Defending Aggressive Base Running

[The Flush]

The team we faced yesterday in our 10U rec league was very aggressive on the base paths. Every time the ball is in play their runners are instructed to try run halfway to the next base to get in a pickle in order to advance the lead runner. This happened even with the pitcher with the ball on the rubber at least once. I know the only way to stop this tactic is to actually throw them out a few times, which we did twice, but I think it was because they got careless more than anything. We fell for it at least once as well and gave up a run. What is the best way to defend this without letting the trailing runner advance? All of the infielders are usually reliable, but we hate to risk throwing the ball around.

[real green]

No one else on base, if pitcher has ball flat out sprint at runner cheating a little towards lead base. Always amazed how many runners freeze for simple tag in this scenario.

Runner on third depends on game situation. Depending on the score, you have three options.

1. Concede second base
2. Fake for the out at second and catch the guy at third being to aggressive
3. Concede the run and get the out

[The Flush]

I am trying to come up with ways to not concede either base. I want both runners to retreat to their base for at least the next pitch. I guess we just have to have the arm strength and accuracy and good gloves to be able throw runners out from anywhere in the infield.

The team we played Saturday got us once when they kept the runners off the bases a little even as the pitcher took the ball to and stood on the rubber. They then sent the runner from first, which spooked our pitcher, who threw to second, where we would have had the runner out easily, but the runner from 3rd went home so the 2B threw home, made a bad throw, the runner scored and the other runner moved to 3rd. It worked perfectly for them. We only fell for this once, but it was very frustrating when it happened. If we had the pitcher walk a runner back to the base, the other one would get a large lead off base. As the pitcher moved back to the rubber, both runners would move off the base. I just want a way to force both runners back. We were able to get a runner once because our pitcher (the one from my Help our Pitcher thread) is very ballsy and made a great, quick, illadvised throw to 1st after checking the runner back to 3rd and the 1B made a good play to tag out the runner. Frequently those sudden, hard throws spook the fielder enough to make them drop the ball.

[scorekeeper]

The team we faced yesterday in our 10U rec league was very aggressive on the base paths. Every time the ball is in play their runners are instructed to try run halfway to the next base to get in a pickle in order to advance the lead runner. This happened even with the pitcher with the ball on the rubber at least once. I know the only way to stop this tactic is to actually throw them out a few times, which we did twice, but I think it was because they got careless more than anything. We fell for it at least once as well and gave up a run. What is the best way to defend this without letting the trailing runner advance? All of the infielders are usually reliable, but we hate to risk throwing the ball around.

I don’t mean to make light of you question which is a good one, but the easiest way to defend against aggressive base running, is to cut down on the runners reaching base. There’s absolutely nothing you can do about hits because they’re gonna happen no matter what ya do. But, you can do something about runners who ROE or reach on walks or get HBP. If you cut down on just 1 walk or HBP and 1 ROE per game, that’s 2 runners who never get the chance to advance.

As for how kids that age in a rec league would defend against aggressive base running, they really can’t. Its because it’s a lot easier for one kid to run 60’ in a straight line, than it is for a pitcher to make a good pitch the catcher can handle easily, the catcher to catch the ball then execute all the muscle movements correctly to transfer the ball and make a good throw to a base, then have the fielder receiving the throw get into proper position to catch it, catch it, then apply a tag without losing control of the ball.

Until the distance between bases get longer and the players get more skilled, you can only keep trying to teach the fielders the skills they need to execute correctly in order to catch runners.

[The Flush]

I don't mind steals (our league requires the ball the reach the plate before running). It's the stuff that happens as the play is ALMOST over.

[TexAg]

our 9/10u rec league has the pitching mound as "home base." basically, once the pitcher is on the mound with the ball, the baserunners can no longer advance.

[CircleChange11]

You could always have the 1B trail the runner. If the throw goes to 1B then they can apply a quick tag or at least have a very short distance rundown.

You could also have the RF sprint in and shadow the runner. I like this one because the RF is moving "toward the plate" so if the jagbag runner takes off for home, the RF's momentum is heading toward home.

A combination of the two involving a "fake overthrow to 1B" or a literal overthrow of the 1B but directly to the RF could be interesting ... but even then on 60-foot bases it requires too much given the average player's defensive prowess.

It's just stupid, because now you have to plan and prepare for something you'll never see at higher levels, and the other team excels at something that will not transfer.

The bothersome aspect to me is that is not really a skill that other players don;t have, but a style that many coaches are not willing to utilize because of its exploitative nature. But some coaches cave in so they can "fight fire with fire."

I really don't get it. It's simply an exploit of the basepath distances and size of the kids. People certainly do talk up the quality of travel baseball but when we play in no leadoff games, it's amazing how low the scores are. It's almost as if kids rely on passed balls for runs instead of learning how to hit line drive and balls out of the infield. Hmm, yes very interesting. Maybe it's easier to teach baserunning exploits than great hitting mechanics. Yes, maybe. Oh, CircleChange11, shut up. Just be sure to label your kid "elite" or "select" and get with the program.

The defenses have been very good, I will say. That's refreshing.

I don’t mean to make light of you question which is a good one, but the easiest way to defend against aggressive base running, is to cut down on the runners reaching base.

Yeah,like the dad in crowd yells "Throw strikes". Who knew?

[The Flush]

From what I have heard, our league "all-star" team faced a lot of this type of base running in tournaments last year, so now some of the coaches whose kids were on that team are using the technique to win in rec league as well as being prepared to "fight fire with fire" once the all-star season rolls around.

I was thinking of having the SS cover 3B and have the 3B go half way between 3rd and home (or trail the runner), fake the throw to 2nd or 1st to freeze that runner and then throw to the 3B halfway home for a tag.

I thought of having the outfielders cover bases, but at that point, we might as well concede 2nd.

[Roothog66]

Basically, you have the middle infielder take the throw not in a situation for a rundown, but have him run right to R1. He can then take the throw in a position that allows for both a tag and a chance at the lead runner. Outfielders covering shouldn't be an option at 10u. They should be fairly deep. I understand this is rec and you might not have the talent to properly cover it, at which point you might simply concede the trailing runner, hold the lead runner, and chalk it up to a simple stolen base which was probably coming next anyway at 10u rec.

[CircleChange11]

From what I have heard, our league "all-star" team faced a lot of this type of base running in tournaments last year, so now some of the coaches whose kids were on that team are using the technique to win in rec league as well as being prepared to "fight fire with fire" once the all-star season rolls around.

I was thinking of having the SS cover 3B and have the 3B go half way between 3rd and home (or trail the runner), fake the throw to 2nd or 1st to freeze that runner and then throw to the 3B halfway home for a tag.

I thought of having the outfielders cover bases, but at that point, we might as well concede 2nd.

Real baseball.

What you describe is accurate. One team does it and everyone pretty much has to do the same exploit in order to compete. The other option is to be multiple-times more talented than the opposition, but that's not likely.

Some of the guys have figured out in rec league you can just run without stopping. If the throw gets to the bag ahead of you just stop and retreat because it's easier to get out of the pickle than to get someone out.

I can see where coaches think this makes them look very smart, because it does make the opposition look stupid. But it's also complete jagoff baseball.

I'm not seeing much player development going on. I'm seeing very few kids that can hit well, but a lot of kids that can run the bases like idiots.

[Roothog66]

If this is the strategy in your league, it's probably worth spending a considerable amount of practice time working on the rundown. I know we did so as 8yos where this was somewhat prevelant and once a team knew you execute the rundown, they stopped pulling that crap. Often in rec or at younger ages, it's not worth giving up the out for one run. Show that you can properly make a "pickle" situation an automatic out once or twice and they simply stop doing it.

[The Flush]

Our team has so far resisted the temptation to play like this. If anything, we are too conservative. I am usually first base coach and I need to send runners without a passed ball with a runner on 3rd more often. For whatever reason, I usually wait until the catcher at least drops it before sending them. This is usually with the kids who don't understand the game well yet. We almost always get the runner to 2nd anyway. I do really appreciate the kids who have figured it out and take off on their own sometimes. That saves precious time and almost completely elimitates the chance of getting caught (at this age). At least we beat the team that tried those tactics the first time and we are undefeated, but we have to play them again Thursday.

[Saints1]

This may be of some help if your catcher is quick/athletic with a good arm. If both runners go halfway have catcher run at the lead runner and make him commit. You may then have an opportunity to throw him out or at least have retreat back to the original base depending on the scenario of outs and bases runners are on.

[CircleChange11]

Show that you can properly make a "pickle" situation an automatic out once or twice and they simply stop doing it.

Is this without allowing the run or conceding the run to get the runner out?

Isn't the offense trying to get the defense to make a play on them? In other words, they're trying to score the run and/or take the base without having the defense throw a pitch?

Even if you get the guy on 1st out, the runner is going to score, right?

Isn't that the whole point of the baserunning exploit at this age level? That even the teams that practice it can't stop the play without the runner from third scoring? (at least consistently)

[AdamInNY]

I see this as well, and unfortunately am guilty of the "fight fire with fire" mentality. Trying to get over it though . In the 9U tournaments we play in there usually isn't leading, but there is stealing. The most common play I see is 1st and 3rd less than 2 outs. Runner steals 2nd on 1st pitch. We either ignore it, or have the SS coming in and catcher throws to SS who throws home. It's our all-star team that plays in these tournaments. They come back and play in the rec league during the spring and they are like caffeinated hyaenas on the base path. I've seen them ignore the base coaches and do their own thing. I've benched kids on my team for this.

Worst I've seen was in a local tournament where they call balks after giving one warning (this is 9U). I saw a coach tell one of his kids to just get out of his stance as the pitcher winds up. Most of the pitchers are confused and stop pitching and the ump issues a warning, and the next time it's a balk. Horrible, doesn't teach anything.

[real green]

If this is the strategy in your league, it's probably worth spending a considerable amount of practice time working on the rundown. I know we did so as 8yos where this was somewhat prevelant and once a team knew you execute the rundown, they stopped pulling that crap. Often in rec or at younger ages, it's not worth giving up the out for one run. Show that you can properly make a "pickle" situation an automatic out once or twice and they simply stop doing it.

Yep! As soon as they know you have a plan and execute, it all stops. Most times I will give up the run for the free out. Which would you prefer, 1st and 3rd no outs or one out for one run and empty bases. Offensively I prefer 1st and 3rd no outs. Defensively I want the out and empty bases. Obviously towards the end of a tight game I am running a fake play on R1 hoping to catch R3 commiting to soon.

[Roothog66]

Is this without allowing the run or conceding the run to get the runner out?

Isn't the offense trying to get the defense to make a play on them? In other words, they're trying to score the run and/or take the base without having the defense throw a pitch?

Even if you get the guy on 1st out, the runner is going to score, right?

Isn't that the whole point of the baserunning exploit at this age level? That even the teams that practice it can't stop the play without the runner from third scoring? (at least consistently)

IN the first instance, the scoring is so ridiculous in rec that giving up an out to score a run (unless it's a tie or very close game in the last inning) is stupid baseball. They use this tactic becuase they plan to score the runa nd have determined they are still quite likely to get the trailing runner out of the pickle, too. So, if they want to trade an out for a run from a runner that was in scoring position anyway, let them.

The second option is just to protect the lead runner (I assume normally on third base) and give up second to the trailing runner and don't sweat it. He was probably just going to end up there with a passed ball or sb anyway at this level, right? Bottom line is don't play their game. Give up second and laugh it off.

[real green]

While it's not as common, it does happen at high levels.

A recent AAA game, R2 considers scoring on a hit to the 7-8 gap. OF makes a great throw to the cut off and the runner stops after rounding third. Batter tries to advance to second and cut off man fires to second base. Batter gets in a pickle between 1st and 2nd and runner on third heads home. Infielder shuts down pickle to make a throw to the plate. Throws slightly off and runner scores batter advances to 2nd.

[scorekeeper]

While it's not as common, it does happen at high levels.

A recent AAA game, R2 considers scoring on a hit to the 7-8 gap. OF makes a great throw to the cut off and the runner stops after rounding third. Batter tries to advance to second and cut off man fires to second base. Batter gets in a pickle between 1st and 2nd and runner on third heads home. Infielder shuts down pickle to make a throw to the plate. Throws slightly off and runner scores batter advances to 2nd.

It happens in HS all the time! Our team loves to pull the 1st and 3rd, R1 takes off and stops play. It ends up different ways, but more often than not a run ends up scoring, and its for the same reason it works at lower levels. It’s a very complex play that 5 fielders have to have perfectly coordinated, and that takes a lot of experience to get right. Of course at our level all of the players have higher skill levels, and that’s why it doesn’t work as often as it does at levels lower. But it does work. It’s sometime tried in college, but it works even less there, and its very seldom tried above that, and when it is, it’s a very special situation.

[tg643]

First I'll state I dislike coaches who teach bs baseball to gain advantage at a level of play that will not help any players at the next level. I detest the runners who distract from the game with their dancing on the base paths.

When there's only the hitter getting a single and taking a big turn: Just run him back to first. Then flip the ball back to the pitcher and have him get ready to pitch. If you don't have leads he will be called out for being off the bases when the pitcher delivers the next pitch. If there are leads let him get too far off the base then run at him. Run him back to the base with one throw do get him out. DO NOT get caught up with rundowns with lots of throws. It takes one throw if a rundown is done properly.

If there is a second runner on base: You have to teach your players to communicate. The player with the b all can't see both runners at the same time. While the player with the ball has to focus on running the hitter back to first, his teammates have to yell when the other runner breaks. Don't yell until he's in no man's land. Then, turn, plant and fire to the next base. If the runner tries to play monkey in the middle run him back to the preceding base.

This is all bs. None of it will develop players for the next level. I loved coaching against coaches who taught this stuff by 13U. By 13U it's all they have and people notice they are baseball ignorant.

[real green]

It happens in HS all the time! Our team loves to pull the 1st and 3rd, R1 takes off and stops play. It ends up different ways, but more often than not a run ends up scoring, and its for the same reason it works at lower levels. It’s a very complex play that 5 fielders have to have perfectly coordinated, and that takes a lot of experience to get right. Of course at our level all of the players have higher skill levels, and that’s why it doesn’t work as often as it does at levels lower. But it does work. It’s sometime tried in college, but it works even less there, and its very seldom tried above that, and when it is, it’s a very special situation.

We were coached in HS as a trailing runner with less than 2 outs to push for an extra base and if your beat get into a pickle hoping the lead runner would get an extra base. It's fun to play and it's fun to watch.

Not real baseball. You guys and your real baseball. Like everyone else is playing fake baseball. Exploiting a teams weakness is a part of every sport. Now exploiting that weakness into a slaughter is a no no. When you're playing within the rules to gain an advantage than I don't see anything wrong with it.

There is extremes at every level and it's all based on prespective.

We have a coach in our league 10-12yr olds that gets upset if you steal second at will because he has a weak catcher. His whole point is you would never take that risk under "normal baseball" circumstances. My point to him is if you want to defend against the steal move your hotshot ss behind the plate and we wont steal at will. We make defensive position choices all the time based on what talent we have available and what we want to defend against. If an offense finds a hole we make adjustments.

Should the 12yr old pitchers back off on the bottom half of the 10yr old line up to give them a shot at putting it in play?

[real green]

First I'll state I dislike coaches who teach bs baseball to gain advantage at a level of play that will not help any players at the next level. I detest the runners who distract from the game with their dancing on the base paths.

This is all bs. None of it will develop players for the next level. I loved coaching against coaches who taught this stuff by 13U. By 13U it's all they have and people notice they are baseball ignorant.

You always talk about the next level like everything we do today is for tomorrow. When in reality at every jump in level you lose 60-70% of the players. Taking kids and winning TOC will be the biggest sporting championship many/most kids will ever experience. It does mean something to the bottom half of your lineup that may never play any sport above rec. They may never be involved in any other sport this structured that allows a championship based on the last 4 months of play.

Real baseball, never see it above 13u, ignorant coaching, bla bla bla. This mentality comes off as egotistic and arrogant to us lesser thans! Many times it comes after getting beat by a team you feel is inferrior. You can't say they cheated because they played with in the rules. So they result to they are not playing real baseball.

I am not a Fan of a kid being a monkey between bases but a trailing runner making the defense make a choice is not a problem in my book.

[Roothog66]

You always talk about the next level like everything we do today is for tomorrow. When in reality at every jump in level you lose 60-70% of the players. Taking kids and winning TOC will be the biggest sporting championship many/most kids will ever experience. It does mean something to the bottom half of your lineup that may never play any sport above rec. They may never be involved in any other sport this structured that allows a championship based on the last 4 months of play.

Real baseball, never see it above 13u, ignorant coaching, bla bla bla. This mentality comes off as egotistic and arrogant to us lesser thans! Many times it comes after getting beat by a team you feel is inferrior. You can't say they cheated because they played with in the rules. So they result to they are not playing real baseball.

I am not a Fan of a kid being a monkey between bases but a trailing runner making the defense make a choice is not a problem in my book.

True dat. TG seems to think all we're doing down here with our little 12 and 13 yo's is training them for the major leagues. If by "higher level" he means HS, this kind of stuff still happens there all the time. As far as it not teaching them anything useable at the next level, I think it certainly teaches defenses a few things, which is why you don't see it as much as you move up.

[tg643]

You always talk about the next level like everything we do today is for tomorrow. When in reality at every jump in level you lose 60-70% of the players. Taking kids and winning TOC will be the biggest sporting championship many/most kids will ever experience. It does mean something to the bottom half of your lineup that may never play any sport above rec. They may never be involved in any other sport this structured that allows a championship based on the last 4 months of play.

Real baseball, never see it above 13u, ignorant coaching, bla bla bla. This mentality comes off as egotistic and arrogant to us lesser thans! Many times it comes after getting beat by a team you feel is inferrior. You can't say they cheated because they played with in the rules. So they result to they are not playing real baseball.

I am not a Fan of a kid being a monkey between bases but a trailing runner making the defense make a choice is not a problem in my book.

Because I played through college baseball and returned to coach from kiddie ball rec through college prospect showcase ball I have a healthy respect for the game. I believe in teaching the game properly. I have little respect for the know nothings who try to reinvent the game with gimmicks that don't teach the kids how to play ball. These gimmicks aren't worth a minutes worth of practice when balanced against teaching the game properly.

The next level is whatever is the next age grouping. When dealing with 9/10's the next level is 11/12's. At each level the players should be taught as much as they can grasp. Each year they choose to play should be cummulative learning on the proper way to play the game. The coaches who teach the crap get exposed at 13U. It's when gimmicks get a team embarassed due to the increased level of competition. In the LL our family came from, purposely getting in rundowns would create nothing but an out most of the time in 11/12's.

[real green]

Because I played through college baseball and returned to coach from kiddie ball rec through college prospect showcase ball I have a healthy respect for the game. I believe in teaching the game properly. I have little respect for the know nothings who try to reinvent the game with gimmicks that don't teach the kids how to play ball. These gimmicks aren't worth a minutes worth of practice when balanced against teaching the game properly.

The next level is whatever is the next age grouping. When dealing with 9/10's the next level is 11/12's. At each level the players should be taught as much as they can grasp. Each year they choose to play should be cummulative learning on the proper way to play the game. The coaches who teach the crap get exposed at 13U. It's when gimmicks get a team embarassed due to the increased level of competition. In the LL our family came from, purposely getting in rundowns would create nothing but an out most of the time in 11/12's.

I have respect for the game as well and believe in teaching the game properly. The definition of properly is an opinion.

Is it a gimmick for the trailing runner to take an extra bag while the defense is trying to keep the lead runner from scoring? Making the defense make a play. I have seen it so many times at every level. Why is this a bastardization of the game?