Mike Piazza - Can an argument be made that he's the best catcher ever?

[leewileyfan]

Here is a question I have asked before though-if a base stealer played in an era with a 50% break even point and stole 2000 bases at a 60% rate would we rate him higher on our list or lower as a result of steal attempts considering that in a typical era he would have cost runs, or probably not run at all?

I honestly believe that we enter an apples-oranges territory when we try to link player performance and team strategy into-the-moment as they play the game from the perspective of a sabermetrician or just a keen observer fan studying game execution and strategy, per se, after the fact, as an academic exercise.

A catcher [individually] brings himself to the park: his work ethic, his talents, his attention span, his powers of observation, his rapport with pitchers, and his arm. That personna gets imprinted on each game situation, subliminally to the catcher - almost instinctive - and in the moment.
It is the sum of what he brings to the table that we evaluate; and our perspective [in the sense of these threads] is post-mortem, considering information, standards, ratios and standard deviations that the catcher pays no mind as he plays the game.

I would incorporate pick-offs by catchers into my metric, if I had a uniform data base for reference that dated back to 1901. It would make sense to me that it would be a considerable modifier to extra bases taken by runners on base when a batted ball is put in play. The threat of being picked off, keeping an on-base runner from both taking any generous lead AND getting a jump start from that lead would be worth - what ... a second, a second-and-a-half ... two seconds? I'd bet it's in the two second range; but I can't prove it.

[brett]

Is there actually any evidence of this? I did a look at Molina and found that runners on first took the extra base at about the same rate on him as they did to his backups. True, it was only one year 's worth of data but I haven't come across anything that shows that this data was a fluke. Plus Thess in the stats I linked to found that oddly enough Piazza was above average in preventing baserunners advancements on balls in play.

If that could be demonstrated it would be something that might cause me to bring him up to the top. Base stealing is a small part of baserunning.

[willshad]

I often wonder why Dickey gets no love in catcher rankings. Why is Berra always assumed to be better? Dickey had a better peak, he just didn't play as long. Dickey actually played more games as a catcher than Berra, and was a better hitter, and probably equal in the field. I think Berra is overrated due to his 3 MVPs, and the fact that Dickey was overshadowed by Ruth and Gehrig.

[Imapotato]

I often wonder why Dickey gets no love in catcher rankings. Why is Berra always assumed to be better? Dickey had a better peak, he just didn't play as long. Dickey actually played more games as a catcher than Berra, and was a better hitter, and probably equal in the field. I think Berra is overrated due to his 3 MVPs, and the fact that Dickey was overshadowed by Ruth and Gehrig.

I can only speak for myself, but Dickey had a powerful lineup to be a part of...he was in an offensive surge era, and spent time in the war torn years

Berra was in the (IMHO) toughest era of baseball history, the 1950's

[leewileyfan]

and you CANNOT compare catchers of different eras with any sense of fairness.

Of all the positions outside of Pitcher, Catchers have had different expectations/statistically variance depending on timeframe than any other position in MLB

I got intrigued by this challenge; and, although I have already cited several earlier decade catchers I have highly rated, I went back exclusively to more 1901-1925 catchers to see how they fared. Historically, over the 1901-2011 period, AVERAGE MLB catchers are at or around the .935-.940 range, with higher numbers coming after circa 1930, influenced by factors other than sheer catching skill [my metric Player X utility standard is .925]:

-the disappearance of outlawed/godfathered pitches;
-the new-ball-in-game-turnover rate, a far cry from scuffed, tainted, cut and otherwise "aged" balls in the game;
-glove and mitt and other catching gear technological advances;
-comfort levels, like non-flannel uniforms in games that might now be played at night;
-strike zone changes;
-mound elevation change;

I don't believe it's too big a break to afford these earlier guys a defensive "average" of .920-.925 as a standard. Player X, the utility standard I use, opens the Century at .890; but by the 1920s is around .910-.920 range.

Given that, here are some early 1900s catchers and their ratings:

Fred Jacklitsch .941
Doc Powers .914
Red Dooin .916
George Gibson .920
Gabby Street .954
Bill Carrigan .928
Ira Thomas .931
Johnny Kling .935
Admiral Schlei .941
Lou Criger .952
Jimmy Archer .925
Billy Sullivan .937
Roger Bresnahan .915

Bresnahan was outstanding, more for his versatility than for outstanding glove work at any single position. He played considerable numbers of games at every position on the diamond, always preserving a rather steady proficiency with the bat, outstanding in the light of all the moving around defensively.

At .915 behind the plate, he is about +6 defense runs ahead of a basically competent sub who might be called to replace him [.890-.900].

[willshad]

I can only speak for myself, but Dickey had a powerful lineup to be a part of...he was in an offensive surge era, and spent time in the war torn years

Berra was in the (IMHO) toughest era of baseball history, the 1950's

Dickey played one half a season during the war in the tail end of his career...in 1943, when he had a 172 OPS+ at age 36. You certainly cannot hold that against him. And Berra was part of pretty good lineups himself, last I checked.

The AL in the 50s was one of the weakest leagues ever. Mantle was able to put up close to 200 OPS+ even in his injury seasons. The only good team was the Yankees, and Berra and mantle did not have to ever play against them. I'm pretty sure Berra does not win 3 MVPs if he plays during the 1930s or the 1990s.

[Ubiquitous]

If that could be demonstrated it would be something that might cause me to bring him up to the top. Base stealing is a small part of baserunning.

And for the most part the catcher plays a small role in baserunning besides stealing bases.

[brett]

I often wonder why Dickey gets no love in catcher rankings. Why is Berra always assumed to be better? Dickey had a better peak, he just didn't play as long. Dickey actually played more games as a catcher than Berra, and was a better hitter, and probably equal in the field. I think Berra is overrated due to his 3 MVPs, and the fact that Dickey was overshadowed by Ruth and Gehrig.

The usual knock on Dickey is that he got to platoon as a hitter, and as well as getting more breaks he got to sit against lefties boosting his rates. He only caught 130 games once and sat entirely when he didn't catch. Only 23% of his plate appearances came against lefties. Berra caught 133 or more in 7 straight seasons and averaged 144 total games for those 7 years and had 28% of his plate appearances against lefties so it looks like Dickey sat an extra 6-7 times against lefties than random, plus the extra days of rest.

[brett]

And for the most part the catcher plays a small role in baserunning besides stealing bases.

Yea if a catcher has a good rate of pickoffs its going to affect his opponents steal rate more than their extra advance rate anyway.

[willshad]

The usual knock on Dickey is that he got to platoon as a hitter, and as well as getting more breaks he got to sit against lefties boosting his rates. He only caught 130 games once and sat entirely when he didn't catch. Only 23% of his plate appearances came against lefties. Berra caught 133 or more in 7 straight seasons and averaged 144 total games for those 7 years and had 28% of his plate appearances against lefties so it looks like Dickey sat an extra 6-7 times against lefties than random, plus the extra days of rest.

his career rates against lefties are not bad.

[brett]

his career rates against lefties are not bad.

No they are normal (lower but normally lower). It was probably more because he had right handed hitting backups. I still feel his offensive and defensive rates would have dropped had he caught those extra 15 games a season.

Dickey and Cochrane again were almost universally regarded as the 2 greatest for quite a long time with Hartnett maybe taking a close 3rd spot.

[Ubiquitous]

Baseball Reference updated their WAR with a bunch of changes that have altered the WAR for a ton of players. Mike Piazza's 1997 season goes from 9.3 WAR to 8.1 WAR. Just one more reason why people shouldn't treat these numbers like they are set in stone.

[fenrir]

His defensive WAR for his career is now slightly above average

[Freakshow]

Yep. Most WAR minimum 100 G at catcher:

Rk           Player WAR/pos OPS+  PA Year Age  Tm Lg   BA  OBP  SLG
1       Mike Piazza     9.3  185 633 1997  28 LAD NL .362 .431 .638
2      Johnny Bench     9.1  166 653 1972  24 CIN NL .270 .379 .541
3         Joe Mauer     8.7  134 633 2008  25 MIN AL .328 .413 .451
4    Darrell Porter     8.4  142 679 1979  27 KCR AL .291 .421 .484
5       Gary Carter     7.8  146 653 1982  28 MON NL .293 .381 .510
6      Johnny Bench     7.6  143 708 1974  26 CIN NL .280 .363 .507
7         Joe Mauer     7.5  170 606 2009  26 MIN AL .365 .444 .587
8    Darren Daulton     7.4  156 585 1992  30 PHI NL .270 .385 .524
9        Yogi Berra     7.3  142 596 1956  31 NYY AL .298 .378 .534
10     Chris Hoiles     7.2  162 503 1993  28 BAL AL .310 .416 .585
11   Roy Campanella     7.2  154 590 1953  31 BRO NL .312 .395 .611
12     Carlton Fisk     7.1  162 514 1972  24 BOS AL .293 .370 .538
13        Joe Mauer     7.0  144 608 2006  23 MIN AL .347 .429 .507
14      Mike Piazza     7.0  151 602 1993  24 LAD NL .318 .370 .561
15     Bill Freehan     7.0  145 635 1968  26 DET AL .263 .366 .454
16   Roy Campanella     7.0  159 562 1951  29 BRO NL .325 .393 .590
17     Carlton Fisk     6.8  138 632 1977  29 BOS AL .315 .402 .521
18      Gary Carter     6.7  138 633 1985  31 NYM NL .281 .365 .488
19      Gary Carter     6.7  143 669 1984  30 MON NL .294 .366 .487

Updated list:

Rk           Player WAR/pos OPS+ Rfield  PA Year Age  Tm Lg HR RBI   BA  OBP  SLG
1      Johnny Bench     9.0  166     13 653 1972  24 CIN NL 40 125 .270 .379 .541
2       Mike Piazza     8.1  185     -2 633 1997  28 LAD NL 40 124 .362 .431 .638
3       Gary Carter     7.9  146     14 653 1982  28 MON NL 29  97 .293 .381 .510
4      Johnny Bench     7.7  143     10 708 1974  26 CIN NL 33 129 .280 .363 .507
5         Joe Mauer     7.6  171      2 606 2009  26 MIN AL 28  96 .365 .444 .587
6    Darrell Porter     7.4  142      9 679 1979  27 KCR AL 20 112 .291 .421 .484
7      Johnny Bench     7.4  141     10 671 1970  22 CIN NL 45 148 .293 .345 .587
8    Roy Campanella     7.1  154      7 590 1953  31 BRO NL 41 142 .312 .395 .611
9    Thurman Munson     6.9  142      9 576 1973  26 NYY AL 20  74 .301 .362 .487
10     Carlton Fisk     6.9  162      1 514 1972  24 BOS AL 22  61 .293 .370 .538
11      Gary Carter     6.8  143      8 669 1984  30 MON NL 27 106 .294 .366 .487
12      Mike Piazza     6.7  153      8 602 1993  24 LAD NL 35 112 .318 .370 .561
13     Carlton Fisk     6.7  138     12 632 1977  29 BOS AL 26 102 .315 .402 .521
14      Gary Carter     6.6  116     27 609 1983  29 MON NL 17  79 .270 .336 .444
15     Chris Hoiles     6.5  162      6 503 1993  28 BAL AL 29  82 .310 .416 .585
16     Bill Freehan     6.5  145      5 635 1968  26 DET AL 25  84 .263 .366 .454
17       Javy Lopez     6.4  169      5 495 2003  32 ATL NL 43 109 .328 .378 .687
18     Rick Wilkins     6.3  151     14 500 1993  26 CHC NL 30  73 .303 .376 .561
19   Darren Daulton     6.3  156      3 585 1992  30 PHI NL 27 109 .270 .385 .524
20     Johnny Bench     6.3  140     10 606 1975  27 CIN NL 28 110 .283 .359 .519
21        Joe Torre     6.3  156     -3 614 1966  25 ATL NL 36 101 .315 .382 .560

[brett]

His defensive WAR for his career is now slightly above average

That is because they include the positional value on the defensive side now.

[leewileyfan]

I, for one, have just found another reason NOT to appreciate the whole "positional value" concept. The reasoning behind this is admittedly very unsophisticated and is based upon this visual image:

Remove the position in question from the game entirely. Then watch the game unfold without anyone there.

[Ubiquitous]

With BRef's latest update to WAR Sean has switched from using Sean Smith's defensive metrics to using BIS's Defensive Runs Saved (DRS) starting from the 2003 season. DRS uses a much more exact and more sophisticated system of tracking balls than Sean Smith's metrics. According to Sean's number Piazza was 33 runs below average since 2003 while according to DRS he was only 23 runs below average. Ivan went from being 21 runs above average to being just 13 runs above average.

[Ubiquitous]

In Max Marchi's latest column he looks into pitch framing before the era or pitchf/x. As has been mentioned previously according to the stats Piazza was a pretty good pitch framer in his day. Since 1988 his runs saved ranks as 9th best and his 78 runs saved by pitch framing would erase the -63 runs his baserunning defense cost him and make him an above average defensive catcher.

[dominik]

In Max Marchi's latest column he looks into pitch framing before the era or pitchf/x. As has been mentioned previously according to the stats Piazza was a pretty good pitch framer in his day. Since 1988 his runs saved ranks as 9th best and his 78 runs saved by pitch framing would erase the -63 runs his baserunning defense cost him and make him an above average defensive catcher.

interesting.

Yadier Molina is only the second best framer -in his Family.

of course in a few years when the electronic strike Zone is ready framing will be gone.

[TomBodet]

Bench bench bench bench bench bench bench bench bench.....Bench. No. 5 is alive.

[wes_kahn]

Earlier in this thread, somebody posted some statistical data that makes me wonder if the statistical formulae are worth much.

It referred to defensive runs. I noticed that Bill Dickey had a high number in this stat, while Mickey Cochrane had a negative number.

All the baseball experts of that time, including players, managers, officials, and scouts believed that Dickey was by far the better offensive weapon but the Cochrane was the best defensive catcher since Johnny Kling. I know this new era of statistical data is all the rage, but I have faith that the experts of the day knew what they were talking about.

I did not get to see those two players. I am old, but not that old. I did see Campaneris and Berra, as well as other greats that followed (Johnny Edwards, Bill Freehan, Johnny Bench, Carlton Fisk, Thurman Munson, etc.)

If I had to choose a catcher from 1950 to the present, I would take Berra every time. He could do everything you want out of that position. The Yankees 1949 to 1964 dominance coincided with his playing. I was the biggest anti-Yankee and anti-Giant in my youth, as I lived and breathed Brooklyn/Los Angeles Dodgers, but I would have gladly taken Berra over Campanella and Mantle or Mays over Snider.

I was a big Piazza fan, but he should have been a first baseman. He could not handle pitchers like Jeff Torborg, Johnny Roseboro, Joe Ferguson, Steve Yeager, or Mike Scioscia. He was too stiff, like Bill Sudakis and Duke Sims. The Dodgers stopped being a pitching farm when Piazza became the starting catcher.

[Victory Faust]

Earlier in this thread, somebody posted some statistical data that makes me wonder if the statistical formulae are worth much.

It referred to defensive runs. I noticed that Bill Dickey had a high number in this stat, while Mickey Cochrane had a negative number.

All the baseball experts of that time, including players, managers, officials, and scouts believed that Dickey was by far the better offensive weapon but the Cochrane was the best defensive catcher since Johnny Kling. I know this new era of statistical data is all the rage, but I have faith that the experts of the day knew what they were talking about.

Yeah, when numbers contradict popular opinion, some automatically side with the numbers, despite knowing that numbers, like the naked eye, can also lie sometimes.

Look at BBref's recent "adjustment" of WAR -- yet another reason to continue viewing the stat with skepticism. There are so many subjective elements to the WAR formula, I can't understand why people who purport to be objective scientists would even bother with it.

Don't get me wrong -- there are some great saber stats. But when you can "adjust" a formula and get markedly different results, what does that tell you? That more tweaking of that formula needs to be done? Maybe. Or maybe the formula itself is, from the start, flawed.

Things like SLG, OPS, OBP are set in stone. We don't have to blindly rely on such variables as how much "value" the formula's author decided to place on the CF position vs., say, catchers; how much "value" is placed on being a rookie; or whether the defensive metric -- itself highly subjective -- is flawed.

That's not even talking about the concept of WAR itself, which seems kind of pointless to me -- giving a player credit for putting up individual statistics that would have led a virtual team to a virtual "win," based on mean averages. To me, this seems to be the saber argument against pitcher wins, only in reverse. You're comparing a team accomplishment to an indiviual one.

Why even bother with such an exercise if your goal is truly looking at player performance objectively?

I don't always trust people's eyes. But I don't throw it out altogether. Sabers would ask me to extend the same courtesy to stats which have proven themselves to be flawed as well.

[Ubiquitous]

Once upon a time they "adjusted" conventional wisdom as well. Does that mean Babe Ruth isn't a great player and Ty Cobb is the greatest player of all time? Things changes. Views change. Opinions change. There is no one true standard from which all else is compared to. Some guy in 1930 having an opinion at that moment in time is no truer or false than one guy having an opinion in 1988.

[PVNICK]

I never read that about Cochrane being the best defensive catcher since Kling. Being from the NYC metropolitan area what I did read about was Dickey spending much time with Yogi Berra and turning him from an awkward young catcher into a solid defensive catcher.

[Cap78]

Loved watching piazza bat...it seemed like his swing/bat reached further across the plate than anyone else