Yeah, I see Pauly's point, but even the Yankees don't have as many albatross contracts.
The Alderson Era
Yeah, I see Pauly's point, but even the Yankees don't have as many albatross contracts.
Registered User
D-Dubs, I agree with you on the Jets. Once they adopted this "Raiders wannabe" attitude, they lost me. I was starting to bail out on them over a decade ago, when I went to a game and could not believe how drunk and disorderly the crowd had become. My wife is a Giants fan, and when I stopped thinking that being a Jets fan meant I had to hate the Giants, I began to see how much better run the Giants are top to bottom. Even their fans behavior is much more family friendly.Originally Posted by D-Dubs
As a kid, I recall back around 1977-78 an article written by Dick Young where he listed all of the NY star players that had recently been dumped one way or another: Seaver, Namath, Walt Frazier, Eddie Giacomin, Dr J., Rod Gilbert, Bob Tucker , and some others and the theme was did a city ever lose so many stars in various sports in a relatively close span. (basically only the once moribund NYY thrived in NY in the late 1970's).I went through it telling myself that Stearns was better than Munson, and that Flynn was a better fielder than Randolph, etc...but I wasn't even fooling myself.
Right now, what does a young kid who likes baseball really have to root for with the Mets? David Wright?
When I watch the Mets, either on TV or in person, I see the Royals lineup. Or the Rockies. Or the Astros.
What I would like the NY Media to do is to ask the same thing as the much smaller St Louis media is now asking: how are we going to compete with the Los Angeles Dodgers going forward. We can have four aces in the minors, and with the current garbage in the line up, still not contend.
The Mets from 1970-1976 had some great proven HOF caliber pitching, and yet they only won more than 83 games one time (86 in '76). If the Mets think Harvey and Wheeler are the answer, the Dodgers just changed the question.
D-Die Hard
I hear you, but cobbling together free agents doesn't always work either (remember Robby Alomar & Mo Vaughn).
Bay and Santana roll off after next year. Matt Den Dekker hopefully will be ready for centerfield/leadoff in 2014. Sign or trade for another corner outfielder, then bide time (Duda?) waiting for Brandon Nimmo to fill the other in 2015-2016.
I don't think starting pitching is the issue. Harvey looks good, and reports on Wheeler seem like he's solid too. Pelfrey should come back. Niese is solid. Extend Dickey.
Infield is fine if they can keep Wright. Murphy or Valdespin at 2B (trade the other). Ike is showing us now what he is (probably .250/30/95), which is good enough. Tejada is fine.
The glaring weaknesses are a 4th/5th-place hitting corner outfielder and a solid major-league catcher. Need to figure those two out.
Some would say the bullpen, but bullpens are always crapshoots even when you throw money at them. Keep Parnell, Edgin, and Francisco. Include anyone else in a trade. Fill in from there... crapshoot.
For the corner outfielder and catcher, be willing to trade Murphy/Valdespin, Duda, Thole, and any of Gee, Hefner, McHugh, Familia, Mejia, etc. If a free-agent can be signed with the Bay/Santana money, that's fine too.
Doesn't seem that complicated to me -- but you do have to give up on 2013.
Extend Wright & Dickey. Of course I've completely contradicted my last post about hoping Wright goes elsewhere... I guess I mean that I hope he goes elsewhere if they're not going to do something like what I just outlined, which involves increasing payroll even beyond reinvesting Bay/Santana money into improving the team!
Paulypal
This right here is one of the best points made on this forum, and something that you dont hear too many "experts" say. All you hear experts talk about is pitching. How many times have you heard pitching is 90% of the game? A 100....a 1000....10,000?
The Mets have a horrible history.....HORRIBLE. 50 years two WS wins....horrible. I dont care how you slice it. Why? If you ask me - I have said this on the forum a bunch of times....its because the Mets do not come up with GREAT players. I mean great players. I am not talking about Reyes or Wright. I am talking about cream of the crop MVP caliber every year type players.
The Mets everyday player history is so poor its almost an anamoly. Great everyday players make the franchise. Fans can go to the park everyday and see the great player. You cant say that about Seaver, Gooden. You either time it right or get lucky one you have that franchise pitcher.
I understand you need good pitching to win and I am not discounting it but how many team have the WS on pitching alone. Ok so your going to say the 2010 Giants. 100 correct. The early 60's Dodgers when offense started to dive because they raised the mound to Mt Everest.
I love hitting...I love offense. Pitching ...eh. Necessary yes, but teams that can hit win. Great teams have always had a combo of both. The mid 90 Yanks -- great lineup --- excellent starting pitching. The Mets have always prided themselves as a pitching first franchise....hence the suck history. 2000 WS - Leiter, and Hampton. Very good. Lineup....One great hitter then you had Agbayani, Payton, Zeile, Timo Perez. That doesnt get it done.
Pitching is very important, but hitting and defense are equally as important. The Mets for their 50 year history did not get that memo.
D-Die Hard
Yes, the Mets record is horrible... But which franchises "develop" great position players? There are not many players that fit your criteria, and not many franchises develop more than one or two consistent MVP caliber players over the years...
Think about the names you would include over the last decade... Pujols (Cardinals), Braun (Brewers), Hamilton (Rays), A-Roid (Mariners), Bonds (Pirates), Votto (Reds), Griffey (Mariners)... Only one repeat, the Mariners, and they stink. That caliber of player is rare, and isn't usually "developed"... Did the Angels "develop" Mike Trout, or were they just lucky enough to draft him.
Wright and Reyes are perennial all-stars. Wright's a 6-time all-star and has finished in the top 10 in MVP voting 3 times (maybe a 4th this year). He'll earn his 3rd silver slugger this year.
I agree, though, the organizational empahsis on pitching has been over-done. I hope Ike, Matt Den Dekker and Brandon Nimmo will be very good (if not great) players.
Paulypal
Your 100% right I definately overstated the greatness of the players needed, but you get my point. Wright is a perennial all star? Except for 2009, 10, and 11. Reyes was gone for 2-3 season due to injury. Ike? Cmon.
I dont care if its development or luck the Mets dont emphasize the great everyday player. 50 years and not one player with 400 homers as a Met....hell there are only two with 300 I think. They never had an MVP. They never had "that" player.
By the way....on this is on another subject.... Calling ARod - Aroid with some of the other names on your list that you let slide in you steroid bashing makes you look like less than a real baseball fan. On another note...I am not sure ALL of the names on your list havent juiced. Another argument for another day.
Last edited by Paulypal; 08-28-2012 at 12:58 PM.
D-Die Hard
Maybe I'm not privy to the stats that you "real baseball fans" get, but I'm pretty sure Wright has made the NL All Star team six of the last seven years... That seems darn close to perennial.
And the fact I typed "A-Roid" without coming up with other steroid-related nicknames has absolutely nothing to do with whether I'm a real baseball fan.
Last edited by D-Dubs; 08-28-2012 at 03:24 PM.
D-Die Hard
Cubs lock up Starlin Castro for 8 years... Terms not disclosed yet.
Registered User
Very non-Mets like.
Cleon Jones catches a deep fly ball in F. Scott Fitzgerald's Valley of the Ashes, and a second-grader smiles in front of the black and white television.
Paulypal
True. I actually didnt remember him making the AS team.
Registered User
I remember that 1977 alone was really tough as Seaver,Namath,and Frazier were all gone that year as they were my
favorite Met,my favorite Jet,and my favorite Knicks player of all time respectively.Bob Tucker was gone that year as well.
As Chazz Palminteri in A Bronx Tale once said "Sometimes you get all the great ones all at once."
"You don't give up any runs,we'll guarantee you
at least a tie." ~ Grote to Koosman
Didn't the Mets lock up Reyes and Wright for what were then seen as long term deals when they were around Castro's age and experience level?
D-Die Hard
Yes, in late 2006 Wright got 6 years with a club option for a seventh, Reyes got 4 with an option. Both were 23, Castro is 22.
Registered User
Good point. Obviously, Mets goofed with the Reyes deal then (some said so at the time).
Cleon Jones catches a deep fly ball in F. Scott Fitzgerald's Valley of the Ashes, and a second-grader smiles in front of the black and white television.
D-Die Hard
...and I remember reading that Jose was a bit pissed that Wright got more years and more money per year.
Fact is though, Reyes missed an entire year's worth of games over the contract. He got paid significantly more per game played than Wright.
Registered User
Maybe - not sure how that works out. David's avg games per year is not all that much higher than Jose's.
I also think Wright is pissed at how the Mets dealt with Reyes - and how Mets fans did as well. He's a bright guy, and sees what happened there.
Cleon Jones catches a deep fly ball in F. Scott Fitzgerald's Valley of the Ashes, and a second-grader smiles in front of the black and white television.
D-Die Hard
Over the contract, Reyes missed 19% of the Mets' games. Over the same span, Wright missed less than half as much -- 9% of the games. Reyes got paid $54,967 per game played. Wright got paid $53,596 per game.
Damn these guys get paid a lot!
Registered User
Well good research! Yeah they do. It would have been nice to keep those two together for their careers - sad to say, looks like we'll lose both now.
Cleon Jones catches a deep fly ball in F. Scott Fitzgerald's Valley of the Ashes, and a second-grader smiles in front of the black and white television.
The Alderson Era
I don't know - maybe it's just me, but it sort of feels refreshing to completely restart - even if that means losing our two franchise players. The loss of Wright & Reyes, hopefully coincides with the emergence of Davis, Wheeler, Harvey, et al.
Registered User
Wright's 2nd half has me warming up to the idea of letting him go. Since 2008, he just hasn't been the same.
He's the only remnant of the past era, represented by those 2 September collapses. It's time to reboot this franchise, and that starts by getting a new franchise player.
Moderate Moderator
So transparent. Nearly a year after the fact and you're still in mourning.
Fascinating. What do you base that statement on?? That gleeming crystal ball?sad to say, looks like we'll lose both now.
Put it in the books.
Registered User
I'm with you. I think his head is fried and will never be a superstar here. Let him go. if he regains his form somewhere else so be it.
Registered User
Sorry Milla, but you can't separate the post from the poster here.
Straw loves to harp on his two favorite points, but will not ever say what he would do differently. I have point blank asked him what trades we would have made, and Straw answered he did not have to answer the question. Every day Pauly asks him where he is getting the money from to sign the free agents he complains aren't signed and guess what. No answer.
He's not a dumb guy, so I'm convinced it's just a game he plays to get his jollies.
Registered User
Some jollies. I've been a Mets fan since 1969 and the failure to keep Reyes and Wright together on the Mets infield for most of their careers ranks up there with the worst personnel decisions in a franchise known for them. The team is down and headed lower and yeah, I think Wright may be headed for the exit (and who'd blame the guy).
I guess that's pretty "transparent," but it's about the Wilpons and their mismanagement - which now includes the horrendous (and mostly missing) general manager they brought on. Will I ever "get over it?" Who cares. I'll always rank it among the worst things the Mets have ever done, and they'll be feeling this for years.
Cleon Jones catches a deep fly ball in F. Scott Fitzgerald's Valley of the Ashes, and a second-grader smiles in front of the black and white television.
D-Die Hard
Sure Wright "may" be headed for the exit, and I "may" win the lottery next week. Just about everything he and Dickey have said points to them wanting to stay. That one article/quote about Wright saying the will not be just about money is the only hint (if it was that) that he won't try to work it out with Sandy.
It's not definite that he signs and extension, but given the quotes I've seen, it is far from "likely" that he goes elsewhere.
I truly believe he'd have a better career elsewhere, but I also believe he wants to stay. Masochist.
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