Registered User
Registered Dad
I'm 5'10" 195 pounds. I eat granola bars and I've watched Chapman pitch 100+ mph. My long toss is 40 to 50 feet. I can squat. I can swim in the hot tub, box up presents, and prospect for fantasy football players.
I'm still waiting for my call from SI.
(I am curious what the Royals look for in a prospect... other than cheap and no desire to play even .500 baseball at the major league level.)
Registered User
1. Felix Hernandez is a max long toss guy.
2. The Royals had what is regarded as the best minor league system in modern history 2 years ago. Some guys graduated to the pros, some suffered injuries. The Royals look for what everyone else looks for in a prospect.
Baseball Voodoo
How far did Bob Feller long toss?
The sad part is... kids will read this stuff and waste time on it. More voodoo.Dylan just took over. He took over the whole conversation, talking about specific muscle groups, why he does what he does. Before the session was over, he was teaching them about how the shoulder really works. They were in awe.
Last edited by songtitle; 05-08-2012 at 07:25 AM.
Registered User
Hey! Hey! Hey! That's a cheapshot! As a long-suffering Royals fan, I'm quite proud of our ability to develop excellent ballplayers that we then pass on to real ML teams when they're ready for a Big Boy paycheck.Originally Posted by JCincy
Registered User
song,
If you mean by voodoo that there are no scientific studies proving long toss works, then you're right. Thank the doctors again for not even doing a study on the value or lack thereof for long toss programs.
On the flip side, I've seen Jaeger in person working with kids, and the improvement is amazing. It isn't voodoo. It's really nothing but hard work, lots and lots and lots of throwing, something I am sure Feller did as a kid, which most kids of that day did. They played a lot of pick up ball, where they would throw and throw until they got tired and then went home. Heck, as Cy Young said
"All us Youngs could throw. I used to kill squirrels with a stone when I was a kid, and my granddad once killed a turkey buzzard on the fly with a rock."
What kids throw rocks today? If a kid did what Young or his granddad did they would probably get arrested. Instead of throwing rocks, it's now called long toss. Most kids today pitch too much but throw too little. Long toss is a means to throw a lot. Would it be better to do it the Feller/Young way? Possibly. But for whatever reason pick up ball is no longer a part of the baseball landscape, so in its place are more regimented activities like long toss.
Lastly, if you're going to take that strong a position that it's useless voodoo, then you should really find a way to go to beautiful southern California on vacation and watch Jaeger out at Pierce College with his guys. It's totally eye opening, watching 16 year olds doing long toss from foul pole to foul pole, frequently for almost an hour, often skinny little guys with cannons for arms. Sorry, hard work is never going to be "voodoo" in my book, never, and that's what the Jaeger's long toss program is, hard work. I highly recommend it all young players looking to improve their arms. It's not for everyone (few people like to throw for 2 hours a day every day as Jaeger recommends) but there is no doubt in my mind it really improves the arm strength and arm health of young players.
-JJA
Baseball Voodoo
JJA, that's great and I'm sure its fun, but I know many kids that don't do long toss, and they experience the same velocity results on an actual pitching mound.
I haven't seen one, but has Jaeger produced a list of velocity improvements on the mound?
Also, for the few HS teams that I watch closely, the outfielders throw longer in long toss than the pitchers.
I'm sure long toss is great for outfielders, but I'm going with voodoo for pitchers.
Last edited by songtitle; 05-09-2012 at 08:28 AM.
eFastball.com hitting and pitching fact checker
Registered User
That's interesting, your kids are experiencing "the same velocity results on an actual pitching mound", yet JJA never stated any stats for comparison.
Well you must have found something....because you have players that are "experiencing "the same velocity results".....I haven't seen one, but has Jaeger produced a list of velocity improvements on the mound?
Unless they use it for what JJA stated it was good for....."arm strength and "arm health of young players".I'm sure long toss is great for outfielders, but I'm going with voodoo for pitchers.
That is unless you disagree that "more throwing" doesn't naturally improve "arm strength and arm health of young players" as common sense would say, and many believe.....in which case, I believe the onerous falls on you to prove such a claim.
In memory of "Catchingcoach" - Dave Weaver: February 28, 1955 - June 17, 2011
Baseball Voodoo
People throw 90 with long toss. People throw 90 without long toss. I'm sure you knew what I mean, though. You're a smart guy.
I'm guessing that 99.99999% of Dads reading this would take 'arm strength' to mean velocity improvement.Unless they use it for what JJA stated it was good for....."arm strength
Does it hurt if an onerous falls on me?I believe the onerous falls on you
Last edited by songtitle; 05-09-2012 at 08:59 AM.
eFastball.com hitting and pitching fact checker
Registered User
song,
That's the great thing about America. We're all entitled to our opinions.
To answer your question, no, I don't think he has actually published that data on his web site. It's a good suggestion and I'll talk to him about it next time we chat. On the flip side, have you read the voluminous recommendations from both players and coaches about the program, from professional pitchers to third baseman to outfielders to pitching coaches, head coaches from high school through the pros? Those most definitely are on his web site.
Could be all these guys are wrong (including me) and it's all voodoo, but I'll argue that to take the position is it voodoo is equal voodoo. What evidence do you have that long toss doesn't work? A scientific study would hopefully settle the debate once and for all, but without hard data it's all speculation one way or the other. At least I have carefully studied the program in person, used it with many players and have seen significant improvements with it. That's why I recommend it to all young players trying to get better arm strength and better arm health. Short of pick up ball, it's the best program out there I know of.
-JJA
Baseball Voodoo
The first sign is that he only has testimonials, and no studies. Isn't this backwards?What evidence do you have that long toss doesn't work?
I've never seen a list of mound velocity before and after for any group of players. Yet, so many endorsements. It doesn't pass the smell test.
Also, 'doesnt work' for what? Every time I read about someone promoting long toss, they begin with words like 'velocity improvement' or 'increased arm strength', but when questioned they back down to 'improved conditioning'. I'm OK with improved conditioning, but when they make implied claims about getter faster, I'm pulling the voodoo card.
This is why I recommend that any dad get a radar gun and measure his son's progress, on an actual mound, against any and all techniques that people put out there.
Last edited by songtitle; 05-09-2012 at 09:16 AM.
eFastball.com hitting and pitching fact checker
Registered User
I too have seen the Jaeger program first hand....we had Jaeger instructor Jim Vatcher come out and take our players through an hour and a half "throwing program" which long toss was just a part of, and must say that it is quite an excellent program when used in its entirety.
Question to you.....
Why are you "sure long toss is great for outfielders, but I'm going with voodoo for pitchers"?
So what does it do for outfielders, that it doesn't do for pitchers?
In memory of "Catchingcoach" - Dave Weaver: February 28, 1955 - June 17, 2011
Baseball Voodoo
mud, long toss uses an outfielder's technique. So, if an OF is throwing longer in LT, then of course, they will throw longer/faster in a game. That's fantastic.
But, LT does not use the technique of a pitcher.
Look at your own team if they throw LT. A pitcher may get longer in LT, but get no faster on the mound. Outfielders will throw longer in LT, but the pitcher throws faster on the mound than the outfielders.
Pitchers only get faster on the mound, when they get bigger/taller, or when they change their pitching technique on the mound.
I'm sure we'll settle the long toss debate today.
Last edited by songtitle; 05-09-2012 at 09:35 AM.
eFastball.com hitting and pitching fact checker
Registered User
Song I know that you a fan of game speed, game distance.
I agree with you that throwing hard will strengthen the arm no matter if it is 300 feet or 30. given the same release velocity the force on the arm is the same.
however the advantage of long toss is that it is pushing the thrower. if you don't throw hard enough you won't throw 300. at 60 feet you can take a little off with no one noticing it. there are two kinds of kids:
1.kids that always give 110%. those kids are the really intense, competitive kids. they need to be paced or they might hurt themselves
2.the other kids (about 70% of all kids at least) are often a little half assed. if you don't push them they will often swing, run or throw only at 60% or so. they will do the drills a little lame. most kids are a little bit like that (I'm not talking about lazy kids here! those kids are showing up and doing the drills,just not with that "eye of the tiger).
often we see it here when dads post videos. the kids don't have a really bad swing but they don't swing with intent.
type 1 kids might not be helped by long toss and maybe even hurt if you don't monitor it. hard mound throwing will do just the same for their arm.
but for type 2 kids some reference of how hard they throw is not bad. they need something to push themselves and falling short of distance does that (a gun would do the same of course). just like you wrote in the batspeed thread: distance is a good and easy control for intensity and a good motivation too.
Your arm (or swing) only gets stronger if you throw (or swing) hard a lot. whether it is long distance or short doesn't matter.
so the answer is yes, LT does make you throw harder but it is no magic pill and doesn't work any better than other hard throwing.
I think walks are overrated unless you can run. If you get a walk and put the pitcher in a stretch, that helps, but the guy who walks and can’t run, most of the time he’s clogging up the bases for somebody who can run. – Dusty Baker.
Registered User
I suspect that even if Jaeger put stuff on his web site you wouldn't believe it either. I suspect you're like me in that you would like independent confirmation it works from someone not selling services. Makes perfect sense, except for the fact that there are no studies out there one way or the other.
Meanwhile, I've got players trying to get to the next level. What do I tell them, wait for the studies to come out before trying the program? Sorry, it's my responsibility as coach to try to do what I can to help the kids with their goals, and right now Jaeger's program is the best I've seen. If something comes up that is better I'm all over it, but I can't wait 10 years for some study to come out. I'm just trying to be practical out there. Cry voodoo all you want, but at least I'm trying to find something that works. You're just saying don't do anything but what you're doing. That's really not very helpful if a kid has a weak arm and trying to improve it.
Furthermore, I have seen improvements in using the program. In my particular case, I see improvement to the tune of about 5 mph regularly, 10 mph in very unusual cases. Like Dom said, it isn't a program that will take a guy throwing in the 60's to someone in the 90's. But 5 mph really does matter for fielders who are in the high seventies to instead being in the low eighties, or guys in the low eighties getting to the upper eighties. Take my experience for what it's worth, almost nothing as my sample sizes are so small compared to what a real study would do. But I've seen these improvements regularly, which really shouldn't surprise anyone. If you throw 2 hours a day, you would expect improvement. It sure seems non-controversial to me, but these boards often surprise me about the silly things we argue about.
-JJA
Registered User
Song, I thought you were a "fact checker"....your statements below are so wrong they're almost scary in their naivety.
This season, my top four longest "long tossers" are my pitchers, regardless of what positions they play when not on the mound.....and that is typical of all my teams of recent memory.
My "fastest pitcher on the mound" is my "smallest/shortest" pitcher of that group, so I'm not sure how you can equate size with velocity. Don't outfielders throw harder/farther when they get "bigger/taller" also?Pitchers only get faster on the mound, when they get bigger/taller, or when they change their pitching technique on the mound.
I agree that "pitching technique" will get a pitcher faster, and why I like to see them long toss, because when done/taught properly, its "throwing technique" frees up arm action, that does transfer over to pitching technique, when again....taught properly.
BTW, Jaeger's only "study" (which I agree is more anecdotal than scientific), is that a player who's able to long toss of 325' (don't quote me on that exact number), will be able to throw over 90 mph in the "pull down" phase of the long toss routine, when moved into the 60 feet mark; not that it will make him a better pitcher on the mound...that's his coach's job.
Some interesting coaches/doctors quotes:
Hmm, basically the same as JJA stated, and nothing about velocity.
Again, nothing about velocity, and everything about arm care.
Arm care....nothing on velocity.
"Arm strength", making the arm stronger to decrease injury....but again, nothing about velocity.
No need to settle anything, but to simply pop-off that long toss is a "waste of time" and "voodoo", without a shred of evidence that kids or their parents may read, and NOT take part in a "band and long toss" program to condition the arm before whipping out the radar gun, because they might believe some self-appointed "fact checker" is a bit disconcerting and troublesome....IMO.I'm sure we'll settle the long toss debate today.
You may want to spend a little more time checking your "facts", or at least learn and understand how to interpret them.
Last edited by mudvnine; 05-09-2012 at 10:37 AM.
In memory of "Catchingcoach" - Dave Weaver: February 28, 1955 - June 17, 2011
Baseball Voodoo
Just to be clear. You are talking strictly about outfielders, correct?
eFastball.com hitting and pitching fact checker
Baseball Voodoo
I know of several teams that long toss, and not a single pitcher is their longest tosser. Your team had different results. That's good to know. It would be good for other coaches to chime in with their experience.
I'm sorry that you are so easily scared.
Last edited by songtitle; 05-09-2012 at 10:40 AM.
eFastball.com hitting and pitching fact checker
Registered User
Scared of what....you? Not hardly....I know of several teams that long toss, and a pitcher is not their longest tosser. Your team had different results. It would be good for other coaches to chime in with their experience.
I'm sorry that you are so easily scared.
I just don't want the 99.999999% of the dads who you seem to feel fall into the same misinterpretation of "arm strength" category that you do, to not have their players benefit from an excellent program, simply because a guy who has no idea as to what it entails, nor understands its benefits, comes on here and calls it "voodoo".
"Arm strength" - the ability to make the arm stronger, to better withstand the rigors placed upon it when throwing....whether that means from the outfield, infield, behind the plate, or on the mound.
At least learn what's being taught, before you make unsubstantiated claims of which you can't support.
In memory of "Catchingcoach" - Dave Weaver: February 28, 1955 - June 17, 2011
Baseball Voodoo
So, when you are questioned about a program that you promote, you are reduced to calling the other person ignorant? You're too smart for that. I don't think anyone here believes that I don't know anything about long-toss.
You're not fooling anyone with that. Everyone knows what it means, and what's implied."Arm strength" - the ability to make the arm stronger, to better withstand the rigors placed upon it when throwing....whether that means from the outfield, infield, behind the plate, or on the mound.
Now, if we can get back to facts, that would be great.
Last edited by songtitle; 05-09-2012 at 10:54 AM.
eFastball.com hitting and pitching fact checker
Registered User
Absolutely not. I see it in pitchers as well. But let's apply some common sense. Usually because they throw the most, the arms of pitchers are usually in the best shape. Hence they usually benefit less from a velocity viewpoint than fielders who don't throw as much. But this isn't always the case. Jaeger will tell you that Zumaya went from 89 mph when he arrived to 100 mph two years later. Now this in my experience is highly unusual, but it does happen. Is it because Zumaya simply matured or was it do to long toss or a combination? Who knows, which again is why studies sure would be helpful. But as has been repeatedly stressed, throwing regularly for arm conditioning and health is really a big reason for the program.
Again, if you haven't seen the program, you can't understand the level of work the man demands. That's my biggest problem, getting kids to do it regulalry. Who but the most dedicated guy wants to throw two hours a day, long tossing at maximum distance for often an hour? That's hard work, something few kids will do. But those who do it often get rewarded with increased velocity, and very definitely an arm that rarely gets sore. The program is called "Thrive on Throwing" for a reason. Can I guarantee 5 -10 mph for everyone who does it? No, I can't based on my limited experience. Has it improved every guy that has ever done it? In my case, it does have a 100% success rate, but again, this shouldn't be a surprise when you're throwing 2 hours a day every day.
-JJA
Registered User
You called it "voodoo".
If you wish to share some "facts", to back up your claim to as why it is "voodoo"....we're all listening.
Since I never used the word "ignorant", I feel no need or reason, to even respond to your little "red herring" there.
How about we just stick with the "facts"....and you share with us all that the program entails, and prove to us why it is not of benefit to a player, so the "99%ers" have something more than "voodoo" to decide the merits, or lack there of, of a long toss program?
Unless you're scared....
Everyone? Seems to me that only one person intentionally or unintentionally misinterpreted a word, so he could have something else to supposedly expose as "voodoo".You're not fooling anyone with that. Everyone knows what it means, and what's implied.
If "everyone knows what it means, and what's implied", then I don't think a scout would use them both in the same sentence, to mean two different things....
Nor would a NAIA pitching coach...
Maybe there's really only a 1% of readers here that don't understand that "velocity" and "arm strength" aren't the same thing.
My son lifts weights every day to also "strengthen his arm", would 99.9999% of the dads reading here interpret that to mean that that's going to also increase his velocity?
Last edited by mudvnine; 05-09-2012 at 11:23 AM. Reason: Responded to additions of previous post...
In memory of "Catchingcoach" - Dave Weaver: February 28, 1955 - June 17, 2011
Registered User
would the pitcher get the same gains if he was throwing the same amount of full intensity pitches off the mound? I don't know why LT would make any difference. of course LT does increase speed but this is because it strengthens the arm.
@song
yeah the motion is different but still it increases arm strength. doesn't more arm strength create more pitching velocity? after all while the lower body and the launch angle of LT is different the arm motion is similar. and the arm is what generates velocity (of course the lower body helps powering the arm but in the end arm speed is the most important factor).
Last edited by dominik; 05-09-2012 at 11:23 AM.
I think walks are overrated unless you can run. If you get a walk and put the pitcher in a stretch, that helps, but the guy who walks and can’t run, most of the time he’s clogging up the bases for somebody who can run. – Dusty Baker.
Registered User
Dom,
What I think fail to watch, is the throwing mechanics and the comparative distances of players during long toss....
The second to smallest player on our team this year, is the kid that can long toss the farthest, and he happens to have the most velocity from the mound.
The biggest/tallest kid we have on the team, tosses the farthest, behind the above mentioned player, but does so with completely different mechanics. In fact, he only became the second farthest tosser, after we changed his throwing mechanics, because he came to us with shoulder problems, even before our first practice.
The "smaller" player has a "looseness" and better timed arm action than does the "bigger" player. One lets his arm "flow" and throws "sequentially" with his body, where as the other guy basically "chucks the ball", with his hips, shoulders, and arm as one unit (not exactly the case, but the best way I can describe it).
Long toss also helped our catcher develop a better sense of timing with his body/arm action....that in the last three games of the season, he threw out five base stealers at second, where in the previous games he caught he threw out none....even though his long toss mechanics and throwing mechanics from behind the plate are obviously, completely different.
He basically just sped up his body/arm/timing mechanics with a different handset when behind the plate, then what he did when he slowed things down and long tossed in practice and pre-game.
This is why I have a hard time with guys poo-pooing it without evidence that they understand how to teach it correctly.....and no, it's not just going back deeper and deeper, and seeing how far you can throw the dang ball, as some seem to think it is.
In memory of "Catchingcoach" - Dave Weaver: February 28, 1955 - June 17, 2011
Registered User
That's an interesting question of which I don't have the answer. My (limited) experience has been that pitchers who throw a lot benefit less velocity-wise from long toss than guys who don't throw a lot, which of course should be intuitively true. I believe Jaeger would argue that the benefits of his long toss program is that you can do the program without in a way that avoids adversely stressing the arm. I have to say that was the biggest shock for me, that he had guys going maximum distance for 20 minutes minimum, working to upwards of one hour. That sounds crazy as few pitchers I know throw one hour off a mound at full velocity. I'll ask that directly next time I chat with him. It's a good question.
-JJA
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
Bookmarks