View Poll Results: Gary Sheffield vs Manny Ramirez

Voters
11. You may not vote on this poll
  • Gary Sheffield

    2 18.18%
  • Manny Ramirez

    7 63.64%
  • Both are roughly equal

    2 18.18%
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 26 to 39 of 39

Thread: Gary Sheffield vs Manny Ramirez

  1. #26
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Staten Island, New York
    Posts
    5,645
    Manny easily. Besides Bonds, what hitter has been better in the last 25 years?
    Lou Gehrig is the Truest Yankee of them all!

  2. #27
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Braves Country
    Posts
    823
    Quote Originally Posted by White Knight View Post
    Manny easily. Besides Bonds, what hitter has been better in the last 25 years?
    Pujols of course.
    Chop! Chop! Chop!

  3. #28
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Staten Island, New York
    Posts
    5,645
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfoot 88 View Post
    Pujols of course.
    He's way better all around, but just with the bat alone?
    Lou Gehrig is the Truest Yankee of them all!

  4. #29
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Braves Country
    Posts
    823
    Quote Originally Posted by White Knight View Post
    He's way better all around, but just with the bat alone?
    Sure.

    His top OPS+ years are much better than Manny.
    Chop! Chop! Chop!

  5. #30
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Florissant, Mo.
    Posts
    18,780
    Pujols: 190, 189, 187, 178, 173, 172, 168, 157, 157, 151
    Ramirez: 186, 184, 173, 165, 165, 161, 160, 153, 153, 152

    Not that OPS+ is the best way to measure offense, but Pujols has a pretty clear edge here, if you put stock into it.
    1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

    1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

    1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014


    The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
    The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

  6. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew C. View Post
    Pujols: 190, 189, 187, 178, 173, 172, 168, 157, 157, 151
    Ramirez: 186, 184, 173, 165, 165, 161, 160, 153, 153, 152

    Not that OPS+ is the best way to measure offense, but Pujols has a pretty clear edge here, if you put stock into it.
    Peak, it's Pujols, but he's just going into the decline phase, throughout which Manny was extremely productive. At the end of Pujol's career, it might not look so clear cut and might even favor Manny. Take a look at the comparison graphs on Fangraphs and see what you think.

  7. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackaroo Dave View Post
    Peak, it's Pujols, but he's just going into the decline phase, throughout which Manny was extremely productive. At the end of Pujol's career, it might not look so clear cut and might even favor Manny. Take a look at the comparison graphs on Fangraphs and see what you think.
    Right, but Manny undoubtedly had help throughout his excellent decline phase (he tested postive three times ), so I don't think it's fair to knock Pujols if he ends up not declining "as well" as Manny did. Even if Pujols did end up having a Frank Thomas like decline phase, I would still say he's a better hitter than Manny.
    Last edited by fenrir; 04-18-2012 at 05:27 AM.

  8. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by fenrir View Post
    Right, but Manny undoubtedly had help throughout his excellent decline phase (he tested postive three times ), so I don't think it's fair to knock Pujols if he ends up not declining "as well" as Manny did. Even if Pujols did end up having a Frank Thomas like decline phase, I would still say he's a better hitter than Manny.
    Yeah, I was responding to the numbers vs numbers comparisons, that's all. And speculating that someone might not decline as well as Manny is hardly a knock.
    Last edited by Jackaroo Dave; 04-18-2012 at 05:53 AM.

  9. #34
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Florissant, Mo.
    Posts
    18,780
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackaroo Dave View Post
    Peak, it's Pujols, but he's just going into the decline phase, throughout which Manny was extremely productive. At the end of Pujol's career, it might not look so clear cut and might even favor Manny. Take a look at the comparison graphs on Fangraphs and see what you think.
    11 years is quite a long peak for Manny to overcome unless Pujols has a huge decline. And considering that Pujols's OPS+ from June through October last year was over 180, I don't see a major decline starting anytime soon.
    1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

    1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

    1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014


    The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
    The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

  10. #35
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Home of the Twins
    Posts
    1,911
    How did Pujols, one of the top 10 hitters and players ever, get brought into this comparison? How many players have a better 10 year span than Pujols? Maybe 5 ever?

    All right, I'll play along. Maybe I'm missing something here. Since Pujols was hurt last year, I'll use the best 10 year peak for each player.

    Albe Pujols, 2001-10, 172 OPS+, 75 SB,14 CS,83.3 WAR
    M. Ramirez, 1997-06, 161 OPS+, 16 SB,18 CS,48.1 WAR
    G Sheffield, 1994-03, 158 OPS+, 135 SB, 54 CS,43.0 WAR

    Sheffield's career offensive WAR is actually higher than Ramirez's career WAR(81.7 vs 78.4). However, Ramirez's defense was less of a liability, so Ramirez holds an edge in career WAR(66.6 to 63.3). Granted, Ramirez was a slightly better hitter, although I believe a lot of that has to do with the much better lineups that he was in. However, I will finally vote Ramirez as the better overall player between these two, although it's very close.

    I cannot see placing Ramirez in Pujols' league, even with the steroid use. That to me is an insult to Pujols. Pujols to me has a chance at being the best ever. But he has his work cut out for him. My guess is that he'll end up about 5th all-time.

  11. #36
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Staten Island, New York
    Posts
    5,645
    Quote Originally Posted by pheasant View Post
    How did Pujols, one of the top 10 hitters and players ever, get brought into this comparison? How many players have a better 10 year span than Pujols? Maybe 5 ever?
    I agree it's off-topic, but I have to add that Pujols is so massively over-rated here at BF it's sickening. He's never even had a top 25 season. He's lucky if he makes the top 20 hitters of all-time.
    Lou Gehrig is the Truest Yankee of them all!

  12. #37
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Florissant, Mo.
    Posts
    18,780
    Quote Originally Posted by White Knight View Post
    I agree it's off-topic, but I have to add that Pujols is so massively over-rated here at BF it's sickening. He's never even had a top 25 season. He's lucky if he makes the top 20 hitters of all-time.
    Pujols finished in the top 3 in OPS+ for 8 seasons in a row, with 5 #1 finishes.

    I don't know how this compares to older players. I guess the "issue" has always been for you the lack of 200 OPS+ seasons. If 170 nets you #1 today, but it took 190's to do so in the past, we have to ask ourselves: is the level of competition so high today that is is much harder for clean players to get 200, or were the players of yesteryear so much better than today that 200's were possible for them but not for today's best.

    How you answer this question will determine if you think Pujols is overrated or not.
    1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

    1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

    1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014


    The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
    The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

  13. #38
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Florissant, Mo.
    Posts
    18,780
    Of all players who started their careers post-1993 expansion (say the start of the steroid Era), Pujols has by far and away the best OPS+. Even after a decline phase, he should be leading by a good amount when his career is over.

    So did Pujols just dominate a very weak era with a 170 OPS+, and the old guys were just that much better than today's players? Or is it much harder to post 190-200 OPS+ seasons with today's stronger competition?
    1885 1886 1926 1931 1934 1942 1944 1946 1964 1967 1982 2006 2011

    1887 1888 1928 1930 1943 1968 1985 1987 2004 2013

    1996 2000 2001 2002 2005 2009 2012 2014


    The Top 100 Pitchers In MLB History
    The Top 100 Position Players In MLB History

  14. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by White Knight View Post
    I agree it's off-topic, but I have to add that Pujols is so massively over-rated here at BF it's sickening. He's never even had a top 25 season. He's lucky if he makes the top 20 hitters of all-time.
    pujols is currently a tied 7th in OPS+. of the players that played in the last 40 years only bonds has a better career OPS+. just because a player had one or two 200 OPS+ season on steroids that doesn't make him a better hitter than albert.

    albert might drop if his decline starts but if he can finish around 160-165 you can rightfully say that albert was the best clean hitter of the last 40 years.
    I think walks are overrated unless you can run. If you get a walk and put the pitcher in a stretch, that helps, but the guy who walks and cant run, most of the time hes clogging up the bases for somebody who can run. Dusty Baker.

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •