Gary Sheffield vs Manny Ramirez

[White Knight]

Manny easily. Besides Bonds, what hitter has been better in the last 25 years?

[Bigfoot 88]

Manny easily. Besides Bonds, what hitter has been better in the last 25 years?

Pujols of course.

[White Knight]

Pujols of course.

He's way better all around, but just with the bat alone?

[Bigfoot 88]

He's way better all around, but just with the bat alone?

Sure.

His top OPS+ years are much better than Manny.

[Matthew C.]

Pujols: 190, 189, 187, 178, 173, 172, 168, 157, 157, 151
Ramirez: 186, 184, 173, 165, 165, 161, 160, 153, 153, 152

Not that OPS+ is the best way to measure offense, but Pujols has a pretty clear edge here, if you put stock into it.

[Jackaroo Dave]

Pujols: 190, 189, 187, 178, 173, 172, 168, 157, 157, 151
Ramirez: 186, 184, 173, 165, 165, 161, 160, 153, 153, 152

Not that OPS+ is the best way to measure offense, but Pujols has a pretty clear edge here, if you put stock into it.

Peak, it's Pujols, but he's just going into the decline phase, throughout which Manny was extremely productive. At the end of Pujol's career, it might not look so clear cut and might even favor Manny. Take a look at the comparison graphs on Fangraphs and see what you think.

[fenrir]

Peak, it's Pujols, but he's just going into the decline phase, throughout which Manny was extremely productive. At the end of Pujol's career, it might not look so clear cut and might even favor Manny. Take a look at the comparison graphs on Fangraphs and see what you think.

Right, but Manny undoubtedly had help throughout his excellent decline phase (he tested postive three times ), so I don't think it's fair to knock Pujols if he ends up not declining "as well" as Manny did. Even if Pujols did end up having a Frank Thomas like decline phase, I would still say he's a better hitter than Manny.

[Jackaroo Dave]

Right, but Manny undoubtedly had help throughout his excellent decline phase (he tested postive three times ), so I don't think it's fair to knock Pujols if he ends up not declining "as well" as Manny did. Even if Pujols did end up having a Frank Thomas like decline phase, I would still say he's a better hitter than Manny.

Yeah, I was responding to the numbers vs numbers comparisons, that's all. And speculating that someone might not decline as well as Manny is hardly a knock.

[Matthew C.]

Peak, it's Pujols, but he's just going into the decline phase, throughout which Manny was extremely productive. At the end of Pujol's career, it might not look so clear cut and might even favor Manny. Take a look at the comparison graphs on Fangraphs and see what you think.

11 years is quite a long peak for Manny to overcome unless Pujols has a huge decline. And considering that Pujols's OPS+ from June through October last year was over 180, I don't see a major decline starting anytime soon.

[pheasant]

How did Pujols, one of the top 10 hitters and players ever, get brought into this comparison? How many players have a better 10 year span than Pujols? Maybe 5 ever?

All right, I'll play along. Maybe I'm missing something here. Since Pujols was hurt last year, I'll use the best 10 year peak for each player.

Albe Pujols, 2001-10, 172 OPS+, 75 SB,14 CS,83.3 WAR
M. Ramirez, 1997-06, 161 OPS+, 16 SB,18 CS,48.1 WAR
G Sheffield, 1994-03, 158 OPS+, 135 SB, 54 CS,43.0 WAR

Sheffield's career offensive WAR is actually higher than Ramirez's career WAR(81.7 vs 78.4). However, Ramirez's defense was less of a liability, so Ramirez holds an edge in career WAR(66.6 to 63.3). Granted, Ramirez was a slightly better hitter, although I believe a lot of that has to do with the much better lineups that he was in. However, I will finally vote Ramirez as the better overall player between these two, although it's very close.

I cannot see placing Ramirez in Pujols' league, even with the steroid use. That to me is an insult to Pujols. Pujols to me has a chance at being the best ever. But he has his work cut out for him. My guess is that he'll end up about 5th all-time.

[White Knight]

How did Pujols, one of the top 10 hitters and players ever, get brought into this comparison? How many players have a better 10 year span than Pujols? Maybe 5 ever?

I agree it's off-topic, but I have to add that Pujols is so massively over-rated here at BF it's sickening. He's never even had a top 25 season. He's lucky if he makes the top 20 hitters of all-time.

[Matthew C.]

I agree it's off-topic, but I have to add that Pujols is so massively over-rated here at BF it's sickening. He's never even had a top 25 season. He's lucky if he makes the top 20 hitters of all-time.

Pujols finished in the top 3 in OPS+ for 8 seasons in a row, with 5 #1 finishes.

I don't know how this compares to older players. I guess the "issue" has always been for you the lack of 200 OPS+ seasons. If 170 nets you #1 today, but it took 190's to do so in the past, we have to ask ourselves: is the level of competition so high today that is is much harder for clean players to get 200, or were the players of yesteryear so much better than today that 200's were possible for them but not for today's best.

How you answer this question will determine if you think Pujols is overrated or not.

[Matthew C.]

Of all players who started their careers post-1993 expansion (say the start of the steroid Era), Pujols has by far and away the best OPS+. Even after a decline phase, he should be leading by a good amount when his career is over.

So did Pujols just dominate a very weak era with a 170 OPS+, and the old guys were just that much better than today's players? Or is it much harder to post 190-200 OPS+ seasons with today's stronger competition?

[dominik]

I agree it's off-topic, but I have to add that Pujols is so massively over-rated here at BF it's sickening. He's never even had a top 25 season. He's lucky if he makes the top 20 hitters of all-time.

pujols is currently a tied 7th in OPS+. of the players that played in the last 40 years only bonds has a better career OPS+. just because a player had one or two 200 OPS+ season on steroids that doesn't make him a better hitter than albert.

albert might drop if his decline starts but if he can finish around 160-165 you can rightfully say that albert was the best clean hitter of the last 40 years.