Difference between a great hitter and a great offensive player

[fenrir]

For example, nearly everyone considers Tony Gwynn a great hitter. However, someone like Jim Thome is never called a great hitter, despite his excellent power and ability to get on base. So I ask, does that make him a great "offensive player" and not a great "hitter"? Is there a difference between a great "hitter", and a great "offensive player"? Who would you rather have at the plate, someone like Jim Thome, or someone like Tony Gwynn?

[Honus Wagner Rules]

To me a great "offensive player" is a player like Rickey Henderson in his prime or Joe Morgan circa 1975-76 or the early 1990's version of Barry Bonds. This type of player hits for average, hits for power, draws lots of walks, and steals lots of bases at a very high success.

[Joltin' Joe]

However, someone like Jim Thome is never called a great hitter

I don't know too many people that would not consider Thome to be a great hitter.

[fenrir]

I don't know too many people that would not consider Thome to be a great hitter.

Honestly, I've rarely heard anyone call Thome a great hitter, and in general he's not considered at the level of someone like Tony Gwynn, though he's probably been more valuable offensively. Mark Mcgwire is another example (ignoring steroids). I don't think he was ever thought of as a "Great hitter", but most certainly a great "offensive player".

[fenrir]

To me a great "offensive player" is a player like Rickey Henderson in his prime or Joe Morgan circa 1975-76 or the early 1990's version of Barry Bonds. This type of player hits for average, hits for power, draws lots of walks, and steals lots of bases at a very high success.

Would you consider someone like Mark Mcgwire a "great hitter", or a great "offensive player"? Or neither?

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Would you consider someone like Mark Mcgwire a "great hitter", or a great "offensive player"? Or neither?

I think traditionally the term "great hitter" or "pure hitter" was used to describe hitters with high batting average whether they hit for power or whether they draw walks or not. That is Tony Gwynn to a tee. When I was a kid Rod Carew was often called the best pure hitter in the AL. Mark McGwire is closer to "great offensive player" than "great hitter" IMO.

[Jackaroo Dave]

I think traditionally the term "great hitter" or "pure hitter" was used to describe hitters with high batting average whether they hit for power or whether they draw walks or not. That is Tony Gwynn to a tee. When I was a kid Rod Carew was often called the best pure hitter in the AL. Mark McGwire is closer to "great offensive player" than "great hitter" IMO.

That distinction is reflected in the language. We have long-standing, commonplace distinguishing terms, 'slugger' and 'power hitter' for batters whose strong suit is power, but I can think of nothing comparable for the high-average specialist. The default image of a 'hitter' is someone with a high BA.

[willshad]

I think for the most part, a 'great hitter' is defined by batting average. If he can hit for average and also add power, then he is an even greater hitter. When we add walks and steals to the equation, it becomes more of an 'offensive player' thing.

A guy who hits for a great average, but with not much in the way of power, walks, or steals, can be considered a great hitter (think Gwynn or Mauer), but a guy who doesn't hit for average, but does everything else will not be considered one (think Jim Wynn).

I don't think anyone ever called Rickey Henderson a 'great hitter'.

[dominik]

I think for the most part, a 'great hitter' is defined by batting average. If he can hit for average and also add power, then he is an even greater hitter. When we add walks and steals to the equation, it becomes more of an 'offensive player' thing.

A guy who hits for a great average, but with not much in the way of power, walks, or steals, can be considered a great hitter (think Gwynn or Mauer), but a guy who doesn't hit for average, but does everything else will not be considered one (think Jim Wynn).

I don't think anyone ever called Rickey Henderson a 'great hitter'.

yeah. the great hitter is usually attributed to a guy who can do it all: get on base, hit for power and high average. guys like cabrera, pujols, gehrig, ruth, williams are such guys. those guys are challenging the triple crown.

and then there are those who are "just" great sluggers. this guy is only hitting .240-.280 but might walk a lot and hit a lot of HRs. examples are mcgwire, killebrew or reggie jackson.

Most guys would prefer having the triple crown guy like ruth, williams or cabrera because there is a higher chance he gets a hit. but the pure slugger is ver dangerous too.

[GiambiJuice]

Another example I've used before is Ichiro Suzuki vs. Bobby Abreu. 99% of people would tell you that Ichiro is the better hitter, but Bobby Abreu was clearly a better offensive player for most of his career.

[dominik]

I would not call a high average hitter that does nothing else a great hitter. But I would not call the .250 hitter that jacks 50 a great hitter either. They are still effective but to be really great you need to do it all (power,average, walk).

We are always talking about high average, low walks vs the opposite but the real great hitters are not (prime) Adam Dunn types. They hit for power, walk AND hit for average.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Then you have the phrase "professional hitter" which I detest. Managers and GM's always use this phrase to describe a hitter that hits for a BA but doesn't walk or hit for power. Freddy Sanchez is a classic example of the "professional hitter".

[GiambiJuice]

Then you have the phrase "professional hitter" which I detest. Managers and GM's always use this phrase to describe a hitter that hits for a BA but doesn't walk or hit for power. Freddy Sanchez is a classic example of the "professional hitter".

Haha, I totally agree.

Who would you put in the 'Professional Hitters'" Hall of Fame? (if such a thing existed)


Some candidates that come to mind:

Freddy Sanchez
Mark Grudzielanek
Sean Casey
Randy Winn
Darin Erstad
David DeJesus

[Honus Wagner Rules]

Haha, I totally agree.

Who would you put in the 'Professional Hitters'" Hall of Fame? (if such a thing existed)


Some candidates that come to mind:

Freddy Sanchez
Mark Grudzielanek
Sean Casey
Randy Winn
Darin Erstad
David DeJesus

Hahahaha! Hmmmmm...A good list. I think Matt Stairs was sometimes referred to a "professional hitter" which was odd because Stairs didn't hit for a high BA, drew walks, and hit for power. Stair is the anti-professional hitter!

[Matthew C.]

Semantics. Who would I rather have? Whichever produced the most runs created, regardless of how.

[dominik]

Then you have the phrase "professional hitter" which I detest. Managers and GM's always use this phrase to describe a hitter that hits for a BA but doesn't walk or hit for power. Freddy Sanchez is a classic example of the "professional hitter".

yeah. Even worse it is when you hear "he is a gamer". Unfortunately there are still managers who like to sign those players. he might suck but who cares since he plays hard and is a great clubhouse guy

[GiambiJuice]

yeah. Even worse it is when you hear "he is a gamer". Unfortunately there are still managers who like to sign those players. he might suck but who cares since he plays hard and is a great clubhouse guy

And don't forget the #1 defining characteristic of a "gamer": He's white.

[Honus Wagner Rules]

yeah. Even worse it is when you hear "he is a gamer". Unfortunately there are still managers who like to sign those players. he might suck but who cares since he plays hard and is a great clubhouse guy

You understand my pain as a Giants fan! Every time Giants GM Brian Sabean signs an aging unproductive ball player he will envoke "professional hitter", "proven veteran", "proven winner", and the "gamer".

[GiambiJuice]

You understand my pain as a Giants fan! Every time Giants GM Brian Sabean signs an aging unproductive ball player he will envoke "professional hitter", "proven veteran", "proven winner", and the "gamer".

Come on, you don't think Aaron Rowand was worth $60 million? Just his grittiness alone made that contract a bargain.

[willshad]

I would not call a high average hitter that does nothing else a great hitter. But I would not call the .250 hitter that jacks 50 a great hitter either. They are still effective but to be really great you need to do it all (power,average, walk).

We are always talking about high average, low walks vs the opposite but the real great hitters are not (prime) Adam Dunn types. They hit for power, walk AND hit for average.

I think walks are not necessary. You can certainly be a great hitter without drawing a lot of walks. To me, Vlad Guerrero is a better 'hitter' than someone like Jim Thome, although Thome may be more 'valuable'. I'm just more impressed by batting .320 than I am by batting .280.

[willshad]

I would not call a high average hitter that does nothing else a great hitter. But I would not call the .250 hitter that jacks 50 a great hitter either. They are still effective but to be really great you need to do it all (power,average, walk).

We are always talking about high average, low walks vs the opposite but the real great hitters are not (prime) Adam Dunn types. They hit for power, walk AND hit for average.

So you would not call Tony Gwynn circa 1993-1997 a 'great hitter'? He did not have power, didn't draw walks, and didn't get steals. If you can get enough singles, it can compensate for everything else.

[csh19792001]

For example, nearly everyone considers Tony Gwynn a great hitter. However, someone like Jim Thome is never called a great hitter, despite his excellent power and ability to get on base.

Art/aesthetics vs. science/math.

A great "offensive player" is a statistical (now sabermetric) construct that changes over time. It is more quantifiable than "great hitter", which doesn't fit neatly into quantitative models. Adam Dunn might have been a "great offensive player" for 4 years, but he never remotely resembled a great baseball player, nor was he ever a great hitter, in the opinion of most. Rather, he was a hulking hack, opportunist, monolith, and a product of his particular instantiation.

That's one of the main distinctions, IMO.

[fenrir]

I think walks are not necessary. You can certainly be a great hitter without drawing a lot of walks. To me, Vlad Guerrero is a better 'hitter' than someone like Jim Thome, although Thome may be more 'valuable'. I'm just more impressed by batting .320 than I am by batting .280.

I agree that someone like Vlad is a better hitter than Thome, but as you said he's arguably less "valuable". So I ask you, would you prefer to have a Vlad Guerrero at the plate or a Jim Thome?