Players Overshadowed by Steroid Users

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Plenty of players were "blatantly obvious", but Sammy gets attention because he did things they couldn't do. Which makes your claim that he wasn't an elite player even more ridiculous. We'll just ignore the 600 home runs and three seasons of more than 60 HR. Nonsense.
Prior to 1998, he reeled off a 5 year stretch of 170 HR, averaging 34 a season (take away the strike and time missed with injuries, and you're looking at 40 HR averaged per 162 games). He was already an elite level power hitter before he went crazy in 1998.

Forget the elite definition.
Were talking power and steroids.

How did Sammy turn into Superman over those 4 seasons 1998-2001.
The more accurate way to measure a hitters home run hitting ability is not always shown by total numbers.
The most accurate measurment, AB/HR ratio.
I'm starting from the year 1992 because before that Sammy was White Sox, different park.

1992-1997 AB. 2990---HR 178----AB/HR ratio 16.7
1998-2001 AB. 2449---HR 243----AB/HR ratio 10.0
How does he do it, from a home run every 16 at bats to every 10 at bats, that drop is off the chart. Only two other players in that era chopped so much off their previous AB/HR ratio, Mac and Barry and we know what took place there.

Some just don't want to see the obvious. Whats the explanation, he just got that much better and stronger, for no reason.
He not only topped 60, he Averaged 60 home runs for 4 seasons. He wasn't even hitting an average of 40 before that.
His rep is done, who will take all his numbers seriously even though they go into the book.

[Joe33]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/column...ard&id=4264973

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...ids/index.html

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports...,5431727.story

The "2003 list" has never been confirmed as legitimate. For all we know, it's a complete fabrication and hoax.

[Joe33]

Forget the elite definition.
Were talking power and steroids.

How did Sammy turn into Superman over those 4 seasons 1998-2001.
The more accurate way to measure a hitters home run hitting ability is not always shown by total numbers.
The most accurate measurment, AB/HR ratio.
I'm starting from the year 1992 because before that Sammy was White Sox, different park.

1992-1997 AB. 2990---HR 178----AB/HR ratio 16.7
1998-2001 AB. 2449---HR 243----AB/HR ratio 10.0
How does he do it, from a home run every 16 at bats to every 10 at bats, that drop is off the chart. Only two other players in that era chopped so much off their previous AB/HR ratio, Mac and Barry and we know what took place there.

Some just don't want to see the obvious. Whats the explanation, he just got that much better and stronger, for no reason.
He not only topped 60, he Averaged 60 home runs for 4 seasons. He wasn't even hitting an average of 40 before that.
His rep is done, who will take all his numbers seriously even though they go into the book.

Like I said, I prefer to use my eyes, for me a player's physique is a more telling sign of use than his numbers. There are plenty of guys who had lousy numbers but looked so obvious, even more than so a Sosa or McGwire. Take a player like Pat Lennon for example. In his time with the A's (1997), he was perhaps the most obvious user in the league, yet he hit 1 HR in 131 ABs. Sosa very well may have used, but there's as much evidence against him as most of the other top tier players of the time.

If Sosa can't be taken seriously, as you say, then what of a player like Alex Rodriguez who has admitted use after denying it for years? Do you distinguish him from a Sammy Sosa, and if so, why?

[bluesky5]

Joe33,

Using these drugs is in every way detrimental to the sport of baseball, to sports in general.

Would you want to enter into a profession where there is a glass ceiling unless you want to inject the testosterone and/or estrogen of human or non-human male or female? Manny Ramirez's PED's were those produced by the placenta or fetus during different stages of embryonic development. HGH is used to treat children's growth disorders and is never prescribed to anyone who is not sick. Epitestosterone is produced in mammary cyst fluid in the prostate - tasty.

If you think using these substances is a reasonable expectation to place on someone to make an honest living, then that is your prerogative.

If you think it is ok to illegally acquire drugs normally prescribed to sick children and people with diseases to hit home runs, then that is also your prerogative.

I will assume that is not your opinion. Until you state you think those things are ok.

[bluesky5]

The "2003 list" has never been confirmed as legitimate. For all we know, it's a complete fabrication and hoax.

Fair enough. It is out in the ethos tho. We really don't know. It was an asinine post on my part.

[Joe33]

Joe33,

Using these drugs is in every way detrimental to the sport of baseball, to sports in general.

Would you want to enter into a profession where there is a glass ceiling unless you want to inject the testosterone and/or estrogen of human or non-human male or female? Manny Ramirez's PED's were those produced by the placenta or fetus during different stages of embryonic development. HGH is used to treat children's growth disorders and is never prescribed to anyone who is not sick. Epitestosterone is produced in mammary cyst fluid in the prostate - tasty.

If you think using these substances is a reasonable expectation to place on someone to make an honest living, then that is your prerogative.

If you think it is ok to illegally acquire drugs normally prescribed to sick children and people with diseases to hit home runs, then that is also your prerogative.

I will assume that is not your opinion. Until you state you think those things are ok.

I took issue with your stating that Sosa was not an elite player, when clearly he was. His numbers were ridiculously so.

I'm not defending nor condemning steroid use. It happened, sorting out the users from the non-users or designating levels of guilt, etc is pointless. Hall of Fame voters don't know who used and who didn't, and if you believe Jose Canseco - who has been pretty accurate to date - there are already steroid users in the Hall of Fame.

No one would use estrogen for performance enhancement. Manny was using clomid or another similar substance to restart his natural testosterone production, part of what's known as "post cycle therapy" among those coming off a steroid cycle. The substances are banned in baseball for that reason, there's really no other reason a player would use them other than to recover from steroid/testosterone use.

My own personal opinions on steroid use have no bearing on the issues being debated here.

[bluesky5]

I took issue with your stating that Sosa was not an elite player, when clearly he was. His numbers were ridiculously so.

The ends does not justify the means. Sammy Sosa would not be HoF caliber if not for PED's. Look at what someone has to put into their body to achieve what he did or any of the others did. Is this reasonable behavior?

It happened, sorting out the users from the non-users or designating levels of guilt, etc is pointless.

The only way to stop the detrimental behavior is punishment. My one personal problem is Bonds. But I would much rather see him excluded than in.

I will agree designating levels of guilt is pointless. They are all guilty.

No one would use estrogen for performance enhancement. Manny was using clomid or another similar substance to restart his natural testosterone production, part of what's known as "post cycle therapy" among those coming off a steroid cycle. The substances are banned in baseball for that reason, there's really no other reason a player would use them other than to recover from steroid/testosterone use.

He still needs to put it into his body.

[bluesky5]

Once again apathy toward steroids is equal to condoning it.

You will not have a job in this business unless you continually put these substances into your body. Illegally acquired drugs, with needles acquired from who?, administered by a teammate in a bathroom stall. Sounds great. Sounds like something everyone should want to do.

If the players do not think it inherently wrong or dangerous then why is/was it not done in the open? Why was/is it hush, hush? The players come out and apologize! This is not complete admission of guilt? Of wrong doing? Of immoral, non-condoned activity?

[SHOELESSJOE3]

Like I said, I prefer to use my eyes, for me a player's physique is a more telling sign of use than his numbers. There are plenty of guys who had lousy numbers but looked so obvious, even more than so a Sosa or McGwire. Take a player like Pat Lennon for example. In his time with the A's (1997), he was perhaps the most obvious user in the league, yet he hit 1 HR in 131 ABs. Sosa very well may have used, but there's as much evidence against him as most of the other top tier players of the time.

If Sosa can't be taken seriously, as you say, then what of a player like Alex Rodriguez who has admitted use after denying it for years? Do you distinguish him from a Sammy Sosa, and if so, why?

AROD, he or any other is no different, not any better. Sammy's name is on the list but he still denies using. Only reason for not receiving a penalty, substance used was not banned at the time.
Also not giving AROD a free pass at least he doesn't come up with the phony excuse like so many others............must be a false reading or the old Barry Bonds Gary Sheffield BS line.....I was unaware of what I was using.

Sammy was a very good ballplayer, he made a mistake, Just like two great ballplayer, Bonds and Clemens, they tarnished their reputation, put some of their numbers in doubt.

[Joltin' Joe]

Speaking of Sosa, talk about a player overshadowed by another juicer(s)! How can you hit over 60 dongs in three season and not lead the league in any of those seasons!

[Joe33]

AROD, he or any other is no different, not any better. Sammy's name is on the list but he still denies using. Only reason for not receiving a penalty, substance used was not banned at the time.
Also not giving AROD a free pass at least he doesn't come up with the phony excuse like so many others............must be a false reading or the old Barry Bonds Gary Sheffield BS line.....I was unaware of what I was using.

Sammy was a very good ballplayer, he made a mistake, Just like two great ballplayer, Bonds and Clemens, they tarnished their reputation, put some of their numbers in doubt.

That's fair enough.

A-Rod did deny use for a long time though, until it became obvious the net was closing in on him, with a reporter investigating his use all the way back to high school. A-Rod may have been the very first star player to have used all the way through his high school, minor league and pro career.

Speaking of Sosa, talk about a player overshadowed by another juicer(s)! How can you hit over 60 dongs in three season and not lead the league in any of those seasons!

True, and probably how much of the era played out. Users overshadowed other users, whether through better talent or better use.

Once again apathy toward steroids is equal to condoning it.

You will not have a job in this business unless you continually put these substances into your body. Illegally acquired drugs, with needles acquired from who?, administered by a teammate in a bathroom stall. Sounds great. Sounds like something everyone should want to do.

If the players do not think it inherently wrong or dangerous then why is/was it not done in the open? Why was/is it hush, hush? The players come out and apologize! This is not complete admission of guilt? Of wrong doing? Of immoral, non-condoned activity?

Of course the players knew it wasn't above board. There's the legal issues, and they'd have been aware of the story it would have been had evidence of use been uncovered by the media. If you recall back to 1988, Canseco was questioned about possible steroid use, it was a big story at one point during his 40/40 season and lingered into the World Series. The focus was probably greater being the same summer of Ben Johnson's world record 100m and positive test for Winstrol, and the fact that Canseco did things no other player had before.

For me, it's less of a moral issue than it is for others. I agree with you on the feeling that a player had to juice to keep up, stay in the league or excel. A player shouldn't feel compelled to use, but I'm sure it happened. If I was in that position.

[fenrir]

That's fair enough.

A-Rod did deny use for a long time though, until it became obvious the net was closing in on him, with a reporter investigating his use all the way back to high school. A-Rod may have been the very first star player to have used all the way through his high school, minor league and pro career.



True, and probably how much of the era played out. Users overshadowed other users, whether through better talent or better use.



Of course the players knew it wasn't above board. There's the legal issues, and they'd have been aware of the story it would have been had evidence of use been uncovered by the media. If you recall back to 1988, Canseco was questioned about possible steroid use, it was a big story at one point during his 40/40 season and lingered into the World Series. The focus was probably greater being the same summer of Ben Johnson's world record 100m and positive test for Winstrol, and the fact that Canseco did things no other player had before.

For me, it's less of a moral issue than it is for others. I agree with you on the feeling that a player had to juice to keep up, stay in the league or excel. A player shouldn't feel compelled to use, but I'm sure it happened. If I was in that position.

Not sure how long arod may or may not have used, but I'm pretty sure Canseco admitted to using since the minor leagues, no?

Regardless, any player could have cheated longer than we think. Nobody truly knows when anyone (Bonds, Clemens, Arod, Manny, Sosa, etc) truly started using, it will always be guess work.

[Joe33]

Not sure how long arod may or may not have used, but I'm pretty sure Canseco admitted to using since the minor leagues, no?

Regardless, any player could have cheated longer than we think. Nobody truly knows when anyone (Bonds, Clemens, Arod, Manny, Sosa, etc) truly started using, it will always be guess work.

Yeah, Canseco started using in high A ball if I remember correctly. It was either there or AA.

I agree completely. Trying to pinpoint when someone started is impossible without solid evidence, which simply doesn't exist. I find also find it hard to believe high school and college athletes were using in the 60s-80s and baseball was all but completely clean.

[NYYankeesFan92]

Roger Clemens has just been acquitted of all charges. Good, now leave him alone.

[fenrir]

Roger Clemens has just been acquitted of all charges. Good, now leave him alone.

Court of public opinion is different than the court of law sir.

[ol' aches and pains]

Speaking of Sosa, talk about a player overshadowed by another juicer(s)! How can you hit over 60 dongs in three season and not lead the league in any of those seasons!

That's why we call it "The Steroid Era". None of the numbers can be trusted.

[Los Bravos]

Roger Clemens has just been acquitted of all charges. Good, now leave him alone.

If that includes him never fumbling through a speech on a largely empty stage in Cooperstown, you've got a deal.

[Imapotato]

You cannot always go by the eye test

As one would think Frank Thomas would be #1 steroid user, yet was ardent about testing and sai he'd be 1st in line because as a clean player he was being overshadowed by cheats

[StanTheMan]

Court of public opinion is different than the court of law sir.

And thank goodness the Hall of Fame does not need "beyond a reasonable doubt" as it is NOT a court of law, nor should it be held to the same standards. In addition, the implied answer on a ballot is a NO, which must be changed to a YES by the voter, who is allowed to have a lower threshold of doubt required to come to a conclusion than a jury member is instructed, no - REQUIRED, to use when listening to testimony and lawyers.

Innocent until proven guilty becomes.... NOT enshrined until the voter CHOOSES to vote yes.

[StanTheMan]

Speaking of Sosa, talk about a player overshadowed by another juicer(s)! How can you hit over 60 dongs in three season and not lead the league in any of those seasons!

Easy.

The other guy benefitted from his illegal drugs slightly more than Sammy.