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Thread: Phils BBF franchise HOF second chance election

  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by jalbright View Post
    That said, the argument that Castillo is the equal of many other franchise inductees may be a powerful one, one I'd love to see fleshed out. Since I'm at least near the fence on him, that's the kind of thing that could get him one more vote at least, and maybe more.
    I don't know if THIS is the right place to post this, but Castillo is better than Colorado's Vinny Castilla, who got in the Rockies HOF the 1st try. Both are middle IF of newer expansion clubs, but Castillo has more WAR and more awards/honors. We can say the same regarding Andres Galarraga in the Rockies HOF.

    Other middle IFers in team's HOFs who have less or equal WAR than Castillo with FLA :
    Julio Franco - Rangers
    Vern Stephens - Red Sox
    Jose Vidro - Expos/Nats
    Roberto Alomar - Blue Jays
    Last edited by dgarza; 04-29-2012 at 01:23 PM.

  2. #42
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    Let's save the arguments for (or against) Castillo for the next time he's actually on the ballot, please.

    Amended:

    If you really need to discuss it now, I'll suggest the general discussion thread for this project, here: http://www.baseball-fever.com/showth...cussion-thread, as I've used that thread to hold arguments for use in the individual team threads when we get to them. I've copied dgarza's post above and put it in that general discussion thread.
    Last edited by jalbright; 04-29-2012 at 02:06 PM.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  3. #43
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    Just under three days left in this election.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  4. #44
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    The Phillies had seven votes, enough to elect candidates. Those above the '========= line are elected, those below it are not.

    Players
    6 Charlie Ferguson
    6 von Hayes
    6 Curt Simmons
    = =============
    5 Elmer Flick
    5 Al Orth
    5 Chris Short
    5 Cy Williams
    4 Darren Daulton
    4 Lenny Dykstra
    4 Willie Jones
    4 Garry Maddox
    3 Larry Bowa
    3 Manny Trillo
    2 Bob Boone

    Contributor
    6 Dallas Green
    = ===========
    5 Phillie Phanatic
    4 Pat Moran
    4 Al Reach
    4 Harry Wright
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  5. #45
    criminy.

    if I'd thought for a moment that Cy Williams wouldn't be elected to the Phillies' Hall of Fame .... well, I don't know - just look at the "Bullpen" article on him at
    baseball-reference.com ...

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalbright View Post
    Contributor
    6 Dallas Green
    = ===========
    5 Phillie Phanatic
    4 Pat Moran
    4 Al Reach
    4 Harry Wright
    Oh, lordy loo. We narrowly escaped electing a mascot to a franchise HOF. I'm not certain if I would have continued contributing to this project if it had made it in. Seriously.
    *** Submit your personal HOF as your ballot for the Single Ballot BBF Hall of Fame! *** Also: Buck the Fraves!

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by westsidegrounds View Post
    criminy.

    if I'd thought for a moment that Cy Williams wouldn't be elected to the Phillies' Hall of Fame .... well, I don't know - just look at the "Bullpen" article on him at
    baseball-reference.com ...
    It is a bit of a surprise. This and the omission of Johnny Kling from the Cubs HOF have been the two biggest snubs in this project.

  8. #48
    My apologies for not voting. I've been buried with a bunch of things. For what little it's worth, I would have voted for Flick, Orth, Short, Williams among others- so, they all would have been elected had I been the 8th voter. I also probably would have voted for the Phillie Phanatic, so DJC should be ecstatic that I didn't vote!

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigRon View Post
    My apologies for not voting. I've been buried with a bunch of things. For what little it's worth, I would have voted for Flick, Orth, Short, Williams among others- so, they all would have been elected had I been the 8th voter. I also probably would have voted for the Phillie Phanatic, so DJC should be ecstatic that I didn't vote!
    Not so much ecstatic. I can't remember the last time I've been ecstatic. It just would have made the whole project seem like a farce. So I would have wasted a lot of time and effort into contributing to and voting in almost all of the elections so far. That's all.
    *** Submit your personal HOF as your ballot for the Single Ballot BBF Hall of Fame! *** Also: Buck the Fraves!

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by DJC View Post
    It just would have made the whole project seem like a farce. So I would have wasted a lot of time and effort into contributing to and voting in almost all of the elections so far. That's all.
    To you, perhaps. But, there's no doubt that a few mascots have had very significant, positive effects on fan enjoyment- whether we "purists" like it or not.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJC View Post
    Oh, lordy loo. We narrowly escaped electing a mascot to a franchise HOF. I'm not certain if I would have continued contributing to this project if it had made it in. Seriously.
    I wasn't heavily invested in the Phanatic, so his failure to make it doesn't disappoint me like Maddox and Short do. That said, I can only say (as you are doubtless aware) strong antipathy toward some of the candidates you put forward. The only way we're going to resolve those issues are with votes.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigRon View Post
    My apologies for not voting. I've been buried with a bunch of things. For what little it's worth, I would have voted for Flick, Orth, Short, Williams among others- so, they all would have been elected had I been the 8th voter. I also probably would have voted for the Phillie Phanatic, so DJC should be ecstatic that I didn't vote!
    Stuff happens. If you're back though, I'd like to invite you to vote in the Diamondback, Rockie and Indian elections.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by jalbright View Post
    I wasn't heavily invested in the Phanatic, so his failure to make it doesn't disappoint me like Maddox and Short do. That said, I can only say (as you are doubtless aware) strong antipathy toward some of the candidates you put forward. The only way we're going to resolve those issues are with votes.
    Well, at least they're human.

    I think if there were some guy who donned a mascot costume and performed in front of the crowd for many years, then that guy -- not the fictional character he's playing -- would at least be a legitimate candidate. I wouldn't vote for him, but his entry into a franchise Hall wouldn't be a travesty (relatively speaking, of course).
    *** Submit your personal HOF as your ballot for the Single Ballot BBF Hall of Fame! *** Also: Buck the Fraves!

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by DJC View Post
    Well, at least they're human.
    The Phanatic did more for the Phillies than half of your real life candidates did for the Rockies. At least the Phanatic brought a smile to the fans of the Phillies for many years, unlike most of the very forgettable wastes of time you and dgarza nominated for the Rockies.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjpm74 View Post
    The Phanatic did more for the Phillies than half of your real life candidates did for the Rockies. At least the Phanatic brought a smile to the fans of the Phillies for many years, unlike most of the very forgettable wastes of time you and dgarza nominated for the Rockies.
    OK, then. When the Red Sox second chance round comes, I'll be sure to nominate the Green Monster as a contributor.
    *** Submit your personal HOF as your ballot for the Single Ballot BBF Hall of Fame! *** Also: Buck the Fraves!

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjpm74 View Post
    The Phanatic did more for the Phillies than half of your real life candidates did for the Rockies. At least the Phanatic brought a smile to the fans of the Phillies for many years, unlike most of the very forgettable wastes of time you and dgarza nominated for the Rockies.
    To be absolutely fair, dgarza nominated only Bichette, and he had gotten a majority of the votes the first time around. DJC's suggestion of Burks was a candidate who had also exceeded 50% of the vote. I was surprised to be reminded of that, and certainly am disappointed in those results, but they did occur. DJC hasn't voted yet in the Rockie second chance election, but it seems that the three blank ballots so far (yours, mine and NJRob's) will almost surely sink that collection of nominees, which is as I think it should be.

    I think it also fair to point out that clowning in baseball has a long and rich history. It was a staple in the minors, and Negro Leaguers themselves did it to put fans in the stands (and they usually got paid based on the gate). One of the more famous baseball clowns was Max Pankin (sp?), who had a long career of it. Ted Giannoulas (the San Diego Chicken) revived the form with the mascot disguise, and lots of teams emulated it. Dave Raymond as the Phillie Phanatic was one of the more successful emulators. I preferred voting for the Phanatic over Dave Raymond on a couple of grounds: 1) Raymond no longer plays the role; 2) the mascot is still quite popular; and 3) everybody knows the Phanatic while not everyone knows the connection between Raymond and the mascot. I don't expect any of that to sway DJC, and that's fine. I haven't been kind to owners who are just money men as a bias of mine, and he's as entitled to his own sentiments on mascots as I am to my sentiments about money men.
    Last edited by jalbright; 05-07-2012 at 07:16 AM.
    Seen on a bumper sticker: If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
    Some minds are like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set.
    A Lincoln: I don't think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by jalbright View Post

    Negro Leaguers

    Max Pankin (sp?), .
    Most notably the Indianapolis Clowns, who were kind of the Harlem Globetrotters of baseball. Well, they were an independent team, not league affiliated, but nearly on the same level as the league teams. When they did apply to join the Negro Leagues, the other teams felt they had moved beyond that type of thing and refused to let them in unless the Clowns got serious.


    Patkin

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by jalbright View Post
    To be absolutely fair, dgarza nominated only Bichette, and he had gotten a majority of the votes the first time around.
    Thank you

    One of the more famous baseball clowns was Max Pankin (sp?), who had a long career of it.
    I did vote for Patkin once... http://www.baseball-fever.com/showth...14#post1924514


    Ted Giannoulas (the San Diego Chicken) revived the form with the mascot disguise, and lots of teams emulated it.
    Padre nominations are up now... I've thought about him.

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