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Thread: Trout and Harper Baseball Swings

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by dominik View Post
    I think it's something in between. people now always talk about uppercutting and getting the barrell below the ball ("on plane") early. this is true but the uppercut is not as severe as people think. just because video has shown that pros do uppercut somewhat some people think the more uppercut the better.

    the barrell path while certainly not linear or straight down is still RELATIVELY direct and short. rotational hitting and circular hand path (the thing mankin promoted so aggressively compared to the old "hands move on straight line") does not mean wide, sweeping arcs and huge uppercuts. it still has to be tight and relatively direct.
    I think what you are saying is barrel direct to ball but it will get on plane with ball path just before contact. If this is what you are saying then I kinda of agree with you. I am not a big fan of the terms linear and rotational. I think a good swing has both. IMHO

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by dominik View Post
    Of course Harper has a very good swing or he wouldn't be that good even with his kind of natural power.

    but if that heavy bat does alter his swing, doesn't that mean that kind of training is kinda pointless? swinging a heavy bat sounds great (williams advocated that too) but if it even alters harpers swing it might not be the best idea.
    No. It doesn't mean it's pointless. It could very well be that without that kind of training he would not start slower and earlier. Or he could simply be building up muscle. Yes, one has to be careful that doing something like that a lot could alter a swing in a non-constructive way, but we don't know how often, how much or why he was doing this. That's why observing practice swings and commenting on them makes very little sense.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standballdad View Post
    I think a good swing has both. IMHO
    Keep studying. They are mutually exclusive terms.

    Linear has nothing to do with striding/not striding.

    You either throw your hands, or you keep them back. You either slot your elbow to contact, or you throw your arms out like a maniac. That's it.
    eFastball.com hitting and pitching fact checker

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standballdad View Post
    Watch his hands, very direct and down to the ball

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WnHX...eature=related
    Quote Originally Posted by Standballdad View Post
    Here is video of Harper, around 15 seconds into his swing it appears he loads up with the hands and takes a direct path to the ball. No film on Trout, just what I saw last night. Harpers does not seem as downward as Trouts after looking at this video.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dm7EG...eature=related
    Stop looking at their hands and look at their barrels (paths) instead.....
    In memory of "Catchingcoach" - Dave Weaver: February 28, 1955 - June 17, 2011

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by mudvnine View Post
    Stop looking at their hands and look at their barrels (paths) instead.....
    Yes barrel path, I corrected myself a couple of times.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by songtitle View Post
    Keep studying. They are mutually exclusive terms.

    Linear has nothing to do with striding/not striding.

    You either throw your hands, or you keep them back. You either slot your elbow to contact, or you throw your arms out like a maniac. That's it.
    You lost me

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standballdad View Post
    Yes barrel path, I corrected myself a couple of times.
    Well then.....no, their barrel paths are not, "down and through".

    Their barrel path are both "behind and through".....

    CCabrera.gif

    .....like basically every other decent MLB hitter.

    Don't know what else you expect them to do for "getting on plane early turning the barrel etc".....their barrels are doing basically the same thing(s) as Cabrera's above, with a slightly different handset.
    Last edited by mudvnine; 05-04-2012 at 11:19 PM. Reason: Grammar.....
    In memory of "Catchingcoach" - Dave Weaver: February 28, 1955 - June 17, 2011

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by mudvnine View Post
    Well then.....no, their barrel path is not, "down and through".

    Their barrel path are both "behind and through".....

    CCabrera.gif

    .....like basically every other decent MLB hitter.

    Don't know what you else you expect them to do for "getting on plane early turning the barrel etc".....their barrels are doing basically the same thing(s) as Cabrera's above, but maybe from a different handset.
    I wish I had a good clip of Trouts swing. What I thought I saw was not what your clip shows.

  9. #59
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    So use the Pujols still in this thread, and describe to us how the pink and yellow dots of the barrell traced on Trout's swing would be postioned differently as compared to Pujols ... representing Trout's more direct barrel path you witnessed.
    We can edit the still to represent what you saw, label that picture Trout's more direct barrel path (as compared to Pujols), and when we get an acceptable video, we can trace it to see if video supports your eye.

  10. #60
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    Granted, Mike might not load his hands as "rearward" as Cabrera or some other MLB hitters....or has yet to get as good as "stretch/separation" as the more experienced (refined) professional hitters, and is currently relying a lot in his athleticism, but his barrel still turns from "behind" and swings "through" the ball, more than it goes "down and through".
    In memory of "Catchingcoach" - Dave Weaver: February 28, 1955 - June 17, 2011

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by trschnell View Post
    So use the Pujols still in this thread, and describe to us how the pink and yellow dots of the barrell traced on Trout's swing would be postioned differently as compared to Pujols ... representing Trout's more direct barrel path you witnessed.
    We can edit the still to represent what you saw, label that picture Trout's more direct barrel path (as compared to Pujols), and when we get an acceptable video, we can trace it to see if video supports your eye.
    Okay, that would be helpful.

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by mudvnine View Post
    Granted, Mike might not load his hands as "rearward" as Cabrera or some other MLB hitters....or has yet to get as good as "stretch/separation" as the more experienced (refined) professional hitters, and is currently relying a lot in his athleticism, but his barrel still turns from "behind" and swings "through" the ball, more than it goes "down and through".
    I don't see it getting on plane early like Cabreras.

  13. #63
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    Here's Harper at a reasonable 30 fps video, with tons of useless blur due to slow shutter.

    Can you pick anything up on it that represents what you saw?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dgwi-AODnn8

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standballdad View Post
    I don't see it getting on plane early like Cabreras.
    Mud, what really caught my eye was that when Trout was in the on deck circle he was taking very exaggerated downward choppy swings. I know he is just warming up but it appeared to me that he was trying to reinforce an exaggerated movement. When I saw his game swing it was very short and the barrel was not on plane early.

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by trschnell View Post
    Here's Harper at a reasonable 30 fps video, with tons of useless blur due to slow shutter.

    Can you pick anything up on it that represents what you saw?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dgwi-AODnn8
    Yes, his barrel path does not get on plane early like Cabreras. It to me seems more direct to the ball (steeper). If you look at Cabreras barrel from the clip that Mud posted, it appears to come out of the catchers MIT. Harpers does not. Can you see that or is it just me?

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standballdad View Post
    Mud, what really caught my eye was that when Trout was in the on deck circle he was taking very exaggerated downward choppy swings. I know he is just warming up but it appeared to me that he was trying to reinforce an exaggerated movement. When I saw his game swing it was very short and the barrel was not on plane early.
    I'm not disagreeing that Mike's swing does look a little bit different, and that "shorter" might not be a bad description of it.....but if/when you look at strictly his barrel path in his BP and MiLB clip in this thread, I would hope that you're able to see that he is turning his barrel rearward, so that the barrel is coming to the ball from the catcher....and not from the above and "down through" the top of his shoulder.
    In memory of "Catchingcoach" - Dave Weaver: February 28, 1955 - June 17, 2011

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standballdad View Post
    Yes, his barrel path does not get on plane early like Cabreras. It to me seems more direct to the ball (steeper). If you look at Cabreras barrel from the clip that Mud posted, it appears to come out of the catchers MIT. Harpers does not. Can you see that or is it just me?
    OK, this makes more sense now to what you're seeing/describing.....

    What I think you're seeing and getting confused about is simply the vertical/horizontal relationship at which they orient their individual swing planes to the ball.

    Cabrera is "steeper", more vertical, while Harper and Trout are "flatter", and more horizontal....but all three are turning and bringing the barrel from "behind and through" vs. "down and though".

    At least IMO,
    mud -
    Last edited by mudvnine; 05-05-2012 at 12:15 AM. Reason: spelling/grammar.....
    In memory of "Catchingcoach" - Dave Weaver: February 28, 1955 - June 17, 2011

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by mudvnine View Post
    OK, this makes more sense now to what you're seeing/describing.....

    What I think you're seeing and getting confused about is simply the vertical/horizontal relationship at with they orient their individual planes to the ball.

    Cabrera is "steeper", more vertical, while Harper and Trout are "flatter", and more horizontal....but all three are turning and bringing the barrel from "behind and through" vs. "down and though".

    At least IMO,
    mud -
    Maybe down and through is not the correct term (still learning), but too me Trout and Harper do not get on plane as early as Cabrera. I am guessing all swings have the barrel turning and and coming from behind to some degree. I was under the impression that the higher level swings like Cabreras are on plane a lot sooner. BTW this is a constructive discussion which I do appreciate.

  19. #69
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    Great discussion guys. Harper is below the major league average when it comes to how early he gets the bat on plane. That's because he is closer to the instruction he has received as a minor leaguer...the swing down, short to the ball approach that is taught. To be successful at the big league level, and to especially hit the low ball, my opinion is that his swing will adapt slightly or he wont stay there. He can hit though, even though he doesnt get on plane that early beause his late bat speed "connection" is above major league average. Look at his rear elbow position into contact. Notice how it is in close and notice the powerful hinge he creates with his hands as he takes the barrel around that hinge through and after contact. That is how you get tremendous late bat speed and power. You have to search long and hard to see better energy through contact in any MLB example. Its exceptional.

    SC

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swing Coach View Post
    Great discussion guys. Harper is below the major league average when it comes to how early he gets the bat on plane. That's because he is closer to the instruction he has received as a minor leaguer...the swing down, short to the ball approach that is taught. To be successful at the big league level, and to especially hit the low ball, my opinion is that his swing will adapt slightly or he wont stay there. He can hit though, even though he doesnt get on plane that early beause his late bat speed "connection" is above major league average. Look at his rear elbow position into contact. Notice how it is in close and notice the powerful hinge he creates with his hands as he takes the barrel around that hinge through and after contact. That is how you get tremendous late bat speed and power. You have to search long and hard to see better energy through contact in any MLB example. Its exceptional.

    SC
    SW, why do they teach something different in the minors?

  21. #71
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    They teach swing down often in the minors because the coaches teach how they were taught. Before high speed video, hardly anybody knew how to describe high level swing mechanics. The assumption was the quicker the hands go to the ball = a quicker swing. Ted williams is the exception. He had it figured out a long time ago. I watch how the swing down approach is taught to the class A team in my town. And I am friends with a major leaguer who told me how they taught him to swing down all through the minor leagues....to his detriment. I really think the crux of the problem is the difficulty teaching the initiation of the swing. The hands and knob do initiate down and forward...just not at the exclusion of the barrel turning rearward and the bat getting on plane early. That combination is what the best MLBers have. Too often, though, only the knob down is taught and not the barrel turn.

    SC

  22. #72
    I tell my kids (meaning just my own) to swing down on it. I mean it's a drill we do but I want that barrel arcing downward ASAP. In such a way that the arms do not want to move forward towards the pitcher. The idea is feel the hands doing the work. Go watch any HS game or really any level lower and how many kids that swing via the arms swing right over the top of a ball at their knees (as their arms are moving forward). I want them to get behind the ball ASAP which means if you are going to barrel up a lower ball (strike or close) the barrel tip must a couple inches lower than the ball.

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swing Coach View Post
    Too often, though, only the knob down is taught and not the barrel turn.

    SC
    How does one teach "barrel turn?"

  24. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by pthawaii View Post
    How does one teach "barrel turn?"
    "BoardMember" has made some good posts on this.
    I think this clip is by him:


    the player is getting his elbow slotted and the hands flat already behind him to get the barrel behind the ball. I think he called that "carve" or something. first back and down, than threough from behind.

    the discussion is really interesting. I do think that the barrell must come from behind the ball (and actually slightly below so that you can match the plane. but I think too early is not good either. the old cue of keeping the barrell up above the hands have some merit as a lot of kids will just flatten the hands without rotating forward. this will be barrell dumping and cause the "loop".

    In a good swing the hands must start forward at the same time they get flat and the elbow getting slotted. See Agone here. his hips have already opened but his barrell is still relatively far back. you cannot start that flattening before hip rotation starts which many kids are doing and so just dumping the barrell. so keeping up the barrell initially and not getting down too early is not a bad thing.
    Last edited by dominik; 05-06-2012 at 02:37 AM.
    I think walks are overrated unless you can run. If you get a walk and put the pitcher in a stretch, that helps, but the guy who walks and cant run, most of the time hes clogging up the bases for somebody who can run. Dusty Baker.

  25. #75
    Dominik what is the difference between these two swings particularly regarding what the hands are doing? Is Adrian Carving? Seems like Macias has a good carve/filet yet he struggled mightily as he moved up.


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