No Spin

[rodk]

My kid got a hit to the opposite field, and I could see the ball had no spin whatever when it exited his bat. Should I take that as being a good sign that he got so much bat on the pitch that it stopped the rotation, or does it not prove anything?

thanks.

[Jake Patterson]

My kid got a hit to the opposite field, and I could see the ball had no spin whatever when it exited his bat. Should I take that as being a good sign that he got so much bat on the pitch that it stopped the rotation, or does it not prove anything?

thanks.

One of our members is a physicist... Let's see what he says. I don't feel it's good or bad... The difference between that and the next hit is milimeters...

[jbooth]

My kid got a hit to the opposite field, and I could see the ball had no spin whatever when it exited his bat. Should I take that as being a good sign that he got so much bat on the pitch that it stopped the rotation, or does it not prove anything?

thanks.

It's simply a very rare occurrence that once in a great while the bat and ball meet in such a way that the ball leaves the bat with no spin. It means nothing in regard to the quality of the swing.

As far as the ball's action, it travels farther with spin, particularly with backspin.

[songtitle]

He hit it dead center, resulting in a 'knuckleball'.

This picture isn't technically 100% correct, but it's close enough to start this discussion.


Someone here had a great picture that shows how the force of the bat impact drives through the center of the ball, which is more accurate than the above depiction.

[jbolt_2000]

I would put this under the category of "don't worry about the things you can't control."

There may be positives or negatives to rotation off of the bat (or lack thereof), but I don't its realistic to ask a batter to swing in a manner that forces a certain rotation from the ball. You can try - but I think there are too many variables just from the pitcher (e.g. velocity, type of pitch, location, etc...), let alone variables in the actual batter (e.g. imperfect mechanics, varying bat speed, fatigue, etc...).

[jbolt_2000]

It's simply a very rare occurrence that once in a great while the bat and ball meet in such a way that the ball leaves the bat with no spin. It means nothing in regard to the quality of the swing.

As far as the ball's action, it travels farther with spin, particularly with backspin.

I second this response ^

[songtitle]

I would put this under the category of "don't worry about the things you can't control."

I hear this all the time regarding this topic, but I don't think that's totally accurate.

If you swing mostly 'down' (I know... what is down?), then you will mostly create top spin. If you swing from your knees upward, you will create lots of popups, etc.

At one point, when I was playing around using linear hitting in old man's slow pitch softball, I would knuckle 50% of the balls.

So, I think your swing path can greatly effect the tendency to generate top/back spin.

[jbolt_2000]

He hit it dead center, resulting in a 'knuckleball'.

This picture isn't technically 100% correct, but it's close enough for this discussion.

I ask my players to work on hitting just below center (as noted in the "Optimal" line) as this will produce line drives.
I stay away from talking about swinging for rotation as I don't feel its realistic to ask they try to spin the ball. However, I do explain the physics behind rotation and how the ball travels with or without it.

[jbolt_2000]

I hear this all the time regarding this topic, but I don't think that's totally accurate.

If you swing mostly 'down' (I know... what is down?), then you will mostly create top spin. If you swing from your knees upward, you will create lots of popups, etc.

At one point, when I was playing around using linear hitting in old man's slow pitch softball, I would knuckle 50% of the balls.

So, I think your swing path can greatly effect the tendency to generate top/back spin.

Makes sense - but do you think the top/back spin causes the grounder or pop fly or is it just the location of where the bat met the ball? Or both?
I see where rotation affects the path of the ball, but is it fair to the batter to get this detailed in their swing? Are we over thinking it? Or maybe I am over thinking its simplicity???

[azmatsfan]

Swinging down may create more top spin, but the force of the bat on ball will be diminished. What little you gain from the top spin, you've lost much more by not hitting the ball squarely, nor swinging on plane with the pitch.

[Swing Coach]

Rodk,

Do you have video of this amazing strike by your son? I will post it on my amazing baseball hits website. Did you actually see his bat stop the spin of the ball in person, or was that the story that got spread around?

[Jake Patterson]

Rodk,
Do you have video of this amazing strike by your son? I will post it on my amazing baseball hits website. Did you actually see his bat stop the spin of the ball in person, or was that the story that got spread around?

Swing,
Are you questioning that this can happen??? Any one who has played or coached has seen plenty of knuckling line drives. Very difficult to catch...

[Chris O'Leary]

My kid got a hit to the opposite field, and I could see the ball had no spin whatever when it exited his bat. Should I take that as being a good sign that he got so much bat on the pitch that it stopped the rotation, or does it not prove anything?

thanks.

I have documented this in my piece on The Myth of Backspin in Hitting

[Stampede]

Does his bat slow down or nearly stop at contact? I have seen "no spin" happen alot when kids do this.

[Jake Patterson]

Does his bat slow down or nearly stop at contact? I have seen "no spin" happen alot when kids do this.

How does this explain it at the HS and College level??

[songtitle]

I have documented this in my piece on The Myth of Backspin in Hitting

Again, you can see that this ball wasn't hit with backspin.

Anyone without video equipment can visually see a hit ball that knuckles.

Chris, I have used a Trackman that measures spin on hit baseballs. I can tell you that your 'piece' is wildly incorrect. Most balls hit for the day were spinning from 2000 - 3500 rpm. Most were in the 2000-2500 range.

Balls hit by my son's 10-15 mph slower bat speed and 3000-3500 backspin went roughly the same distance as HS and older players with 2000-2500 backspin. This to say that son had a better swing plane, which generated more spin, thus more distance.

[Stampede]

It doesn't, but I bet it happens alot less at those levels. What I am talking about is almost like deadening a bunt with loose hands and weak wrists in combination with squaring the ball up.

How does this explain it at the HS and College level??

[dominik]

He hit it dead center, resulting in a 'knuckleball'.

This picture isn't technically 100% correct, but it's close enough to start this discussion.


Someone here had a great picture that shows how the force of the bat impact drives through the center of the ball, which is more accurate than the above depiction.

It also depends on the pitch. if you hit a FB right through the core it will have topspin since it still has the original spin. to reverse it you slightly need to hit below center to reverse the spin. for a CB it is the other way round. also through the center is compared to the swing direction which means usully dead on will be slightly below the center of the ball (most hitters swing with an uppercut).


Also backspin does add several feet of ball flight but it also decreases exit velocity. I'm not sure which is more important. given the same exit speed of course a backspin flies farther than a knuckle but you have to get the same exit speed.

[Jake Patterson]

It doesn't, but I bet it happens alot less at those levels. What I am talking about is almost like deadening a bunt with loose hands and weak wrists in combination with squaring the ball up.

I can assure you as a former infielder that it does happen and the are tough to catch...

[The Uncoach]

I can assure you as a former infielder that it does happen and the are tough to catch...

I can back this up as a former left fielder. It does happen.

[JJA]

http://jjavideos.onlinewebshop.net/tob.jpg

Here is the picture that was referenced previously. As many have now stated, hitting a the ball like a knuckleball isn't anything important. It simply means that the bat's force got directed through the center of mass of the ball (the bottom two pictures). When this freak occurence happens, the bat's force does not apply a torque to the baseball (the upper 4 pictures), thus the ball does not spin. As dom pointed out, this argument incorrectly ignores the spin on the ball from the pitcher but the general principle applies.

These pictures were previously posted because some people incorrectly believe you can only get topspin by hitting the bottom half of the ball and backspin by hitting the top half of the ball (i.e., hitting down on the ball). This is not true. One can get topspin or backspin by hitting either side of the ball depending on the direction the bat is going (top 4 pictures).

But when it comes off with zero spin, it really doesn't mean much. It does mean the kid hit the ball dead in the center which is good, but it really is more of a freak occurence than anything else. Even hitting the ball very slightly off center will create spin.

Hope this helps - JJA

[UAME]

I hear this all the time regarding this topic, but I don't think that's totally accurate.

If you swing mostly 'down' (I know... what is down?), then you will mostly create top spin. If you swing from your knees upward, you will create lots of popups, etc.

This line of reasoning only views one side of the coin. Think of a "down" swing path and a "down" pitch arc, both paths intersecting in a wide V shape where the bat and the ball only occupy the same space for a brief instant. (Anyone got the illustration from Ted William's Science of Hitting book handy?) Anyway, your side of the coin only considers when the bat arrives to the ball contact area slightly late. In other words, the ball has begun to drop out of the "perfect contact zone" so the bat hits the ball above it's center of gravity. The flip side of the coin is that just as many downward swing paths can produce back spin and pop-ups if the bat arrives slightly early. In this scenario, the bat passes through the contact zone prior to the ball's arrival, then the bottom portion of the ball (below the center of gravity) strikes the top half of the bat. Voila, backspin!

At one point, when I was playing around using linear hitting in old man's slow pitch softball, I would knuckle 50% of the balls.

So, I think your swing path can greatly effect the tendency to generate top/back spin.

I think it's easier to hit knucklers in slow pitch softball. Larger ball / smaller barrel bat ratio = easier to align CG's of collision. Also, pitches are delivered with MUCH lower RPM's, so the bat isn't having to negate as much spin on the ball.

If you play the field long enough (especially shagging hundreds of BP balls) seeing a knuckler isn't a freak occurence.

[real green]

I have documented this in my piece on The Myth of Backspin in Hitting

Sorry Chris, not one of your better arguments! First off you can't tell from your TWO examples how much spin the ball has. Second even IF you found Two examples of knuckleball HR's proves nothing.

You would have to set up a control group of some sort, than create knuckleball contact compared to backspin contact with the same swing plain/pitch speed and determine exit speeds, flight patterns, and distance traveled.

Than you can conclude from your results what is optimal, and I would a bet a million dollars balls hit with back spin will be the outcome of your experiment.

Also it seems you argue that you need to swing down to create back spin which is also not true.

You have used that clip in the past. Is there a chance that the rotation and frame speed are in sink? Creating the illusion that the ball has no spin.

I do agree with you in regards to how little the batter has control of the outcome of spin. The difference between top spin back spin or knuckle is so minimal that I don't see a lot of value in spending teaching time on back spin.

While I admit, I don't work with elite athletes and could imagine some have such good eye hand cordination that they can make consistent contact on the bottom half of the ball.

[The Uncoach]

This line of reasoning only views one side of the coin. Think of a "down" swing path and a "down" pitch arc, both paths intersecting in a wide V shape where the bat and the ball only occupy the same space for a brief instant. (Anyone got the illustration from Ted William's Science of Hitting book handy?) Anyway, your side of the coin only considers when the bat arrives to the ball contact area slightly late. In other words, the ball has begun to drop out of the "perfect contact zone" so the bat hits the ball above it's center of gravity. The flip side of the coin is that just as many downward swing paths can produce back spin and pop-ups if the bat arrives slightly early. In this scenario, the bat passes through the contact zone prior to the ball's arrival, then the bottom portion of the ball (below the center of gravity) strikes the top half of the bat. Voila, backspin!

That works with the idea that the bat is parallel to the ground. How can a ball possibly hit the "top part of the bat" on a pitch that is down and in?

[bbrages]

While I admit, I don't work with elite athletes and could imagine some have such good eye hand cordination that they can make consistent contact on the bottom half of the ball.

If an athlete was that precise and skillful, he would certainly never swing and miss, right?