellent in 2011, but the season is already becoming one of the most overrated ever. Of course this has everything to do with him inexplicably winning the MVP award last season, but if put into perspective, it was not an 'all time great' season by any stretch of the imagination.

Just looking back a few years, I'm not convinced Verlander's 2011 was better than

Greinke's 2009
Halladay or Kershaw's 2011 plus some other Halladay seasons
Several Randy Johnson and Pedro Martinez seasons in the early part of the decade
A few Johan Santana seasons
Cliff Lee's 2008
etc....

And yet none of these seasons came particularly close to winning the MVP award.

[Captain Cold Nose]

Verlander was excellent in 2011, but the season is already becoming one of the most overrated ever. Of course this has everything to do with him inexplicably winning the MVP award last season, but if put into perspective, it was not an 'all time great' season by any stretch of the imagination.

Just looking back a few years, I'm not convinced Verlander's 2011 was better than

Greinke's 2009
Halladay or Kershaw's 2011 plus some other Halladay seasons
Several Randy Johnson and Pedro Martinez seasons in the early part of the decade
A few Johan Santana seasons
Cliff Lee's 2008
etc....

And yet none of these seasons came particularly close to winning the MVP award.

Stronger competition for the award those years?

[bluesky5]

Only because they haven't been conditioned to throw that many innings. I personally think part of the reason pitchers get injured nowadays is because they don't throw enough, which is due to the over-reaction by owners who don't want to pay pitcher so many millions a year only to see them get hurt. Innings have gone down because pitchers are babied now. Pitchers could pitch as many innings as they used to if they were conditioned to but the combination of the owners fear of injuries and the increased useage and specialization of the bullpen over the past 3-4 decades means that we'll never see pitchers used that way again.

Creating the closer. One of the most, if not the most overrated position in sports and overpaid.

[GiambiJuice]

Stronger competition for the award those years?

Exactly.

....

[BondsOverBabe]

Verlander was excellent in 2011, but the season is already becoming one of the most overrated ever. Of course this has everything to do with him inexplicably winning the MVP award last season, but if put into perspective, it was not an 'all time great' season by any stretch of the imagination.

Just looking back a few years, I'm not convinced Verlander's 2011 was better than

Greinke's 2009
Halladay or Kershaw's 2011 plus some other Halladay seasons
Several Randy Johnson and Pedro Martinez seasons in the early part of the decade
A few Johan Santana seasons
Cliff Lee's 2008
etc....

And yet none of these seasons came particularly close to winning the MVP award.

LOLOLOLOLOL

Verlander's season is easily better than any Grenkie Halladay Santana Lee or Kershaw season.

Verlander's season is better than any non Pedro/Maddux/Johnson/Clemens of the last 20 years

[dominik]

LOLOLOLOLOL

Verlander's season is easily better than any Grenkie Halladay Santana Lee or Kershaw season.

Verlander's season is better than any non Pedro/Maddux/Johnson/Clemens of the last 20 years

verlanders season is better than it looks because of the innings pitched. I would even say it is better than most of Pedro's seasons because Pedro usually threw only about 200 or less. But still Clemens had one season with more war (10.3 to 8.6), Pedro had one higher (10.1) and maddux had one higher 8.8). So they had better seasons but it's not like they had multiple better seasons. Verlanders season is not alone but it matches pretty well.

BTW another 130!! Pitch complete game. This time he wins despite bases loaded but still...
Might be good for his war but maybe not for his health.

[Captain Cold Nose]

verlanders season is better than it looks because of the innings pitched. I would even say it is better than most of Pedro's seasons because Pedro usually threw only about 200 or less. But still Clemens had one season with more war (10.3 to 8.6), Pedro had one higher (10.1) and maddux had one higher 8.8). So they had better seasons but it's not like they had multiple better seasons. Verlanders season is not alone but it matches pretty well.

BTW another 130!! Pitch complete game. This time he wins despite bases loaded but still...
Might be good for his war but maybe not for his health.

He's a highly successful major league pitcher. One jam is not going to do him in.

[GiambiJuice]

LOLOLOLOLOL

Verlander's season is easily better than any Grenkie Halladay Santana Lee or Kershaw season.

Verlander's season is better than any non Pedro/Maddux/Johnson/Clemens of the last 20 years

"LOLOLOLOLOL"

How about making a reasoned argument instead of laughing like a hyena and making blanket statements.

Greinke pitched 21 fewer innings but beat him in ERA plus 205 to 170. Yeah Greinke's season was definitely better.Greinke could have pitched like AJ Burnett for those 21 innings and he'd still have a better season.

[Imapotato]

I don't really understand why managers still let pitchers pitch complete games if nothing is on the line.

yeah 9 out of 10 times verlander wins this but even if he does this takes a lot of gas out of him needed for the postseason. I hate this old school managers who let their ace throw 110 pitches (not in this game but often happens) in such games just because it is old school.

There have been more injuries with pitch limits than before them, plus they pitch in between starts in bullpen sessions which is ludicrous to me. If a pitcher is on fire and your ace, you will win with him more often than relieving him with a subpar pitcher.

You gave me a good laugh on saying old school managers let them pitch 110 pitches though....150 pitch outings where more than norm back in the day

[BondsOverBabe]

"LOLOLOLOLOL"

How about making a reasoned argument instead of laughing like a hyena and making blanket statements.

Greinke pitched 21 fewer innings but beat him in ERA plus 205 to 170. Yeah Greinke's season was definitely better.Greinke could have pitched like AJ Burnett for those 21 innings and he'd still have a better season.

lol so ERA plus is the end all be all stat for Pitchers? Its not even close Verlander's 2011 season shyts all over Greinke's 2009 season

The only non Maddux/Pedro/Johnson/Clemens season of the last 20 years that might also be better was Kevin Brown's 96 season and maybe if we stretch Glavine's 98 season was comparable with Verlander last year

[GiambiJuice]

lol so ERA plus is the end all be all stat for Pitchers? Its not even close Verlander's 2011 season shyts all over Greinke's 2009 season.

The only non Maddux/Pedro/Johnson/Clemens season of the last 20 years that might also be better was Kevin Brown's 96 season and maybe if we stretch Glavine's 98 season was comparable with Verlander last year

Very mature. I hope you get banned.

If you value 21 extra innings over 35 points in ERA+, that's your prerogative. It's a defensible position, I guess. At least try to defend your position instead of making childish comments like "LOLOLOLOLOL" laced with profanity, and not a single statistic or anecdote to support your opinion. Why would you join a site like this, just to ridicule people with whom you disagree?

[dominik]

Very mature. I hope you get banned.

If you value 21 extra innings over 35 points in ERA+, that's your prerogative. It's a defensible position, I guess. At least try to defend your position instead of making childish comments like "LOLOLOLOLOL" laced with profanity, and not a single statistic or anecdote to support your opinion. Why would you join a site like this, just to ridicule people with whom you disagree?

actually it's closer than you think.

Using a raw ERA calculation greinke has a small edge.

let's asume a league average runs of 4.5 (which is reasonable because the reliever that replaces him is quite likely average).
that would mean 10.5 runs for the 21 IP. greinke allowed 55 ER in that season. add the 10.5 runs and you get to 65.5 runs for 250 innings.

65.5*9/250=2.36

verlanders ERA was 2.40 so it was worse but not much. the gap gets a little larger because of the park factor but it's not like it is a blowout.

WAR reflects that: verlander 8.6 and greinke 9.0

greinkes season was better but not extremely much.

[GiambiJuice]

actually it's closer than you think.

Using a raw ERA calculation greinke has a small edge.

let's asume a league average runs of 4.5 (which is reasonable because the reliever that replaces him is quite likely average).
that would mean 10.5 runs for the 21 IP. greinke allowed 55 ER in that season. add the 10.5 runs and you get to 65.5 runs for 250 innings.

65.5*9/250=2.36

verlanders ERA was 2.40 so it was worse but not much. the gap gets a little larger because of the park factor but it's not like it is a blowout.

WAR reflects that: verlander 8.6 and greinke 9.0

greinkes season was better but not extremely much.

Very solid research, Dom, but I never said it wasn't close. I agree that they are very close but that Greinke's season is slightly better. If Verlander's was better it certainly isn't laughably so, as BondsOverBabe indicates, and it certainly doesn't "shyt all over Greinke's 2009 season".

[dominik]

Very solid research, Dom, but I never said it wasn't close. I agree that they are very close but that Greinke's season is slightly better. If Verlander's was better it certainly isn't laughably so, as BondsOverBabe indicates, and it certainly doesn't "shyt all over Greinke's 2009 season".

yes that is correct. his statement was really overboard.