Mike Piazza - Can an argument be made that he's the best catcher ever?

[fenrir]

I think most people can agree that he's the best hitting catcher ever for both peak and career. Is that enough to make him the best catcher ever? How much does his below average defense hurt his case?

For what it's worth, I think his 9.3 WAR in 1997 may be the highest by a catcher ever.

[willshad]

I believe that Piazza is the number one catcher, and the people who list anyone else 1) overrate catcher defense 2) overrate how bad Piazza was on defense, concentrating only on his poor arm, and 3) compare him to how other catchers were at their BEST, and forget the fact that they were all inconsistent from season to season.

Piazza had pretty much everything working against him:

-He was in poor to mediocre lineups his entire career. Contrast this to ALL the other all time catchers, who were in incredible lineups. This undoubtedly helped them offensively. Put Piazza on the Big Red Machine or some of those Yankees and As teams, and he has Dimaggio type numbers. Maybe several 150 RBI seasons.

-He was killed by his home stadiums. Taking just his road stats, Piazza is probably a top 20 all time hitter, at ANY position. Put him in even an average hitting stadium, and his numbers would be much better.

-May be a minor thing, but he lost time due to the strike. Without it, he goes 30 100 .300 his first 9 seasons.

Even with all this working against him he still did not have an 'off' year until he was in his mid 30s. Other catchers alternated MVP type seasons with less than stellar ones, while Piazza had an MVP type season every year.

I think all of this is just too much for other catchers to overcome.

[fenrir]

I believe that Piazza is the number one catcher, and the people who list anyone else 1) overrate catcher defense 2) overrate how bad Piazza was on defense, concentrating only on his poor arm, and 3) compare him to how other catchers were at their BEST, and forget the fact that they were all inconsistent from season to season.

Piazza had pretty much everything working against him:

-He was in poor to mediocre lineups his entire career. Contrast this to ALL the other all time catchers, who were in incredible lineups. This undoubtedly helped them offensively. Put Piazza on the Big Red Machine or some of those Yankees and As teams, and he has Dimaggio type numbers.

-He was killed by his home stadiums. Taking just his road stats, Piazza is probably a top 20 all time hitter, at ANY position. Put him in even an average hitting stadium, and his numbers would be much better.

-May be a minor thing, but he lost time due to the strike. Without it, he goes 30 100 .300 his first 9 seasons.

Even with all this working against him he still did not have an 'off' year until he was in his mid 30s. Other catchers alternated MVP type seasons with less than stellar ones, while Piazza had an MVP type season every year.

I think all of this is just too much for other catchers to overcome.

Looks like we finally agree on something.

I think Piazza had one of the greatest starts to a career ever, probably just as impressive as Pujols or Frank Thomas if you consider the position he played. Maybe even more impressive.

The funny thing is if he were the excellent defender that someone like Pudge Rodriguez was, there probably would be talk about him being one of the ten best players ever.

[BondsOverBabe]

Even if Piazza was just below average like Jorge Posada he might be the best catcher of his generation but Piazza was just absolutely awful

[BigRon]

Piazza certainly belongs in any serious discussion about best catcher. It's clear that he's the best hitting catcher in ML history. It also should be clear that his defense wasn't as bad as many make it out to be. That said, he didn't throw well, and in some eras that is a critical failing. If Piazza had come up in the 60s or 70s, I wonder what would have happened in those high octane base stealing days. It's possible that he would have been run out of the lineup, or at least forced to first base.

Based on that concern, I can't rank Piazza number 1.

[ol' aches and pains]

I would rate Bench and Campanella above Piazza on the strength of their defense. They weren't bad hitters, either.

[fenrir]

Piazza certainly belongs in any serious discussion about best catcher. It's clear that he's the best hitting catcher in ML history. It also should be clear that his defense wasn't as bad as many make it out to be. That said, he didn't throw well, and in some eras that is a critical failing. If Piazza had come up in the 60s or 70s, I wonder what would have happened in those high octane base stealing days. It's possible that he would have been run out of the lineup, or at least forced to first base.

Based on that concern, I can't rank Piazza number 1.

You make some very good points.

[redban]

I believe that Piazza is the number one catcher, and the people who list anyone else 1) overrate catcher defense 2) overrate how bad Piazza was on defense, concentrating only on his poor arm, and 3) compare him to how other catchers were at their BEST, and forget the fact that they were all inconsistent from season to season.

Piazza had pretty much everything working against him:

-He was in poor to mediocre lineups his entire career. Contrast this to ALL the other all time catchers, who were in incredible lineups. This undoubtedly helped them offensively. Put Piazza on the Big Red Machine or some of those Yankees and As teams, and he has Dimaggio type numbers. Maybe several 150 RBI seasons.

-He was killed by his home stadiums. Taking just his road stats, Piazza is probably a top 20 all time hitter, at ANY position. Put him in even an average hitting stadium, and his numbers would be much better.

-May be a minor thing, but he lost time due to the strike. Without it, he goes 30 100 .300 his first 9 seasons.

Even with all this working against him he still did not have an 'off' year until he was in his mid 30s. Other catchers alternated MVP type seasons with less than stellar ones, while Piazza had an MVP type season every year.

I think all of this is just too much for other catchers to overcome.

Another thing you could add to the list is how he started so late. He turned 25 in his rookie season in 1993. Of all the great catchers, Piazza is the only one who came around so old.

Let's say he had started earlier, at around 22 years old - he might have had over 500 career homeruns.

[Freakshow]

For what it's worth, I think his 9.3 WAR in 1997 may be the highest by a catcher ever.

Yep. Most WAR minimum 100 G at catcher:

Rk           Player WAR/pos OPS+  PA Year Age  Tm Lg   BA  OBP  SLG
1       Mike Piazza     9.3  185 633 1997  28 LAD NL .362 .431 .638
2      Johnny Bench     9.1  166 653 1972  24 CIN NL .270 .379 .541
3         Joe Mauer     8.7  134 633 2008  25 MIN AL .328 .413 .451
4    Darrell Porter     8.4  142 679 1979  27 KCR AL .291 .421 .484
5       Gary Carter     7.8  146 653 1982  28 MON NL .293 .381 .510
6      Johnny Bench     7.6  143 708 1974  26 CIN NL .280 .363 .507
7         Joe Mauer     7.5  170 606 2009  26 MIN AL .365 .444 .587
8    Darren Daulton     7.4  156 585 1992  30 PHI NL .270 .385 .524
9        Yogi Berra     7.3  142 596 1956  31 NYY AL .298 .378 .534
10     Chris Hoiles     7.2  162 503 1993  28 BAL AL .310 .416 .585
11   Roy Campanella     7.2  154 590 1953  31 BRO NL .312 .395 .611
12     Carlton Fisk     7.1  162 514 1972  24 BOS AL .293 .370 .538
13        Joe Mauer     7.0  144 608 2006  23 MIN AL .347 .429 .507
14      Mike Piazza     7.0  151 602 1993  24 LAD NL .318 .370 .561
15     Bill Freehan     7.0  145 635 1968  26 DET AL .263 .366 .454
16   Roy Campanella     7.0  159 562 1951  29 BRO NL .325 .393 .590
17     Carlton Fisk     6.8  138 632 1977  29 BOS AL .315 .402 .521
18      Gary Carter     6.7  138 633 1985  31 NYM NL .281 .365 .488
19      Gary Carter     6.7  143 669 1984  30 MON NL .294 .366 .487

[Freakshow]

Yep. Most WAR minimum 100 G at catcher:

Rk           Player WAR/pos OPS+  PA Year Age  Tm Lg   BA  OBP  SLG
1       Mike Piazza     9.3  185 633 1997  28 LAD NL .362 .431 .638
2      Johnny Bench     9.1  166 653 1972  24 CIN NL .270 .379 .541
3         Joe Mauer     8.7  134 633 2008  25 MIN AL .328 .413 .451
4    Darrell Porter     8.4  142 679 1979  27 KCR AL .291 .421 .484
5       Gary Carter     7.8  146 653 1982  28 MON NL .293 .381 .510
6      Johnny Bench     7.6  143 708 1974  26 CIN NL .280 .363 .507
7         Joe Mauer     7.5  170 606 2009  26 MIN AL .365 .444 .587
8    Darren Daulton     7.4  156 585 1992  30 PHI NL .270 .385 .524
9        Yogi Berra     7.3  142 596 1956  31 NYY AL .298 .378 .534
10     Chris Hoiles     7.2  162 503 1993  28 BAL AL .310 .416 .585
11   Roy Campanella     7.2  154 590 1953  31 BRO NL .312 .395 .611
12     Carlton Fisk     7.1  162 514 1972  24 BOS AL .293 .370 .538
13        Joe Mauer     7.0  144 608 2006  23 MIN AL .347 .429 .507
14      Mike Piazza     7.0  151 602 1993  24 LAD NL .318 .370 .561
15     Bill Freehan     7.0  145 635 1968  26 DET AL .263 .366 .454
16   Roy Campanella     7.0  159 562 1951  29 BRO NL .325 .393 .590
17     Carlton Fisk     6.8  138 632 1977  29 BOS AL .315 .402 .521
18      Gary Carter     6.7  138 633 1985  31 NYM NL .281 .365 .488
19      Gary Carter     6.7  143 669 1984  30 MON NL .294 .366 .487

Updated list:

Rk           Player WAR/pos OPS+ Rfield  PA Year Age  Tm Lg HR RBI   BA  OBP  SLG
1      Johnny Bench     9.0  166     13 653 1972  24 CIN NL 40 125 .270 .379 .541
2       Mike Piazza     8.1  185     -2 633 1997  28 LAD NL 40 124 .362 .431 .638
3       Gary Carter     7.9  146     14 653 1982  28 MON NL 29  97 .293 .381 .510
4      Johnny Bench     7.7  143     10 708 1974  26 CIN NL 33 129 .280 .363 .507
5         Joe Mauer     7.6  171      2 606 2009  26 MIN AL 28  96 .365 .444 .587
6    Darrell Porter     7.4  142      9 679 1979  27 KCR AL 20 112 .291 .421 .484
7      Johnny Bench     7.4  141     10 671 1970  22 CIN NL 45 148 .293 .345 .587
8    Roy Campanella     7.1  154      7 590 1953  31 BRO NL 41 142 .312 .395 .611
9    Thurman Munson     6.9  142      9 576 1973  26 NYY AL 20  74 .301 .362 .487
10     Carlton Fisk     6.9  162      1 514 1972  24 BOS AL 22  61 .293 .370 .538
11      Gary Carter     6.8  143      8 669 1984  30 MON NL 27 106 .294 .366 .487
12      Mike Piazza     6.7  153      8 602 1993  24 LAD NL 35 112 .318 .370 .561
13     Carlton Fisk     6.7  138     12 632 1977  29 BOS AL 26 102 .315 .402 .521
14      Gary Carter     6.6  116     27 609 1983  29 MON NL 17  79 .270 .336 .444
15     Chris Hoiles     6.5  162      6 503 1993  28 BAL AL 29  82 .310 .416 .585
16     Bill Freehan     6.5  145      5 635 1968  26 DET AL 25  84 .263 .366 .454
17       Javy Lopez     6.4  169      5 495 2003  32 ATL NL 43 109 .328 .378 .687
18     Rick Wilkins     6.3  151     14 500 1993  26 CHC NL 30  73 .303 .376 .561
19   Darren Daulton     6.3  156      3 585 1992  30 PHI NL 27 109 .270 .385 .524
20     Johnny Bench     6.3  140     10 606 1975  27 CIN NL 28 110 .283 .359 .519
21        Joe Torre     6.3  156     -3 614 1966  25 ATL NL 36 101 .315 .382 .560

[Imapotato]

I think most people can agree that he's the best hitting catcher ever for both peak and career. Is that enough to make him the best catcher ever? How much does his below average defense hurt his case?

For what it's worth, I think his 9.3 WAR in 1997 may be the highest by a catcher ever.

Not to me

No player in the modern era, due to watered down talent, expansion, steroid allegations will ever be the best anything in my eyes

Johnny Bench
Yogi Berra
Gabby Hartnett
Ray Schalk
Rogers Bresnahan
Jim O'Rourke

My top 5 favorites

Campanella only left off due to his tragedy of not playing longer...but he was great

and you CANNOT compare catchers of different eras with any sense of fairness.

Of all the positions outside of Pitcher, Catchers have had different expectations/statistically variance depending on timeframe than any other position in MLB

Billy Sullivan was a top notch catcher in deadball because he probably threw out 70% of baserunners, yet CS was enormous back then due to double steals to scratch one run out. He also had a huge amount of assists and putouts for fielding bunts Yet Billy only hit .212

[leewileyfan]

and you CANNOT compare catchers of different eras with any sense of fairness.

Of all the positions outside of Pitcher, Catchers have had different expectations/statistically variance depending on timeframe than any other position in MLB

Billy Sullivan was a top notch catcher in deadball because he probably threw out 70% of baserunners, yet CS was enormous back then due to double steals to scratch one run out. He also had a huge amount of assists and putouts for fielding bunts Yet Billy only hit .212

I have to disagree. My metric attempts to make exactly those kinds of cross generational comparisons. [And,, I believe it does just that]. Just refer to Post #116 above and see ratings I posted for Gabby Hartnett, Bill Dickey, Mickey Cochrane, Walter Schmidt, Hank Gowdy, Ray Schalk, Muddy Ruel, Bill Killefer, Jimmie Wilson and Rick Ferrell.

[sgb]

I looked up our Field Value numbers for Piazza, Bench, and Berra. FV is our defensive component in the PEVA player rating system. Not saying it's the best (just our attempt at the subject), but it does, as leewileyfan does, attempt to give a cross generation comparison. It compares four components Inning Played, Field Pct., Range Factor, and CS% (where available) in a MAX, AVE., MIN continuum for each season. The Max. value for a catcher is 2.10, minimum (if playing at least 1 inning per max games) is 1.55.

S Piazza Bench Berra
1 1.63 1.87 1.90
2 1.97 2.03 1.66
3 1.75 1.99 1.71
4 1.91 1.90 2.05
5 1.96 1.87 2.05
6 1.86 2.10 2.05
7 1.91 2.05 2.06
8 1.88 2.09 1.89
9 1.95 1.98 2.07
10 1.82 2.10 1.97
11 1.66 1.86 2.08
12 1.55 1.95 2.10
13 1.55 1.91 2.10
14 1.80 1.80 2.10
15 1.55 1.65 1.69
16 DNP 1.63 1.92
17 DNP 1.55 1.72
18 DNP DNP 1.72
19 DNP DNP 1.63
Ave. 1.783 1.902 1.919
High 1.97 2.10 2.10
Low 1.55 1.55 1.63

So Piazza is in the B and C category for most his career, but falls starting in 2001 down to a minimum level catcher defensively. Bench and Berra are in the A and B range most of their careers, with a few seasons at the end showing lower levels, but not as low as Piazza.

Just thought I'd add our minor attempt to the subject. And I'm new here, so if I ever post something that's incorrect for the forum, please let me know. Thanks.

[leewileyfan]

and you CANNOT compare catchers of different eras with any sense of fairness.

Of all the positions outside of Pitcher, Catchers have had different expectations/statistically variance depending on timeframe than any other position in MLB

I got intrigued by this challenge; and, although I have already cited several earlier decade catchers I have highly rated, I went back exclusively to more 1901-1925 catchers to see how they fared. Historically, over the 1901-2011 period, AVERAGE MLB catchers are at or around the .935-.940 range, with higher numbers coming after circa 1930, influenced by factors other than sheer catching skill [my metric Player X utility standard is .925]:

-the disappearance of outlawed/godfathered pitches;
-the new-ball-in-game-turnover rate, a far cry from scuffed, tainted, cut and otherwise "aged" balls in the game;
-glove and mitt and other catching gear technological advances;
-comfort levels, like non-flannel uniforms in games that might now be played at night;
-strike zone changes;
-mound elevation change;

I don't believe it's too big a break to afford these earlier guys a defensive "average" of .920-.925 as a standard. Player X, the utility standard I use, opens the Century at .890; but by the 1920s is around .910-.920 range.

Given that, here are some early 1900s catchers and their ratings:

Fred Jacklitsch .941
Doc Powers .914
Red Dooin .916
George Gibson .920
Gabby Street .954
Bill Carrigan .928
Ira Thomas .931
Johnny Kling .935
Admiral Schlei .941
Lou Criger .952
Jimmy Archer .925
Billy Sullivan .937
Roger Bresnahan .915

Bresnahan was outstanding, more for his versatility than for outstanding glove work at any single position. He played considerable numbers of games at every position on the diamond, always preserving a rather steady proficiency with the bat, outstanding in the light of all the moving around defensively.

At .915 behind the plate, he is about +6 defense runs ahead of a basically competent sub who might be called to replace him [.890-.900].